For aik: Why I Am No Longer a Christian

[TABA]

Christian visitor @aikhas expressed interest in why I - and others - left Christianity and no longer believe in its god.  This thread is for me to lay out my reasons for rejecting Christianity and for aik to respond.  I will set up a parallel peanut gallery where apostates and believers alike can comment without breaking the flow of whatever dialog develops between me and aik.  
 

I am going to present four main reasons why I believe Christianity is untrue and its god does not exist.  I would like to tease out each one in turn with our Christian guest before moving on to the next.

 

I hope that aik and I can proceed with respect for each other as individual humans, as two men sincerely doing the best we can in this world, even while accepting the religious gulf that now separates us.

 

As a preview, here are the topics that I plan to present for discussion:

 

The Problem of Evil and Suffering: why I believe the world as it is exists is not compatible with there being an all-powerful, loving god resembling the God of the Bible

 

The Hiddenness of God: in spite of many clear promises in the Bible, and in contrast to the stories told in scripture, nowadays God fails to show up in any demonstrable way, even when begged by people of faith to provide guidance.  
 

The Changing Nature of God, Satan and the afterlife in the Old Testament and after, before the time of Christ, showing how the theology changed even though God supposedly does not.

 

The Changing Concept of the Messiah, from the Old Testament through the Gospels to modern mainstream Christianity, which shows how the expected and promised events failed to occur, and how Christianity conducted damage control in response.  
 

As I previously mentioned to aik, and I know he agrees, the quality of a conversation is more important than how briskly it proceeds.  We are both busy men with jobs and families, and hopefully other interests besides debating theology.  The Christmas season is rapidly approaching in the Western calendar, and not far behind in the Eastern one.  The Winter Solstice is at hand here in the north.  I hope everybody reading this, whether Western, Eastern, Christian, atheist, agnostic or pagan, experiences some of the peace and beauty that for me are hallmarks of the season.

 

@Aik, feel free to make an opening statement of your own, or if you prefer, I will proceed shortly with my first argument.

 

Best Regards to All,

TABA

 

[aik]

Hello TABA.

 

Good start. Thank you for invitation. It is a pleasure to have a conversation with you here. Of course we understand that we disagree on the very issue, that is why we are here, and the conversation will flow through disagreement and argumentations and so on. But on the base of it I wish to put love and respect. Here I will tell you and others that believing in Christ is not one of the religions of the world, but it is the life itself. Also I hope to reach the issues of powerful action of the grace in a believers life. But for the start I choose a discussion of the matter of a sin, as I understand, people here believe that there is no definition like sin, it is a fiction. So if you think so, that it is a fiction, let us start with it. 

 

As a preface I want to kindly ask you to tell us, what made you to think that you were a christian? I mean why did you think that yoiu were a christian believer? May I start with such a question as long as we are on an ex-c platform?

 

My question comes out of a simple reason. I saw in my life christians that were not so actually, and even those who attend churches, some of them do not even understand what the power of salvation is. Some people also are baptised in the name of Jesus or Trinity, but they are far from salvation. Some people are sincere and true in their following Jesus. It happens because of wrong leaders, misunderstanding of repentence, ignorance of the nature of a sin, it also can happen because a man fell in love with a girl in a church and he decided to enter the church to get married. It may happen also because in some places a man will have more respect if others know that he is a believer, and such a man enters a church just for fame. In some other places the situation is different, there can be persecutions for believing in Jesus. Some people enter a church for the hope of improving his wealth, to earn more money, to have a good healt etc. 

 

So we see this is happening. We live among this. But if we see that in the church one can be dishonest it does not mean that everyone there is dishonest. If one is a hypocrite, he calls the name of Jesus Christ and does sin, it does not mean that there is no true believer in the church. I know many brothers and sisters of mine, who are very jealous for Christ, or you use the word zeal, they lay down there time, efforts, money to serve Jesus. Even when I used to refuse do help somebody in such situations, they will never do it. I saw it and I see it. Both negative and positive situations have their reasons, spiritual reasons.

 

So this is a discription of the reason why i asked you about your christianity. What did move you to become a christian?

[TABA]

On 12/22/2022 at 4:53 AM, aik said:

As a preface I want to kindly ask you to tell us, what made you to think that you were a christian? I mean why did you think that yoiu were a christian believer? May I start with such a question as long as we are on an ex-c platform?

I get the impression you have no intention in discussing the subjects I am bringing up, but maybe I’m wrong.  Even though you have immediately changed the subject, I will briefly answer your question…

 

I was baptized in the Catholic Church as an infant.  I was raised in a family and a society where belief in the god of the Bible was taken for granted.  To not believe would have been almost unimaginable.  In my twenties I became less devout but still considered myself a believer.  Then through some friends, I developed an interest in the Bible, started to study, and recommitted my life to Jesus as my savior.  At the age of 29 I was baptized by immersion for the forgiveness of sins in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  
 

So much for me.  As for you, it seems clear that you came here to win some of us back to Jesus.  But you also seem convinced that none of us was ever actually Christian: we just thought we were.  So the word “back” might be inappropriate.  
 

For the life of me, I can’t see why you think we - or anybody - would be interested in what you are offering.  We experienced Christianity, we eventually became convinced it was literally untrue, and we renounced our former faith.  Now you want us to ignore all the problems we have seen with the belief system and somehow just become Christians.  But we were sure we were Christians before, sure we were saved, so how could we ever be sure this time around?  It seem we have to literally become you, aik, to be sure.  Can you see why nobody is interested?  With all due respect aik, you are an awful evangelist, an awful witness for the gospel.  Which suits us just fine.  Our goal is to help people gain confidence in their rejection of Christianity.  We have nothing to fear from you. 

[TABA]

1 hour ago, TABA said:

With all due respect aik, you are an awful evangelist, an awful witness for the gospel.

I should admit that some people, elsewhere, may be impressed by your message that “Jesus saved me and made me happy.  How do I know? I just know”.

But those people are not here.  You are targeting the wrong audience with your message, with the predictable lack of success.  

[aik]

Merry Christmas TABA.

 

I don't think you were a false christian. I am just checking it out to be sure if it is so, and know what to speak about. Because your christian experience in major part will dictate what to speak about and how deep to get in.

 

You story has many points similar to my life. So we have many common things. But please let me a little bit answer you. Thank you for your honesty. I appreciate it. I understand your position, I agree with your way of thinking about the situation generally. And yes, I agree, I am an awful evangelist. It is who I am, I know it. 

 

Well, what for the topic, we are just getting started, that is why we are trying to find "touch points", as we say here. 

 

Best regards.

[TABA]

Merry Christmas, to you aik, whether you celebrate it now or according to the Julian calendar.  
 

I will resume this dialog in a day or two.

[TABA]

On 12/20/2022 at 8:43 AM, TABA said:

As a preview, here are the topics that I plan to present for discussion:

 

The Problem of Evil and Suffering: why I believe the world as it is exists is not compatible with there being an all-powerful, loving god resembling the God of the Bible

So, @aik, it’s time to talk about the first of my reasons for not believing in Christianity or its god. 
 

The fact that the god of the Bible and of Christianity is supposedly all-powerful and loving has troubled believers for millennia, and even the greatest theologians have struggled with the dilemma.  
 

No person older than a toddler can escape the fact that suffering is part of life for every living thing.  Some creatures are luckier than others.  But many humans and animals alike experience almost nothing but suffering for their entire lives.  Human babies are born with deformities and organ defects that ensure their lives are short and filled with pain and distress.  Baby antelopes are torn to pieces almost as soon as they can stand.  Or people and animals endure many years or even decades of suffering.  And even those lucky enough to live long, healthy lives spend the twilight of their years enduring physical and mental anguish.   
 

As if there’s not enough suffering from diseases and predators, the Earth’s weather systems and tectonic plates dole out vast amounts of misery also.  Earthquakes, volcanoes, hurricanes, floods and droughts are commonplace. The Indian Ocean tsunami of 2004 killed more than 200,000 people in a single day.  
 

And of course, in addition to all these natural sources of suffering, human beings have inflicted untold suffering on each other, from bar-room knife fights to continent-wide genocide.

 

How can so much suffering be possible in a world governed by a loving and all-powerful god?  Various answers have been attempted over the centuries, some better than others, but I don’t find any to be plausible at the end of the day.  Maybe there is a deity who loves us but has only limited power.  Maybe there is an indifferent god who is content to observe suffering like a scientist observing an experiment. But a loving, all-powerful god? No.

 

I hope @aik or some other Christian will take up this topic and explain why they can still believe in a loving, omnipotent god in the face of all the pain and suffering that exists in this world.  

[TABA]

Hi @aik, Happy New Year to you!  Do you observe Christmas this week like most people in Russia, per the Eastern calendar?

 

Maybe you haven’t responded to my comments about the problem of suffering because you’ve been taking time to enjoy these holidays.  That’s OK, I can wait a few more days.  I hope to hear from you here soon!

[aik]

On 1/5/2023 at 5:48 AM, TABA said:

Hi @aik, Happy New Year to you!  Do you observe Christmas this week like most people in Russia, per the Eastern calendar?

 

Maybe you haven’t responded to my comments about the problem of suffering because you’ve been taking time to enjoy these holidays.  That’s OK, I can wait a few more days.  I hope to hear from you here soon!

Hello TABA ,

 

Thank you for understanding. You are right about my holidays. 

[aik]

On 12/29/2022 at 2:28 AM, TABA said:

So, @aik, it’s time to talk about the first of my reasons for not believing in Christianity or its god. 
 

The fact that the god of the Bible and of Christianity is supposedly all-powerful and loving has troubled believers for millennia, and even the greatest theologians have struggled with the dilemma.  
 

No person older than a toddler can escape the fact that suffering is part of life for every living thing.  Some creatures are luckier than others.  But many humans and animals alike experience almost nothing but suffering for their entire lives.  Human babies are born with deformities and organ defects that ensure their lives are short and filled with pain and distress.  Baby antelopes are torn to pieces almost as soon as they can stand.  Or people and animals endure many years or even decades of suffering.  And even those lucky enough to live long, healthy lives spend the twilight of their years enduring physical and mental anguish.   
 

As if there’s not enough suffering from diseases and predators, the Earth’s weather systems and tectonic plates dole out vast amounts of misery also.  Earthquakes, volcanoes, hurricanes, floods and droughts are commonplace. The Indian Ocean tsunami of 2004 killed more than 200,000 people in a single day.  
 

And of course, in addition to all these natural sources of suffering, human beings have inflicted untold suffering on each other, from bar-room knife fights to continent-wide genocide.

 

How can so much suffering be possible in a world governed by a loving and all-powerful god?  Various answers have been attempted over the centuries, some better than others, but I don’t find any to be plausible at the end of the day.  Maybe there is a deity who loves us but has only limited power.  Maybe there is an indifferent god who is content to observe suffering like a scientist observing an experiment. But a loving, all-powerful god? No.

 

I hope @aik or some other Christian will take up this topic and explain why they can still believe in a loving, omnipotent god in the face of all the pain and suffering that exists in this world.  

Dear TABA,

 

If you are sincere in your question, and you really cannot understand how does this happen in the world created by God, then you have a chance to find it out and to change your mind about the God our Saviour.  But if you are asking this question just trying to catch me, you will gain nothing from it.

 

Let us see what Jesus told to us about those past, present and future sufferings.

 

Luke chapter 17.

22Then He said to the disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23People will tell you, ‘Look, there He is!’ or ‘Look, here He is!’ Do not go out or chase after them. 24For just as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other, so will be the Son of Man in His day. 25But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

26Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

28It was the same in the days of Lot: People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

 

Here we see that Jesus speaks about sufferings in the past. I will not interpret here the details, no need for that, I just want to point that Jesus noticed that there were sufferings in the past.

 

Luke chapter 13.

1At that time some of those present told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2To this He replied, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered this fate? 3No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who were killed when the tower of Siloam collapsed on them: Do you think that they were more sinful than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

 

Here Jesus speaks about the present events, events that happened on days of Jesus. Again I am not interpreting what He meant about repentance and other details. I just want to point that He spoke about sufferings of people of His days. 

 

Matthew chapter 24 (Mark 13,, Luke 21)

6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, 11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.

12Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. 13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

 

Here Jesus speaks about sufferings in the future. 

 

What I am trying to say by this is that Jesus Himself knowing about existence of sufferings in the world had no problem telling the people about the Gospel of salvation and love of the Father the God. 

 

I am not sure about the reason of your question, but answering it I will ask you to refer to the reason of the sufferings according to the Bible, whether you are trying to find the answer from a christian, it means you are looking for the answer from God, who speaks to us in the Bible. Originally sufferings had no place in the Garden, but also God did not create a sin in the Garden or in a man. It means that God did not give a man all this negative stuff, which is a sin and sufferings. The Bible tells us that a man was created in righteousness. Then Adam sinned and his sufferings started. He was exciled from the Garden, he started to work hard, and such work has its consequences, i.e. illness, tiredness, need for more food, desires, and even it flows into greed etc. The greed causes fights, wars. 

 

For example a man here in my city killed another man, a brother of my father's friend, for having 50 rubles from him. A knife hit, just for 50 rubles. Was that God telling him to do so? 

 

Greed can cause wars. No comments.

 

What are you trying to prove?

I am confused if you do not know all this things from the Bible. Therefore I am not sure about the reason of your question. 

 

But let me show you that God saves from sufferings and among sufferings. 

 

Haven't you ever read testimony of Demos Shakarian? He tells about his family running from the future armenian genocide which happened in 1915. The story is that in the middle of the 19th century there was a russian kid profecying about massacres in that region in Turkey, but he said that you still have time, it will happen later. Then after almost 50 years or about this kid already grown up, he came to that very place and he received the prophecy repeatedly, with the words that time is near. People in the village where Demos' family lived, they knew about this saying. Some people believed and flee, they left there villages and moved to america. Demos was among them. And in a few years after these events the genocide happened. 1,5 million people were killed. But Demos says that the people around them were laughing at them about there travel to america, they sold there property, houses, and replaced among the very calm peaceful and a good day. (If I am wrong in details please excuse me).

 

God warned to His people about the tragedy that evil people planned against others. Whoever believed were saved. This is the philosophy of the Bible. That people had no time for "laboratory tests" of Gods words. They had no time for getting objective evidences from that russian preacher. 

 

If saying generally, yes sufferings are a part of God's judgement of the world for their evil. Yes, the Creator has the right to judge His creation. We are not anarchists, aren't we? Maybe you say how God judges and at the same time I say that sufferings come out from evil? Fair question. Shortly saying, as I understand the Bible, the reason of sufferings is the sin, but God lets that sufferings to be happened for the reason of salvation from that sin. It is very generally. Of course we can have individual situations. 

 

Mu cousin had a disease from which doctors were unable to heal him. Well about 30 years ago his mother took him and brought to a worship ministry of that days, that we had in my country. His mother says that she had a motivation from the Holy Spirit, and she took him that day to the worship ministry for praying about his healing. And that day he was healed. It happened for the glory of God in my cousin's eyes first of all. 

 

God healed my mother also from a disease that doctors were unable to heal. Another story.

 

I mean that sufferings by some reason became a part of our life, but God saves among that sufferings. 

 

Some people, americans, were killed in arabic countries for their believing in Christ, they suffered willfully. They decided to suffer keeping faith rather than avoid from death. We have more valuable things in our lives than our health and life in a body.  Among wars mothers sacrificed there bodies to save their children. 

 

In 1988 December 7, earthquake in Armenia. We lost 25,000 people in a few seconds. But there were testimonies how God saved some believing people among that terrible situation. In this earthquake a whole village fell underground. It was completely lost. But in another village 300 people who were believers, were saved.

 

One of the believers was praying at that time, and the Spirit told him to go out of the home. He left his praying and went out and the house fell. 

Another one went out from a multiappartment building to go for some job, and he found out that he forgot his keys. He asked his children to bring him his keys. And somehow (i do not remember details, but in his interview he said that) his whole family was out of the building at the very time of the earthquake. He and his family was saved. 

 

David Wilkerson told how 30 people of his church were saved at the day of 9/11. All of them worked in that building. But all of them by some reason were not at there workplaces at that time of an attack.

 

I am not saying that believers do not die. Of course not. But I say that there are reasons for everything in this world. Very often we do not know the reasons. 

 

My daughter came close to me and I explained what I was doing here, and she asked to right this verse for you:

16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

Well only this verse shows that God decided to accept suffering by Himself to save the people. It shows that for God sufferings have their meaning. In case of Jesus that meaning is our salvation from our sins! Salvation not from diseases or deaths, but from sins, which is much more important for a man. 

 

 

This is shortly answering your question. 

 

Watch Nick Vujicic, Lizzie Velasquez. These are people born with diseases but very alive!

 

[aik]

On 12/23/2022 at 4:52 PM, TABA said:

I was baptized in the Catholic Church as an infant.  I was raised in a family and a society where belief in the god of the Bible was taken for granted.  To not believe would have been almost unimaginable.  In my twenties I became less devout but still considered myself a believer.  Then through some friends, I developed an interest in the Bible, started to study, and recommitted my life to Jesus as my savior.  At the age of 29 I was baptized by immersion for the forgiveness of sins in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  

In reply to you here:

 

I was born in Armenia. I am Armenian. I was raised in a family that was very far from a religion, they lived among communistic ideology. Though we were used to consider ourselves christians,, because even a strong communistic atheistic ideology could not make many of us refuse to call ourselves christians. Even evil people among armenians they call themselves to be christians. Well, we are not judging them. Just a fact. In my twenties I lived in a sinful life, though I thought i was a christian. But in my background I had my mother converted in 1990 through a miracle. and I attended church classes when I was a kid. Then at the age of 29 I felt need of Jesus in my life, and decided at last to choose my way in my life, with Jesus or continuing to live without Him. I finally decided to grant my life into hands of Jesus, though I thought that faith is not what I could keep or have. But I trusted Jesus in this matter. I was 29 when repented. Jesus never lied to me in what He had promised to me up till now. I was also baptized by immersion for the forgiveness of sins in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. And then I was baptised with the Holy Spirit. From that time the word Lord obtained a meaning for me. 

[TABA]

Hi aik, good to hear back from you again.  I was going to respond this evening but am very tired from work.  I’m gonna sit by the fire and watch football.  I’ll respond very soon!  

[aik]

2 hours ago, TABA said:

Hi aik, good to hear back from you again.  I was going to respond this evening but am very tired from work.  I’m gonna sit by the fire and watch football.  I’ll respond very soon!  

Dear TABA, 

 

Pleasure to hear from you too.   don't worry about your quick answer. Let us enjoy in this conversation, sharing our views on life with love, where I believe Jesus will do His great work. 

 

Take care of yourself. 

[TABA]

 

Hi @aik, I had planned on responding sooner, but right now my job is taking up a lot of my mental energy, and it probably will for another couple of weeks.  But a response to your post from January 7th is overdue, so here goes...

 

On 1/7/2023 at 3:16 AM, aik said:

Here we see that Jesus speaks about sufferings in the past. I will not interpret here the details, no need for that, I just want to point that Jesus noticed that there were sufferings in the past.

 

On 1/7/2023 at 3:16 AM, aik said:

Here Jesus speaks about the present events, events that happened on days of Jesus. Again I am not interpreting what He meant about repentance and other details. I just want to point that He spoke about sufferings of people of His days. 

 

On 1/7/2023 at 3:16 AM, aik said:

Here Jesus speaks about sufferings in the future. 

 

What I am trying to say by this is that Jesus Himself knowing about existence of sufferings in the world had no problem telling the people about the Gospel of salvation and love of the Father the God. 

 

The fact that the Bible shows Jesus as being aware of suffering past, present and future, while also preaching God's love does not solve the problem.  The problem is expressed in this quote attributed to the Greek philosopher Epicurus:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

 

I will address later why I think Jesus thought he was the answer to suffering and why he failed to end it, but first I want to respond to this:

 

On 1/7/2023 at 3:16 AM, aik said:

Originally sufferings had no place in the Garden, but also God did not create a sin in the Garden or in a man. It means that God did not give a man all this negative stuff, which is a sin and sufferings. The Bible tells us that a man was created in righteousness. Then Adam sinned and his sufferings started.

 

You are saying that there was no suffering before Adam sinned in the garden.  Are you claiming that animals, for example, never suffered before that event?  The scientific evidence is very clear that animals such as carnivorous dinosaurs existed on this planet for hundreds of millions of years before humans appeared.  Fossilized remains record the deaths of animals in floods and tar-pits, and from volcanic eruptions and asteroid strikes, long before any mammals appeared on Earth, let alone human mammals.  Are you disputing this?  Are you saying that animals did not pre-date humans on this planet?  Or are you saying that the suffering of animals past and present is of no concern to God?  

[aik]

On 1/17/2023 at 4:41 AM, TABA said:

The problem is expressed in this quote attributed to the Greek philosopher Epicurus:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God

The problem is what you call evil. 

[TABA]

7 hours ago, aik said:

The problem is what you call evil. 

I was hoping for a more substantial response than that.  I trust you will follow up with one.  

[aik]

1 hour ago, TABA said:

I was hoping for a more substantial response than that.  I trust you will follow up with one.  

You are right. But we should first be sure that we understand each other and speak using same definitions. Otherwise we will fail to come to an agreement. 

 

This should be considered not as my answer but as an interim question to make things clear.

 

Do you agree?

[TABA]

I agree we should try to understand each other and try to agree on some definitions.  We may not succeed, but we can try, yes.  

[TABA]

So how about we start with a proposed definition of Suffering, the theme of my first point in this discussion.  It would be much harder for you and I to agree on a definition for Evil, so let’s set that aside, shall we?
 

A good definition of Suffering might be the experience of physical pain or mental distress by a living being.  

[aik]

6 minutes ago, TABA said:

So how about we start with a proposed definition of Suffering, the theme of my first point in this discussion.  It would be much harder for you and I to agree on a definition for Evil, so let’s set that aside, shall we?
 

A good definition of Suffering might be the experience of physical pain or mental distress by a living being.  

That's  good Taba. Suffering is clear in the context of our conversation. But Epicurus words are telling us about evil. So i have to put it aside too. 

 

I am going back to your question about millions of years. I believe that science has its hypothetical theory about origin of things. But we cannot call it scientific evidence, because actual evidence lead us not to their conclusions. If yhey find an artefact and try to find out how old it is, and being an atheist they pass the flood by, and they do not take into account the flood, of course they will have wrong outcome. The rssult will differ from what the creationist scientists have. Like the creationist scientists have many unanswered questions, in the same way evolutionists have. And more than this. The evolutionists are unable to answer some questions because they have to reject flood and creation because of their belief. So if you ask me do i believe in theory of evolution and big bang or creation by god, my answer is god. It was my answer even when i was an unbeliever. Because creation is obvious to me rather than evolution,s fake. 

 

Based on this i refuse to oppose science to my belief. Because science in no way is opposite to god. The only thing we should take into account, that science is not about salvation, judgement, the origin and the end of days. It is only discovery of what the creator has already done for our better quality of life. 

 

I oppose atheism to god. Atheism is a fake religion, theory, doctrine, call it whatever you want.

 

Yes, i am saying that there was not suffering before the original sin.

[TABA]

 

First of all @aik, I am sorry for not responding sooner!  The past few weeks have been some of the busiest ever for me, both at work and at home.

 

On 1/22/2023 at 11:24 AM, aik said:

Suffering is clear in the context of our conversation. But Epicurus words are telling us about evil. So i have to put it aside too. 

 

In that case, I can restate Epicurus's argument as my own:  

“Is God willing to prevent suffering, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh suffering?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

 

On 1/22/2023 at 11:24 AM, aik said:

But we cannot call it scientific evidence, because actual evidence lead us not to their conclusions. If they find an artefact and try to find out how old it is, and being an atheist they pass the flood by, and they do not take into account the flood, of course they will have wrong outcome. The result will differ from what the creationist scientists have.

 

Scientists do not reject the idea of a global flood because they are atheists, but because there is no evidence that anything approaching a global flood has ever happened.  Just to mention one convincing argument against it, the quantity of water required to cover every land mass, above the height of even the Himalayas would be immense, and where did that staggering amount of water go to?  It seems to me that it is the "creationist scientists" who try to twist evidence to fit a conclusion they have already arrived at.

 

On 1/22/2023 at 11:24 AM, aik said:

Based on this i refuse to oppose science to my belief. Because science in no way is opposite to god. The only thing we should take into account, that science is not about salvation, judgement, the origin and the end of days. It is only discovery of what the creator has already done for our better quality of life. 

 

It seems like you are rejecting any science that conflicts with your belief.  This is known in English as "presupposition":  starting with a belief, and only accepting evidence that agrees with it.

 

On 1/22/2023 at 11:24 AM, aik said:

Yes, i am saying that there was not suffering before the original sin.

 

OK, this is the big one that I want to pursue with you.  I assume you would agree that the original sin was committed by human beings.  In your opinion, how long were there animals on this earth before humans appeared?  Was it mere days, or millions of years?  Or none of the above?  

 

[aik]

On 2/10/2023 at 2:06 AM, TABA said:

In that case, I can restate Epicurus's argument as my own:  

“Is God willing to prevent suffering, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh suffering?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

When you change the word you get a mistake. 

 

For example,

When you have a disease and go to a doctor, he can send you to a surgeon. The surgeon cuts your body, makes you to feel a painful injection, a painful cutting process (it happens that you feel sometimes), a painful recovery process, restrictions, sometimes he can roar on you just because you did wrong, and after all this you say "Thank you doctor, for your care and your kindness". If you say that this is normal, than you are a hypocrite in relation to God. 

 

Sufferings are not the same as evil. I can say, that the Bible not always equalize sufferings to evil. It depends on circumstances. That is why I say that you cannot just take out a word from Epicurus phrasing and put another one instead of it.

 

Sufferings can be a blessing sometimes. 

 

On 2/10/2023 at 2:06 AM, TABA said:

Scientists do not reject the idea of a global flood because they are atheists, but because there is no evidence that anything approaching a global flood has ever happened.  Just to mention one convincing argument against it, the quantity of water required to cover every land mass, above the height of even the Himalayas would be immense, and where did that staggering amount of water go to?  It seems to me that it is the "creationist scientists" who try to twist evidence to fit a conclusion they have already arrived at.

I heard about an opposite position. Science has its evidences for the flood, but because it happened long ago, many evidences are missing, but those which we have in our hands are enough to state that the flood happened. Of course details cannot be understood just because times were old, different, God was able to change physical laws for His purposes and so on. If You believed that God can do miracles, than you would accept that something can happen out of the bounds of your own understanding. 

 

On 2/10/2023 at 2:06 AM, TABA said:

It seems like you are rejecting any science that conflicts with your belief.  This is known in English as "presupposition":  starting with a belief, and only accepting evidence that agrees with it.

It is not the science conflicts with my beliefs, but atheistic ideology. 

 

On 2/10/2023 at 2:06 AM, TABA said:

OK, this is the big one that I want to pursue with you.  I assume you would agree that the original sin was committed by human beings.  In your opinion, how long were there animals on this earth before humans appeared?  Was it mere days, or millions of years?  Or none of the above?  

Animals were a day or a half before Adam, I don't know for sure, but it was a short time. Creation flows through first animals and then in the same day a man, and a bit later a woman. You have Genesis read, why are you asking me this?

 

Our current topic is sufferings. 

[TABA]

On 3/5/2023 at 3:38 PM, aik said:

When you have a disease and go to a doctor, he can send you to a surgeon. The surgeon cuts your body, makes you to feel a painful injection, a painful cutting process (it happens that you feel sometimes), a painful recovery process, restrictions, sometimes he can roar on you just because you did wrong, and after all this you say "Thank you doctor, for your care and your kindness". If you say that this is normal, than you are a hypocrite in relation to God. 

I am not sure what you are trying to say here.  If you mean that suffering is sometimes unavoidable in order to get better, I answer that the surgeon and anesthesiologist do everything in their power to reduce the pain.  If they could make these procedures safely painless, they would do so.  Humans, with all their flaws, work to reduce suffering.  Unlike the god of the Bible, who could do so but evidently chooses not to. 
 

On 3/5/2023 at 3:38 PM, aik said:

Sufferings can be a blessing sometimes.

Sometimes, at best.  Then why doesn’t god prevent the suffering that is not a blessing.  Like the millions who suffered in concentration camps?

 

On 3/5/2023 at 3:38 PM, aik said:

Animals were a day or a half before Adam, I don't know for sure, but it was a short time.

So you deny that animals existed and suffered from pain and disease for millions of years before humans appeared?  You are really on the fringe with this belief.  Science absolutely contradicts a literal reading of Genesis, and this includes most scientists who are Christians or theists.  
 

 

[aik]

On 3/7/2023 at 11:39 PM, TABA said:

I am not sure what you are trying to say here.  If you mean that suffering is sometimes unavoidable in order to get better, I answer that the surgeon and anesthesiologist do everything in their power to reduce the pain.  If they could make these procedures safely painless, they would do so.  Humans, with all their flaws, work to reduce suffering.  Unlike the god of the Bible, who could do so but evidently chooses not to. 

Hello TABA, I am surprised that you could not understand what I was trying to say. But it maybe because of my bad english. I will explain it again.

 

When you have a disease it is not necessary that you have a pain, it may flow without significant symptoms. But the disease may cause death. So you understand that you need a doctor to be healed. You visit him, and the doctors says that only a surgical operation can be done to help you. Such an operation starts with preparations, restrictions of food before the operation, then anesthetic injection is very painful, and the doctor does it to you, then the doctor cuts your body, sometimes you can feel pain if the injection dose was not enough. Then after the operation you start to feel pains, you cannot move freely, it is because the doctor cut you in the day before. Then you every day go for changing clothes on your wound (i do not know how to say it in english, please excuse me), and it is very painful. The doctor does it to you. But inspite of all this stuff you anyway go to the doctor and agree for an operation. Why? Because you know that the doctor will help you to get rid of a disease which leads you to death. You agree to go through all this painful procedure. Yet the doctor is considered a person who does a good thing, because he heals. He appoint a dietic programs, restrictions in food, he limits your movements to protect your body from wrong effects after an operation for example. And the doctor is the one who does it to you. Yet he is considered to do good. And I agree with it.

 

If you agree with me and you consider that the doctor does good, so why do you blame God because of sufferings? What is the reason of sufferings? If there is not a disease then there is not a reason for an operation. 

 

On 3/7/2023 at 11:39 PM, TABA said:

Sometimes, at best.  Then why doesn’t god prevent the suffering that is not a blessing.  Like the millions who suffered in concentration camps?

 

1. Sufferings, when they are sent by God, are like a surgical operation, which heals from a very dangerous disease, which is sin.

2. Sometimes a suffering is a result of my foolishness,  because mom told me to wear a coat because it was cold outside, but i was not obedient enough to do it. In the same manner here we have.

3. Sufferings can be a result of satanic plans for a man, and there are reasons why God allows it to happen.

 

Generally reasons are different, for example Jesus' sufferings, Job's sufferings, Jonah's sufferings, Sodom and Gomorrah dwellers' sufferings, Canaanites sufferings, Israelites' sufferings later, David's sufferings, Solomon's sufferings, Apostles' sufferings, so all those sufferings have different reasons. 

 

God's consideration is delivering a man or a group of people from eternal death, from hell. Sometimes God needs to deliver a man from a local suffering to make him to know that there is God and he loves him and can help him. Sometimes God needs to place a man into a jail, to make him to know that there is God who can hinder your criminal plans even if you think that nobody is able to hinder you to do your crime. Sometimes God needs to send serious sufferings to a man to cause him to repent of what he had done before, to deliver him from judgement and hell. Sometimes God needs to send sufferings to judge people for their sins. Reasons are different. God's consideration is delivering people from hell. 

 

A parent sometimes has to restrict his son to keep him away from criminal life. But when a kid gets grown, and he decides to be a criminal and live like that, so a wise parent can only hope, call, wait when the kid will change his mind, but he cannot punish him anymore. So the son if hi stays in criminal life, .... guess what happens to him.... he will be arrested, prisoned or even die. Why? because he did not obey his parent and had a logical result of his way of life. 

 

So when a sinful man lives without God, believe he in God or does not, God will judge him one day. Such man will have a suitable result of his sinful life. Ones decision to stay in sin, means to follow satan. So the satan is judged to hell. God tries his best to make a man deny his sin and be saved from hell. But who pays attention to him? 

 

So if we want to know for sure why God allowed to happen that some people got into concentration camps, we have to know their history first, individually of each person out there, we have to know who they were before God, what did they believe and how did they live and many other things. If you know this, tell me, and I will try to say to you what the Bible says in such a certain situation. 

 

On 3/7/2023 at 11:39 PM, TABA said:

So you deny that animals existed and suffered from pain and disease for millions of years before humans appeared?  You are really on the fringe with this belief.  Science absolutely contradicts a literal reading of Genesis, and this includes most scientists who are Christians or theists.  

I do deny that animals existed and suffered from pain and disease for millions of years before humans appeared. 

 

If a science contradicts Genesis, then you can bravely throw such a science into a garbage. It is not a science but a false ideology. The science has hypotheses, but not proofs of what we had in ancient history, in times before flood. We have on the earth some indicators that tells us about some details. So a scientist depended on his ideology can interpret everything in a way he wants. 

 

For example, catholics say that Mother Tereza was a sample of good woman of God. Christopher Hitchen says she was evil. But they both have the same facts. Catholics interpret the facts from their point of view, Hitchens interpret from his anti-God point of view.  It is not the problem of facts. Facts are the same, but interpretations differ. So when a scientist says that there was not a flood, it is not because they have the better facts that the christians do not have. It is because they interpret from their point of view, and the christians from their own. Science is unable to deliver a man from his sin, and it is unable to explore God. Leave it alone please. Go into a spiritual field of speech with me. 

 

 

[TABA]

I apologize to @aik and to our readers for waiting so long to make this response ...

 

On 3/17/2023 at 9:56 PM, aik said:

it is very painful. The doctor does it to you. But in spite of all this stuff you anyway go to the doctor and agree for an operation. Why? Because you know that the doctor will help you to get rid of a disease which leads you to death. You agree to go through all this painful procedure. Yet the doctor is considered a person who does a good thing, because he heals.

 

On 3/17/2023 at 9:56 PM, aik said:

If you agree with me and you consider that the doctor does good, so why do you blame God because of sufferings?

 

I have made this point before, @aik, and I will make it again:

Yes, necessary medical procedures can involve pain. But throughout history, the medical profession has succeeded in greatly reducing such pain and suffering. They do everything in their power to do so, because they realize that the pain and suffering do not contribute to the healing but are evils that can be reduced. But they are human and have limits to what they can do. A god like the one you worship does NOT have such limitations. An all-powerful, loving god could bring healing without pain if he chose to. But he is either unwilling to do so or unable to find a way to bring healing without pain.

 

On 3/17/2023 at 9:56 PM, aik said:

So if we want to know for sure why God allowed to happen that some people got into concentration camps, we have to know their history first, individually of each person out there, we have to know who they were before God, what did they believe and how did they live and many other things.

 

I understand your position is that every concentration camp victim either had it coming to them, or somehow needed to endure the suffering for some greater good. In the former case, this looks like a god taking revenge rather than extending mercy. This might be in character for the jealous god of the Old Testament, but it certainly doesn't resemble the loving message of Jesus. In the latter case, can you suggest what good might have been accomplished by the suffering of an innocent child like Anne Frank, and the many other children who suffered as she did? Was it somehow all worth it for them in the end?  Was there not a more merciful way for God to accomplish it?  Was he unable, or was he unwilling?

 

On 3/17/2023 at 9:56 PM, aik said:

I do deny that animals existed and suffered from pain and disease for millions of years before humans appeared. 

 

If a science contradicts Genesis, then you can bravely throw such a science into a garbage

 

There, dear reader, is what it is like to have one's critical faculties suppressed because of religious faith:  scientific conclusions are accepted if they are compatible with Christianity, but if they are not, they are "bravely" thrown into the garbage.  The problem, of course, is which version of religious faith do you decide to give credence to?   Jewish?  Christian?  Islamic?  Most believers never even ask themselves this question, but just adopt the faith of their parents or the society they grew up in.  That seems like a sound basis for deciding what is true, doesn't it?  

 

On 3/17/2023 at 9:56 PM, aik said:

Science is unable to deliver a man from his sin, and it is unable to explore God. Leave it alone please. Go into a spiritual field of speech with me. 

 

Science answers many questions, and will continue to answer questions old and new.  But in my opinion it does not answer the question "How should I live my life?".  For that, we have Philosophy.  For thousands of years, people have asked this and other questions, and many have proposed answers that have provided meaning to countless others.  Most of these answers require no belief in gods to find a meaningful and happy path in life.  They have the added benefit of avoiding the evils, the slaughters that have so often sprung from the certainty and the desire to "save" the world that is taught by theistic religions like Christianity.  That is what needs to be thrown into the garbage.