Peanut Gallery for “Why I am No Longer a Christian” (TABA / aik)

[◊ Weezer ◊]

And I might add, If you want to maintain your faith in your present beliefs, you need to exit this forum.  If you keep frequenting this site, and there is any since of logic in your brain, some of that logic may begin to make its way into your thinking.  You are welcome to stay here, but be mindful of what might happen.

[aik]

11 minutes ago, Weezer said:

And I might add, If you want to maintain your faith in your present beliefs, you need to exit this forum.  If you keep frequenting this site, and there is any since of logic in your brain, some of that logic may begin to make its way into your thinking.  You are welcome to stay here, but be mindful of what might happen.

From the very beginning of my presence here you try to push me out. Whenever i confess the faith, you advice me, kindly, to leave this site. Why?

 

Do you feel threatened by me? Do you think that such a crazy guy like me can harm somehow the ideology that this site bears? 

 

23 years ago i was communicating with church of christ. Ministrrs from manchester tn had their mission in our small town. I was even baptised there. I am reading now what you have sent to me. As soon as i finish i wish to have a discussion with you, if you do not mind, dear respectful man.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

15 hours ago, aik said:

Do you know what I love in Americans? Whenever we ask Americans How are you? they answer, I am all right. Whatever happens, Americans smile. Americans believe that everything will pass and the good will come. I see that it is a christian heritage in you guys. Habits stay though the faith is gone. Paradox. 

 

From aik with a big christian love to you. 

Aik,

 

This is why I like you Aik despite our religious differences. You are a very kind individual. I know you said you don't feel that you have achieved complete success in your Christian goal of sincere faith but I think you are very close if not already there. Your Christian attitude has earned my respect. Maybe you can take comfort in atleast knowing that even if no one ever accepts your invitation. It would not be a failure on your part but a result of the knowledge we have which you refuse to believe. And that is fine. I would expect no less out of a truly devoted Christian. I hope you keep coming here. The lions den needs a real Christian posting, but don't think anyone here including myself will fail to counter your arguments. So here are my thoughts on the rest of your post. 

 

1st, I don't think American resilience in the face of adversity is due to Christianity only. I can't say it doesn't play its role as over half the country still professes Christianity. Some of it may even be due to arrogance which can be dangerous. After all we do consider ourselves the most powerful nation on earth whether that is actually true or not. But we as a country have overcome everything that has been thrown at us so far and have come out on the other side victorious in most cases. When we get knocked down we have the fighting spirit of 250 years of American ancestry to draw from. We have the fighting spirit of revolutionary warriors, soldiers who fought off the British again in 1812, civil war heroes on both sides, liberated slaves, women that fought for their equal rights, (Edit: Great men and women of the World wars, and not only those that fought and served overseas but the citizens back home collecting materials and using them to keep our war machine going. Fighting the fight of FREEDOM) the heroes of the civil rights movement, most recently homosexuals that fought for years to be accepted just as a heterosexual. We are all fighters in one way or another. Maybe that is why we fight betwixt ourselves so much. But when we are hit with something as a collective we historically come together (save for the Civil war) despite our many difference to achieve whatever we need to achieve to address the problem. 

 

Americans as a people spread our ideals to the world and changed it. 

 

So yes. We smile and say we're alright. 

 

15 hours ago, aik said:

 

If we take not 70 years but 2000 years, we will see that Great Empires of the world dared to distroy the church

 

Noone is trying to destroy Christianity here Aik. Well except for muslim extremists. Everyone knows they are. But even they will be entering the same decline if they get access to modern education in those countries. And access to higher education and studies.

 

The difference here is that everyone trying to take Christianity down that you mentioned, tried to do it by brute force and oppression. The reason for the decline in christian belief largely coincides with our access to information not readily available before the advent of the internet, coupled with modern public education, and a few hundred years of scientific research. 

 

We've already gone over some of the big reasons why I stopped believing. Had I been taught only from the Bible and biblically oriented education I would have never been able to question the Christian narrative. Maybe when I was old enough and wise enough to see that the Promises of God, the promises of Jesus, and the overall persona that the Bible depicts of its God were not evident in the world. Maybe then I would begin to think critically. But in that scenario the only other sources I would be able to draw from would be other religions. 

 

While you give these examples of how all these wars were fought the past two thousand years to destroy Christianity. You have left out all the wars, bloodshed, torture, and persecutions that Christianity itself inflicted on people of other religions to rise to the top and become the dominant religion to begin with. 

 

Christianity didn't rise through peaceful,  loving, Christ like example such as what you reflect. Metaphorically Jesus stands upon a mountain of death. While Christian wars were fought against those that would destroy them it didn't stop there. Christianity stomped out other religions with a convert or die mentality. They killed those guilty of rising against them as well as innocent people that never lifted a finger against them. Jesus stands upon the bodies of the guilty but also the innocent without remorse. He stand on the bodies of women, children, the farmer, and the warrior alike. Next time you picture the blood of Jesus flowing from the holes left in his hands, you should also picture the blood of millions if not billions of people who died so he could rise.

 

Christianity is facing verifiable truth and factual knowledge. I have faith that those two things will be able to bring about the end of religious faith with the least amount of death in recorded history. In this process I hope humanity can take the good aspects and teachings left behind by all faiths and apply those teachings to the betterment of humanity. Or better yet, build off those beliefs like the golden rule, Karma, and Zen to achieve a greater and more accepting morality that will far surpass anything we have ever known. 

 

15 hours ago, aik said:

if you can manage everithing, why couldn'n you hold your wife next to you for example? Why couldn't you make her love you inspite of everything? 

 

I'm assuming this is directed at me since we've discussed my marriages. I would like to remind you that I have been divorced more than once. This most recent divorce is a result of my deconversion. The one before that was during the time I was an avid believer and preacher. I hadn't been ordained a bishop yet. But I was a fervent believer. I prayed to God nightly and even prayed for him to soften my wife's heart toward me. I didn't try to control everything myself. I tried to let God control my life and my marriage. Jesus made me the promise that anything I faithfully asked in his name that not only that would be granted but greater things even. Yet she cheated on me over the course of over half a year and left me in financial ruin that took over a decade to recover from. Until that point I thought the armour of God was all I needed. After all, if God was with me who could be against me? That isn't what happened. And it dealt a detrimental blow to my faith. Even after that though, I continued while trying to figure out why God hadn't fulfilled his promises and provide the answers to all the other questions filled my mind from that event. 

 

I believe even after that divorce I did the best I could to be faithful for several years afterward. Until all the other questions weve already discussed became to much of a burden. 

 

15 hours ago, aik said:

If you can manage everything in your life, then why when you lose your health, run to the doctor forgetting about everything like it was the last hope of yours? and so many questions like this. 

 

Do you not go to the doctor? Why wouldn't I go to those educated in the healing of the human body if I'm sick? When the bible and the beliefs of faith healing were propagated a person was sometimes safer not to go to an ancient healer than to go. In other words. Those who practiced medicine in ancient times possibly killed just as many people as the illnesses themselves. You would know this is you would take a critical look at history and why certain beliefs were prevalent at the time. Much has changed in the past 2000 years and I hope you would agree. Humans have brought about real miracles in the medical field with NO help from God. If God were the reason for medical advancements the ancient Jewish people of Jesus's time would have been curing cancer 2000 years ago after worshipping their God for 1,500 years. To suggest that the Christian God allowed humans to gain the knowledge is laughable. 

 

Best regards,

Dark Bishop

 

 

[aik]

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

I'm assuming this is directed at me since we've discussed my marriages

You are right dear bishop. It has come to my mind first, but without any judgement, i reminded others in such a situation, my cousin for example. And i allow that anyone of us, even myself, can find himself in such a situation if God allows it happen. So please excuse me if i hurt you. I did not mean that. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 hours ago, aik said:

You are right dear bishop. It has come to my mind first, but without any judgement, i reminded others in such a situation, my cousin for example. And i allow that anyone of us, even myself, can find himself in such a situation if God allows it happen. So please excuse me if i hurt you. I did not mean that. 

 Its alright, the way you presented it it sounded like you thought my faith may have been week. And that's why I didn't keep my wife. But that just wasn't the case at that time in my life. I was probably actually at the peak of my faith during that time and especially just before. 

 

DB

[◊ Weezer ◊]

9 hours ago, aik said:

 

From the very beginning of my presence here you try to push me out. Whenever i confess the faith, you advice me, kindly, to leave this site. Why?

 

Do you feel threatened by me?

 

No, I do not feel threatened by you.  Perhaps there is a misunderstanding due to language difference.  I am NOT trying to push you out.   I am saying that if you honestly listen to our views, you may be converted to our way of thinking.  So, if you want to continue in your faith as it is now, perhaps you should stop listening to us.  The choice is yours.  But perhaps you are not really listening to us.  You see the words, but the thoughts are like "water off a ducks back".

 

I will be glad to hear what you think of my deconversion story.  It is interesting that you also had some experience with the Church of Christ.  It is also interesting that I at one time had beliefs similar to what you are expressing now.  That is one reason I think you, like myself, may deconvert if you keep listening to us here.

 

Perhaps one difference between us, is that I prayed to find truth, while you are praying for faith in Jesus.  Or perhaps you are just assuming there is no truth outside Jesus??  If that is the case, your mind is closed to any information you do not already have.  

[aik]

5 hours ago, Weezer said:

I will be glad to hear what you think of my deconversion story. 

Sure, I am going to finish it to have the whole story. You are very good in explaining details and your spiritual sufferings you had. I appreciate for having an oppurtunity to read it. I am closed now for disbelief because I was there already. What I have with Jesus is much more greater than what the world is able to offer me. That means that it is better for me to be the worst guy in Jesus than the best and the smartest man in the world. Gift of God with Jesus is precious. One cannot find it enywhere save for the Gospel. 

[aik]

15 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Do you not go to the doctor?

 

 Whenever I say to an atheist of an agnostic that one should lay his hope on God if he has some health issues, the first question i hear all the time is 'Don't you go to a doctor?'. The anwer is "Yes, I do". I use doctorial services freely. I am not restricted in it by my faith. You are very correect saying that God never forbid his nation to visit a doctor. Though there were some exclusive cases, and there are. 

 

Laying your hope on God is very deep cordial thing. It happens deep in your spirit. Of course when we go to a doctor we hope that he will have success in curing us. It is normal. But ultimately I hope on God, knowing that everything even ability of the doctor, even my health and my life is in His hands only. And if He says Aik, it is enough, you need to come to Me now, then no doctor can do anything to hinder it. Or otherwise if God says Aik you live, then Aik will live on, no matter whatever happens with the doctor. But me as you, I agree and do not deny medicine, but respect it. It is a very respectful and responsible job in my eyes.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

12 minutes ago, aik said:

 

. And if He says Aik, it is enough, you need to come to Me now, then no doctor can do anything to hinder it. Or otherwise if God says Aik you live, then Aik will live on, no matter whatever happens with the doctor. 

 

Does God talk to you?

[aik]

21 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Does God talk to you?

God speaks to me and to every believer. 

 

I am not sure about the word TALK. Maybe you will get me wrong if I say talk. He speaks to us. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

7 hours ago, aik said:

God speaks to me and to every believer. 

 

I am not sure about the word TALK. Maybe you will get me wrong if I say talk. He speaks to us. 

How does he "speak" to you?  Do you hear him with your ears?  If not, and you say he speaks through the bible, or the holy spirit, Then our conversation is over.  You have my answers to what I believe about the bible, god  and jesus in my essay.  And I believe the holy spirit is a concept formed in your own brain.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

@TABA

 

I feel that you hit a nail on the head here on that last reply.

 

"It seems like you are rejecting any science that conflicts with your belief.  This is known in English as "presupposition":  starting with a belief, and only accepting evidence that agrees with it."

 

This is why I think true science is far superior to Christian Science. The name itself indicates a predisposition to the Christian Narrative. True science can use biblical theory as a starting point. As they have in the past. But when the evidences in whatever science your looking at start showing a different story. A true scientist will admit the theory is no longer sound. And come up with a different theory to test until the evidence supports the theory. A "Christian" scientist will go to great lengths, making leaps and bounds trying to explain why the evidence could still be valid. But the logic never fully connects and there is always a very good counter argument why that doesn't work either. 

 

DB

[walterpthefirst]

"It seems like you are rejecting any science that conflicts with your belief.  This is known in English as "presupposition":  starting with a belief, and only accepting evidence that agrees with it."

 

 

It's possible that aik doesn't  understand that religious faith plays no role in science.  Its also possible that he doesn't understand that the discipline of science is always neutral and agnostic, confining itself strictly to natural causes and remaining completely silent about supernatural matters.  These are common misunderstandings about science.

 

This could also explain why he thinks that scientists who do not agree with what the bible says about the flood are doing so because they are atheists.  Whereas, the real reason why scientists do not agree with what the bible says about the flood are doing so because science will not permit them to do so.  Things which cannot be studied, tested, checked and experimented on are outside of science's remit.  It can say nothing about them. 

 

When you become a scientist you sign up to a method and discipline of investigating only the natural, not the supernatural.  Only the physical, not the metaphysical.  Only the material, not the immaterial or spiritual.  If you can't operate within this framework, as millions of scientists around the world successfully do, then you shouldn't become a scientist.  Those are the rules you sign up to.  Its not for you to dictate or reinterpret how science should function, according to your private religious beliefs.  Science is a worldly, agnostic and secular enterprise, not a spiritual or religious one.

 

Furthermore, science doesn't require scientists to follow any specific religious belief to do science or to be scientists.  A scientist can be a Muslim or a Sikh, a Jew or a Christian, a Hindu or an Atheist.  Their personal religious beliefs are irrelevant to doing science or being scientists - providing that they do not bring their personal beliefs into their work.  Once they do that they have compromised their professional integrity and opened themselves up to personal bias.  

 

I suspect that aik doesn't understand this either.  Or, if he does, he will struggle to accept it.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

12 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

  

I suspect that aik doesn't understand this either.  Or, if he does, he will struggle to accept it.

 

It seems like there are some things Christians can't "think" about.  It's almost like their objective "thinker" quits working.  All they can do is similar to  pushing the play button on a recording machine.  They can only play back what has been programmed in.  This has been discussed before.  Delusional comes to my mind.  My Dad was a carpenter and could think and reason about how to fix or build something, but get him on the topic of religion and he became a tape recorder.  (for those of you who remember what a tape recorder is)   When he would talk about religion his whole body language would change, and he even would pronounce words differently.  It was weird.  And if you stumped him, he would change the subject, or shake his head and say, "I guess we will have to agree to disagree".  End of discussion.  My observation has been that religion, politics and romantic love are 3 things some people simply cannot be rational about.

[walterpthefirst]

10 hours ago, Weezer said:

It seems like there are some things Christians can't "think" about.  It's almost like their objective "thinker" quits working.  All they can do is similar to  pushing the play button on a recording machine.  They can only play back what has been programmed in.  This has been discussed before.  Delusional comes to my mind.  My Dad was a carpenter and could think and reason about how to fix or build something, but get him on the topic of religion and he became a tape recorder.  (for those of you who remember what a tape recorder is)   When he would talk about religion his whole body language would change, and he even would pronounce words differently.  It was weird.  And if you stumped him, he would change the subject, or shake his head and say, "I guess we will have to agree to disagree".  End of discussion.  My observation has been that religion, politics and romantic love are 3 things some people simply cannot be rational about.

 

Yes Weezer, some people.

 

We Ex-Christians, sceptics and atheists are the other people, the ones who could be rational about religion.

 

Which is why, when we Ex-Christians came to see how irrational religion really was, we could no longer "just believe" it.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

[sdelsolray]

Delusional, full of himself and full of shit.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Social science studies show that "loving neighbor as self" (treating others with respect) does improve group functions and relationships.  So in a sense science does show how to live life.

[mwc]

     There are literally people that exist, right now, that cannot feel pain.  They have a condition called CIPA (Congenital insensitivity to pain with anhidrosis).  You should take a look at them to see what a world without pain would look like.  A "perfect" world like Eden.  People would be unable to detect when they came to harm unless the idea of Eden is that it was a world where everything was unable to harm like rocks that were soft and unable to scrape or bruise.  This is not what the bible describes however.

 

     So as it stands it would appear that if we have no pain we might cause undo harm to ourselves.  So pain is what helps alerts us to injury.  This would seem to work in the same way hunger alerts us that we are in need of food.

 

     Moving on, while pain is a part of healing imagine this.  If you were to become injured, severely so, and were put into a coma so that you could not feel any pain at all, would your body heal?  If pain was required to heal then you would not until you came out of the coma but we know that the body does heal even if it is unconscious when it does not recognize pain.  We're just accustomed to pain and healing going together and so we use pain as a part of healing.  Pain and suffering, in and of themselves, are not a necessary part of healing.

 

     Pain is what alerts us to injury but it is not required for healing.  Once you're aware of the injury you can remove the pain and heal completely.  The only reason our bodies continue to feel pain while we're healing is just because it is still injured and continually alerts us to that fact.  Medication can dampen this.

 

     The only justification given for suffering in life is that we, all the people in general, must have some form of general "illness" and that illness in xianity is called "sin."  While we are sick we will experience pain.  When we are healed then the pain will end.  However, we have, in god, a perfect doctor with perfect healing abilities.  This is the crux of the problem here.  A human doctor is not all-powerful and cannot heal perfectly which is why we feel on-going pain after treatment until we heal ourselves even with their help.  God, on the other hand, is all-powerful can heal immediately and perfectly, but still the suffering continues.  This is what Epicurus was talking about.  The god that has all the ability to immediately act but yet suffering remains.

 

     Anyway, I'm not going to have any time for several weeks at least to discuss this beyond this post so I hope this all makes sense.

 

       mwc

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

aik, I know you are lurking, so while there is a lull in the posting here, I want to bring this "God thing" into todays perspective.  Lets say there is a large family with several small children and infants.  Some of the adults are misbehaving badly, so the patriarch of the family decides to kill the whole family by drowning, including kids and infants.  Would we just ignore it and praise the old man for getting rid of the riff raff??  And by the way, I recently found out that a version of the flood (Sumerian) much older than the Bible, says God killed the humans because they were making so much noise he couldn't sleep.  

 

Can't you see how ridicilous the whole concept of the Old Testament God is??

[aik]

6 hours ago, Weezer said:

aik, I know you are lurking, so while there is a lull in the posting here, I want to bring this "God thing" into todays perspective.  Lets say there is a large family with several small children and infants.  Some of the adults are misbehaving badly, so the patriarch of the family decides to kill the whole family by drowning, including kids and infants.  Would we just ignore it and praise the old man for getting rid of the riff raff??  And by the way, I recently found out that a version of the flood (Sumerian) much older than the Bible, says God killed the humans because they were making so much noise he couldn't sleep.  

 

Can't you see how ridicilous the whole concept of the Old Testament God is??

The old man, patriarch, will be brought to a judge for his crime. 

 

Weezer, I do not know where you are now. I can only make some conclusion based on what you have given to me.

 

I can see how much effort you have to apply for denying an obvious truth, which is in God. My efforts here are to make you change your mind, for your sake. I wish to remind you that everything you do will be brought to the judge. Even if you think of this judge that he is a crucial patriarch killing his family, anyway he is going to judge evefything we do bing in our flesh. If you close your eyes and ears shouting "do not tell me about God", then you are making blind yourself. 

 

Your problem is not about having evidences. If it was so, i would give you videos about evidences for god and thats it. 

 

But you try to have an open heart. You say you were there, but based on your essay i can say you never knew God. It is not because of the church. I speak about your personal beliefs. You were never touched by God. You have not a word about your relationships wit him. It means your ex-religious life was vain. You were delivered from a mud and fell into a dirty water. Say that i am wrong. Tell me please about your relationships with God. If you had. Let me be a stupid and you a wise. Tell me please. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 hour ago, aik said:

 

The old man, patriarch, will be brought to a judge for his crime. 

 

If you did not understand that I was comparing that to the Biblical God and the flood in Genesis, And that the story in the Bible was borrowed from earlier writings and is not the literal truth, Then I think we are both wasting our time.

 

Yes, I knew God.  You get to "know" him through reading the Bible.  And if you are telling me God, or the holy spirit, talks directly to you, Then we REALLY ARE WASTING OUR TIME.   The Christian God and Jesus both are NOT ORIGINAL "SAVIORS".  The stories are re-told myths.

 

If your goal is to save souls, Then stop wasting your time here on the forum, and go out into the streets and talk to the people who will listen to you.

 

 

[aik]

22 minutes ago, Weezer said:

If you did not understand that I was comparing that to the Biblical God and the flood in Genesis, And that the story in the Bible was borrowed from earlier writings and is not the literal truth, Then I think we are both wasting our time.

 

Yes, I knew God.  You get to "know" him through reading the Bible.  And if you are telling me God, or the holy spirit, talks directly to you, Then we REALLY ARE WASTING OUR TIME.   The Christian God and Jesus both are NOT ORIGINAL "SAVIORS".  The stories are re-told myths.

 

If your goal is to save souls, Then stop wasting your time here on the forum, and go out into the streets and talk to the people who will listen to you.

 

 

 

I surely have understood about your comparison. But the analogy is corrupt verily. That is why your judgement is true concerning a man, but not applicable to God. Because you do not take into account a human sin, creator of a man, and judgement. 

 

You were reading the Bible but never knew that God speaks to a believer directly. This is ridiculous! But in the same time it is so sad. So I am asking now, what were you reading so many years then? But the Bible teaches us that a man cannot know God and have communion with him and listen to God without the Holy Spirit. It is IMPOSSIBLE! And you are the proof of it. But you can renew your knowledge again about God, despite your age. A father of one of our elders repented and got the Holy Spirit in his 88. Nothing is impossible for God. He still loves you, it is you that are lost without him dear Weezer. I believe you have very good deeds, but without God they are unable to save you.  

 

I do not know why you gave more accounts to them who told you that the Bible is a re-told myth than to those who say that the Bible is powerful to save a sinner from his sins. But your basement here is not stronger than of the believers. You choose yourself to whom believe. It is your life. But God chose to come to the world in the person of his Son in a flesh to save you. It is a history plus revelation of God about His Son. Do you remember Peter the apostle when he answered Jesus that He was the Christ of God in Mat.16? And Jesus said to him, it is not the flesh and blood told you that, but my Father in heaven He is the one who revealed it to you. So Peter as well was standing in front of just a man. But somehow he saw not only a man in Jesus, but he saw also a god in Jesus. How? Jesus answers.

 

I am not wasting my time here. Time is valuable for me, and you everyone here are valuable for Jesus. He loves you!

 

[walterpthefirst]

The reason why you are wasting your time with us aik can be seen here.

 

Your problem is not about having evidences. If it was so, I would give you videos about evidences for god and that's it. 

 

If you do not have any evidence for us beyond your claims then we are not interested.

 

This is not negotiable and we will not change our requirement for evidence.

 

Therefore you are wasting your time asking us to open our hearts to Jesus or by appealing to our emotions.

 

The stalemate between us will continue until you give us the evidence we require.

 

 

 

Walter.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Let me try putting this another way, aik.

 

I opened my heart first to my parents because they raised, clothed, fed and loved me.  Then I opened my heart to my brothers and wider family because they looked after me, played with me and had quality time with me.  I opened my heart to my close friends because they befriended me, shared their lives with me and supported me when I needed it.  Later, I opened my heart to my wife because she returned my feelings of love, shared her life with me and committed herself to me.

 

In all of these instances these people never demanded that I love them under the threat of violence of violence and suffering.  But this is what Jesus demands of me.  Either I love him on his terms or he will have me violently thrown into the lake of fire, where I will suffer forever.  Which of these two examples shows true love?  If you say the example of Jesus, then I must ask you for evidence to support your claim.

 

And this is another vital difference between the real people I have opened my heart to and the person of Jesus.  All of the people I mentioned are real.  I have touched, held, shaken hands with them and hugged them.  I have eaten and drunk with them.  They can be seen and heard.  I have listened to them with my ears and watched them with my eyes.  They are real.

 

But Jesus asks me to reject all of the above and also demands that I treat him as more real than them, even though I have not seen him with my eyes, heard him with my ears or met him in the flesh.  Saying that I will get to do that if I first accept him as real is not good enough for me.  He is asking me to give up too much for potentially nothing at all.  And that is why I must have evidence that my eyes and ears can see and hear before I accept that Jesus is real.

 

So, please don't reply to this with more accounts of how Jesus has changed your life, aik.  Nor give me any third-hand examples of how he has touched the lives of others.

 

Where is the evidence that I can accept?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[aik]

2 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

Let me try putting this another way, aik.

 

I opened my heart first to my parents because they raised, clothed, fed and loved me.  Then I opened my heart to my brothers and wider family because they looked after me, played with me and had quality time with me.  I opened my heart to my close friends because they befriended me, shared their lives with me and supported me when I needed it.  Later, I opened my heart to my wife because she returned my feelings of love, shared her life with me and committed herself to me.

 

In all of these instances these people never demanded that I love them under the threat of violence of violence and suffering.  But this is what Jesus demands of me.  Either I love him on his terms or he will have me violently thrown into the lake of fire, where I will suffer forever.  Which of these two examples shows true love?  If you say the example of Jesus, then I must ask you for evidence to support your claim.

 

And this is another vital difference between the real people I have opened my heart to and the person of Jesus.  All of the people I mentioned are real.  I have touched, held, shaken hands with them and hugged them.  I have eaten and drunk with them.  They can be seen and heard.  I have listened to them with my ears and watched them with my eyes.  They are real.

 

But Jesus asks me to reject all of the above and also demands that I treat him as more real than them, even though I have not seen him with my eyes, heard him with my ears or met him in the flesh.  Saying that I will get do that if I first accept him as real is not good enough for me.  He is asking me to give up too much for potentially nothing at all.  And that is why I must have evidence that my eyes and ears can see and hear before I accept that Jesus is real.

 

So, please don't reply to this with more accounts of how Jesus has changed your life, aik.  Nor give me any third-hand examples of how he has touched the lives of others.

 

Where is the evidence that I can accept?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

You, personally you, will never have evidence Walter. Do not ask me again for one.