What am I?

January 2, 2023

Starting off I have and probably will continue to “have a relationship” with that which many will say I lack data to presume it’s existentence and willingness to relate with me; A relationship with God. I’m not interested here to discuss the validity or soundness of this belief of which given that this universe tends to give very little without imparting suffering on those who have beliefs. It’s a pointless and fruitless discussion which will inevitably degrade into accusations of irrationality and name calling. Just assume that I have experiences in my life that reinforce my beliefs and they are not Axioms or truth tables but rather encounters much like you would have with any other human person. Discomapassionatley dusmismissing my life experiences as a delusion is VERY TOXIC behavior by the merits of our own culture akin to gas-lighting behavior.

Second, I do not believe in reason. Rationality is jargon shorthand for ending a discussion. All human faculties even at their best are prone to error and worst of all influence.Nothing is more dangerous than a mass of humans who between who someone says they are and my perception of their actions.

think different than you. That’s why I’m here. Because I’m hoping that a civil discussion will ensue and I might find some comfort instead of proverbial pitchforks.

Third, I do not find suffering and death to be problematic because who’s to say God doesn’t enjoy that sort of thing. Why does God have to necessarily not exist, he could just be an asshole. I have encountered a Being who’s true motive of human flourishing is claimed even if their is evidence that confuses me about that motive, I will not discount existence based on congnitive dissonance between who someone claims to be and their actions. I just will not trust them.

Fourth, I want to know if anyone here feels the way I do. I’m at a very scary place in life right now and I need hope.

I know a lot of you will give the advice to pick myself up and be my own comfort but this is a uncomapssionate way to relate to those who are suffering. It shuts down discussion and reduces all my problems to a single principle of quasi Ayn-Randish objectivity. I reject this premise because Ms. Rand like her modernist industrialized contemporaries only see human value in economic terms. The principle of human utility is reductive to man and the tool of tyrants.

im not on a journey to be more like the collective mindset of this forum, I’m not on a journey to sit in a pew and engage in a watered down version of the third centuries version of the Christian collective known today as going to church/mass.

im just here in this tortured space of an individual refusing to conform to be accepted. Is there anyone else out there? Or are we all just desperate to find that particular flavor of koolaid which provides us enough ethical cover to excuse our bad behavior? Jumping ship as soon as we see dissonance between our desires and our values.

January 3, 2023

You impose many rules and cautions for the privilege of having a discussion with you.

I am sorry, but cannot think of anything to contribute to your request for civil discourse other than suggest you consult regularly with a secular mental health professional of your own choosing. I hope you find what you seem to want or need.

January 3, 2023

4 hours ago, Veralynn said:

Starting off I have and probably will continue to “have a relationship” with that which many will say I lack data to presume it’s existentence and willingness to relate with me; A relationship with God. I’m not interested here to discuss the validity or soundness of this belief of which given that this universe tends to give very little without imparting suffering on those who have beliefs. It’s a pointless and fruitless discussion which will inevitably degrade into accusations of irrationality and name calling. Just assume that I have experiences in my life that reinforce my beliefs and they are not Axioms or truth tables but rather encounters much like you would have with any other human person. Discomapassionatley dusmismissing my life experiences as a delusion is VERY TOXIC behavior by the merits of our own culture akin to gas-lighting behavior.

Second, I do not believe in reason. Rationality is jargon shorthand for ending a discussion. All human faculties even at their best are prone to error and worst of all influence.Nothing is more dangerous than a mass of humans who between who someone says they are and my perception of their actions.

think different than you. That’s why I’m here. Because I’m hoping that a civil discussion will ensue and I might find some comfort instead of proverbial pitchforks.

Third, I do not find suffering and death to be problematic because who’s to say God doesn’t enjoy that sort of thing. Why does God have to necessarily not exist, he could just be an asshole. I have encountered a Being who’s true motive of human flourishing is claimed even if their is evidence that confuses me about that motive, I will not discount existence based on congnitive dissonance between who someone claims to be and their actions. I just will not trust them.

Fourth, I want to know if anyone here feels the way I do. I’m at a very scary place in life right now and I need hope.

I know a lot of you will give the advice to pick myself up and be my own comfort but this is a uncomapssionate way to relate to those who are suffering. It shuts down discussion and reduces all my problems to a single principle of quasi Ayn-Randish objectivity. I reject this premise because Ms. Rand like her modernist industrialized contemporaries only see human value in economic terms. The principle of human utility is reductive to man and the tool of tyrants.

im not on a journey to be more like the collective mindset of this forum, I’m not on a journey to sit in a pew and engage in a watered down version of the third centuries version of the Christian collective known today as going to church/mass.

im just here in this tortured space of an individual refusing to conform to be accepted. Is there anyone else out there? Or are we all just desperate to find that particular flavor of koolaid which provides us enough ethical cover to excuse our bad behavior? Jumping ship as soon as we see dissonance between our desires and our values.

Your very first posting. Welcome to Ex-Christ. Note: not everyone has a God. Not me. I'm a human animal. And of course you and everyone else has a right to believe whatever you like concerning religion and a God, spirituality, etc. Here in this forum there is no collective mindset. We were at one time Christians, and now most of us are no longer Christians. There are pure atheists here like myself, many agnostics, some spiritualists, etc. We do not argue religion here. It is argued in the Debate forums.

It's just fine to be here and have religious beliefs. But if you wish to argue religion, that would be done in the debate forums. What am I, was your question. It appears to me from your writings that you are a theist, but one questioning religion. This puts you as somewhat of an agnostic concerning your religious beliefs. But you could call yourself anything you like.

Have a happy New Yoar and hope you like talking with us here in our forum. Best of luck and cheers

January 3, 2023

Well it looks like your losing faith and see fallacies even tho you don't want to. You don't believe in either the Christian Narrative or the non religious view. Maybe it is this internal conflict that is making you feel hopeless.

Unfortunately your not getting relief or answers from God because...... maybe he's an asshole. I hit a point like that. I felt like maybe I had done something to make him not like me. That he was real. But I just wasn't good enough.

That is all just speculation based on your initial post. But if that is where you are at. It is a torturous place to be. Like a spiritual limbo. The best advice I could give you is just to keep searching for answers. Although my deconversion has been fraught with life changing effects. I do feel that I've finally found the answers I needed to my questions and doubting heart. As a result. I have peace of mind spiritually with my conclusions.

If god is real.... it isn't the bible God.

If it isn't the bible God, then I don't have a Heaven to lose or a hell to fear.

Since there is no heaven or hell I am free to hope for something more to my taste.

If there is no God. I just die and my consciousness will cease to exist.

Having my resolve in these four things gives me peace. Even when life throws a wrench in everything else.

I hope you find your peace as well. Happy New Year and Welcome to ExC.

Best Regards,

Dark Bishop

January 3, 2023

Welcome. It feels like you are trying to work out who you are and what you believe, not sitting comfortably in either camp. Many churches have apologetics ministries now which is obviously trying to cater for the increasing number in their midst with doubts.

For me, it was too much explaining away - for those who were atheists but just didn’t know it yet, as someone put it. Ultimately I ended up over here.

But have you worked through those apologetics yet? It might help clarify your thinking.

I understand what you mean about the mental torture. It most likely won’t last forever.

January 3, 2023

I suspect all of the rules and regulations you impose on the otherwise uncertain process of social discourse are actually just preemptive defenses against unknown and/or perceived threats. Perhaps you've attempted to address your concerns and issues with other people both inside and outside the institutions of religion; and have found yourself much the worse for wear as a result. You need not worry with us. We do argue; but, as has been mentioned, there are other forums for that. Not here. This is a place of healing; because nearly all of us have been in the quagmire of confusion, doubt, and disillusionment in which you are currently wading. The more you talk it out with us, the more we can help you. How open you are to our help is up to you.

One thing I notice, though, from your post above, is that you seem to be coming at this with the idea that you'd like to discuss certain topics without changing your mind on said topics. While it is certainly not my place to tell you what decision you should ultimately make, or what conclusion you should finally draw, it is within my purview to point out that such a narrow-minded approach is unlikely to yield favorable and sustainable results. If the conclusion is already set, and nothing will move you from it, then you'll likely just end up with more information and ideas, many of which contradict the conclusion, which will only add to your already untenable disillusionment and confusion.

A more beneficial approach might be to put the conclusion aside for a moment and simply explore where the information and ideas lead you. This is the approach many of us eventually took. Some of us were led directly to pure atheism; others were led to adopt new/alternative forms of spirituality. The key factor is that, once we reached our conclusions, they truly were our conclusions, not merely preconceived conclusions for which we now had further questions, and the ever-dreaded cognitive dissonance.

This approach may also work for you; but, as I said, how open you are is up to you.

January 3, 2023

12 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

You impose many rules and cautions for the privilege of having a discussion with you.

I am sorry, but cannot think of anything to contribute to your request for civil discourse other than suggest you consult regularly with a secular mental health professional of your own choosing. I hope you find what you seem to want or need.

I understand that engaging with what I have presented is overwhelming. It isn’t any sort of privilege to discuss this with me. I fact it’s probably a waste of your time. As for the therapy, been in therapy since I was 11. Lots of therapy, lots of medications. Yum. I do thank you for making a hope for my mental health though. I’m of the persuasion that all hope is mystical future projection, I mystically future project that you understand that in jest.

January 3, 2023

12 hours ago, pantheory said:

Your very first posting. Welcome to Ex-Christ. Note: not everyone has a God. Not me. I'm a human animal. And of course you and everyone else has a right to believe whatever you like concerning religion and a God, spirituality, etc. Here in this forum there is no collective mindset. We were at one time Christians, and now most of us are no longer Christians. There are pure atheists here like myself, many agnostics, some spiritualists, etc. We do not argue religion here. It is argued in the Debate forums.

It's just fine to be here and have religious beliefs. But if you wish to argue religion, that would be done in the debate forums. What am I, was your question. It appears to me from your writings that you are a theist, but one questioning religion. This puts you as somewhat of an agnostic concerning your religious beliefs. But you could call yourself anything you like.

Have a happy New Yoar and hope you like talking with us here in our forum. Best of luck and cheers

Thanks for welcoming me so kindly to your forum. I take it you are some kind of moderator. Forgive me if I have blasted right through all the rules and guidelines for engaging here. I don’t do forums on the regular and frequently just get too bogged down in parsing through to make sure I’m not sinning against this virtual community. Please forgive my impolite intrusion. I’m am seeking and always will be, not because I don’t believe in truth, just that my access to it is marginal and suspect. thanks again

January 3, 2023

12 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Well it looks like your losing faith and see fallacies even tho you don't want to. You don't believe in either the Christian Narrative or the non religious view. Maybe it is this internal conflict that is making you feel hopeless.

Unfortunately your not getting relief or answers from God because...... maybe he's an asshole. I hit a point like that. I felt like maybe I had done something to make him not like me. That he was real. But I just wasn't good enough.

That is all just speculation based on your initial post. But if that is where you are at. It is a torturous place to be. Like a spiritual limbo. The best advice I could give you is just to keep searching for answers. Although my deconversion has been fraught with life changing effects. I do feel that I've finally found the answers I needed to my questions and doubting heart. As a result. I have peace of mind spiritually with my conclusions.

If god is real.... it isn't the bible God.

If it isn't the bible God, then I don't have a Heaven to lose or a hell to fear.

Since there is no heaven or hell I am free to hope for something more to my taste.

If there is no God. I just die and my consciousness will cease to exist.

Having my resolve in these four things gives me peace. Even when life throws a wrench in everything else.

I hope you find your peace as well. Happy New Year and Welcome to ExC.

Best Regards,

Dark Bishop

It’s not pleasant to read words like ‘losing faith’. ‘Losing My Religion’ is in a minor key after all. But I definitely see how I constructed that narrative myself. Much of my apprehension and awkwardness is because I have a mental disorder which Can drive a good dose of anxious panic in social interactions. Dismissiveness is the typical behavior I’m met with when I share my testimony. I wish to clarify, I’m not afraid of God. I’m afraid of people. People misunderstand, have trauma, bias, agendas… ALL humans, No matter their beliefs act according to their own desires and slip whichever ethic gives them the best social defense. This can’t be trusted.

thank you for sharing your journey. I was curious about what led you away from a deistic cosmology. Hawking?

also I’m terrified of dying. “I will not go gently…”

January 3, 2023

10 hours ago, Henndigo said:

Welcome. It feels like you are trying to work out who you are and what you believe, not sitting comfortably in either camp. Many churches have apologetics ministries now which is obviously trying to cater for the increasing number in their midst with doubts.

For me, it was too much explaining away - for those who were atheists but just didn’t know it yet, as someone put it. Ultimately I ended up over here.

But have you worked through those apologetics yet? It might help clarify your thinking.

I understand what you mean about the mental torture. It most likely won’t last forever.

Well I think the problem might have been too much apologetics. I went to a Christian Liberal Arts college in rural Georgia. That was nearly 20 years ago. Honestly it was one of the most disruptive experiences in terms of my belief systems at the time. It wasn’t fundi, and I still don’t consider it that. (Two of its science faculty recently published a work espousing a compatibilist view of Evolution being a vehicle of creation.) I have a very hard time accepting anything anyone says as true because my mother is a BPD alcoholic who used scripture to manipulate her children into fighting each other for her own sick amusement. This more than her religion is the source of my skepticism. Buuuuut, just because that was my experience with apologetics doesn’t mean I’ve heard it all. Most apologetics I’ve encountered has been largely unimpressive. A defense for believing in God begs the question that God needs defending. So I view it as proselytizing at best and slimy social manipulation at worst. I sure do hope your right about the torture though.

January 3, 2023

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I suspect all of the rules and regulations you impose on the otherwise uncertain process of social discourse are actually just preemptive defenses against unknown and/or perceived threats. Perhaps you've attempted to address your concerns and issues with other people both inside and outside the institutions of religion; and have found yourself much the worse for wear as a result. You need not worry with us. We do argue; but, as has been mentioned, there are other forums for that. Not here. This is a place of healing; because nearly all of us have been in the quagmire of confusion, doubt, and disillusionment in which you are currently wading. The more you talk it out with us, the more we can help you. How open you are to our help is up to you.

One thing I notice, though, from your post above, is that you seem to be coming at this with the idea that you'd like to discuss certain topics without changing your mind on said topics. While it is certainly not my place to tell you what decision you should ultimately make, or what conclusion you should finally draw, it is within my purview to point out that such a narrow-minded approach is unlikely to yield favorable and sustainable results. If the conclusion is already set, and nothing will move you from it, then you'll likely just end up with more information and ideas, many of which contradict the conclusion, which will only add to your already untenable disillusionment and confusion.

A more beneficial approach might be to put the conclusion aside for a moment and simply explore where the information and ideas lead you. This is the approach many of us eventually took. Some of us were led directly to pure atheism; others were led to adopt new/alternative forms of spirituality. The key factor is that, once we reached our conclusions, they truly were our conclusions, not merely preconceived conclusions for which we now had further questions, and the ever-dreaded cognitive dissonance.

This approach may also work for you; but, as I said, how open you are is up to you.

Dark

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I suspect all of the rules and regulations you impose on the otherwise uncertain process of social discourse are actually just preemptive defenses against unknown and/or perceived threats. Perhaps you've attempted to address your concerns and issues with other people both inside and outside the institutions of religion; and have found yourself much the worse for wear as a result. You need not worry with us. We do argue; but, as has been mentioned, there are other forums for that. Not here. This is a place of healing; because nearly all of us have been in the quagmire of confusion, doubt, and disillusionment in which you are currently wading. The more you talk it out with us, the more we can help you. How open you are to our help is up to you.

One thing I notice, though, from your post above, is that you seem to be coming at this with the idea that you'd like to discuss certain topics without changing your mind on said topics. While it is certainly not my place to tell you what decision you should ultimately make, or what conclusion you should finally draw, it is within my purview to point out that such a narrow-minded approach is unlikely to yield favorable and sustainable results. If the conclusion is already set, and nothing will move you from it, then you'll likely just end up with more information and ideas, many of which contradict the conclusion, which will only add to your already untenable disillusionment and confusion.

A more beneficial approach might be to put the conclusion aside for a moment and simply explore where the information and ideas lead you. This is the approach many of us eventually took. Some of us were led directly to pure atheism; others were led to adopt new/alternative forms of spirituality. The key factor is that, once we reached our conclusions, they truly were our conclusions, not merely preconceived conclusions for which we now had further questions, and the ever-dreaded cognitive dissonance.

This approach may also work for you; but, as I said, how open you are is up to you.

Red neck prof. I’m taken off guard here. I’m imposing boundaries because I’m afraid of people abusing my narrative to stroke their ego. Not to intentionally handicap discussion, self protection is necessary for me because humanity is way worse than any religion. The point I was getting at was painting a picture of my beliefs in order to figure out where the hell I am. I’m not interested in arguing as debate is the pointless pile of cowshite that attracts narcissists and trolls to buzz around. Stories are more interesting to me. So yes I freely admit my ‘ rules and regulations’ are boundaries against perceived threats. Except here I’m using inference to suspect that their is more to come.

I think you have mistaken my intentions from the get go. Not placing blame on you for that. I think it was partly my defensive stance and partly a fast read plus a dose of sdelsolrays comment. (It’s amazing how quick the pile on starts.) I just wanted to know what it makes me. And I didnt want to argue. Please. I'm not looking for someone to come in arguing with me about those things because it was secondary and not the point of my testimony. You can ask me questions about things if you are of a curious pursuasion. I dont mind.

Also Why do you say “we” so much? It's alienating.

January 3, 2023

44 minutes ago, Veralynn said:

thank you for sharing your journey. I was curious about what led you away from a deistic cosmology. Hawking?

Questions, answers, and the evidences offered. Are what led to my resolve not to believe anymore.

We've been discussing some of the things I questioned in the Lions Den forum. Such as the tower of Babel, Creation, "the great fall" of Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, and The Exodus. All of which are very key stories in the biblical narrative.

When detectives are trying to figure out the truth about a crime they look at evidence, compared to the stories of witnesses, victims, and suspects. When I looked up the evidence that archeologists have found to either support or counter these biblical stories, I found that in most cases there was no evidence or very little evidence to support the validity of any of the stories I just mentioned.

What has been discovered with the fossil record, scholarly research, and other scientific research doesn't reflect the stories in the bible. They paint a very different picture. Therefore just as a detective would dismiss a false testimony given by a witness based on the evidence at hand. I have also dismissed the biblical narrative based on the evidences discovered.

DB

January 3, 2023

17 hours ago, Veralynn said:

Starting off I have and probably will continue to “have a relationship” with that which many will say I lack data to presume it’s existentence and willingness to relate with me; A relationship with God. I’m not interested here to discuss the validity or soundness of this belief of which given that this universe tends to give very little without imparting suffering on those who have beliefs. It’s a pointless and fruitless discussion which will inevitably degrade into accusations of irrationality and name calling. Just assume that I have experiences in my life that reinforce my beliefs and they are not Axioms or truth tables but rather encounters much like you would have with any other human person. Discomapassionatley dusmismissing my life experiences as a delusion is VERY TOXIC behavior by the merits of our own culture akin to gas-lighting behavior.

Second, I do not believe in reason. Rationality is jargon shorthand for ending a discussion. All human faculties even at their best are prone to error and worst of all influence.Nothing is more dangerous than a mass of humans who between who someone says they are and my perception of their actions.

think different than you. That’s why I’m here. Because I’m hoping that a civil discussion will ensue and I might find some comfort instead of proverbial pitchforks.

Third, I do not find suffering and death to be problematic because who’s to say God doesn’t enjoy that sort of thing. Why does God have to necessarily not exist, he could just be an asshole. I have encountered a Being who’s true motive of human flourishing is claimed even if their is evidence that confuses me about that motive, I will not discount existence based on congnitive dissonance between who someone claims to be and their actions. I just will not trust them.

Fourth, I want to know if anyone here feels the way I do. I’m at a very scary place in life right now and I need hope.

I know a lot of you will give the advice to pick myself up and be my own comfort but this is a uncomapssionate way to relate to those who are suffering. It shuts down discussion and reduces all my problems to a single principle of quasi Ayn-Randish objectivity. I reject this premise because Ms. Rand like her modernist industrialized contemporaries only see human value in economic terms. The principle of human utility is reductive to man and the tool of tyrants.

im not on a journey to be more like the collective mindset of this forum, I’m not on a journey to sit in a pew and engage in a watered down version of the third centuries version of the Christian collective known today as going to church/mass.

im just here in this tortured space of an individual refusing to conform to be accepted. Is there anyone else out there? Or are we all just desperate to find that particular flavor of koolaid which provides us enough ethical cover to excuse our bad behavior? Jumping ship as soon as we see dissonance between our desires and our values.

Hi Veralynn,

Welcome to the forum. These are good folks here, even if I've recently come to disagree with them on matters of theology :jesus:

Regarding the part of your post that I bolded: Do I understand correctly that you believe in some version of God, but you are questioning the nature of said being? I'd say we've all been there in a sense. It's pretty easy to make the case for an evil god in the old testament.

But to my mind, this is only a problem if you take a fundamentalist approach to Christianity. I think it's worth keeping in mind that the bible is a collection of books written by numerous people in different times and places. Written in numerous languages, for different reasons, and most of these books were never originally meant to be compiled into a single work. The fact that they're all compiled into the Bible- that's the work of various religious authorities over the years. IMO to be a fundamentalist, one has to have quite a bit of faith in 4th century Catholics

As most here are quick to point out, there are thousands of different versions of the Christian God. Some worship an angry, vengeful, Calivinist God. Others a squishy loving Unitarian Universalist God. And there are Christians in other parts of the world who worship versions of the Christian God that we would hardly recognize. All of these versions are backed by people who have devoted their lives to this version of God, and who have a lifetime full of reasons to do so.

Personally I don't worry about the vengeful/murderous/angry version of God. If that's what's out there, I have no chance anyway. Nobody does except maybe a few 'chosen', and I know I'm not special. But the peaceful/loving/understanding Jesus & Sundy School version of God who just wants us to love our neighbors and be good members of the tribe? I can get behind that. This is a God that can work with Pascal's Wager. And this is a God that allows me to relate to my tribe in a positive way.

Fundamentalists and Atheists will accuse me of cherry-picking, and they're right. IMO with a book like the Bible, there really is no other option.

January 3, 2023

59 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Questions, answers, and the evidences offered. Are what led to my resolve not to believe anymore.

We've been discussing some of the things I questioned in the Lions Den forum. Such as the tower of Babel, Creation, "the great fall" of Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, and The Exodus. All of which are very key stories in the biblical narrative.

When detectives are trying to figure out the truth about a crime they look at evidence, compared to the stories of witnesses, victims, and suspects. When I looked up the evidence that archeologists have found to either support or counter these biblical stories, I found that in most cases there was no evidence or very little evidence to support the validity of any of the stories I just mentioned.

What has been discovered with the fossil record, scholarly research, and other scientific research doesn't reflect the stories in the bible. They paint a very different picture. Therefore just as a detective would dismiss a false testimony given by a witness based on the evidence at hand. I have also dismissed the biblical narrative based on the evidences discovered.

DB

I'm not saying you're wrong here- not in a literal sense. Thing is that you can make the same criticism of pretty much any religious text, tradition, mythology, etc. Should humans throw out all culture, tradition, ritual, art, etc. that isn't literally, factually accurate?

It's a literal fact though that religious experiences are nearly universal among human cultures. It's also a literal fact that a majority of human primates consider their religion to be a source of meaning, guidance, comfort, connection, etc. It's probably a literal fact that our monkey-brains are hard-wired for this sort of thing.

There are domains in life where we all practice a sort of faith that extends beyond the literal, verifiable, and measurable. We can't function as humans without doing that to some extent.

January 3, 2023

3 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

I'm not saying you're wrong here- not in a literal sense. Thing is that you can make the same criticism of pretty much any religious text, tradition, mythology, etc. Should humans throw out all culture, tradition, ritual, art, etc. that isn't literally, factually accurate?

No I don't think it is healthy to believe in verifiable fables, lies, and half truths. I never said I had found evidence against all religions, cultures, traditions, or mythology. But my conclusions are based on evidence and the evidence shows that the Bible, Torah, and Quran, are all false narratives and are concepts of reality based on myth.

If your going to try to counter ExC arguments in all the forums you will need to be restricted to the lions den as this is the only area allowed for Christians to argue against us. Is that not correct @TheRedneckProfessor?

DB

January 3, 2023

4 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

No I don't think it is healthy to believe in verifiable fables, lies, and half truths. I never said I had found evidence against all religions, cultures, traditions, or mythology. But my conclusions are based on evidence and the evidence shows that the Bible, Torah, and Quran, are all false narratives and are concepts of reality based on myth.

If your going to try to counter ExC arguments in all the forums you will need to be restricted to the lions den as this is the only area allowed for Christians to argue against us. Is that not correct @TheRedneckProfessor?

DB

I'll leave it up to the mods as to whether or not I need to be contained. I've given everybody fair warning, including WebMDave.

One thing I've come to see in myself is that my own fixation on the rational, the literal, the verifiable... it's a reflection of the fundamentalist mindset I grew up with. I think fundamentalists are making a huge error when they try to 'prove' that the Tower of Babel, the Flood, the parting of the Red Sea, etc. are some kind of historical fact. I think that misses the point entirely.

January 3, 2023

6 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

No I don't think it is healthy to believe in verifiable fables, lies, and half truths. I never said I had found evidence against all religions, cultures, traditions, or mythology. But my conclusions are based on evidence and the evidence shows that the Bible, Torah, and Quran, are all false narratives and are concepts of reality based on myth.

If your going to try to counter ExC arguments in all the forums you will need to be restricted to the lions den as this is the only area allowed for Christians to argue against us. Is that not correct @TheRedneckProfessor?

DB

So many rules and guides for engaging in "discussion". Must be narrow-mindedness. Also let's let everyone who has boundaries know that they are narrow-minded. Ain't that right @TheRedneckProfessor isn't this supposed to be a safe space for sharing testimony? Didn't realize it was also a forum for people to qrage around and shout at each other. Too bad I didn't read the rules carefully enough. Maybe I should coppy them down and bindthem to my wrists and forehead.

January 3, 2023

2 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

I'll leave it up to the mods as to whether or not I need to be contained. I've given everybody fair warning, including WebMDave.

One thing I've come to see in myself is that my own fixation on the rational, the literal, the verifiable... it's a reflection of the fundamentalist mindset I grew up with. I think fundamentalists are making a huge error when they try to 'prove' that the Tower of Babel, the Flood, the parting of the Red Sea, etc. are some kind of historical fact. I think that misses the point entirely.

@RankStranger I had some nice things to say but now I just want you too leave as you have railroaded my testimony. Nice witness.

January 3, 2023

Just now, Veralynn said:

@RankStranger I had some nice things to say but now I just want you too leave as you have railroaded my testimony. Nice witness.

@TheRedneckProfessor can also leave

January 3, 2023

2 minutes ago, Veralynn said:

@RankStranger I had some nice things to say but now I just want you too leave as you have railroaded my testimony. Nice witness.

Fair enough. God bless and have a good day

January 3, 2023

6 minutes ago, Veralynn said:

So many rules and guides for engaging in "discussion". Must be narrow-mindedness. Also let's let everyone who has boundaries know that they are narrow-minded. Ain't that right @TheRedneckProfessor isn't this supposed to be a safe space for sharing testimony? Didn't realize it was also a forum for people to qrage around and shout at each other. Too bad I didn't read the rules carefully enough. Maybe I should coppy them down and bindthem to my wrists and forehead.

Your conversation and testimony have stayed within the guidelines of this forum. Your not really arguing for or against belief or Christianity. Your trying to find answers which I hope we can help you with. But the point of this forum is to help deconverting Christians cope with the loss of faith. And to encourage, support, and offer guidance through the process of deconversion. This is a sanctuary and support group for those going through a very tumultuous time in their lives. And not somewhere for Christianity to be promoted.

However the promotion and proselytizing of Christians is allowed. In the correct forum. The lions den. Deconverting Christians deserve a place to feel free to voice their questions and concerns about religion without the religious jumping in and trying to sway them back to the church.

DB

January 3, 2023

1 minute ago, RankStranger said:

Fair enough. God bless and have a good day

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

Questions, answers, and the evidences offered. Are what led to my resolve not to believe anymore.

We've been discussing some of the things I questioned in the Lions Den forum. Such as the tower of Babel, Creation, "the great fall" of Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, and The Exodus. All of which are very key stories in the biblical narrative.

When detectives are trying to figure out the truth about a crime they look at evidence, compared to the stories of witnesses, victims, and suspects. When I looked up the evidence that archeologists have found to either support or counter these biblical stories, I found that in most cases there was no evidence or very little evidence to support the validity of any of the stories I just mentioned.

What has been discovered with the fossil record, scholarly research, and other scientific research doesn't reflect the stories in the bible. They paint a very different picture. Therefore just as a detective would dismiss a false testimony given by a witness based on the evidence at hand. I have also dismissed the biblical narrative based on the evidences discovered.

DB

Interesting. I've studied a lot of this as well. Just not enough people fluent in cuneiform. Also this strays significantly from my posting and our discussion. I'm not here to discuss that with you. Especially not here in this space. I may go over and look at this Lions Den (cute name) to engage further when I feel less worried about the quality of that interaction. I'm not here for community or debate. Just answers.

January 3, 2023

2 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Your conversation and testimony have stayed within the guidelines of this forum. Your not really arguing for or against belief or Christianity. Your trying to find answers which I hope we can help you with. But the point of this forum is to help deconverting Christians cope with the loss of faith. And to encourage, support, and offer guidance through the process of deconversion. This is a sanctuary and support group for those going through a very tumultuous time in their lives. And not somewhere for Christianity to be promoted.

However the promotion and proselytizing of Christians is allowed. In the correct forum. The lions den. Deconverting Christians deserve a place to feel free to voice their questions and concerns about religion without the religious jumping in and trying to sway them back to the church.

DB

Thanks for holding up your communities stated values and preserving the integrity of your stated purpose. Also thank you for being kind and patient with me.

January 3, 2023

12 minutes ago, Veralynn said:

Interesting. I've studied a lot of this as well. Just not enough people fluent in cuneiform. Also this strays significantly from my posting and our discussion.

This doesn't stray from our discussion at all. You asked:

3 hours ago, Veralynn said:

I was curious about what led you away from a deistic cosmology. Hawking?

This is my answer to your question. That makes it part of the discussion.

I would never be able to pinpoint one source of information. Or one author. But I can say Bart Ehrman has been the most influential since my deconversion. But not before.

I honestly started searching for archeological evidence to support the bible and resolve lingering questions. In the hopes that I could return to church with peace of mind and a better understanding. My assessment of what had been discovered lead me to the understanding that what I once believed was not actually true. And here I am. Fully deconverted and at peace with it. Before I did that searching I was in a place a lot like what you described. It is a bad place to be. And I hope you find your answers as I found mine.

DB

January 3, 2023

4 hours ago, Veralynn said:

Thanks for welcoming me so kindly to your forum. I take it you are some kind of moderator. Forgive me if I have blasted right through all the rules and guidelines for engaging here. I don’t do forums on the regular and frequently just get too bogged down in parsing through to make sure I’m not sinning against this virtual community. Please forgive my impolite intrusion. I’m am seeking and always will be, not because I don’t believe in truth, just that my access to it is marginal and suspect. thanks again

No, no moderator, Just a regular schlupt (regular member) who has been here about 10 years now. It's very easy-going here, as long as you don't argue religion excepting in the debate forums, and maybe not politics. Like anywhere, over-aggressive wordings can get one in trouble -- but it is generally very easy going here and you've made a good start IMO.

As far as "seeking" is concerned, there are many folks of intellect here with many different opinions.

Best wishes here, and have a great New Year.

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