Those Who Reject the Son Reject Also the Father

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Here's a question for you, Ed.  For me, it's rhetorical; but it might help you to see my point of view if you answer it.

 

The wages of Sin is death...

 

Why?

 

Why is death the wages of Sin?  Why not temporary sickness, or a non-life-threatening handicap?  Why isn't the wages of Sin an unsightly growth at the end of your nose, so everyone you meet knows just how depraved you are?

 

god could have chosen anything to be the wages of Sin; and he chose death. 

 

Why? 

 

What does that say about him?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Another pertinent question, Ed, which, again for me is rhetorical,  but you should try to answer it:

 

Why does there need to be a wage for Sin in the first place?

 

Why not just unconditional forgiveness?  Why not infinite compassion?  Why does the christian god need punishment and retribution in the form of blood and death?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

@TheRedneckProfessor,

 

I think another good question to go along with these two is why is a second death required? Why was just dying not a good enough punishment for the transgression? 

 

DB

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

@TheRedneckProfessor,

 

I think another good question to go along with these two is why is a second death required? Why was just dying not a good enough punishment for the transgression? 

 

DB

 

Thank you, DB.

 

I almost wrote about this earlier today, found my thoughts incomplete and didn't click 'Submit'.  But now that you've raised this, I shall expound.

 

Taking what the Prof has said about scripture, god's entire plan for our redemption relies on a strictly one-for-one payment.  Jesus' one death and blood for mankind's sin.  That's it.  Nothing more.  

 

In Eden Adam was warned that on the day that he ate the forbidden fruit he would die.  That's when sin and death came into the world.  Jesus is god made flesh to become the blood sacrifice needed to put right the sins of the entire world.  He puts right what went wrong in Eden and the fallout from that.  That was his purpose and his mission and he fulfilled it completely.  

 

So, those who believe by faith that Jesus has done this are delivered from the wages of sin (death) and go to heaven.  Those who do not believe by faith are not delivered from their sins and therefore suffer the wages of sin (death).  Those sinners who died before judgement day are confined in Hades.  Then they are raised with imperishable bodies to face god's judgement. 

 

But wait a minute!

 

Why does god need to judge and punish these people?  They have already suffered the wages of sin when they were alive - spiritual separation from god, disease and decrepitude.  Then they suffered the wages of sin again when they physically died.  So, god should be finished with them and have no further punishment to inflict upon them.   They rejected Jesus' free gift and sacrifice and they have paid the due price for it.  That's it.  Over and done with.  God's one-for-one payment is done and satisfied and that should be the end of the matter.

 

But does god leave it there?  Nope.

 

Matthew 25 : 41

 

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 

 

This eternal fire is not the first death - it is the second death. 

 

Revelation 20 : 14

 

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

 

Jesus is the blood payment to satisfy the first death.  But the second death is a place prepared by god for Satan and his rebellious angels.  No rebel angel is ever offered Jesus' substitutionary payment for their sin.  That contract (covenant) is for humans only.  These are two completely separate ways in which god deals with sin.  They do not overlap.  Angels are spiritual beings who cannot suffer the physical wages of their sin as humans can.  They cannot age and become infirm.  They cannot suffer from disease.  And, last and most important, they cannot die physical deaths.

 

Therefore, god's punishment for them is to be cast into the lake of fire and suffer there forever.  Which raises the question - why does god want to consign humans to this place as well?  Sinful humans have already suffered their due punishment.  They have already reaped the wages of Adam's sin and their own sin.  

 

But it looks like god delights in inflicting unnecessary suffering on those who reject his son. If people have already reaped the wages of their sin during their lives and in their deaths, why does he inflict another, new punishment upon them?  One that was specifically designed for Satan and his angels?  As I have explained, the lake of fire is the only place that immortal, spiritual beings like angels can be made to suffer.  And yet god raises the sinful dead, clothing their spirits in new imperishable bodies so that they can suffer forever in bodies that can feel pain but never be consumed by the flames.  

 

Surely a more just solution is to leave the spirits of the dead where they chose to be - eternally separated from god and denied the rewards given to the faithful.  And that place is Hades.  But, no.  God isn't content to leave the dead as disembodied, sleeping spirits who are unaware of anything.  He wants them to be aware of their suffering forever.

 

And this is justice?  

 

 

 

(Sorry for the ramble.  I did say that my thinking on this was incomplete.  I hope I get the message across.)

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

A further question, to add to both of your thoughts, @DarkBishop and @walterpthefirst:

 

Why didn't god mention any of this in the Garden of Eden?

 

He told Adam he would surely die if he ate the fruit; but,  not once did he mention anything about eternal conscious torment.  Not one word about hellfire, brimstone, second death, or any of the rest of it?

 

Why?

 

When the fate of all of humanity hung in the delicate balance of what 2 naïve and ill-prepared people would choose, why would god withhold the most critical piece of information from them?

 

This further suggests that god delights in suffering, evil, and cruelty.  A truly loving god would have provided every last piece of information possible, to ensure the best possible choice was made.  But the christian god deliberately deceived them, by omitting critical data.

 

If the bible really is the inspired word of an omnipotent and omniscient god, then why does this god not mention the second death, hell, and the lake of fire from the very beginning?  By leaving this information out of the story of creation, the bible itself offers further evidence that its god is evil. 

 

Or, perhaps, the bible isn't the divine revelation it claims to be.  Perhaps it is just a book written by men; and the reason hell and the rest of it are only mentioned later is a reflection of the evolution of their thinking and religious ideology.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

40 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Or, perhaps, the bible isn't the divine revelation it claims to be.  Perhaps it is just a book written by men; and the reason hell and the rest of it are only mentioned later is a reflection of the evolution of their thinking and religious ideology.

 

RNP!!

 

Oh say it ain't so!! Thats silly tho!!! How could anyone possibly believe that all of that was the result of the natural evolution in human spiritual and cultural thought? Especially when it was only over the course of several thousand years? I mean I've been around over 40 years now and nothing has changed in cultural thought in America since I've been alive!!! 

 

 

 

DB

 

Edit: yes this is sarcasm. America is very different now than when I was growing up. And so is the world. The Bible makes so much more sense when you realize that it did evolve. It's no surprise that hades isn't mentioned in the old testament. Greek mythology of hades was a direct influence on religious thought at the time. Tada "Hell".

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Those are excellent questions, Prof.

 

Ones that are better answered by a Christian apologist than by me.  

 

 

However, picking up on your point of god about withholding important information from people and adding new, secret clauses to his contracts and covenants with them, what about poor Eve?

 

Before she ate the fruit god why didn't he warn her that he was going to greatly increase her birth pains?

 

And why didn't he tell her that her actions would be responsible for every child-bearing woman suffering in this way?

 

 

God was already up to his dishonest tricks from his very first dealings with human beings!

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

There's no record of god ever saying anything to Eve.  She got her information secondhand, presumably from Adam.  Of course, an omniscient god would know that Eve would be the one tempted by the Serpent; so, again, we're faced with another "why?"

 

Why would god not say anything at all to the very person he knew would face the ultimate test that would determine the fate of all the world?  

[Edgarcito]

2 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

But it looks like god delights in inflicting unnecessary suffering on those who reject his son. If people have already reaped the wages of their sin during their lives and in their deaths, why does he inflict another, new punishment upon them?  One that was specifically designed for Satan and his angels?  As I have explained, the lake of fire is the only place that immortal, spiritual beings like angels can be made to suffer.  And yet god raises the sinful dead, clothing their spirits in new imperishable bodies so that they can suffer forever in bodies that can feel pain but never be consumed by the flames.  

 

Surely a more just solution is to leave the spirits of the dead where they chose to be - eternally separated from god and denied the rewards given to the faithful.  And that place is Hades.  But, no.  God isn't content to leave the dead as disembodied, sleeping spirits who are unaware of anything.  He wants them to be aware of their suffering forever.

 

And this is justice?  

 

 

 

(Sorry for the ramble.  I did say that my thinking on this was incomplete.  I hope I get the message across.)

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

Very succinct answer Walter.  Reminds me of the old days.  Thank you.

 

I've likely told this story before but will repeat it.  My father was a Christian in his early days and then told me in his later years that he just couldn't believe any more....almost remorseful, but he just couldn't.  I think he died an agnostic...unsure about that, maybe atheist.  Anyhow, after he died, I had a dream where he came back.  I felt like, and I've felt like this before, that dead people get one trip back to visit, and then you are pretty much on the other side.  Anyhow he came back expressly to tell me that we were very lucky to have Jesus in the scheme.  Struck me as an unusual dream especially because Dad didn't believe.....but made the effort to tell me that he was essentially wrong.

 

Don't worry, I know that sounds crazy.  I'm not crazy, just wanted to share that as it has stuck with me for years now. 

 

I don't know that I know these why questions, but if it's true, it's appears to be a war in the spiritual world.

 

Thanks for the effort Walter. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

7 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Very succinct answer Walter.  Reminds me of the old days.  Thank you.

 

I've likely told this story before but will repeat it.  My father was a Christian in his early days and then told me in his later years that he just couldn't believe any more....almost remorseful, but he just couldn't.  I think he died an agnostic...unsure about that, maybe atheist.  Anyhow, after he died, I had a dream where he came back.  I felt like, and I've felt like this before, that dead people get one trip back to visit, and then you are pretty much on the other side.  Anyhow he came back expressly to tell me that we were very lucky to have Jesus in the scheme.  Struck me as an unusual dream especially because Dad didn't believe.....but made the effort to tell me that he was essentially wrong.

 

Don't worry, I know that sounds crazy.  I'm not crazy, just wanted to share that as it has stuck with me for years now. 

 

I don't know that I know these why questions, but if it's true, it's appears to be a war in the spiritual world.

 

Thanks for the effort Walter. 

Wow, that's pretty deep. I appreciate you sharing that. I can see why something like that would make you hold to that christian connection. 

 

I've heard many stories like these. Most likely its a vivid dream that becomes real in your mind. Something to attach to so you can still feel like they are alive. I've had a couple personal experiences along these lines. But they weren't concerning Christ. Or religion. Just having a dream so vivid that it stuck in my memory like it had actually happened. But some did concern spirits. I knew that in a couple instances they were spirits. 

 

I have to accept that most likely they are products of my imagination and subconscious mind. But some of those dreams are part of why I try to keep my mind open about the spiritual. 

 

DB

[◊ Weezer ◊]

4 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

 

Anyhow he came back expressly to tell me that we were very lucky to have Jesus in the scheme.  Struck me as an unusual dream especially because Dad didn't believe.....but made the effort to tell me that he was essentially wrong.

 

Thanks for telling that.  I am sure that meant a lot to you. 

 

I also believe we are lucky to have Jesus in the scheme.  At least the message of caring for each other and treating others with respect.  But did he tell you in the dream that Jesus was divine?  And that he believed in God?  Those are the things I can't reconcile with the study I have done.

[walterpthefirst]

Thank you for sharing that about your father, Ed.

 

I suppose to some degree we Ex-Christians are a bit like him.  We used to believe and then found that we couldn't any more.  No matter how much we tried.  Each of us will have had spiritual experiences of our own but we were ultimately unsatisfied with them because we couldn't square them with what the bible said.  There was a mismatch between the feelings of love and spirituality we felt and the unloving and unspiritual actions of god, as described in scripture.

 

And this thread is a case in point.

 

The bible calls Jesus the New Adam because he brought back to life the spirits of people who were dead to god.  That death (the first death) is the one god warned Adam about in Genesis 2.  This spiritual death caused Adam and Eve to be driven out of god's presence and they later died the physical deaths of their bodies.

 

That separation between god and man was put right and healed by Jesus at the moment he died.  If you look in the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke they all say that at that moment the temple curtain in Jerusalem was torn in two, from heaven down to earth.  Shortly after this came Pentecost when god's spirit came to dwell in the bodies of the believers, this spirit being their guarantee of resurrection and salvation.

 

Jesus' mission was over and that is why in John's gospel he said 'It is finished!' just before he died on the cross.  He knew that he had healed the separation between god and man that had started in Eden.  The first death had been defeated by his blood sacrifice.  The wages of sin are the first death and he was the substitutionary payment for that, freeing believers from the wages of their sin.  

 

Do you see how this works, Ed?

 

Believers no longer stay dead but rise, freed of their sins to join god in heaven.  The first death has no power over them.  Their sins are no longer taken into account.  In this scheme unbelievers, who do not have the holy spirit dwelling within them, have no way of rising from the dead.  They have lived in their sins, suffered for them in their lives and died in their sins.  So, for two reasons they cannot join god in heaven.

 

The first is that without god's direct intervention they remain as disembodied spirit in Hades and cannot rise from this, the first death.  The second is that even if they did rise they cannot enter heaven with their sins unforgiven.  And as we know from Adam and Eve's expulsion from Eden, god cannot tolerate the presence of sin.  There can be no sin in heaven.

 

Doesn't this sound fair and just to you?  God's mission was completed by Jesus and the first death no longer has any hold over the faithful.  They therefore receive exactly was promised by the prophets, who foretold what the Messiah would do.  Sinners also get exactly what was foretold, the punishment of eternal separation from god - which is the wages of their sin.  They are dead in their sins and they stay dead because they rejected Jesus, their only hope of escaping the first death.

 

Would you please comment on this, saying if you think that this is just and fair?

 

 Thank you,

 

Walter.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

My grandfather was not a particularly religious man.  He went to church; but church was about the only time he didn't have a beer in one hand and a cigarette in the other.  He also cussed like only a man who had gotten off the boat in Normandy on the 6th of June could cuss.

 

He had been in a coma for two weeks when grandma had a vision while resting in the waiting room. In her vision, she saw grandpa meandering around the farmyard, the ubiquitous beer and cigarette in hand.  He suddenly turned and began walking with purpose directly down the driveway.  At the mailbox, he took a left and started down the hill.  At this point, grandma ran out of the kitchen, hollering for him to come back.

 

When grandma reached the road, she saw that grandpa was nearly at the bottom of the hill, walking directly toward a man who seemed to be waiting for him there.  She described the man as either the youngest old man she'd ever seen, or the oldest young man she'd ever seen; she couldn't tell which.

 

The man put his arm on grandpa's shoulder and the two walked on together.  When they crossed over the bridge at the edge of my family's farm, that was the precise moment that the doctor recorded the Time of Death on my grandpa's chart.

 

It's certainly a touching story, no doubt.  It would make a great after school special on the PBS channel.  And I'm glad that my grandma believed what she saw, as it brought her great comfort in the autumnal years of her life.

 

But, ultimately, it is just another appeal to emotion that leaves the difficult questions unanswered. 

 

Dreams and visions are not messages from the other side.  They're not divine revelations, or angels speaking to us.  They're simply our brains' way of subconsciously processing events that occur in our lives.  Nothing more.

 

If attaching a deeper meaning brings you comfort, then by all means, proceed.  I need more than just a comforting self-deception, though.  Thanks for the distraction; now back to business, if you please.

[walterpthefirst]

Yes, it all fits together nicely.

 

If we look at Adam and Eve's punishments, everything has to do with ONLY their mortal lives and ONLY the first death.  

 

In Genesis 3 we read that...

 

1.  God cursed Eve with terrible pain when giving birth.

2. God changed her nature so that she would physically desire Adam.

3. God made her subordinate to Adam.

 

4. God cursed Adam to have to work hard for his food.

5. God cursed the soil so that it would produce thorns and thistles as well as food.

6. God cursed Adam to return to the dust because that's where he came from.

 

7. God expelled them from his presence in Eden.

8. God denied them access to the Tree of Life.

9. God would never again be physically present with them outside of Eden.

 

Points 1 through 5 and 7 through 9 covered their mortal lives.  These were punishments of their sin which they would have to endure until the day they (physically) died.  

 

Point 6 deals with the first death.  They lived, physically and spiritually separated from god and then they died, still physically and spiritually separated from god.  This is the first death. 

 

Adam came from the dust of the earth and then returned to it when he physically died.  But after the Fall all human beings come from each other and then go into the earth when they die.  So, the ultimate destination of all unsaved sinners is Hades, the place where their spirits stay in darkness, separated from god. 

 

Jesus died to put right and heal all 9 points.  Saved sinners do not stay in Hades but are raised and go to heaven.  The wages of their sins are paid for by Jesus and they also have the holy spirit within them, so they are fit to enter heaven.  Even if we say that saved people go directly to heaven and do not stay in Hades until judgment day - it still works.  All 9 points are put right by Jesus.  Whereas, unsaved sinners cannot go directly to heaven because they are still in their sins.

 

 

 

That's covers everything god mentioned or alluded to in Genesis 3.  But nowhere are the following points mentioned or alluded to by god to Adam and Eve, at the time when he laid these curses upon them.

 

1. That unforgiven sinners will be raised from the dead.

2. That god will create a 2nd death (the lake of fire) as a place to punish Satan and the fallen angels.

3. That unforgiven sinners will join them in the lake of fire.

4. That the first death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire.

 

These four things were added later on.  They are not part of god's original plan to end his physical and spiritual separation from human beings.  

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

23 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

That's covers everything god mentioned or alluded to in Genesis 3.  But nowhere are the following points mentioned or alluded to by god to Adam and Eve, at the time when he laid these curses upon them.

 

1. That unforgiven sinners will be raised from the dead.

2. That god will create a 2nd death (the lake of fire) as a place to punish Satan and the fallen angels.

3. That unforgiven sinners will join them in the lake of fire.

4. That the first death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire.

 

These four things were added later on.  They are not part of god's original plan to end his physical and spiritual separation from human beings.  

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 This alone is enough to at the very least not believe in the bibles Hell. I know I've mentioned it several times. But I can't stress enough how good Bart Ehrmanns "Heaven and Hell: A history of the afterlife", is. In that book he covers the evolution of both heaven and hell and what outside influences were involved. 

 

DB

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

My grandfather was not a particularly religious man.  He went to church; but church was about the only time he didn't have a beer in one hand and a cigarettein the other.  He also cussed like only a man who had gotten off the boat in Normandy on the 6th of June could cuss.

 

He had been in a coma for two weeks when grandma had a vision while resting in the waiting room. In her vision, she saw grandpa meandering around the farmyard, the ubiquitous beer and cigarette in hand.  He suddenly turned and began walking with purpose directly down the driveway.  At the mailbox, he took a left and starred down the hill.  At this point, grandma ran out of the kitchen, hollering for him to come back.

 

When grandma reached the road, she saw that grandpa was nearly at the bottom of the hill, walking directly toward a man who seemed to be waiting for him there.  She described the man as either the youngest old man she'd ever seen, or the oldest young man shed ever seen; she couldn't tell which.

 

The man put his arm on grandpa's shoulder and the two walked on together.  When they crossed over the bridge at the edge of my family's farm, that was the precise moment that the doctor recorded the Time of Death on my grandpa's chart.

 

It's certainly a touching story, no doubt.  It would make a great after school special on the PBS channel.  And I'm glad that my grandma believed what she saw, as it brought her great comfort in the autumnal years of her life.

 

But, ultimately, it is just another appeal to emotion that leaves the difficult questions unanswered. 

 

Dreams and visions are not messages from the other side.  They're not divine revelations, or angels speaking to us.  They're simply our brains' way of subconsciously processing events that occur in our lives.  Nothing more.

 

If attaching a deeper meaning brings you comfort, then by all means, proceed.  I need more than just a comforting self-deception, though.  Thanks for the distraction; now back to business, if you please.

I thought we were discussing morality.... not our brain's way.  I think it's certainly moral for my father to use his one trip back to warn his son, there's a spiritual war that I didn't know about and I was wrong, and you need to hang on to Jesus.

 

[Edgarcito]

45 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Yes, it all fits together nicely.

 

If we look at Adam and Eve's punishments, everything has to do with ONLY their mortal lives and ONLY the first death.  

 

In Genesis 3 we read that...

 

1.  God cursed Eve with terrible pain when giving birth.

2. God changed her nature so that she would physically desire Adam.

3. God made her subordinate to Adam.

 

4. God cursed Adam to have to work hard for his food.

5. God cursed the soil so that it would produce thorns and thistles as well as food.

6. God cursed Adam to return to the dust because that's where he came from.

 

7. God expelled them from his presence in Eden.

8. God denied them access to the Tree of Life.

9. God would never again be physically present with them outside of Eden.

 

Points 1 through 5 and 7 through 9 covered their mortal lives.  These were punishments of their sin which they would have to endure until the day they (physically) died.  

 

Point 6 deals with the first death.  They lived, physically and spiritually separated from god and then they died, still physically and spiritually separated from god.  This is the first death. 

 

Adam came from the dust of the earth and then returned to it when he physically died.  But after the Fall all human beings come from each other and then go into the earth when they die.  So, the ultimate destination of all unsaved sinners is Hades, the place where their spirits stay in darkness, separated from god. 

 

Jesus died to put right and heal all 9 points.  Saved sinners do not stay in Hades but are raised and go to heaven.  The wages of their sins are paid for by Jesus and they also have the holy spirit within them, so they are fit to enter heaven.  Even if we say that saved people go directly to heaven and do not stay in Hades until judgment day - it still works.  All 9 points are put right by Jesus.  Whereas, unsaved sinners cannot go directly to heaven because they are still in their sins.

 

 

 

That's covers everything god mentioned or alluded to in Genesis 3.  But nowhere are the following points mentioned or alluded to by god to Adam and Eve, at the time when he laid these curses upon them.

 

1. That unforgiven sinners will be raised from the dead.

2. That god will create a 2nd death (the lake of fire) as a place to punish Satan and the fallen angels.

3. That unforgiven sinners will join them in the lake of fire.

4. That the first death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire.

 

These four things were added later on.  They are not part of god's original plan to end his physical and spiritual separation from human beings.  

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

RNP asked why.  I think this post is a good time to speculate why God enacted these punishments.  

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

13 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I thought we were discussing morality.... not our brain's way.  I think it's certainly moral for my father to use his one trip back to warn his son, there's a spiritual war that I didn't know about and I was wrong, and you need to hang on to Jesus.

 

Is that what he was saying? I mean biblically if he lost faith he lost salvation just as biblically we are also headed for hell. This is most likely a vision that your subconscious made up. Not that your father actually defied death to come for a visit with his son. If this is the biggest thing keeping you in the faith. It is based on something that probably never happened. But that is about like most of the bible. So I guess it is as good a reason to believe as any. 

 

DB

[TheRedneckProfessor]

20 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I thought we were discussing morality.... not our brain's way.  I think it's certainly moral for my father to use his one trip back to warn his son, there's a spiritual war that I didn't know about and I was wrong, and you need to hang on to Jesus.

 

I'm sure your father was a good man, as was my grandfather.  But dreams and visions have nothing to do with morality.  They are our brains' way.  Your father didn't visit you; your brain processed some of the grief and emotion you were going through and wrapped it up in a nice comfy blanket for you.  Our brains are nice and kind like that... sometimes. 

[Edgarcito]

23 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I'm sure your father was a good man, as was my grandfather.  But dreams and visions have nothing to do with morality.  They are our brains' way.  Your father didn't visit you; your brain processed some of the grief and emotion you were going through and wrapped it up in a nice comfy blanket for you.  Our brains are nice and kind like that... sometimes. 

I'm reasonably certain they do.  In this case, regardless of where the dream came from, it helps me frame my father in a more pleasing way than divorce an abandonment.  And helps me choose moral behavior rather than hate.....sometimes.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I'm reasonably certain they do.  In this case, regardless of where the dream came from, it helps me frame my father in a more pleasing way than divorce an abandonment.  And helps me choose moral behavior rather than hate.....sometimes.

Then, by all means, sir, proceed. 

[walterpthefirst]

47 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I thought we were discussing morality.... not our brain's way.  I think it's certainly moral for my father to use his one trip back to warn his son, there's a spiritual war that I didn't know about and I was wrong, and you need to hang on to Jesus.

 

 

But there's a problem with this as far as biblical Christianity goes, Ed.

 

God has forbidden the spirits of the dead from contacting the living.  The penalty for any medium or witch doing this was death.  Look at the episode where King Saul went to the witch of Endor and asked her to bring the spirit of the dead prophet Samuel.

 

1 Samuel 28 : 3 - 20.

 

3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.

4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all Israel and set up camp at Gilboa. 

5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 

6 He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 

7 Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.”

“There is one in Endor,” they said.

8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”

9 But the woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?”

10 Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As surely as the Lord lives, you will not be punished for this.”

11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”

“Bring up Samuel,” he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”

13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”

The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.”

14 “What does he look like?” he asked.

“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.

Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”

16 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 

17 The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbours—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”

20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel’s words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and all that night.

 

It was forbidden by god, on pain of death, for mediums to consult the spirits of the dead.

 

Deuteronomy 18 : 9 - 13.

 

9 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 

10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 

11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 

12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. 

13 You must be blameless before the Lord your God.

 

Leviticus 20 : 27

 

 

“‘A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.’”

 

Leviticus 19 : 31

 

“‘Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God.

 

Leviticus 20 : 6

 

“‘I will set my face against anyone who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute themselves by following them, and I will cut them off from their people.

 

So what you took for the spirit of your father cannot have been such.  

 

At least, not according to scripture.

 

 

[pantheory]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

RNP asked why.  I think this post is a good time to speculate why God enacted these punishments.  

 

Cheers for all the good stories above

 

Although I have lots of "good" stories, none have a religious bend to them. As to your question Edgarcity, God did nothing if the Bible is simply a story for the gullible. The others above were not asking why such a God would say such things, they were trying to point out the lack of logic that the Bible contains -- not that there is a God that said such things.

 

Comments:

 

1) the writings of the Bible were translated though several different languages before they became English or any modern language. As anybody who knows more than one language realizes, that intended meanings often cannot be translated word for word, often the intended meaning must be said in a different way. Sometimes the intended meaning cannot be translated at all without probable misinterpretation, unless extended additional explanations are given concerning the translation -- even then something different can be wrongly interpreted.

 

2) The writers of the Bible were made by men, and certainly the stories of the Bible are not coming from God if the stories of Genesis and Revelation can easily be disproved.

 

3) We know of a great many books that were not included in the New Testament because of the decisions of the Council of Nicaea. This was because of the quest for consistency within the New Testament. And we don’t know what rabbinical councils made similar decisions concerning books of the Old Testament – none were included that could contradict the other parts IMHO.

 

4) And lastly, God and his son are just fantasies based upon of the writings of the Books of Genesis and Revelation as being prime examples of fantasy.

 

 

[Edgarcito]

13 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

But there's a problem with this as far as biblical Christianity goes, Ed.

 

God has forbidden the spirits of the dead from contacting the living.  The penalty for any medium or witch doing this was death.  Look at the episode where King Saul went to the witch of Endor and asked her to bring the spirit of the dead prophet Samuel.

 

1 Samuel 28 : 3 - 20.

 

3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.

4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all Israel and set up camp at Gilboa. 

5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 

6 He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 

7 Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.”

“There is one in Endor,” they said.

8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”

9 But the woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?”

10 Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As surely as the Lord lives, you will not be punished for this.”

11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”

“Bring up Samuel,” he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”

13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”

The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.”

14 “What does he look like?” he asked.

“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.

Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”

16 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 

17 The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbours—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”

20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel’s words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and all that night.

 

It was forbidden by god, on pain of death, for mediums to consult the spirits of the dead.

 

Deuteronomy 18 : 9 - 13.

 

9 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 

10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 

11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 

12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. 

13 You must be blameless before the Lord your God.

 

Leviticus 20 : 27

 

 

“‘A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.’”

 

Leviticus 19 : 31

 

“‘Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God.

 

Leviticus 20 : 6

 

“‘I will set my face against anyone who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute themselves by following them, and I will cut them off from their people.

 

So what you took for the spirit of your father cannot have been such.  

 

At least, not according to scripture.

 

 

Thanks for the effort Walter.....I don't see myself as a medium, spiritualist, nor seeked the encounter.   Dad damn sure wasn't lol.

[walterpthefirst]

9 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Thanks for the effort Walter.....I don't see myself as a medium, spiritualist, nor seeked the encounter.   Dad damn sure wasn't lol.

 

You're missing the point, Ed.

 

Which is that the dead do not appear to the living of their own will.

 

They have to be called up or summoned, by a witch or a medium.

 

So, according to the bible your father's spirit could not have visited you in a dream.

 

Because there was no medium involved to bring his spirit to you.

 

Therefore, according to biblical Christianity, what you saw when you dreamt was not the spirit of your dead father.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.