☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted January 29, 2023 Posted January 29, 2023 What constitutes evidence in/of Christianity? A lot of times when discussing topics here in the den the words subjective and objective evidence comes up. Subjective evidences are those evidences that are solely reliant on the experiences, beliefs, and feelings of an individual. Objective evidences are based on fact and would be something that could be verified in some way. The Bible gives many examples of various evidences that we should be able to look for. One of which is how to know if a person is actually a Christian. Jesus says in: Mathew 7 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. In this Jesus is talking about false prophets but this can also be applied to a faithful Christian. Also reflected in the book of James. James 2 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Here we see some key wording in the bible. It shows us that there is something expected of the faithful. Just as Jesus said in Mathew 7, a good tree will bear good fruit. Also a Christian will work the works of Christ. It is a necessity to work the work of Christ to retain your salvation according to the bible. Or atleast that is what I see here. This is not what all Christian churches believe. But it is what I believed and what I taught as a preacher in my old church. Either way, a Change is expected in a newly converted Christian. It even asks the question can faith alone save you? The answer is no. This causes confusion in some denominations because of what is said in Ephesians chapter 2. Ephesians 2. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Here we see that it is said that salvation is a gift and not a gift obtained by works. Which is true biblically. But notice that it also says that ye are saved through faith. While biblically no one can be saved by their works alone and they must go through faith in Christ to receive the gift of salvation. There is work to be done after salvation and faith. And if those works aren't there. Faith is dead. And if faith is dead without works, salvation is lost. Biblically it is freely given but must be maintained afterward by living the life of Christ. Also in ephesians we get a pretty good example of the fruits of a Christian. Ephesian 4 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil. 28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. Notice that there is to be an obvious change in a Christian. His demeanor changes. The man that was once a thief will now work honestly to aide those in need. Laying down his wrath, anger, and evil speaking. To be kind, tender hearted, and forgiving. It is also taught in scripture that this change is caused by the Holy spirit working in a person. Galatians 5 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. Biblically, a person reflecting all of this criteria should be considered a Christian. In a way this is objective evidence as it can be observed and witnessed. I would even consider them a Christian, if they said they were and reflected a Christian walk in their lives. A believer observing a fellow believer would conclude that this person was in fact a Christian based on the criteria set forth by their savior and the apostles. But is that enough to prove that Christianity is true? No, not at all. While I will admit that this is the very evidence that a Christian could give us. It only reflects a change in mentality that comes with Indoctrination. This same type of change could be seen in someone who decides to start practicing Buddhism. Some of the kindest people I've known have been Hindu. In my youth I was interested in Wicca. I met some people during this time who had a deep and profound respect and love for nature. This was core to their beliefs. Anyone can have a change in consciousness and become a better person. One of the mottos of my fraternity is: "Taking good men and making them better". There is great wisdom in the lectures of masonry that teach us to be better people. To consider others and what they may be going through before jumping to conclusions and not to let religious differences affect how we treat one another. Many other religions, beliefs, and practices promote the values that Christians are expected to uphold. So while these observations may be enough for a fellow Christian within the church to determine legitimate faith. It doesn't indicate that Christianity itself is true. Only that the believers are changed by Christian teachings. As with any other faith, fraternity, or ideology. For the question of whether or not Christianity is true, this is only more subjective evidence based on the emotions, beliefs, and experiences of the individual in question. It only proves that they believe what is written in the bible and apply those teachings to their lives. The only difference between the examples listed above of other faiths and that of a Christian, is faith in Christ. Let's go over what it says in Hebrews 11 about faith being evidence. 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. I thought about posting the whole chapter because after verse two it goes into giving the faithful examples of Jewish elders in the bible. Abel, noah, Abraham, Enoch, Moses, and several others. And I would urge anyone reading this post to read the whole chapter. It just seems unnecessary to post the whole chapter in the OP. In the rest of the chapter they present the experiences of the elders as fact. They assumed (at the time) that all of these events happened. Not by faith but because it was written. They thought that these people existed and that they did all these things through their faith because these characters were written into the Bible. They felt that these were factual events that resulted from faith. They didn't have the means to verify the narrative like we do today. In reality none of these things have been able to be verified through archeology or any other method of obtaining objective proof. And most of the time what they have been able to find told a very different story than what has been written into the bible. Abel is the son of Adam and Eve who were characters in the mythological story of creation. Our discoveries do not reflect a creation anything like what is depicted in the bible. There is a mountain of verifiable evidence that the "world wide" flood of Noah depicted in Genesis never happened. There is proof of smaller localized and coastal flooding which is believed to be the inspiration for Noah's flood and other flood myths. Geologist have searched the world for evidence of a world wide flood a d have come up empty handed. There is very little proof that Moses ever existed or that the exodus ever happened. Though initially archeologists set out using the bible as a guide to find evidence of the exodus. That evidence has eluded their grasp. I watched a documentary on it one time that ended up highlighting the absence of evidence for the exodus. However to appease the masses (IMO) it was said that if it had happened that the Egyptians would have erased it. I've heard other Christians quote the same to support their belief in the narrative. The problem with that is that when Egyptians erased something like that from their history, they literally chiseled the Hieroglyphics from the wall that told the story. They also don't see where it would have been erased. The logical conclusion is that it just didn't happen and there was nothing to erase. There is no verifiable proof of Abraham or Isaac. Oh I'm sure that there were some actual people with some of these names that inspired the myths and legends that came to be. But we can go through each example that is given in Hebrews 11 and conclude that there is no sufficient evidence to prove that any of those things happened. Had they known during that time that these events couldn't be proven I doubt that Hebrews 11 would ever have been written. They wrote about them as factual examples of the faith of others who (unknowingly to the writer) probably never existed. Had archeologists and scientist been able to prove that these people and events existed. Like they have been able to do with other events in history. This chapter would have been fairly good evidence for the case of the biblical God. However, that proof has never been found. Therefore, this chapter has only become more fuel for the argument against the bible and its God. Another question could be: Is someone's adherence to their faith enough to prove that the Christian God is real? We've all heard the stories of Apostles, Saints, and Christians in general being persecuted, tortured, and killed. All the while proclaiming their faith in Christ. Would this be objective evidence? Again, NO. This is another result of indoctrination and belief in one's faith and has been mirrored in every persecution against every faith in the world. Including those who Christians persecuted, tortured, and killed themselves. Not to mention, Christians have an extra incentive not to falter in their faith in the face of persecution. Mathew 24 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. As with the works mentioned before. If a Christian doesn't keep his faith even while being tortured and killed, biblically they are in danger of eternal punishment in Hell. Such a loving God right? As my friend @TABA mentioned to me. It is this same mentality that Islamic extremists had when flying planes into building on 9/11. Not so much the fear of Hell in that instance. But the Carrot of heaven to look forward to when the job was complete. I doubt anyone in Christendom would say Islam is true because of the actions of those faithful believers would they? But are these things the only evidence that could be presented? Many Christians come here claiming the Christian God is real and the Bible is true because of something they perceive as a miraculous event in their lives. They or a loved one was cured of cancer, they were in a car wreck that should have killed them, or something to that effect. When I was a Bishop in the Gospel assembly one of my fellow brothers in the ministry was very ill. He got to the point he was fed up and decided to put his health in God's hands and went off all his meds. Low and behold the next thing we knew he was walking again and off oxygen. He claimed victory for Jesus initially but in time it came out that they had prescribed him medicines that were not intended to be mixed. Still, I would attest that miracles could in fact be proof if those miracles were. 1. Exclusive to Christians And 2. Reflected what Jesus prophesied would happen after him. Concerning the 1st point. Miracles like what I just mentioned are not exclusive to Christianity but can be claimed by people of different faiths all over the world. Most of these miracles have perfectly natural explanations as well. More interestingly, concerning this topic, Jesus gave clear indication that miracles in his name would continue even after he was gone. If one could prove that this is the case then it would be good objective evidence right? Well let's see what Jesus said. Let's go back to Mathew 7 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? Jesus promised that through faithful prayer that God would answer in kind. Christians will often say that God doesn't answer all prayers because he knows something we don't. And I would tend to agree that there are prayers and circumstances where an all knowing God would not answer a prayer. But the problem lies in the fact that God is more in the business of not answering prayers than he is in answering them. Or atleast that is what appears to be the case. Another reason for unanswered prayers given by Christians is "not enough faith". According to scripture this isn't an excuse. Jesus says this in Matthew 17:20 "for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." A mustard seed is a very VERY small seed. So if a Christian can supposedly move a literal mountain with a small amount of faith and nothing will be impossible to them. Think of what someone strong in faith should be able to do. Seriously, think about it. @TheRedneckProfessor brought up the story on another thread of a young girl who was abducted, raped, and killed. She and her parents were Christian. And I know having been a Christian that her parents, her whole family, and probably their whole Christian community prayed for her safe return. This is one prayer that a Loving Christian God should answer if he were real. And this is just one instance. There are children starving and being abused daily. Many of them probably crying to God for help with no answer. Why? Think of any of the atrocities we can see on the news or in our day to day lives and really reflect on it. Many of these things are happening to people that are "God's people". Where are the answered prayers in this world? They just don't seem to be there do they? Therefore this evidence provided by Jesus also fails to provide an adequate defense and objective proof for the bible's God. What else did Jesus say? John 14 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Verse 12 is the key verse here. He that believes in Jesus will not only do the works that Jesus did. But will be able to do greater works. It doesn't say that only his apostles would be able to do this. Some denominations try to say those days ended when the apostles died. But the bible says he that believes on Jesus would be able to do these things. That would include any and all Christians. And to top it off Jesus gives a reason why Christians will be able to do these things. "That the father may be glorified in the son". Sounds good right? Let's do a quick review of some of the works of Jesus. Healed the sick, blind, lame, and even cured leprosy. Fed thousands of people with a loaf of bread and a few fish. Miraculously multiplied it until everyone had their fill. Walked on open water Raised Lazarus from the dead Was resurrected himself and ascended to heaven. Jesus said that those people that believed on him would not only be able to do all of that, but greater works than he did. If this had been true and actually happened in today's time. It would be good objective evidence that what the Bible says is true. Alas, once again this is not the case. Half the world is Christian. Hunger should be gone from all the Christians multiplying food for the hungry. Sicknesses should be miraculously cured daily. Cancer? Aids? Hepatitis? Covid 19? No problem. Go to the nearest Christian. Let them lay hands on you, Anointing you with oil, and you'll be cured. But that doesn't really happen does it? I know I tried many times as a believer and minister to follow the bibles methods of healing with nothing miraculous to recount. According to Jesus the world should be seeing these types of miracles coming from Christendom. Yet again, that is not what happened or is happening today. Even though Jesus himself said that it would happen. BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE!!! There is one more thing that I've thought about and if the bible were true, it would be evident in the world today. Referencing verse 15-17 in John 14 from earlier Jesus makes a promise to send Christians some help. John 14 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Jesus promises to send them the Holy Ghost to comfort his people and guide them in spirit and truth. We already covered how a change in a person's demeanor and actions can be perceived as evidence of the Holy Ghost according to a Christian. But is that all that the Holy Ghost has to offer for evidence according to the bible? No it isn't. 1 corinthians 12 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. The gifts of the spirit. Prophesy Tongues Interpretation of tongues Healing Wisdom Miracles Knowledge Discerning of spirits While all these gifts may be claimed by the church....... they aren't really evident are they? I mean sure.... wisdom, knowledge, and maybe even discerning of spirits. I mean I'm not even religious and I can usually read people pretty well. But I'm not sure thats the type of spiritual discerning it is talking about. Most of the time, if you do hear a supposed prophesy, it ends up not coming to fruition. If it is considered fulfilled it is usually some vague prophecy that is proclaimed to be a fulfillment according to some persons interpretation. But there is really no extraordinary prophecies that have come true which we can verify. I doubt every one that reads this post have even heard tongues. Let alone the "Interpretation" of tongues. I have and honestly I wasn't impressed and I thought it was ridiculous. Also there is no way currently to prove that what was said was interpreted correctly outside of the mind of the interpreter. The Bible gave many examples of objective evidence that a Christian "should" be able to show us heathens. But the only thing Christians have been able to show us, is the subjective evidence reflected in personal Christian Indoctrination and the change in behavior. While I agree that the Bible says that this is the evidence of a Christian. The Bible and Jesus himself also said there should be more evidence. There actually should be objective evidence. The Bible gives many examples of things we should be able to verify and we weren't/aren't able to. It gives many examples of things Christians should be capable of, but they aren't. The Bible fails at every turn to prove itself true and the biblical God is seemingly powerless to prove his own existence. And that isn't a God worth worshipping in my opinion. It definitely does not reflect the Jealous, All powerful, All Knowing, All Loving, and ever present God depicted in the bible. Thank you, Dark Bishop 1 4
walterpthefirst Posted January 29, 2023 Posted January 29, 2023 Jesus says this in Matthew 17:20 "for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." A mustard seed is a very VERY small seed. So if a Christian can supposedly move a literal mountain with a small amount of faith and nothing will be impossible to them. Think of what someone strong in faith should be able to do. Seriously, think about it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A little further on in Matthew (chapter 21, verse 21) Jesus says something similar. Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. So, is there any objective historical evidence of mountains being thrown into the sea by the faith of Christian believers? Thus far I have only found objective evidence of mountains sliding into the sea and there appears to be no apparent connection between these events and the faith of Christian believers. The mountains in question appear to have slid into the sea as the result of natural forces, with gravity, earthquakes or human activity being the main culprits. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958_Lituya_Bay_earthquake_and_megatsunami https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajont_Dam https://www.livescience.com/25293-hawaii-giant-tsunami-landslides.html However, I will keep looking for objective evidence of mountains throwing themselves into the sea. Thank you, Walter. 2
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted January 29, 2023 Author Posted January 29, 2023 32 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: However, I will keep looking for objective evidence of mountains throwing themselves into the sea. Mount St. Helen's blew its top off back in 1980. But I don't think it had anything to do with God or prayer. I bet if it had happened 2000 years ago they would of thought it did tho. Lmao
walterpthefirst Posted January 30, 2023 Posted January 30, 2023 Two further points have occurred to me DB, both relating to mountains throwing themselves into or sliding into the sea. Firstly, it strikes me as somewhat strange that Jesus didn't seem to know about the dangers of the Megatsunamis that happen when mountains throw themselves into the sea. An all knowing god should surely know about this hazard and surely wouldn't want any of his followers to create such a major catastrophe. Especially as a demonstration of one person's faith. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_crater The impact, expansion of water after filling the crater, and related seismic activity spawned megatsunamis over 100 meters (330 ft) tall, with one simulation suggesting the immediate waves from the impact may have reached up to 1.5 kilometers (0.93 mi) high. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesapeake_Bay_impact_crater The surrounding region suffered massive devastation. USGS scientist David Powars, one of the impact crater's discoverers, described the immediate aftermath: "Within minutes, millions of tons of water, sediment, and shattered rock were cast high into the atmosphere for hundreds of miles along the East Coast." An enormous megatsunami engulfed the land and possibly even reached the Blue Ridge Mountains. While an asteroid impact has much more kinetic energy than a mountain throwing itself into the sea, the latter event would still be highly destructive and would be the cause of much death and destruction. That seems to be a very high price to pay to demonstrate the faith of a single believer. Secondly, if a Christian believer can cause a mountain to throw itself into the sea by faith alone, then what about a reverse application of the same process? This time, not causing the death of millions, but saving them. Surely a Christian believer could use their mountain-moving faith to prevent such a catastrophe from taking place? And there is just such a place where this could be done. Or even might have been done. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbre_Vieja_tsunami_hazard Computer models of a flank collapse of the Cumbre Vieja volcano on the Canary Island of La Palma suggest that it would generate a megatsunami that would devastate the coastlines of Europe, Africa and the Americas, causing millions to die. As this video shows, the flank of the mountain began to move in 1949 - and then came to an abrupt halt. Is this objective evidence that a Christian used their mountain-moving faith to stop a potential disaster in its tracks? To find out we would have to discover the following three things. 1. If a Christian with sufficiently strong, mountain-moving faith was aware that the mountain was about to collapse into the sea. If god had imparted this knowledge to them in a dream, via an angel or via a still, small voice then there would be no record of this. These supernatural forms of communication leave no physical traces that can be examined at a later date. But if there existed some physical form of evidence - a written note signed by god himself, a telegram from heaven or a recording of the telephone call god made to this Christian, these would be bona fide objective evidence that a Christian would have been aware of the impending disaster. 2. Since the bible only talks about mountains being thrown into the sea at the behest of faithful Christians, a believer might interpret this to mean that this is the only thing they can do with a mountain. But would they have the imagination to go beyond a literal reading of scripture? To realize that if their faith was strong enough to cause a mountain to be thrown into the sea then it must also be strong to prevent a mountain sliding into the sea? This is a big ask. Not because any mountain is too big for their faith to stop it from sliding into the sea. No. It's a big ask because a Christian with a literalist mindset will find it next to impossible to think outside of that literalist box. Therefore, even if this faithful Christian was made aware by god that the Cumbre Vieja was about to slide into the sea, god would probably also have to instruct them to go beyond the literal meaning of his Word and use their faith in the opposite way it was described in the gospel of Matthew. "Don't use your faith to throw a mountain into the sea, use your faith to stop THAT mountain from sliding into the Atlantic ocean." But the same problems illustrated in point # 1 still apply here. How do we find any physical evidence of god communicating this to the Christian? 3. Finally, could we definitively establish that the stoppage of the volcano's collapse into the sea in 1949 was due to the faith of a Christian believer OR due to entirely natural forces? In the bible miraculous events are sometimes seen to completely defy the normal behaviour of the natural world. The way god caused the waters of the Red Sea to 'stand up like a wall' so that the 12 twelve tribes of Israel could cross without getting their feet wet being a good example. But stopping of the volcano's collapse is not such a clear cut example. No natural laws were seen to be violated. Gravity was not suspended but behaved normally. Rock behaved like rock and didn't float on air. Nothing supernatural was observed, measured or recorded. So, the jury is still out on this one. We cannot say one way or the other. Summing up, it seems that we can discover no objective evidence to support any of the three points discussed above. However, on the subject of faith throwing mountains into the sea or stopping mountains from sliding into the sea, I would like to leave you with one more thought. If some Christians have possessed this amount of faith during the 2,000 years that have elapsed since biblical times, why is it that god hasn't employed them to prevent other natural disasters and so glorify his name and prove his existence with such incontrovertible objective evidence? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_natural_disasters_by_death_toll Thank you, Walter. 1
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted January 30, 2023 Super Moderator Posted January 30, 2023 I contend that jesus originally said the opposite: that if you had faith the size of a mountain, you could cast a mustard seed into the sea. But when the scribes and priests finally got around to writing it all down they realized, "Well that's not very impressive, now, is it?" So they flip-flopped it; and now jesus looks like a big ol' liar, even though he meant well. Bless his heart. 3
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted January 30, 2023 Author Posted January 30, 2023 13 hours ago, walterpthefirst said: Two further points have occurred to me DB, both relating to mountains throwing themselves into or sliding into the sea. Firstly, it strikes me as somewhat strange that Jesus didn't seem to know about the dangers of the Megatsunamis that happen when mountains throw themselves into the sea. An all knowing god should surely know about this hazard and surely wouldn't want any of his followers to create such a major catastrophe. Especially as a demonstration of one person's faith. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_crater The impact, expansion of water after filling the crater, and related seismic activity spawned megatsunamis over 100 meters (330 ft) tall, with one simulation suggesting the immediate waves from the impact may have reached up to 1.5 kilometers (0.93 mi) high. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesapeake_Bay_impact_crater The surrounding region suffered massive devastation. USGS scientist David Powars, one of the impact crater's discoverers, described the immediate aftermath: "Within minutes, millions of tons of water, sediment, and shattered rock were cast high into the atmosphere for hundreds of miles along the East Coast." An enormous megatsunami engulfed the land and possibly even reached the Blue Ridge Mountains. While an asteroid impact has much more kinetic energy than a mountain throwing itself into the sea, the latter event would still be highly destructive and would be the cause of much death and destruction. That seems to be a very high price to pay to demonstrate the faith of a single believer. Secondly, if a Christian believer can cause a mountain to throw itself into the sea by faith alone, then what about a reverse application of the same process? This time, not causing the death of millions, but saving them. Surely a Christian believer could use their mountain-moving faith to prevent such a catastrophe from taking place? And there is just such a place where this could be done. Or even might have been done. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbre_Vieja_tsunami_hazard Computer models of a flank collapse of the Cumbre Vieja volcano on the Canary Island of La Palma suggest that it would generate a megatsunami that would devastate the coastlines of Europe, Africa and the Americas, causing millions to die. As this video shows, the flank of the mountain began to move in 1949 - and then came to an abrupt halt. Is this objective evidence that a Christian used their mountain-moving faith to stop a potential disaster in its tracks? To find out we would have to discover the following three things. 1. If a Christian with sufficiently strong, mountain-moving faith was aware that the mountain was about to collapse into the sea. If god had imparted this knowledge to them in a dream, via an angel or via a still, small voice then there would be no record of this. These supernatural forms of communication leave no physical traces that can be examined at a later date. But if there existed some physical form of evidence - a written note signed by god himself, a telegram from heaven or a recording of the telephone call god made to this Christian, these would be bona fide objective evidence that a Christian would have been aware of the impending disaster. 2. Since the bible only talks about mountains being thrown into the sea at the behest of faithful Christians, a believer might interpret this to mean that this is the only thing they can do with a mountain. But would they have the imagination to go beyond a literal reading of scripture? To realize that if their faith was strong enough to cause a mountain to be thrown into the sea then it must also be strong to prevent a mountain sliding into the sea? This is a big ask. Not because any mountain is too big for their faith to stop it from sliding into the sea. No. It's a big ask because a Christian with a literalist mindset will find it next to impossible to think outside of that literalist box. Therefore, even if this faithful Christian was made aware by god that the Cumbre Vieja was about to slide into the sea, god would probably also have to instruct them to go beyond the literal meaning of his Word and use their faith in the opposite way it was described in the gospel of Matthew. "Don't use your faith to throw a mountain into the sea, use your faith to stop THAT mountain from sliding into the Atlantic ocean." But the same problems illustrated in point # 1 still apply here. How do we find any physical evidence of god communicating this to the Christian? 3. Finally, could we definitively establish that the stoppage of the volcano's collapse into the sea in 1949 was due to the faith of a Christian believer OR due to entirely natural forces? In the bible miraculous events are sometimes seen to completely defy the normal behaviour of the natural world. The way god caused the waters of the Red Sea to 'stand up like a wall' so that the 12 twelve tribes of Israel could cross without getting their feet wet being a good example. But stopping of the volcano's collapse is not such a clear cut example. No natural laws were seen to be violated. Gravity was not suspended but behaved normally. Rock behaved like rock and didn't float on air. Nothing supernatural was observed, measured or recorded. So, the jury is still out on this one. We cannot say one way or the other. Summing up, it seems that we can discover no objective evidence to support any of the three points discussed above. However, on the subject of faith throwing mountains into the sea or stopping mountains from sliding into the sea, I would like to leave you with one more thought. If some Christians have possessed this amount of faith during the 2,000 years that have elapsed since biblical times, why is it that god hasn't employed them to prevent other natural disasters and so glorify his name and prove his existence with such incontrovertible objective evidence? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_natural_disasters_by_death_toll Thank you, Walter. Great Points Walter!!!! You would also think that if it was a Christian with mountain moving faith that they would have claimed responsibility for this miracle in the name of Christ. After all, the whole purpose of a Christian having access to this mountain moving supernatural faith is so that God can be glorified in the son! It is a shame that out of all of these people who died as a result of this tsunami none of them were Christians with mountain moving faith. I can only imagine how many Hindu and Muslim citizens would have converted had they seen the power of God save them form this certain death. DB https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Indian_Ocean_earthquake_and_tsunami
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted January 30, 2023 Author Posted January 30, 2023 Ooooopppssss, my bad. There were Christians there.... I guess none of them had that mountain moving faith. https://www.ucanews.com/story-archive/?post_name=/2004/12/27/tsunami-deaths-in-southern-india-near-6000-include-vailankanni-pilgrims&post_id=25167 A Jesus style life saving miracle probably would of helped the conversion efforts of these kind Christians offering aid. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2005/jan/16/tsunami2004.internationalaidanddevelopment1 Thanks, DB
walterpthefirst Posted January 30, 2023 Posted January 30, 2023 3 hours ago, DarkBishop said: Ooooopppssss, my bad. There were Christians there.... I guess none of them had that mountain moving faith. https://www.ucanews.com/story-archive/?post_name=/2004/12/27/tsunami-deaths-in-southern-india-near-6000-include-vailankanni-pilgrims&post_id=25167 A Jesus style life saving miracle probably would of helped the conversion efforts of these kind Christians offering aid. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2005/jan/16/tsunami2004.internationalaidanddevelopment1 Thanks, DB Oh come along, DB! Get your priorities right. The priest denied a news report saying tidal waves entered the "Lourdes of the East," as the shrine is called by many, after the Marian shrine famous for healing in Lourdes, France. "There is no damage to the church. Not even a single drop of water entered it," he said. Thousands of people died, including Christians... but at least the shrine itself was miraculously untouched. Praise the Lord! 1
walterpthefirst Posted January 30, 2023 Posted January 30, 2023 15 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: I contend that jesus originally said the opposite: that if you had faith the size of a mountain, you could cast a mustard seed into the sea. But when the scribes and priests finally got around to writing it all down they realized, "Well that's not very impressive, now, is it?" So they flip-flopped it; and now jesus looks like a big ol' liar, even though he meant well. Bless his heart. Well I never, Prof. I think you've just solved it. The scribes spiced the life of Jesus up by reversing what was written about him. So, originally he fed seven people with five thousand fish and walked on the land, not the water. And originally, instead of raising Lazarus and the others from death he euthanized them. Turning wine into water was still a good trick, tho'. 1
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted January 30, 2023 Author Posted January 30, 2023 28 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: Oh come along, DB! Get your priorities right. The priest denied a news report saying tidal waves entered the "Lourdes of the East," as the shrine is called by many, after the Marian shrine famous for healing in Lourdes, France. "There is no damage to the church. Not even a single drop of water entered it," he said. Thousands of people died, including Christians... but at least the shrine itself was miraculously untouched. Praise the Lord! Oh my!!! I think there may have been some fine print in the promises of God that I mentioned in the OP then. John 14 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. ( All miracles subject to Godly approval and miracle like powers can be denied for any and all reasons conceivable. Except in the event of the potential destruction of God's buildings, churches, or any real property considered to be God's.These will be saved above all else. Praise be the Lord. Good Luck!) 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. (...............Maybe......) 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you (If I feel like it. Please don't ask for much on any day that ends in Y. Me n Dad need rest)
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted January 30, 2023 Super Moderator Posted January 30, 2023 2 hours ago, DarkBishop said: Oh my!!! I think there may have been some fine print in the promises of God that I mentioned in the OP then. All* who call on the name of the lord shall be saved. *Individual results may vary. 2
Moderator Joshpantera Posted February 3, 2023 Moderator Posted February 3, 2023 On 1/29/2023 at 10:33 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said: I contend that jesus originally said the opposite: that if you had faith the size of a mountain, you could cast a mustard seed into the sea. But when the scribes and priests finally got around to writing it all down they realized, "Well that's not very impressive, now, is it?" So they flip-flopped it; and now jesus looks like a big ol' liar, even though he meant well. Bless his heart. Winning post!!!! 1
walterpthefirst Posted February 6, 2023 Posted February 6, 2023 Seeing as the topic of Christians actively preventing disasters and great loss of life has been discussed in this thread, today's events are bitterly ironic. https://www.bbc.com/news/live/64533954 If god was going to smite Turkey and Syria with a powerful earthquake to kill and injure thousands, what better time of year to do it than now? Early February; when the days are short, the nights are long and freezing temperatures are the norm. Wonderful timing!
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted February 7, 2023 Author Posted February 7, 2023 1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said: Seeing as the topic of Christians actively preventing disasters and great loss of life has been discussed in this thread, today's events are bitterly ironic. https://www.bbc.com/news/live/64533954 If god was going to smite Turkey and Syria with a powerful earthquake to kill and injure thousands, what better time of year to do it than now? Early February; when the days are short, the nights are long and freezing temperatures are the norm. Wonderful timing! Those are Islamic countries right?
walterpthefirst Posted February 7, 2023 Posted February 7, 2023 10 hours ago, DarkBishop said: Those are Islamic countries right? True. But Italy and Greece are just as prone to highly destructive earthquakes and they're Christian countries, DB. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1908_Messina_earthquake 75,000+ dead. https://devastatingdisasters.com/corinth-earthquake-greece-856-ad/ 45,000 dead. If we apply the rule that god himself followed with Sodom and Gomorrah, there can't have been even 'ten righteous men' in Corinth. If there had been then he wouldn't have smote it. But he did. So, since god is perfect and cannot be mistaken, Corinth and Messina (and also Turkey and Syria) deserved what they got!
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted February 7, 2023 Author Posted February 7, 2023 1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said: True. But Italy and Greece are just as prone to highly destructive earthquakes and they're Christian countries, DB. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1908_Messina_earthquake 75,000+ dead. https://devastatingdisasters.com/corinth-earthquake-greece-856-ad/ 45,000 dead. If we apply the rule that god himself followed with Sodom and Gomorrah, there can't have been even 'ten righteous men' in Corinth. If there had been then he wouldn't have smote it. But he did. So, since god is perfect and cannot be mistaken, Corinth and Messina (and also Turkey and Syria) deserved what they got! I was just making sure. I thought they were both primarily Islamic countries. And a Christians might saybit was God's wrath and I wouldn't be surprised if something like that was said by some fundy group somewhere. But we are primarily a Christian nation and have been hit by bad earthquakes in the past. Facts are Techtonic plates shift all over the world and it doesn't matter who is living in the area. For the Jews, Muslim, or Christian I don't feel any can say something was the wrath of God. All three worship the same God. The God of the Old testament. They all just differ concerning Jesus. In my belief Jesus wasn't God. He was the son of God. I wasn't trinitarian. Honestly, after our recent discussions, the Muslims are probably closer to the barbaric God of the old testament than Christians or Even Jews are now. I can't stand Islam tho. Probably because of all that happened in my generation. And their ruthless nature toward women. I knew two Muslim families that were actively looking for a female relative, to try and convince the to go to their home country, just to kill them for leaving their husbands. DB
☆ pantheory ☆ Posted February 8, 2023 Posted February 8, 2023 On 2/6/2023 at 4:17 PM, DarkBishop said: Those are Islamic countries right? Turkey is maybe 98% Islamic now. Following WWI all the Moslem's in Greece were invited to go to Turkey, and Christians and other religions in Turkey were invited to go to Greece Most of them went to stop religious strife and persecution. Although Syria claims to be 7/8ths Moslems, maybe only about half of them are practicing Moslems that regularly go to Mosques. Although small, the Christian populous in Syria have been persecuted because of their activism. We all know how stupid the Bible is. The preaching of the Bible can be practical and somewhat logical depending upon the region, its teachings, and the preacher. I have traveled in Turkey and other Moslem countries, gone to the Mosques there and in the U.S. Most Moslem preachers are more like rabbi's than like priests or ministers. They talk about making a happy and peaceful life for oneself and for family. They despise radicalism as making a bad name for Islam -- as we despise cult Christianity that preaches suicide, murder, and other crimes.
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted February 8, 2023 Author Posted February 8, 2023 Thats good to know. Atleast Turkey is a more liberal Muslim country. I've met one or two from Bosnia and they are very liberal in their practice. Or atleast the ones I met were. The two families I knew that wanted to get female relatives killed were from Jordan. DB
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted February 9, 2023 Super Moderator Posted February 9, 2023 It seems to me that these are exactly the kinds of places the christian god would want to answer the prayers of his faithful few. Here's a country that is 80% Muslim; so right out of the gate, the christian god knows that the vast majority of these people are going to burn for all eternity in hell because they believe in the wrong version of god and don't accept jesus as the messiah. But the bible describes god as being not willing that anyone should perish but that all should come to repentance. If this were true, what better way to demonstrate to these poor misguided Mohammedans that he really is the one true god, what better way to bring them to repentance and save them from the flames of hell, than to answer the prayers of his followers and prevent a cataclysmic earthquake? Then anyone who still disbelieved would genuinely be without excuse. Maybe I'm just putting an unfair expectation on a supposedly all-powerful and all-loving being, or projecting my own higher standard of morality and compassion; but like ol' Tom Sawyer said, "If'n I was god..." 2
walterpthefirst Posted February 9, 2023 Posted February 9, 2023 It seems to me that these are exactly the kinds of places the christian god would want to answer the prayers of his faithful few. Here's a country that is 80% Muslim; so right out of the gate, the christian god knows that the vast majority of these people are going to burn for all eternity in hell because they believe in the wrong version of god and don't accept jesus as the messiah. But the bible describes god as being not willing that anyone should perish but that all should come to repentance. If this were true, what better way to demonstrate to these poor misguided Mohammedans that he really is the one true god, what better way to bring them to repentance and save them from the flames of hell, than to answer the prayers of his followers and prevent a cataclysmic earthquake? Then anyone who still disbelieved would genuinely be without excuse. As you already know Prof, I agree 100% with your reasoning here. However, there are two (or more) major problems with the notion of Christian prayer preventing cataclysmic earthquakes. The first is establishing if an earthquake was actually going to happen in the first place. AFAIK seismology cannot yet predict that with reliable precision. The second is establishing which Christian or Christians prayed the prayer which god acted upon, so as to see cause and effect in action. If the second cannot be established this leaves the field wide open for anyone, of any religion, to claim that theirs was the prayer and theirs was the god that stopped the quake. And leaving the supernatural out of the equation, if the second cannot be established this leaves the field wide open for anyone to claim that an unknown, but non-supernatural agency or force prevented the earthquake from happening. Like benevolent aliens, benevolent beings from another dimension, benevolent humans from the distant future, etc. etc. Thank you, Walter.
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted February 10, 2023 Super Moderator Posted February 10, 2023 Oh I don't disagree, Walt. Those obstacles certainly apply in the present situation and state of the world. But: 1. If there were an omnipotent god, no obstacle would be too great to overcome. 2. If an omnipotent god were also omnibenevolent, and not willing that anyone should perish, every effort would be made on said god's part, to overcome any obstacle impeding belief. This would, I presume, include making it clear, just as he did with Sodom, that impending doom was inevitable unless his chosen servants were able to talk him out of it. 3. If a select subpopulation were in direct communion with this hypothetical god, under a great commission to bring the world to repentance, and given a spirit of power, love, and sober judgment with which to fulfill their duties, then there could be no doubt that, when calamity was averted, it was done so by the effectual and fervent prayers of righteous men, which avail much in the kingdom of heaven. At least, that's how it would work, if'n I was god.
walterpthefirst Posted February 10, 2023 Posted February 10, 2023 4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Oh I don't disagree, Walt. Those obstacles certainly apply in the present situation and state of the world. But: 1. If there were an omnipotent god, no obstacle would be too great to overcome. Unless in the overcoming of those obstacles he violated our free will. Just as he did with the Pharaoh of Egypt. (Oops!) 4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: 2. If an omnipotent god were also omnibenevolent, and not willing that anyone should perish, every effort would be made on said god's part, to overcome any obstacle impeding belief. This would, I presume, include making it clear, just as he did with Sodom, that impending doom was inevitable unless his chosen servants were able to talk him out of it. Ditto. 4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: 3. If a select subpopulation were in direct communion with this hypothetical god, under a great commission to bring the world to repentance, and given a spirit of power, love, and sober judgment with which to fulfill their duties, then there could be no doubt that, when calamity was averted, it was done so by the effectual and fervent prayers of righteous men, which avail much in the kingdom of heaven. At least, that's how it would work, if'n I was god. Ditto.
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted February 10, 2023 Super Moderator Posted February 10, 2023 Well, shit. That damn free will is always getting in the way of god's divine plan for everybody and everything.
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted February 11, 2023 Posted February 11, 2023 7 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Well, shit. That damn free will is always getting in the way of god's divine plane for everybody and everything. And Satan is to blame! 1
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted February 14, 2023 Super Moderator Posted February 14, 2023 2 2
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