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Goodbye Jesus

Christianity Evidence


DarkBishop

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6 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

 

Perhaps it's time for you to go play with your QAnon Action Figure Set™.

 

 

TABA, is this undermining someone?

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On 5/26/2023 at 7:14 AM, TABA said:

 


People come and go, things change, for better or worse.  The current moderators are doing the best we can in support of the goals of the community. 
 

 


That’s not the problem. The problem is you went off on a conspiracy theory that has nothing to do with the purpose of this forum.  There is just one place for political and other disputes now, and that is the Opine Club.  Post on such topics there, or not, as you prefer.  The past few years saw several blowups and falling out of members as a result of political disputes getting out of hand. 
 

The purpose of this community, above all others, is to support people deconverting from Christianity.  It’s a problem when that purpose is undermined in any way.  


OK fine. I didn't know about some opine club. The Super Prof wanted to wag his dick around instead of taking the time to explain that, but whatever because he's currently acting like an asshat. 

 

If someone says "faith" can cause an airplane to crash into a skyscraper, and I say faith can't do that, why am I wrong and how is that 'political' or 'conspiracy'?   That's not rhetorical question, Mr. red ink moderator. I know "the man said" but the man is full of shit on this one.  

 

 

 

 

 

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The relevant sections of the forum guidelines are pictured below.  You've been spoken to on a number of occasions,  @duderonomy; and you have been given a number of opportunities to be a more productive person within our community.  Since you have consistently chosen not to, your account has been restricted.   Going forward, your posts will require moderator approval.   Have a good day.

 

 

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On 1/29/2023 at 2:39 PM, DarkBishop said:

What constitutes evidence in/of Christianity? A lot of times when discussing topics here in the den the words subjective and objective evidence comes up. 

 

Subjective evidences are those evidences that are solely reliant on the experiences, beliefs, and feelings of an individual. 

 

Objective evidences are based on fact and would be something that could be verified in some way. 

 

The Bible gives many examples of various evidences that we should be able to look for. One of which is how to know if a person is actually a Christian. 

 

Jesus says in:

 

Mathew 7

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

In this Jesus is talking about false prophets but this can also be applied to a faithful Christian. Also reflected in the book of James.

 

James 2

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

Here we see some key wording in the bible. It shows us that there is something expected of the faithful. Just as Jesus said in Mathew 7, a good tree will bear good fruit. Also a Christian will work the works of Christ. It is a necessity to work the work of Christ to retain your salvation according to the bible. Or atleast that is what I see here. This is not what all Christian churches believe. But it is what I believed and what I taught as a preacher in my old church. Either way, a Change is expected in a newly converted Christian. It even asks the question can faith alone save you? The answer is no. This causes confusion in some denominations because of what is said in Ephesians chapter 2. 

 

Ephesians 2.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

Here we see that it is said that salvation is a gift and not a gift obtained by works. Which is true biblically. But notice that it also says that ye are saved through faith. While biblically no one can be saved by their works alone and they must go through faith in Christ to receive the gift of salvation. There is work to be done after salvation and faith. And if those works aren't there. Faith is dead. And if faith is dead without works, salvation is lost. Biblically it is freely given but must be maintained afterward by living the life of Christ. 

 

Also in ephesians we get a pretty good example of the fruits of a Christian. 

 

Ephesian 4

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

Notice that there is to be an obvious change in a Christian. His demeanor changes. The man that was once a thief will now work honestly to aide those in need. Laying down his wrath, anger, and evil speaking. To be kind, tender hearted, and forgiving. 

 

It is also taught in scripture that this change is caused by the Holy spirit working in a person. 

 

Galatians 5

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

 

Biblically, a person reflecting all of this criteria should be considered a Christian. In a way this is objective evidence as it can be observed and witnessed. I would even consider them a Christian, if they said they were and reflected a Christian walk in their lives. A believer observing a fellow believer would conclude that this person was in fact a Christian based on the criteria set forth by their savior and the apostles.  But is that enough to prove that Christianity is true? No, not at all.

 

While I will admit that this is the very evidence that a Christian could give us. It only reflects a change in mentality that comes with Indoctrination. This same type of change could be seen in someone who decides to start practicing Buddhism. Some of the kindest people I've known have been Hindu. In my youth I was interested in Wicca. I met some people during this time who had a deep and profound respect and love for nature. This was core to their beliefs. Anyone can have a change in consciousness and become a better person. One of the mottos of my fraternity is: "Taking good men and making them better". There is great wisdom in the lectures of masonry that teach us to be better people. To consider others and what they may be going through before jumping to conclusions and not to let religious differences affect how we treat one another. Many other religions, beliefs, and practices promote the values that Christians are expected to uphold. So while these observations may be enough for a fellow Christian within the church to determine legitimate faith. It doesn't indicate that Christianity itself is true. Only that the believers are changed by Christian teachings. As with any other faith, fraternity, or ideology.

 

For the question of whether or not Christianity is true, this is only more subjective evidence based on the emotions, beliefs, and experiences of the individual in question. It only proves that they believe what is written in the bible and apply those teachings to their lives.

 

The only difference between the examples listed above of other faiths and that of a Christian, is faith in Christ. 

 

Let's go over what it says in Hebrews 11 about faith being evidence. 

 

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

 

I thought about posting the whole chapter because after verse two it goes into giving the faithful examples of Jewish elders in the bible. Abel, noah, Abraham, Enoch, Moses, and several others. And I would urge anyone reading this post to read the whole chapter. It just seems unnecessary to post the whole chapter in the OP.

 

In the rest of the chapter they present the experiences of the elders as fact. They assumed (at the time) that all of these events happened. Not by faith but because it was written. They thought that these people existed and that they did all these things through their faith because these characters were written into the Bible. They felt that these were factual events that resulted from faith. They didn't have the means to verify the narrative like we do today.

 

In reality none of these things have been able to be verified through archeology or any other method of obtaining objective proof. And most of the time what they have been able to find told a very different story than what has been written into the bible.

 

Abel is the son of Adam and Eve who were characters in the mythological story of creation. Our discoveries do not reflect a creation anything like what is depicted in the bible. 

 

There is a mountain of verifiable evidence that the "world wide" flood of Noah depicted in Genesis never happened. There is proof of smaller localized and coastal flooding which is believed to be the inspiration for Noah's flood and other flood myths. Geologist have searched the world for evidence of a world wide flood a d have come up empty handed.

 

There is very little proof that Moses ever existed or that the exodus ever happened. Though initially archeologists set out using the bible as a guide to find evidence of the exodus. That evidence has eluded their grasp. I watched a documentary on it one time that ended up highlighting the absence of evidence for the exodus. However to appease the masses (IMO) it was said that if it had happened that the Egyptians would have erased it. I've heard other Christians quote the same to support their belief in the narrative. The problem with that is that when Egyptians erased something like that from their history, they literally chiseled the Hieroglyphics from the wall that told the story. They also don't see where it would have been erased. The logical conclusion is that it just didn't happen and there was nothing to erase.

 

There is no verifiable proof of Abraham or Isaac. Oh I'm sure that there were some actual people with some of these names that inspired the myths and legends that came to be. But we can go through each example that is given in Hebrews 11 and conclude that there is no sufficient evidence to prove that any of those things happened. Had they known during that time that these events couldn't be proven I doubt that Hebrews 11 would ever have been written. They wrote about them as factual examples of the faith of others who (unknowingly to the writer) probably never existed. 

 

Had archeologists and scientist been able to prove that these people and events existed. Like they have been able to do with other events in history. This chapter would have been fairly good evidence for the case of the biblical God. However, that proof has never been found. Therefore, this chapter has only become more fuel for the argument against the bible and its God. 

 

Another question could be: Is someone's adherence to their faith enough to prove that the Christian God is real? We've all heard the stories of Apostles, Saints, and Christians in general being persecuted, tortured, and killed. All the while proclaiming their faith in Christ. Would this be objective evidence? Again, NO. This is another result of indoctrination and belief in one's faith and has been mirrored in every persecution against every faith in the world. Including those who Christians persecuted, tortured, and killed themselves. Not to mention, Christians have an extra incentive not to falter in their faith in the face of persecution. 

 

Mathew 24

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

As with the works mentioned before. If a Christian doesn't keep his faith even while being tortured and killed, biblically they are in danger of eternal punishment in Hell. 

 

Such a loving God right?

 

As my friend @TABA mentioned to me. It is this same mentality that Islamic extremists had when flying planes into building on 9/11. Not so much the fear of Hell in that instance. But the Carrot of heaven to look forward to when the job was complete. I doubt anyone in Christendom would say Islam is true because of the actions of those faithful believers would they? 

 

But are these things the only evidence that could be presented?

 

Many Christians come here claiming the Christian God is real and the Bible is true because of something they perceive as a miraculous event in their lives. They or a loved one was cured of cancer, they were in a car wreck that should have killed them, or something to that effect. When I was a Bishop in the Gospel assembly one of my fellow brothers in the ministry was very ill. He got to the point he was fed up and decided to put his health in God's hands and went off all his meds. Low and behold the next thing we knew he was walking again and off oxygen. He claimed victory for Jesus initially but in time it came out that they had prescribed him medicines that were not intended to be mixed.

 

Still, I would attest that miracles could in fact be proof if those miracles were. 

 

1. Exclusive to Christians 

And

2. Reflected what Jesus prophesied would happen after him. 

 

Concerning the 1st point. Miracles like what I just mentioned are not exclusive to Christianity but can be claimed by people of different faiths all over the world. Most of these miracles have perfectly natural explanations as well. 

 

More interestingly, concerning this topic, Jesus gave clear indication that miracles in his name would continue even after he was gone. If one could prove that this is the case then it would be good objective evidence right? Well let's see what Jesus said. Let's go back to

 

Mathew 7

 

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

 

Jesus promised that through faithful prayer that God would answer in kind. Christians will often say that God doesn't answer all prayers because he knows something we don't. And I would tend to agree that there are prayers and circumstances where an all knowing God would not answer a prayer. But the problem lies in the fact that God is more in the business of not answering prayers than he is in answering them. Or atleast that is what appears to be the case. Another reason for unanswered prayers given by Christians is "not enough faith". According to scripture this isn't an excuse. 

 

Jesus says this in Matthew 17:20

 

"for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

 

A mustard seed is a very VERY small seed. So if a Christian can supposedly move a literal mountain with a small amount of faith and nothing will be impossible to them. Think of what someone strong in faith should be able to do. Seriously, think about it. 

 

@TheRedneckProfessor brought up the story on another thread of a young girl who was abducted, raped, and killed. She and her parents were Christian. And I know having been a Christian that her parents, her whole family, and probably their whole Christian community prayed for her safe return. This is one prayer that a Loving Christian God should answer if he were real. And this is just one instance. There are children starving and being abused daily. Many of them probably crying to God for help with no answer. Why? 

 

Think of any of the atrocities we can see on the news or in our day to day lives and really reflect on it. Many of these things are happening to people that are "God's people". Where are the answered prayers in this world? They just don't seem to be there do they?

 

Therefore this evidence provided by Jesus also fails to provide an adequate defense and objective proof for the bible's God. 

 

What else did Jesus say?

 

John 14

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

 

Verse 12 is the key verse here. He that believes in Jesus will not only do the works that Jesus did. But will be able to do greater works. 

 

It doesn't say that only his apostles would be able to do this. Some denominations try to say those days ended when the apostles died. But the bible says he that believes on Jesus would be able to do these things. That would include any and all Christians. 

 

And to top it off Jesus gives a reason why Christians will be able to do these things. "That the father may be glorified in the son". Sounds good right?

 

Let's do a quick review of some of the works of Jesus. 

 

Healed the sick, blind, lame, and even cured leprosy.

 

Fed thousands of people with a loaf of bread and a few fish. Miraculously multiplied it until everyone had their fill.

 

Walked on open water

 

Raised Lazarus from the dead

 

Was resurrected himself and ascended to heaven. 

 

Jesus said that those people that believed on him would not only be able to do all of that, but greater works than he did. 

 

If this had been true and actually happened in today's time. It would be good objective evidence that what the Bible says is true. Alas, once again this is not the case. Half the world is Christian. Hunger should be gone from all the Christians multiplying food for the hungry. Sicknesses should be miraculously cured daily. Cancer? Aids? Hepatitis? Covid 19? No problem. Go to the nearest Christian. Let them lay hands on you, Anointing you with oil, and you'll be cured. But that doesn't really happen does it? I know I tried many times as a believer and minister to follow the bibles methods of healing with nothing miraculous to recount. According to Jesus the world should be seeing these types of miracles coming from Christendom. Yet again, that is not what happened or is happening today. Even though Jesus himself said that it would happen.

 

BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE!!! There is one more thing that I've thought about and if the bible were true, it would be evident in the world today. Referencing verse 15-17 in John 14 from earlier Jesus makes a promise to send Christians some help. 

 

John 14

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

Jesus promises to send them the Holy Ghost to comfort his people and guide them in spirit and truth. We already covered how a change in a person's demeanor and actions can be perceived as evidence of the Holy Ghost according to a Christian. But is that all that the Holy Ghost has to offer for evidence according to the bible? No it isn't. 

 

1 corinthians 12

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

 

The gifts of the spirit. 

 

Prophesy

Tongues

Interpretation of tongues

Healing

Wisdom

Miracles

Knowledge

Discerning of spirits 

 

While all these gifts may be claimed by the church....... they aren't really evident are they? I mean sure.... wisdom, knowledge, and maybe even discerning of spirits. I mean I'm not even religious and I can usually read people pretty well. But I'm not sure thats the type of spiritual discerning it is talking about. Most of the time, if you do hear a supposed prophesy, it ends up not coming to fruition. If it is considered fulfilled it is usually some vague prophecy that is proclaimed to be a fulfillment according to some persons interpretation. But there is really no extraordinary prophecies that have come true which we can verify. 

 

I doubt every one that reads this post have even heard tongues. Let alone the "Interpretation" of tongues. I have and honestly I wasn't impressed and I thought it was ridiculous. Also there is no way currently to prove that what was said was interpreted correctly outside of the mind of the interpreter. 

 

The Bible gave many examples of objective evidence that a Christian "should" be able to show us heathens. But the only thing Christians have been able to show us, is the subjective evidence reflected in personal Christian Indoctrination and the change in behavior. While I agree that the Bible says that this is the evidence of a Christian. The Bible and Jesus himself also said there should be more evidence. There actually should be objective evidence. The Bible gives many examples of things we should be able to verify and we weren't/aren't able to. It gives many examples of things Christians should be capable of, but they aren't.

 

The Bible fails at every turn to prove itself true and the biblical God is seemingly powerless to prove his own existence. And that isn't a God worth worshipping in my opinion. It definitely does not reflect the Jealous, All powerful, All Knowing, All Loving, and ever present God depicted in the bible.

 

Thank you,

 

Dark Bishop 

 

Well stated, I am surprised Aik did not have anything to say about this.

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