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Goodbye Jesus

What does God need?


Wertbag

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The modern idea of God includes Him having all of the omni traits, being perfect (perfectly good, perfectly knowing etc) and the only thing that existed prior to our universe was heaven, a place of perfection inhabited by perfect angelic beings.  With that fairly common grounding for Christian beliefs, it does lead to the question, what does God need?

God creates the universe, the Earth and eventually people.  Why?  He has no need of anything, has nothing that He is lacking, and in fact if He is creating a place that includes death and suffering then it is a net negative.

 

Having created humans and civilisation, He then gives laws around how to sacrifice animals to Him.  Why?  What need does God have of butchered animals?  He wants for nothing, so such death gains Him nothing.  Of course this leads to the ultimate sacrifice, Jesus dying on the cross...  again, an act for which God can have no requirement.  Anything that could be gained an all-powerful God could already do.  He could forgive without sacrifice and He could show mercy to the repentant without blood.

 

I had this discussion with a Christian online, trying hard to get him to explain why any of it was required: 

"Why did God request animal sacrifice?"

"God's justice demands we either pay for our sins or that the innocent pay for them.  When Jesus died on the cross that put an end to sacrifices for sin"

"How is punishing the innocent justice?  Why does God need any of this?"

"Jesus took our punishment so our sins could be forgiven, without that we would have to pay for our own sins"

"That is the claim, the question is why is that a requirement?  God doesn't need it, He doesn't need anything, so why the unnecessary suffering?"

"Justice demands accountability. God would not be just or holy if he forgave sin without it."

"I agree, and there is no accountability if someone other than the law breaker gets punished, hence no justice.  None of that gets to the question as to why God needs a sacrifice at all."

"If God forgave sin without accountability, why would that be justice?"

"It wouldn't be.  The criminal should be accountable for their own actions.  Now how does punishing an innocent party in any way make the criminal accountable for their actions?"

"For those who believe on Christ, God lets Christ bear the punishment that is due the sinner."

"Which is still not an answer as to why God needs that sacrifice at all, or how it is justice for someone else to take the punishment."

 

What I'm seeing is Christians are taught the "what"; Jesus sacrificed himself for us so that God would forgive the sins of any who believe, but no one seems to ask the "why".  I see the same taught responses given, but it doesn't seem like anyone have thought what it means.

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52 minutes ago, Wertbag said:

but it doesn't seem like anyone have thought what it means.

They don't need to think. It's all done for them. Thinking leads to asking tough questions, to admitting that the answers are often unknown, and to confronting fear. 

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“God creates the universe, the Earth and eventually people.  Why?  He has no need of anything, has nothing that He is lacking, and in fact if He is creating a place that includes death and suffering then it is a net negative.

 

Having created humans and civilisation, He then gives laws around how to sacrifice animals to Him.  Why?  What need does God have of butchered animals?  He wants for nothing, so such death gains Him nothing.” - 

 

Your point here is something I have never thought about until recently either. It does seem strange. Why would a perfect being in a perfect place create something that he would know would lead to death and suffering? And then make even more death and suffering “ necessary “ so he can appear “ just”?   I may have to ask some christian people this question since in all my years in the church I have only heard the same stock answers you did in your online discussion.

 

Funny, I was just discussing with some colleagues yesterday how often students make the mistake of just rewording the exam question but not actually answering it…..

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Perhaps you would have more luck if you rephrase the question.  We know that god is omnipotent; and we know that god created everything that was created.  Justice was created, therefore, by omnipotent god.  So, we can conclude from this that god could have created justice in any way he chose or wanted to create it.  He could have created justice that did not require the shedding of innocent blood.  He could have simply declared that a penitent heart would be enough.  Or, he could have declared that sacrificing a large 2-topping pizza and a six-pack of beer would cover a multitude of sins.  But he didn't.  He declared that "without the shedding of blood, there could be no remission of sin."  Why?  Why did god decide to create justice that requires bloodshed and retribution?

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1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Why?  Why did god decide to create justice that requires bloodshed and retribution?

And asking "why?" deserves a better response than:

  • It's a mystery (woooo... magic! He's so deeeep.)
  • His ways are higher than our ways, and his thoughts than our thoughts (a mere bug like you can't begin to understand God)
  • Dunno (honest, but useless)
  • Who are YOU to question GAWD?!! Shudabotahonda! (ooga booga intimidation)
  • Just trust! He's got a great plan for you! (unicorns and rainbows distraction)
  • It will all become clear the more you trust (set that question aside and pretend it isn't there, you'll forget about it the more this group becomes your social circle)

 

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Or, he could have declared that sacrificing a large 2-topping pizza and a six-pack of beer would cover a multitude of sins.

 

I'd like to apply for this god position.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Fuego said:

Dunno (honest, but useless)

That is eventually where my conversation ended up.  "I don't know.  The bible says it is so and therefore I believe it"

Don't think too hard or the cognitive dissonance might become apparent. 

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22 hours ago, Wertbag said:

What I'm seeing is Christians are taught the "what"; Jesus sacrificed himself for us so that God would forgive the sins of any who believe, but no one seems to ask the "why".  I see the same taught responses given, but it doesn't seem like anyone have thought what it means.

     The only actual explanation is in Leviticus 17:11::

 

For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.

 

     That's it.  Life is in the blood and it's required for atonement.  No blood equals no atonement.  You can give your own blood (or life which means you should die) for your sins or you can give an acceptable substitute.  Xian authors would argue animal sacrifices as imperfect and say that christ's sacrifice was perfect which is why animal sacrifices were on-going while his was a one-off.

 

     It's really crazy to think that our (or any blood in any animal) was actually provided to us so that we might be able to offer it up for atonement for something that did not exist (sin) when we were actually given said blood.  But who am I to argue with what's written here?

 

          mwc

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Fuego said:

I'd like to apply for this god position.

I'd gladly hire you.

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51 minutes ago, mwc said:

That's it.  Life is in the blood and it's required for atonement. 

So then the question becomes: omnipotent god blah blah, created everything blah blah, could have created beings that run on jet fuel but chose blood instead.  Why?  And why does he now require said blood for atonement when he could have also created atonement to work in any way he chose, but he chose blood?

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