Are we in fact only "seeing" the "abomination of desolation" that is once again "standing in the holy place?" (Mt 24:15, 16)

[Sol]

 

 

While I am brand new to this website, I have nonetheless read some of the articles found here such as the one that Kuroikaza posted in 2006 entitled – Why I don't Believe. I chose this post merely as an example since it seems to represent an increasingly prevalent view of things not only on this website, but many similar ones. First of all, to the ever increasing number of people who are performing this separation or even "exodus" from the many religious and in fact even political institutions that currently exist on the earth along with their seemingly endless divisions or denominations, I say - BRAVO! And perhaps even also, – what took you so long? The only thing that might please me more however would be for people to more fully understand exactly what it is that they are increasingly recognizing as so repulsive or even "abominable." And other than the fact that this should help them avoid the tragic mistake of actually CONFLATING the one true God and his written word with the demonic institutions that ALWAYS begin to even GROSSLY misrepresent BOTH of these things during these particular "seasons" of a foretold "time," (1 Th 5:1-3) (Da 4:23, 32) (Lu 21:24)  there are basically two reasons for this:

 

The first reason is because if or when we come to fully recognize exactly what it is that we are increasingly becoming disgusted and even horribly offended over, we are now in a much better position to perform this separation in a TRUE or COMPLETE manner. In fact we would do well to understand that the primary reason we at least on the whole do NOT fully "see" or recognize what the scriptures also refer to with terms like the "Whore of Babylon," the "Man of Lawlessness" or "antichrist," is precisely BECAUSE it once again occupies what actually WAS the "holy place" or divine "Sanctuary" being addressed here in Matthew 24. You see the very FIRST thing the demons begin to do the moment our unfaithfulness allows then to overthrow and occupy the "holy place" Jesus  speaks of here in Matthew, is to embark on the deceptive practices identified in reference accounts like 2 Thessalonians 2:9, 10 and 2 Corinthians 11:13-15.

 

You see it is not without reason we find Jesus directing our attention to Daniel 11:30-32 in the very next verse of this passage of Matthew. (Mt 24:16)  The very crafty deceptions or obfuscations of the Holy Scriptures and their true or deeper meanings that the demons ALWAYS immediately embark on when one of these "apostasies" unfolds, is often referred to as a "VEILING" in the scriptures. (Lu 2:32)  Moreover in one of the scriptural accounts in which the Apostle Paul was elaborating on this very phenomenon in or around the year of 51 CE, he points out that it was "ALREADY AT WORK" as early as that time! (2 Th 2:7) (Compare verses 1-6)  Are we already beginning to more fully appreciate what are in fact the EXTREMELY TREMENDOUS implications of this? Nevertheless it is in fact this COMPLETE "exodus" that is being addressed even also by this same Apostle in scriptural accounts like 2 Corinthians 6:17:

 

“Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE,” says the Lord. “And do not TOUCH what is unclean; and I will welcome you." (2 Cor 6:17) NASB

 

 

If we are considering a divine command to not even so much as "TOUCH" this "abomination," all the more reason for us to fully recognize exactly what it is I would suggest. And this brings us to the SECOND reason that this more complete understanding is in fact so extremely crucial. This is because as long as we continue to fail in this regard, the fact is we do not even have a CHANCE of obeying the SECOND portion of what is a actually a TWO part command here at Matthew 24:15, 16. So allow me by all means to cite BOTH verses of the scripture I used to introduce this topic, and please take special note of the words I have highlighted in them.

 

15 “Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in JUDEA must FLEE to the MOUNTAINS." (Mt 24:15, 16) LSB

 

 

It should be rather obvious already that it is not merely a matter of separating ourselves from whatever particular "abomination" is being addressed here and in fact even in a very URGENT or EXPEDIENT manner the moment we actually begin to "see" or recognize it as such. Clearly there is also a kind of specific DESTINATION involved in this flight, which in this case is somewhat cryptically identified as the "mountains." Yes as I will soon be demonstrating with reference scriptures, it is by no means LITERAL mountains that Jesus is speaking of here. However particularly since what we are ALWAYS dealing with when it comes to the holy writings is actually the symbolic/allegoric spiritual language which ultimately permeates the ENTIRE Bible, (Ga 4:24) (Col 2:3) (He 8:5) are we not recognizing yet another word or term here in this scripture which merits some careful and even prayerful cross referencing?

 

Yes the entity which in fact must perform the "fleeing" addressed here during ANY foretold "season" of a "time" (1 Th 5:1-3) (Da 4:23, 32) (Lu 21:24)  in which they begin to witness and even experience the extremely devastating effects of yet ANOTHER complete "apostasy" (Da 11:30-32) (2 Th 2:1-10) of the holy nation, is in this case identified with the expression – "those who are in JUDEA." (Mt 24:16) While we may not even begin to appreciate this fact as of yet, scriptural terms like this are already touching on exactly what it generally is that is actually CAUSING us to "see" or discern the fact that what we perhaps FORMERLY recognized as even a "HOLY place," is now anything but. And perhaps the FIRST thing we want to appreciate here is that the "times and seasons" being addressed here in these cited scriptures along with EVERYTHING associated with them, are something the holy writings have foretold ALL ALONG to unfold …"SEVEN times" (Da 4:23, 32) during the period distinguished as the …"times of the Gentiles" ALONE! (Lu 21:24)  

 

What should make this information even much more sobering for us however is the SHOCKINGLY brief time spans that would elapse between a renewed and inaugurated kingdom covenant and the subsequent violation of its legal terms even also on the part of the "anointed shepherds" (Isa 44:48 45:1)  it is always INITIALLY formed with. And this would REMAIN the situation until the time the Apostle Paul spoke of in accounts like 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, or the Apostle John in ones like Revelation 20:6. In other words, the human flaws or failings EVEN on the part of divinely "anointed shepherds" are SO SEVERE, that even millenniums of time would be required for God to accumulate the number of  heavenly "kings and priests" (Re 5:10)  he deems as necessary for the long anticipated "Thousand Year Reign."

 

You see our creator is so loving that he insists on having rulers and judges that can actually relate to and sympathize with the weaknesses that sinful and imperfect humans are plagued with, and even DESPITE the fact that perfection would be restored to humans during this "Millennial Reign."  However since even ALL of these shepherds would now be …"incorruptible and immortal," (as the ancient manuscripts even more clearly reveal) this means that at least on a NATIONAL level, the holy marriage covenant would never be broken again! Nevertheless the downright ASTONISHINGLY brief periods in which things like GENUINE Jews or Christians would actually EXIST on the earth during the preceding 2,520 year period identified as the "Gentile Times," is precisely what accounts for the way they were prophetically and symbolically portrayed for us at 2 Kings Chapter 5. Among the things we should take note of when we read it is that the seven spiritual cleanings and rebirths (also referred to in the scriptures with terms like "baptisms" as well as "plantings" with their subsequent "harvests") foretold for the holy nation during this period of foreign "exile and captivity" (Eze 12:11) were pictured here as if they in some sense would never be accomplished AT ALL until after all "seven" of them would be completed. (1 Sa 2:5) (Jer 15:9) (Isa 54:1-4 66:7,

 

 

1 "Now Naaman, the commander of the army of the king of Aram, was a great man in his master’s sight and highly regarded, for through him the LORD had given victory to Aram. And he was a mighty man of valor, but he was a leper.

2 At this time the Arameans had gone out in bands and had taken a young girl from the land of Israel, and she was serving Naaman’s wife. 3 She said to her mistress, “If only my master would go to the prophet who is in Samaria, he would cure him of his leprosy.”

4 And Naaman went and told his master what the girl from the land of Israel had said.

5 “Go now,” said the king of Aram, “and I will send you with a letter to the king of Israel.”

So Naaman departed, taking with him ten talents of silver, six thousand shekels of gold, and ten sets of clothing.

6 And the letter that he took to the king of Israel stated: “With this letter I am sending my servant Naaman, so that you may cure him of his leprosy.”

7 When the king of Israel read the letter, he tore his clothes and asked, “Am I God, killing and giving life, that this man expects me to cure a leper? Surely you can see that he is seeking a quarrel with me!”

8 Now when Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his clothes, he sent a message to the king: “Why have you torn your clothes? Please let the man come to me, and he will know that there is a prophet in Israel.”

9 So Naaman came with his horses and chariots and stood at the door of Elisha’s house.

10 Then Elisha sent him a messenger, who said, “Go and wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored, and you will be clean.”

11 But Naaman went away angry, saying, “I thought that he would surely come out, stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, and wave his hand over the spot to cure my leprosy. 12 Are not the Abanah and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not have washed in them and been cleansed?” So he turned and went away in a rage.

13 Naaman’s servants, however, approached him and said, “My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more, then, when he tells you, ‘Wash and be cleansed’?”

14 So Naaman went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, according to the word of the man of God, and his flesh was restored and became like that of a little child, and he was clean." (2 Ki 5:1-14) BSB

 

 

 

We would do well to recall that what finally placed God's people in this foretold period of foreign captivity was when their unfaithfulness reached the point that was recorded for us in accounts like 2 Kings 23:31-37. Compare (Jer 1:1-3)  Also we want to bear in mind that it is always the formation of a holy covenant with relatively repentant humans that QUALIFIES them as God's "own possession" and thus as things like Jews, Israelites, or Christians. (Ex 19:5) However among the many things we become very well programmed to overlook the moment that the legal terms of this covenant fail to be "KEPT" is that we are suddenly right back to being the foreign "LEPROUS" entity that is PERFECTLY pictured for us here at 2 Kings 5:1-14.

 

The rather prideful and faithless resistance that this Syrian Chieftain initially displays towards what is required to cleanse him is simply another way of representing what is addressed in accounts like Ezekiel 3:4-7, Malachi 3:2, 3 and Matthew 16:24. By the time another foretold "Son of man" (Eze 3:4) (Da 8:17) (Mt 20:28) or "Two Witnesses" (Re 11;3, 7, 11, 12) (Zec 4:14) (Jos 2:1) arrive to renew and inaugurate another broken covenant, the degree of spiritual and moral degradation the demons have managed to inflict upon us means that the discipline, tests and trials required to transform people into divinely anointed shepherds once again will not only seem to them as "TORTURE," but even ONGOING torments over a significant span of TIME! (Mt 22:28-30) As Jesus explicitly stated at Matthew 22:14, ultimately very "FEW" will end up being included among the "incorruptible and immortal" shepherds addressed there at 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.

 

Nevertheless since we have in fact found ourselves even in the FINAL foretold time in which a "faithful and wise servant" has been "appointed" (Mt 24:45) to perform the ministry to the figurative/spiritual "sleeping virgins" addressed in very illustrative or allegoric accounts like Matthew 25:1-10, I very much hope that at least SOME of us here are genuinely interested in coming to learn what the scriptures are truly conveying ALSO with terms like -"mountains" and -"those in Judea." (Mt 24:15, 16) And all the more so in view of the fact that in a SCRIPTURAL context, virtually EVERY expression should be recognized as SYMBOLIC, and therefore as the "HIDDEN treasures" or even "sacred SECRETS" spoken of in accounts like Proverbs 2:4, Matthew 11:25 13:10, 11 and Luke 11:5-13. To actually embark on this however, perhaps we should begin by considering the reason that the Holy Scriptures are written in this rather cryptic or encoded manner in the first place. So let us by all means pick up the discussion with this issue beginning with my next post. Meanwhile especially since it might even be a few days before I am finished with writing and editing it, questions or comments are most certainly encouraged.

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

https://www.scribbr.com/fallacies/no-true-scotsman-fallacy/

[walterpthefirst]

Perhaps Sol could provide some objective evidence for the existence of the one true god?

 

 

Hint:

The bible is not objective evidence of god - it is the claim itself about him.  To be objective your evidence would have to come from outside of the bible and also be able to be tested and checked by us for its validity.  

 

'Nuther Hint:

Purely personal interpretation of anything is subjective.  Therefore it fails the test of objectivity and so falls short of being acceptable objective evidence.

 

Last Hint:

Brevity is the soul wit.  Therefore, rather than a long treatise, perhaps your objective evidence could be as succinct and to the point as possible?

 

 

Thank you,

 

 

Walter.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

So, after years of study, you now have an accurate understanding of the Bible and faith in the true God. 

 

We have another "Authentic Christian" on the site who also believes he has an accurate understanding.  It would be interesting if you and the other person, "aik"  would get together and respond to the above replies. 

 

Also, if the Holy Spirit is guiding you both, it would not take long for both of you to come back and explain to us in simple terms what the extremely important message is, that the one true God wants us sinners to understand. It will be interesting to see if the Holy Spirit gives each of you the same information.  

 

Since you may not yet be able send a Personal Message to aik, I will send him a message and invite him to join you in this effort.

 

I almost forgot.  We have another Authentic Christian.  It will be interesting to see if all three Authentic Christians will work together to respond to our questions and concerns, similar to the ways we Exs work together. 

[sdelsolray]

This one would benefit from learning to and practicing the discipline of speaking for himself, and not for others.

[Edgarcito]

Didn't put the squint on his post but had a friend that believed the church was the whore of Babylon.  He left the organized church but remained a devout Christian citing fundamentalism was the issue.  

 

On another note, makes me think if the money changers story...

[TheRedneckProfessor]

40 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Didn't put the squint on his post but had a friend that believed the church was the whore of Babylon.  He left the organized church but remained a devout Christian citing fundamentalism was the issue.  

 

On another note, makes me think if the money changers story...

We have a member here in this community with a similar disposition.  His name is Edgarcito.

[TABA]

Hello Sol,

 

It seems you believe you have an understanding of scripture that very few others have acquired.  No doubt it feels good to be privy to a divine message that most other believers have missed.  
 

You will be disappointed to learn that we who have rejected Christianity are NOT in fact still searching for the true message from god supposedly contained in the Bible.  We have concluded that scripture comes entirely from the minds of humans, that your god does not exist (and although you do not mention the Holy Spirit, that he exists only in the minds of believers).  So asking us to engage on your topic is akin to asking us why we think the earth is flat.  

[☆ pantheory ☆]

On 12/31/2024 at 9:21 AM, Sol said:

 

 

 

 

While I am brand new to this website, I have nonetheless read some of the articles found here such as the one that Kuroikaza posted in 2006 entitled – Why I don't Believe. I chose this post merely as an example since it seems to represent an increasingly prevalent view of things not only on this website, but many similar ones. First of all, to the ever increasing number of people who are performing this separation or even "exodus" from the many religious and in fact even political institutions that currently exist on the earth along with their seemingly endless divisions or denominations, I say - BRAVO! And perhaps even also, – what took you so long? The only thing that might please me more however would be for people to more fully understand exactly what it is that they are increasingly recognizing as so repulsive or even "abominable." And other than the fact that this should help them avoid the tragic mistake of actually CONFLATING the one true God and his written word with the demonic institutions that ALWAYS begin to even GROSSLY misrepresent BOTH of these things during these particular "seasons" of a foretold "time," (1 Th 5:1-3) (Da 4:23, 32) (Lu 21:24)  there are basically two reasons for this:

 

 

The first reason is because if or when we come to fully recognize exactly what it is that we are increasingly becoming disgusted and even horribly offended over, we are now in a much better position to perform this separation in a TRUE or COMPLETE manner. In fact we would do well to understand that the primary reason we at least on the whole do NOT fully "see" or recognize what the scriptures also refer to with terms like the "Whore of Babylon," the "Man of Lawlessness" or "antichrist," is precisely BECAUSE it once again occupies what actually WAS the "holy place" or divine "Sanctuary" being addressed here in Matthew 24. You see the very FIRST thing the demons begin to do the moment our unfaithfulness allows then to overthrow and occupy the "holy place" Jesus  speaks of here in Matthew, is to embark on the deceptive practices identified in reference accounts like 2 Thessalonians 2:9, 10 and 2 Corinthians 11:13-15.

 

 

You see it is not without reason we find Jesus directing our attention to Daniel 11:30-32 in the very next verse of this passage of Matthew. (Mt 24:16)  The very crafty deceptions or obfuscations of the Holy Scriptures and their true or deeper meanings that the demons ALWAYS immediately embark on when one of these "apostasies" unfolds, is often referred to as a "VEILING" in the scriptures. (Lu 2:32)  Moreover in one of the scriptural accounts in which the Apostle Paul was elaborating on this very phenomenon in or around the year of 51 CE, he points out that it was "ALREADY AT WORK" as early as that time! (2 Th 2:7) (Compare verses 1-6)  Are we already beginning to more fully appreciate what are in fact the EXTREMELY TREMENDOUS implications of this? Nevertheless it is in fact this COMPLETE "exodus" that is being addressed even also by this same Apostle in scriptural accounts like 2 Corinthians 6:17:

 

 

“Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE,” says the Lord. “And do not TOUCH what is unclean; and I will welcome you." (2 Cor 6:17) NASB

 

 

If we are considering a divine command to not even so much as "TOUCH" this "abomination," all the more reason for us to fully recognize exactly what it is I would suggest. And this brings us to the SECOND reason that this more complete understanding is in fact so extremely crucial. This is because as long as we continue to fail in this regard, the fact is we do not even have a CHANCE of obeying the SECOND portion of what is a actually a TWO part command here at Matthew 24:15, 16. So allow me by all means to cite BOTH verses of the scripture I used to introduce this topic, and please take special note of the words I have highlighted in them.

 

 

15 “Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in JUDEA must FLEE to the MOUNTAINS." (Mt 24:15, 16) LSB

 

 

 

It should be rather obvious already that it is not merely a matter of separating ourselves from whatever particular "abomination" is being addressed here and in fact even in a very URGENT or EXPEDIENT manner the moment we actually begin to "see" or recognize it as such. Clearly there is also a kind of specific DESTINATION involved in this flight, which in this case is somewhat cryptically identified as the "mountains." Yes as I will soon be demonstrating with reference scriptures, it is by no means LITERAL mountains that Jesus is speaking of here. However particularly since what we are ALWAYS dealing with when it comes to the holy writings is actually the symbolic/allegoric spiritual language which ultimately permeates the ENTIRE Bible, (Ga 4:24) (Col 2:3) (He 8:5) are we not recognizing yet another word or term here in this scripture which merits some careful and even prayerful cross referencing?

 

 

Yes the entity which in fact must perform the "fleeing" addressed here during ANY foretold "season" of a "time" (1 Th 5:1-3) (Da 4:23, 32) (Lu 21:24)  in which they begin to witness and even experience the extremely devastating effects of yet ANOTHER complete "apostasy" (Da 11:30-32) (2 Th 2:1-10) of the holy nation, is in this case identified with the expression – "those who are in JUDEA." (Mt 24:16) While we may not even begin to appreciate this fact as of yet, scriptural terms like this are already touching on exactly what it generally is that is actually CAUSING us to "see" or discern the fact that what we perhaps FORMERLY recognized as even a "HOLY place," is now anything but. And perhaps the FIRST thing we want to appreciate here is that the "times and seasons" being addressed here in these cited scriptures along with EVERYTHING associated with them, are something the holy writings have foretold ALL ALONG to unfold …"SEVEN times" (Da 4:23, 32) during the period distinguished as the …"times of the Gentiles" ALONE! (Lu 21:24)  

 

 

What should make this information even much more sobering for us however is the SHOCKINGLY brief time spans that would elapse between a renewed and inaugurated kingdom covenant and the subsequent violation of its legal terms even also on the part of the "anointed shepherds" (Isa 44:48 45:1)  it is always INITIALLY formed with. And this would REMAIN the situation until the time the Apostle Paul spoke of in accounts like 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, or the Apostle John in ones like Revelation 20:6. In other words, the human flaws or failings EVEN on the part of divinely "anointed shepherds" are SO SEVERE, that even millenniums of time would be required for God to accumulate the number of  heavenly "kings and priests" (Re 5:10)  he deems as necessary for the long anticipated "Thousand Year Reign."

 

 

You see our creator is so loving that he insists on having rulers and judges that can actually relate to and sympathize with the weaknesses that sinful and imperfect humans are plagued with, and even DESPITE the fact that perfection would be restored to humans during this "Millennial Reign."  However since even ALL of these shepherds would now be …"incorruptible and immortal," (as the ancient manuscripts even more clearly reveal) this means that at least on a NATIONAL level, the holy marriage covenant would never be broken again! Nevertheless the downright ASTONISHINGLY brief periods in which things like GENUINE Jews or Christians would actually EXIST on the earth during the preceding 2,520 year period identified as the "Gentile Times," is precisely what accounts for the way they were prophetically and symbolically portrayed for us at 2 Kings Chapter 5. Among the things we should take note of when we read it is that the seven spiritual cleanings and rebirths (also referred to in the scriptures with terms like "baptisms" as well as "plantings" with their subsequent "harvests") foretold for the holy nation during this period of foreign "exile and captivity" (Eze 12:11) were pictured here as if they in some sense would never be accomplished AT ALL until after all "seven" of them would be completed. (1 Sa 2:5) (Jer 15:9) (Isa 54:1-4 66:7,

 

 

 

 

1 "Now Naaman, the commander of the army of the king of Aram, was a great man in his master’s sight and highly regarded, for through him the LORD had given victory to Aram. And he was a mighty man of valor, but he was a leper.

2 At this time the Arameans had gone out in bands and had taken a young girl from the land of Israel, and she was serving Naaman’s wife. 3 She said to her mistress, “If only my master would go to the prophet who is in Samaria, he would cure him of his leprosy.”

4 And Naaman went and told his master what the girl from the land of Israel had said.

5 “Go now,” said the king of Aram, “and I will send you with a letter to the king of Israel.”

So Naaman departed, taking with him ten talents of silver, six thousand shekels of gold, and ten sets of clothing.

6 And the letter that he took to the king of Israel stated: “With this letter I am sending my servant Naaman, so that you may cure him of his leprosy.”

7 When the king of Israel read the letter, he tore his clothes and asked, “Am I God, killing and giving life, that this man expects me to cure a leper? Surely you can see that he is seeking a quarrel with me!”

8 Now when Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his clothes, he sent a message to the king: “Why have you torn your clothes? Please let the man come to me, and he will know that there is a prophet in Israel.”

9 So Naaman came with his horses and chariots and stood at the door of Elisha’s house.

10 Then Elisha sent him a messenger, who said, “Go and wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored, and you will be clean.”

11 But Naaman went away angry, saying, “I thought that he would surely come out, stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, and wave his hand over the spot to cure my leprosy. 12 Are not the Abanah and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not have washed in them and been cleansed?” So he turned and went away in a rage.

13 Naaman’s servants, however, approached him and said, “My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more, then, when he tells you, ‘Wash and be cleansed’?”

14 So Naaman went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, according to the word of the man of God, and his flesh was restored and became like that of a little child, and he was clean." (2 Ki 5:1-14) BSB

 

 

 

 

 

 

We would do well to recall that what finally placed God's people in this foretold period of foreign captivity was when their unfaithfulness reached the point that was recorded for us in accounts like 2 Kings 23:31-37. Compare (Jer 1:1-3)  Also we want to bear in mind that it is always the formation of a holy covenant with relatively repentant humans that QUALIFIES them as God's "own possession" and thus as things like Jews, Israelites, or Christians. (Ex 19:5) However among the many things we become very well programmed to overlook the moment that the legal terms of this covenant fail to be "KEPT" is that we are suddenly right back to being the foreign "LEPROUS" entity that is PERFECTLY pictured for us here at 2 Kings 5:1-14.

 

 

The rather prideful and faithless resistance that this Syrian Chieftain initially displays towards what is required to cleanse him is simply another way of representing what is addressed in accounts like Ezekiel 3:4-7, Malachi 3:2, 3 and Matthew 16:24. By the time another foretold "Son of man" (Eze 3:4) (Da 8:17) (Mt 20:28) or "Two Witnesses" (Re 11;3, 7, 11, 12) (Zec 4:14) (Jos 2:1) arrive to renew and inaugurate another broken covenant, the degree of spiritual and moral degradation the demons have managed to inflict upon us means that the discipline, tests and trials required to transform people into divinely anointed shepherds once again will not only seem to them as "TORTURE," but even ONGOING torments over a significant span of TIME! (Mt 22:28-30) As Jesus explicitly stated at Matthew 22:14, ultimately very "FEW" will end up being included among the "incorruptible and immortal" shepherds addressed there at 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.

 

 

Nevertheless since we have in fact found ourselves even in the FINAL foretold time in which a "faithful and wise servant" has been "appointed" (Mt 24:45) to perform the ministry to the figurative/spiritual "sleeping virgins" addressed in very illustrative or allegoric accounts like Matthew 25:1-10, I very much hope that at least SOME of us here are genuinely interested in coming to learn what the scriptures are truly conveying ALSO with terms like -"mountains" and -"those in Judea." (Mt 24:15, 16) And all the more so in view of the fact that in a SCRIPTURAL context, virtually EVERY expression should be recognized as SYMBOLIC, and therefore as the "HIDDEN treasures" or even "sacred SECRETS" spoken of in accounts like Proverbs 2:4, Matthew 11:25 13:10, 11 and Luke 11:5-13. To actually embark on this however, perhaps we should begin by considering the reason that the Holy Scriptures are written in this rather cryptic or encoded manner in the first place. So let us by all means pick up the discussion with this issue beginning with my next post. Meanwhile especially since it might even be a few days before I am finished with writing and editing it, questions or comments are most certainly encouraged.

 

 

 

Hope you like it here Sol. Welcome Sir to the X-Christian forum. If you like to argue religion or proselytize this is a good place to do it, in the Lion's Den. All the forums are open to you if you don's proselytize or argue religion. Many here have been hurt by religion and have little or no diplomacy in their arguments, more like a chip-on-their shoulder attitude. As for myself, I am a pure atheist and have been so for many decades. For me all religions are just silly like Greek Mythology, But I do like going to church occasionally when invited and especially singing the songs. I try not to laugh about religious beliefs but sometimes I inwardly feel like it, like the beliefs of flat Earthers and New World Creationists (6000 year old Earth). I am a scientist and if you are interested I could answer almost any science questions if you have any. Again Welcome and hope you decide to stick around and join us.

 

But if you would like a diplomatic argument about Christianity I can give you one. It would not be an argument about somebody being right and somebody else being wrong, it would be a discussion of the Bible, of science, and of logic. The basis of this kind of discussion is asking questions, but no one has to answer the questions. The person asking the questions can answer his own question if the other chooses not to do so in time, or if the questioner disagrees with the answer. And of course in diplomacy courtesy is a main key to it.

 

Proselytizing can also be done by both sides. You can explain your version of religion to me over and over again, and I can go on and on and on about my version of science to you. If you like this format I will answer you this way in this thread or another in an argument forum, or you could ask questions about religion in any forum, but arguments are not allowed elsewhere. That's all for now.

 

best regards pantheory.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Delete

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 12/31/2024 at 11:48 AM, walterpthefirst said:

 

Brevity is the soul wit.  Therefore, rather than a long treatise, perhaps your objective evidence could be as succinct and to the point as possible?

 

Excelent suggestion, Walter!

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

20 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Didn't put the squint on his post

Does that mean you didn't read your Brother in Christ's post at all? 

Way to show Christian Unity. 

20 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

but had a friend that believed the church was the whore of Babylon.  He left the organized church but remained a devout Christian citing fundamentalism was the issue.  

Is this changing the issue your Brother was trying to get at? 

 

[walterpthefirst]

 However particularly since what we are ALWAYS dealing with when it comes to the holy writings is actually the symbolic/allegoric spiritual language which ultimately permeates the ENTIRE Bible, (Ga 4:24) (Col 2:3) (He 8:5) are we not recognizing yet another word or term here in this scripture which merits some careful and even prayerful cross referencing?

 

Nevertheless since we have in fact found ourselves even in the FINAL foretold time in which a "faithful and wise servant" has been "appointed" (Mt 24:45) to perform the ministry to the figurative/spiritual "sleeping virgins" addressed in very illustrative or allegoric accounts like Matthew 25:1-10, I very much hope that at least SOME of us here are genuinely interested in coming to learn what the scriptures are truly conveying ALSO with terms like -"mountains" and -"those in Judea." (Mt 24:15, 16) And all the more so in view of the fact that in a SCRIPTURAL context, virtually EVERY expression should be recognized as SYMBOLIC, and therefore as the "HIDDEN treasures" or even "sacred SECRETS" spoken of in accounts like Proverbs 2:4, Matthew 11:25 13:10, 11 and Luke 11:5-13. To actually embark on this however, perhaps we should begin by considering the reason that the Holy Scriptures are written in this rather cryptic or encoded manner in the first place. So let us by all means pick up the discussion with this issue beginning with my next post. Meanwhile especially since it might even be a few days before I am finished with writing and editing it, questions or comments are most certainly encouraged.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------

 

Hi Moxieflux66.   

 

 

I think I've detected something of a difference between Sol's approach and aik's approach.  A difference that could be informative.  In both cases they claim to have "special knowledge" of the scriptures.  In aik's case he says that this knowledge comes through the holy spirit, which we have free access to once we become truly born-again Christians like himself.  But Sol's approach is different.  In order to properly understand the scriptures, we have to come to... HIM.  As we see indicated in these quotes.

 

 

Yes as I will soon be demonstrating with reference scriptures, it is by no means LITERAL mountains that Jesus is speaking of here. 

 

I very much hope that at least SOME of us here are genuinely interested in coming to learn what the scriptures are truly conveying...

 

So allow me by all means to cite BOTH verses of the scripture I used to introduce this topic, and please take special note of the words I have highlighted in them.

 

 

Do you see the difference, Moxie?  Aik says that we will properly understand scripture through the holy spirit.  But Sol says that we will properly understand scripture through... HIM. 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Moxieflux66,

 

 

I think I've detected another difference between Aik and Sol.  As we've seen, aik says that the holy spirit will enable us to understand scripture  But as far as I can recall he's never made the claims about it that Sol has made.  Specifically, these claims.

 

 

*  The entire bible is written in a symbolic/allegoric spiritual language

*  Virtually every expression in the bible is a symbolic "hidden treasure" or "sacred secret"

*  The holy scriptures are written in a cryptic or encoded manner

 

 

I don't think aik has ever said these things about scripture.  As far as I can tell his consistent line has been that the holy spirit will open the true meaning of scripture for us - providing that we first become true Christians.

 

But Sol's approach seems to be different.  Thus far he hasn't mentioned anything about us first becoming Christians and receiving the holy spirit BEFORE we obtain a true understanding of scripture.  No.  The line he seems to be taking is that we don't need to become Christians or receive the holy spirit to obtain a true understanding of scripture.  Instead we need to learn the truth from him.

 

Sol has the keys to these mysteries.  He is the giver of sacred knowledge, not the holy spirit.  He doesn't need the holy spirit to change us first because he can do the job.  The allegories, symbols, hidden treasures, sacred secrets, and cryptically encoded messages in the bible will laid open to us by him, without any assistance from god.

 

With aik we have to look to god to see the truth.  But with Sol, we have to look to him to see the truth.  One of those approaches is biblical and one is not.  One agrees with scripture and one does not.  One of these people appears to be wanting us to join him in his mystery cult.

 

BE  WARY!

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Moxieflux66,

 

 

The final point I think I've detected is this difference between aik and Sol. 

 

By relying solely on the holy spirit to explain the true meaning of scripture aik has tied himself to what is actually written on the page.  That's because the holy spirit can never disagree with what is written in the bible, which is god's Word.  Every word of the bible was (allegedly) written through the inspiration of the holy spirit.  Therefore, if the same holy spirit is guiding modern-day Christians into the true meaning of scripture then whatever they think they understand MUST agree with the Word.  For example...

 

Picked at random, here is the bible verse, John 4 : 4.   "Now he had to go through Samaria."

 

If the holy spirit tells a Christian that the true meaning of John 4 : 4 is that Jesus had to go through Judea, then that would contradict what is plainly written on the page.  So the holy spirit in 2025 would be disagreeing with the holy spirit in 60 or 70 A.D., or whenever the gospel of John was written.  Such a contradiction would never happen if the same holy spirit was guiding true believers, then and now.

 

So, whatever aik says or claims can be held to account by comparing it to what the bible actually says.  And we now know that he doesn't seem to accept that the prophet Elijah went up to heaven, just as it says in 2 Kings 2 and is confirmed in the three of the gospels, when Elijah is seen with Moses, talking to Jesus.

 

 

But Sol is different.

 

By claiming that the scriptures are written symbolically, with hidden meanings and cryptically encoded messages, he cannot be held to account by referring to what the bible actually says on the page.  Not by us and not by anyone.  Not even aik or Edgarcito or any other Christian.  

 

We could point out certain verses and passages to Sol, confident that we understand what they plainly mean.  But since he alone understands the true meanings of these closed, divine mysteries, he can gainsay us by claiming that scripture doesn't actually mean what we think it means - even though we can see the words in black and white. 

 

Try thinking of the bible as a securely encrypted text with an apparently ordinary outward appearance.  The true meaning of what the words actually mean cannot be understood by anyone who doesn't have the key to decrypt them.  And Sol claims that he has that key.  So, we won't understand anything without him.

 

Sol has totally closed the circle, locking himself inside a bubble of his own private meanings and his own purely subjective interpretations.  Nobody can enter without his say so.

 

 

Therefore, rather than trying to tackle him on his own turf - the meaning of scripture - I submit that a better approach would be to put the onus on him to first present objective evidence for his claims.  Not secret meanings or hidden symbols that he alone says are true.  No.  Objective evidence.

 

 

Thank you,

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[☆ pantheory ☆]

23 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

We have a member here in this community with a similar disposition.  His name is Edgarcito.

 

yes, Ed is a real long-time member here but his objective is also to fit in and be a part of us. A part that believes in Christianity and has gone to other parts of the forum without proselytizing. And on occasion he will go where the foxes fuck.

 

IMHO most of the Christians that come here are really trying to help us like Sol (which could be the name of the Sun God )  Most don't have even the faintest idea how "stupid" Christianity and other religions really are. Although there are some, I have yet to hear one Christian here that has much knowledge about science. At least Ed has made an effort to venture into this unknown land for most Christians.

 

It's interesting to me that Christians can realize how silly Greek Mythology is but never realize that the same "stupidity" also applies to the belief in Christianity, the book of Genesis and Revelation no better than children's 2,000 year old fairy tales.

 

Happy 2025 to all our members, visitors, and lurkers; best wishes from me

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I'd be curious why anybody would trust a book that doesn't mean what it says.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Dang, are you guys/gals implying we likely will NOT have a debate team of Christians to debate with us??

[☆ pantheory ☆]

14 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Dang, are you guys/gals implying we likely will NOT have a debate team of Christians to debate with us??

 

Nope, Christians do not like to debate, they just like to explain to us their truth  

[walterpthefirst]

4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I'd be curious why anybody would trust a book that doesn't mean what it says.

 

 

Perhaps because they believe that god has imparted the true meaning of the book to them?

 

Making them the only intermediary through which we must go to properly understand the book.

 

Which, given the wonderful gift god has bestowed upon them, must do their ego no harm at all.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

To be fair, I don't think @Sol intends to say he is the only intermediary or that we need to come directly to him for divine revelation.  I take his OP more to mean that we (people in general) misunderstand and misinterpret the scripture (which I agree with); but a correct understanding/interpretation is possible (which I disagree with).  His ego might delight at the thought that he has the correct understanding; but I don't think he's the next Jim Jones or anything like.

[walterpthefirst]

24 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

To be fair, I don't think @Sol intends to say he is the only intermediary or that we need to come directly to him for divine revelation.  I take his OP more to mean that we (people in general) misunderstand and misinterpret the scripture (which I agree with); but a correct understanding/interpretation is possible (which I disagree with).  His ego might delight at the thought that he has the correct understanding; but I don't think he's the next Jim Jones or anything like.

 

Well, I dunno, Prof.

 

 

Thus far he's not said anything about the holy spirit "opening" the scriptures for us.  Which is what Jesus said he/she/it would do - once we became true Christians.  In contrast, Sol has said this.

 

 

Yes as I will soon be demonstrating with reference scriptures, it is by no means LITERAL mountains that Jesus is speaking of here. 

 

I very much hope that at least SOME of us here are genuinely interested in coming to learn what the scriptures are truly conveying...

 

So allow me by all means to cite BOTH verses of the scripture I used to introduce this topic, and please take special note of the words I have highlighted in them.

 

 

Call me sceptical, but his seems to be all about him, about what he can demonstrate to us and about what he wants to impart to us. 

 

Those of us who are genuinely interested have to come to him to learn and we should also take special note of what he has highlighted for us.

 

Really?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Maybe only I have the true interpretation of the OP, then.

[Edgarcito]

20 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Well, I dunno, Prof.

 

 

Thus far he's not said anything about the holy spirit "opening" the scriptures for us.  Which is what Jesus said he/she/it would do - once we became true Christians.  In contrast, Sol has said this.

 

 

Yes as I will soon be demonstrating with reference scriptures, it is by no means LITERAL mountains that Jesus is speaking of here. 

 

I very much hope that at least SOME of us here are genuinely interested in coming to learn what the scriptures are truly conveying...

 

So allow me by all means to cite BOTH verses of the scripture I used to introduce this topic, and please take special note of the words I have highlighted in them.

 

 

Call me sceptical, but his seems to be all about him, about what he can demonstrate to us and about what he wants to impart to us. 

 

Those of us who are genuinely interested have to come to him to learn and we should also take special note of what he has highlighted for us.

 

Really?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh that's quaint Walter coming from you lol...

[Edgarcito]

@ Sol....greetings sir.  Just an FYI, these people don't do Spiritual revelation, reading between the lines anymore.  They gave it up and likely the conversation will just get directed towards proof of the Trinity...the lack thereof.  Ex Christians typically delve into making themselves as educated as they can to demonstrably prove their point regarding religion.  I'd save my time and pencil lead.