Catholic Church And Dark Ages

[SkepticOfBible]

Hey Guys,

 

For those history buff out there, I need a bit of rebuttal here. I smell a big stinker here, especially regarding Gallileo

 

http://www.achristianandanatheist.com/phpB...?t=185&start=45

I think it would be helpful if you looked at modern scholarship rather than on historical myth. Gallileo's troubles were mostly of his own making. He was invited by the Church to present his findings It was the Church who patronised him. The cause of his rift with Rome was his refusal to present his findings as hyptheses, which was the Church's demand, rather than facts, when they were yet proven. All I can ask is that you read the books not surf the internet. The Vatican has retained a special interest in astronomy and was until the end of the 19th. century a major contributor to modern discoveries. It certainly has not been frightened of astronoical discovery.

 

The dark ages are said to end around 800 AD with the reign of Charlemagne, if not earlier if you look at the contribution of English clerics, based mainly at York.

 

The Roman Empire ended 1453 with the fall of Constantinople. The Greek heritage had been saved by then. We did not require the Turks to save Greek culture and they did not. The work started in the time of Charlemagne and continued thereafter.

 

Most scholarship in the Islamic world was the product of Christian and Jewish minorities. Again please read the books. Islamic societies are not generally inventive ones: an observation which is easy to demonstrate. Take a look at the Islamic world today., I forget the exact figure but I think since independendence Pakistan has registered less than 50 patents, in fact I think very much less.

 

The dark ages dis not end with the Renaissance. Petrach is in many ways a medieval man. I think it would be unfair to write off the medieval contribution: the work of the Fathers of the Church and the builders of Chartres Cathedral for example.

 

Christian worship continued in Italy after Justinian move the centre of the Roman Empire East which had always been its power base.

 

I don't know why the crusades came in as they did not occur in the dark ages. They were initiated by a call for help by the Emperor in Constantinople and encouraged by the Pope. It was never a land grab but an effort to retake lands that had been traditionally Christian and European. They failed but lasted long enough to allow Europe to become strong enough to fend off and eventually reverse Islamic expansion. In that sense they probably saved Western civilisation. I do not deny that there were disgraceful episodes on both sides, not least of which was the sack of Constantinople which was a terrible, barbaric and unnecessary event.

 

The greatest hospital in the world was St. John's Hospital in Jerusalem during the time the crusaders occupied the city. I wonder what happened to it when they did not?

 

Again, all I ask is that you read the books and keep a mind open and less prone to take in propaganda. The record of Christianity and the Church is very impressive. We owe a great deal to it. We should be thankful. Or, perhaps you prefer to live in an Islamic world. If so you may get your wish.

 

By the way, I hope I don't sound too harsh. That is certainly not my intention. But I think we should seek the truth in all things. That is why I am a disciple of Jesus because He is the ultimate truth.

 

Thanks a lot.

 

Skeptic

[Artur]

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[Astreja]

The dark ages are said to end around 800 AD with the reign of Charlemagne...

Um, no. Charlemagne started the dark ages for the Saxon and Scandinavian people.

 

And "Which would you rather have, Christianity or Islam?" is a false dichotomy.

[pandora]

I don't have a source, but the claim that Islamic societies did not have a cultural peak of their own making is false. The middle eastern cultures were rich before Islam, and Islamic societies allowed them to flourish.

[Toxic]

"Which would you rather have, Christianity or Islam?"

er, neither sounds pretty good to me.

[Taphophilia]

What does reading books have to do with anything? Just because it's a book doesn't mean it's true. Just like the internet there are lots of books out there that contain incorrect information. I think I've said this before. Many times a PhD in Theology will write a history book to prove their Theology when they have no formal training as a historian. A Theologian does not an historian make.

 

Taph

[Artur]

*

[loves_learning]

*sniff sniff sniff*

 

WHO FARTED???

 

 

Oh...this dude must have had a brain fart. WHEW!!! Its a doozy!

[Guest Obermeister]

Artur did a fantastic job bursting your friend's bubble regarding galileo. The hilarious thing about that was that the Church didn't admit he was right until about 30 years ago I think. But it was not a laughing matter for Galileo. On a related note concerning the alleged wisdom of the church. You might have your friend do a little reading on the Malleus Maleficarum, or the Hammer of Witches. A nasty little book put out by the Catholic Church. http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/ I'd have a little look at it anytime you need to remind yourself of the benighted thinking common until the Enlightenment. And put out by the purveyors of the so-called truth.

 

As for the crusades. Like the jihad it was as much about gold and glory as god. It was also as much about a power struggle between the eastern and western christian churches as it was about a war on Islam. Not to mention the secular western nobles who saw a chance to sieze new possessions for themselves. Which they did. I learned a ton about this conflict from the history channel's program "The cross and the cresent". Maybe you can find this on bittorrent sometime if you're interested.

[SkepticOfBible]

Artur did a fantastic job bursting your friend's bubble regarding galileo. The hilarious thing about that was that the Church didn't admit he was right until about 30 years ago I think. But it was not a laughing matter for Galileo.

 

Does anybody know, at what time did the catholic church left the position of the world being flat?

[Kerplunk288]

The ignorance on these forums confounds me.

 

Firstly, the Catholic Church has never believed that the Earth was flat. The spherical shape of the Earth has been common knowledge among scholars since Antiquity. The Flat-Earth Myth was propagated by Washington Irving in the 19th century. It seemed fitting especially considering the dismal perception of the Dark Ages.

 

Secondly, the Galileo account seems to be mostly accurate. Galileo had a hunch, an accurate hunch, but it did not follow from the science of the time. The Catholic Church has a rich intellectual and scientific tradition, they did not fear Galileo's conclusion for any theological implications. Although, it should be noted that the historical account mentioned by the OP really gives takes shit on Islam. Though currently Islam may be hostile to science, at one time there was an Islamic Golden Age. Ibn Sina, Ibn Rushd, Al-Farabi, made great advancements in philosophy, cosmology, astronomy, mathematics. Ibn Sina provides one of the earliest, if not the earliest, articulations of the scientific method. Over 500 years before Descartes and Bacon. The Catholic Church was indebted to the preservation of Greek philosophy by the Islamic philosophers, and were integral in rediscovering Aristotelian and Platonic texts.

 

-Kerplunk

[The-Captain]

I don't know why the crusades came in as they did not occur in the dark ages. They were initiated by a call for help by the Emperor in Constantinople and encouraged by the Pope. It was never a land grab but an effort to retake lands that had been traditionally Christian and European. They failed but lasted long enough to allow Europe to become strong enough to fend off and eventually reverse Islamic expansion. In that sense they probably saved Western civilisation. I do not deny that there were disgraceful episodes on both sides, not least of which was the sack of Constantinople which was a terrible, barbaric and unnecessary event.

 

A great deal of BS there. Last thing the Emperor wanted was a bunch of smelly Franks running amok then heading south rather than east.

 

Traditionally European?

 

Crusades had nothing to do with "fending off Islam", if anything it helped reunite the Muslim world. Hell not even the Chronicles of Outremer give such a skewed view.

 

The ignorance on these forums confounds me.

 

It's a good thing you're here.

 

Firstly, the Catholic Church has never believed that the Earth was flat. The spherical shape of the Earth has been common knowledge among scholars since Antiquity. The Flat-Earth Myth was propagated by Washington Irving in the 19th century. It seemed fitting especially considering the dismal perception of the Dark Ages.

 

Secondly, the Galileo account seems to be mostly accurate. Galileo had a hunch, an accurate hunch, but it did not follow from the science of the time. The Catholic Church has a rich intellectual and scientific tradition, they did not fear Galileo's conclusion for any theological implications.

 

But dammit you're right about most of that. The Catholic Church's record is a bit ebb and flow intellectually though.

[Vixentrox]

A 4 year old thread necromancer.......

[mwc]

For a second I thought SkepticOfBible was back...

 

What's with the ancient thread?

 

mwc