Ex-religion.net

[Guest HansJansen]

Hi all.

 

This message is for everyone. More accurately this is more of a two part question. I am not asking these questions to tell you what I believe, but to find out what your views are.

 

My first question is whether all religous groups are judged within this forum. It seems by posts I have read that it is alright if you are a budhist, atheist, new-age, agnostic, hindu. (not that atheist or agnostic is a religion, but it still defines certian believes. i.e. There is no god) Anything as long as you deny christianity. I realize that this sounds like a generelization, but I wondered why the site is not called ex-religion.net but ex-christian.net. Is christianity much more dangerous than other religous groups?

 

My second question is about absolute truths. Do you believe in certian absolute truths. Do you believe that there are no absolte truths. If you believe in certian absolute truths which absolute truths do you believe in and why?

 

Thanks for your honesty,

 

Hans Jansen.

[notasheep]

Most of us used to be christians. Hence, ex-christians. Now we're mostly atheist or agnostic, but some still have some form of spiritual beliefs.

As for the rest of your questions, I suggest you spend some time reading some of the other threads, and, in particular, the "anti-testimonies".

[Asimov]

My first question is whether all religous groups are judged within this forum. It seems by posts I have read that it is alright if you are a budhist, atheist, new-age, agnostic, hindu. (not that atheist or agnostic is a religion, but it still defines certian believes. i.e. There is no god) Anything as long as you deny christianity. I realize that this sounds like a generelization, but I wondered why the site is not called ex-religion.net but ex-christian.net. Is christianity much more dangerous than other religous groups?

 

No, just the stupidest. At least mormons are endearing.

 

My second question is about absolute truths. Do you believe in certian absolute truths. Do you believe that there are no absolte truths. If you believe in certian absolute truths which absolute truths do you believe in and why?

 

Yes I believe in absolute truths. I believe that it is an absolute truth that there are absolute truths. I also believe in the absolute truth that A=A and that 1+1=2.

[Guest HansJansen]

Hi.

 

Just correct me if I am wrong. This site is not dedicated to show people towards something (atheism), just to point them away from something (christianity).

[Ryan]

Hi.

 

Just correct me if I am wrong. This site is not dedicated to show people towards something (atheism), just to point them away from something (christianity).

 

I'd take a gander up at the title bar of your browser. "Encouraging Ex-Christians." Atheists and agnostics tend not to need to change others beliefs to validate their own.

[Astreja]

There are several other forums that discuss religion vs. no religion in a more general sense, and I post there as well. However, most of our enmity is reserved for Christianity because of its prominence in our respective cultures.

 

The closest I ever got to being Christian myself was a brief stint in Sunday School when I was eight. I never said the Sinner's Prayer and never took the Gospels at face value. For most of my life I've fluctuated between mysticism and agnosticism. But my experiences with Christianity have been uniformly negative.

 

My partner's sisters are both born-again Christians, and we worry about them a lot because they frequently say and do inane things in the name of "faith."

 

My daughter was called a "demon child" by a classmate in Grade 5, and is even less tolerant of Christianity than me.

 

I've had various believers insult me, insult my grandfather, harass me for personal information at bus stops, and generally annoy the blazes out of me.

 

I stand in opposition to many key Christian concepts, particularly "original sin" and the idea of sacrificing one person for another's misdeeds.

 

So there's no love lost between me and Christianity.

 

My own spirituality is a loose collection of ideas taken primarily from Buddhism, shamanistic magic, and Norse paganism. However, it all rests on an agnostic, skeptical foundation. I recognize that my "religious experiences" could very easily be no more than a short circuit in my brain chemistry, and treat everything as internal symbols rather than objective truths.

 

And "A=A" works for me, too.

[saxyroze]

Hi all.

 

This message is for everyone. More accurately this is more of a two part question. I am not asking these questions to tell you what I believe, but to find out what your views are.

 

My first question is whether all religous groups are judged within this forum. It seems by posts I have read that it is alright if you are a budhist, atheist, new-age, agnostic, hindu. (not that atheist or agnostic is a religion, but it still defines certian believes. i.e. There is no god) Anything as long as you deny christianity. I realize that this sounds like a generelization, but I wondered why the site is not called ex-religion.net but ex-christian.net. Is christianity much more dangerous than other religous groups?

 

My second question is about absolute truths. Do you believe in certian absolute truths. Do you believe that there are no absolte truths. If you believe in certian absolute truths which absolute truths do you believe in and why?

 

Thanks for your honesty,

 

Hans Jansen.

 

1. Christianity is mostly "judged" here because we were all once Christians, which is a given. We don't judge many other religions because not a lot of us are ex-Muslims or ex-Hindus. We're ex-Christians. "Is christianity much more dangerous than other religious groups?" No, it's just what we're all trying to let go, be free from the rigidity of that particular religion.

 

2. I don't believe any one person can know absolute truth. We all may believe and conceive in relative truths. I think many people believe that their relative truths are absolute truths...which causes wars, conflict, hate, prejudice, ect. So, yes, there is an absolute truth but no, I don't think anyone knows or conceive it.

 

Hi.

 

Just correct me if I am wrong. This site is not dedicated to show people towards something (atheism), just to point them away from something (christianity).

 

I think this site is for those of us who have decided to go against the grain and walk out of the Christian world. This site is for us to vent, connect, find our new selves, search and grow. It doesn't point anyone away from anything. People come here looking for a community where they feel that they can belong to and converse with.

[ped]

im so sick of you idiot fucking morons acting as if atheism is a belief. do you believe in the FSM? do you believe in every lunatics rant about the true metaphysical nature of the world...no. not buying someones cockamamy ideas doesnt, by proxy qualify as a belief. if said atheist believed in a vastly unproven theory of origin that would be a belief...atheism its self isnt. and just for the record evolution isnt a vastly unproven belief, it the opposite..christianity and it ideas are something taught to people, theism is a learned belief. all children are athiest until religion brainwashes them by insisting to that naive child thats the true nature of the world. ill say it again in other words:

atheism is a base state of reason. just because one doesnt accept any idea thats portrayed doesnt mean one has an opposite but equally unfoundable idea of non belief.

define god and an athiest will show a reasonable person beyond a doubt it doesnt exist...well im wasting my breath, and i got a poker game to attend with santa, bigfoot, jesus, and an intellectually honest christian.

[Checkmate]

Dittos to all of the above replies to the OP.

 

I have nothing significant to add, yet I do have a question/observation of my own.

 

Why do visiting Xians tend to over-generalize, assume and demonize non-Xian web sites/gatherings?

 

Non-Xians are NOT some monolithic, evil cabal, conspiring to overthrow Christianity and thus send us all spiralling into a chaotic abyss of tortue and madness. We are simply INDIVIDUALS. Individual FREE THINKERS who, for our own INDIVIDUAL reasons, have concluded that religion/Christianity holds no truth, nor fear for us. Thus, we don't need it.

 

Let me emphasize it again in case you missed it...WE ARE INDIVIDUALS!!!! There is NO "party line" to which must be adhered. We are NOT all the same. We are NOT all atheists. (I am, but many others are NOT.) In fact, it MIGHT surprise you to find out that SOME here STILL believe in "God". Just NOT the Xian/Muslim variety.

 

And we even have some bonafide Christians as welcome and beloved MEMBERS in good standing.

 

You will find, HansJansen, that the ONLY requirement we INSIST upon on this site, (the ONLY thing to which one MUST adhere) is that each person be able to defend their cherished beliefs/opinions with MORE than spurious and subjective nonsense. (I.E. "faith.") LOGIC and REASON are the only "gods" allowed and worshipped here. If you can defend your beliefs, then by all means, let them fly. But if all you've got is, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it!", then be prepared to have your head handed to you on a platter. We have Zero tolerance for stupidity and canned apologetic answers on these boards.

 

That being said, Welcome to EX-CHRISTIAN.NET! A Community of Free Thinkers, Heretics and Rabble Rousers.

[Vigile]

well im wasting my breath, and i got a poker game to attend with santa, bigfoot, jesus, and an intellectually honest christian.

 

[Saviourmachine]

My first question is whether all religous groups are judged within this forum. [...] (not that atheist or agnostic is a religion, but it still defines certian believes. [...]

 

My second question is about absolute truths. Do you believe in certian absolute truths. [...]

Of course I'm a believer, hence religious. I believe in the dignity of mankind, I believe in interaction with your environment to discover what is ethically and naturally accepted behaviour. I believe in enjoying the good things on earth. I believe that science (if I can speak in such general terms) is a very promising way to view things. I believe that love is a very promosing way to scrutinize reality even more. I believe we can make the world a better place.

 

I consider your question: "Do you believe in certain absolute truths" as invalid. IMHO, belief is a personal thing. Everything that I believe I consider as the truth. I can not believe something while thinking at the same moment that my belief is false.

• Does "absolute truth" mean that there was a moment in my life that I did not believe in a certain proposition? That is of course the case. When I was a kid I didn't believe anything at all.
  
• Does "absolute truth" mean that I can not imagine it being false? I'm quite good in playing the devil's advocate, so I would doubt that. Even the binary relation of "equality" has not to be valid in every system.
  
• Does "absolute truth" mean that I have to show undeniable evidence regarding my belief? In what sense is this still a belief? There are even people that deny that I am conscious. I am wondering what they think what "conscious" actually is.
  
• Does "absolute truth" mean that I am pretty sure that I have experienced something? In that case I would like to call it experience, and it's indeed something that has to do with my conception of truth. But, from my own experience, I know, that I can misinterpret what I think that I'm experiencing. Tiny example: false (virtual) identities.
  

The most absolute truths in my weird and tiny world are in the form of: "don't buy a gun and shoot yourself."

[Light_of_Reason]

I only wish to address your second question since everyone else has done a fine job with the first.

 

Are there absolute truths?

 

Yes. Absolute truths exist within observable reality and logic. In other words, if a truth is observable and testable or fits within the laws and rules of logic and reasoning, then it is an absolute truth. Given this, we can say that A=A, 1+1=2, and that blue is not pink.

 

However, there are also relative truths. These are the interpretations and understandings of reality that each individual constructs based upon intelligence, education, and cultural/social background. These truths could also be accurately described as relative or situational truths. An example would be asking whether or not it is right to steal. For some, stealing would be wrong (taking out of selfish desire or recreational purposes). For others, stealing would be right (taking food or other necessary resources for survival when other means are not available).

 

I am of the opinion that absolute truths and relative/situational truths are in a constant interplay within the individual and society. That is to say that how we handle the interplay between absolute truths and construct relative/situational truths defines us as individuals and societies.

[Ex-COG]

I only wish to address your second question since everyone else has done a fine job with the first.

 

Are there absolute truths?

 

Yes. Absolute truths exist within observable reality and logic. In other words, if a truth is observable and testable or fits within the laws and rules of logic and reasoning, then it is an absolute truth. Given this, we can say that A=A, 1+1=2, and that blue is not pink.

 

However, there are also relative truths. These are the interpretations and understandings of reality that each individual constructs based upon intelligence, education, and cultural/social background. These truths could also be accurately described as relative or situational truths. An example would be asking whether or not it is right to steal. For some, stealing would be wrong (taking out of selfish desire or recreational purposes). For others, stealing would be right (taking food or other necessary resources for survival when other means are not available).

 

I am of the opinion that absolute truths and relative/situational truths are in a constant interplay within the individual and society. That is to say that how we handle the interplay between absolute truths and construct relative/situational truths defines us as individuals and societies.

An excellent reply, in perfect harmony with you screen name! The issue of absolute truth is often trotted out by Christians, who think they've got you hogtied if you answer the question with a simple yes or no. I'll jot this down in my lesson book (ya'll didn't know I was taking notes, did ya?).

[white_raven23]

Hi.

 

Just correct me if I am wrong. This site is not dedicated to show people towards something (atheism), just to point them away from something (christianity).

 

Incorrect. This site is not dedicated to any "agenda" at all. This site is at it's heart, a support group for people who have already left, or are thinking of leaving. It's about community first and foremost. We do not seek to grow in numbers, yet, we do. We do not widely promote any sort of belief system the way organized religions do.

 

And christians who come here (like yourself) are perfectly welcome, but as Mr. Grinch said, you will be required to think. But that requirement goes for everyone, not just those who hold a dogma. It just seems to be that dogma holders experience a higher "threat" sensation when asked to explain your own reasons for belief. The "witnessing" explainations don't cut it here. We can teach a parrot to do that.

[Amethyst]

Most of us are not seeking actively to deconvert others. This site exists as a support group for people who have left Christianity. Most here have left Christianity in some form and need support because our families don't support our deconversion, they'd rather that we be brainwashed.

 

Also, many people have been spiritually, emotionally, and physically abused by members of the Christian religion and need support because people don't want to believe that Christians can be abusive. This site is also for them, but please don't make the mistake of assuming that we've all deconverted due to abuse. Most of us just realized that it was all a bunch of lies.

 

Reading the anti-testimonies has been suggested before in this thread. I whole-heartedly agree with that suggestion.

 

As for absolute truths, I think the logical fallacy there is assuming that you have it and we don't. If you didn't assume it, you wouldn't have asked. I don't think there are any absolute truths in the realm of spirituality, although Christianity can be and has been thoroughly debunked. This to me does not mean that there can't be something divine, just that it's not Jesus.

 

The old joke is that 2+2=4 unless you have a Pentium. Truth changes as information changes. It used to be absolute truth that the world was flat and that if you sailed too far, the sea monsters would get you. We know better now because we have more data than our ancestors did. Absolute truths are only absolute within a given society at a certain point in time (IMHO). Things change.

[Ouroboros]

My first question is whether all religous groups are judged within this forum. It seems by posts I have read that it is alright if you are a budhist, atheist, new-age, agnostic, hindu. (not that atheist or agnostic is a religion, but it still defines certian believes. i.e. There is no god) Anything as long as you deny christianity.

Kind of. The purpose of the site is for the recovering Ex-Christian, for the person that lost his faith in that particular religion. The site wasn't created to criticize religion, or not even to criticize christiantiy, but to help the people that just walked out from the doors from the Christian Church. And unfortunately (for you) that easily becomes equated to negative attitudes towards Christianity, and not as critical against other religions.

 

We don't sell a certain belief or certain religion here, only a resting place for those who just left and maybe just passing by, into something (hopefully) better.

 

I realize that this sounds like a generelization, but I wondered why the site is not called ex-religion.net but ex-christian.net. Is christianity much more dangerous than other religous groups?

Someone might find a need to start a forum like that. For everyone that recently left any kind of religion. But probably it would become more of atheists.net than ex-religion.net.

 

My second question is about absolute truths. Do you believe in certian absolute truths. Do you believe that there are no absolte truths. If you believe in certian absolute truths which absolute truths do you believe in and why?

I believe there can exists absolute truths, but I don't think we can understand or know them.

 

To make it easier for you:

1. Define what you mean with 'absolute'

2. Define what you mean with 'truth'

 

 

Thanks for your honesty,

Maybe that's a good name for the forum: honest.net?

 

 

Hi.

 

Just correct me if I am wrong. This site is not dedicated to show people towards something (atheism), just to point them away from something (christianity).

Wrong. We're not here to point anyone anywhere.

 

We don't prosetylize or evangelize for apostacy.

 

We are only the oasis where the people hurt in the battle go to to get rest and water so they can move on.

 

The hospital if you so want, where people can try to heal (hopefully).

 

And not an experiment lab where we try to find new ways of hurting people by inventing new religions.

 

Why do visiting Xians tend to over-generalize, assume and demonize non-Xian web sites/gatherings?

Because they can't understand the shades of gray. There's only black or white to them. If you're not white, then you're black, and vs.

[chefranden]

Hi all.

 

This message is for everyone. More accurately this is more of a two part question. I am not asking these questions to tell you what I believe, but to find out what your views are.

 

My first question is whether all religous groups are judged within this forum. It seems by posts I have read that it is alright if you are a budhist, atheist, new-age, agnostic, hindu. (not that atheist or agnostic is a religion, but it still defines certian believes. i.e. There is no god) Anything as long as you deny christianity. I realize that this sounds like a generelization, but I wondered why the site is not called ex-religion.net but ex-christian.net. Is christianity much more dangerous than other religous groups?

Hi Hans. Thanks for stopping by in a polite fashion. It is not usual behavior from Christians that stop by.

 

We don't hear from other religionists often. And of course we are more familular with our old love. Some of us think he was a wife beater. Some of us think he didn't pay attention to us after we got to the altar. Others think he was nothing but an expensive rubber doll.

 

Those who have opted out of Christianity for other religions haven't tried to proselytize, so they don't get much flack for having faith.

 

Most here are ex-Christian, therefore the name.

 

 

My second question is about absolute truths. Do you believe in certian absolute truths. Do you believe that there are no absolte truths. If you believe in certian absolute truths which absolute truths do you believe in and why?

 

I don't know if there are absolute truths, but since there are no absolute believers among humans it is a moot question. You will never know.

 

 

 

Hi.

 

Just correct me if I am wrong. This site is not dedicated to show people towards something (atheism), just to point them away from something (christianity).

 

I'd take a gander up at the title bar of your browser. "Encouraging Ex-Christians." Atheists and agnostics tend not to need to change others beliefs to validate their own.

 

Well said Ryan!

[Guest HansJansen]

Hi all.

 

Thanks for all your comments.

 

I purposefully did not state what my ideas on absolute truths are, but I did want your opinion on this matter. On the issue of evolution I did not even hint at, nor will, since this is not what the post is about. Talking about absolute truths is always an interresting topic ;-) lol!

 

I do realize now why the site is called ex-christian.net. It seems ( making another generilization, :-) ) that the majority of people here have been hurt by christian people, and/or ,have left christianity because the religion did not make sense. I have not heard of anyone saying that they believe christianity is true, but despite the fact have chosen against it due to moral objections.

 

My concern is not as much that you become a christian, but that people become tolerable towards one another despite their religous belief system. (Also if they do not have one!)

 

My ideas on absolute truths are very similar to a few ideas I have read here. There is 'simple' truths like A=A and the rest of science. There is also more fundamental truths that we do not understand yet and people have got relative truths based on their assumptions. This unfortunately acts as an agent to divide.

 

Would like to hear more comments.

 

Hans Jansen.

[Saviourmachine]

I have not heard of anyone saying that they believe christianity is true, but despite the fact have chosen against it due to moral objections.

Hi Hans, I think that having moral objections is one of the strongest motivations someone can have to investigate their own belief system. And it's of course my humble opinion that xianity doesn't stand if scrutinized.

 

My concern is not as much that you become a christian, but that people become tolerable towards one another despite their religous belief system. (Also if they do not have one!)

Of course! That's what most of us want. That's why you got no flaming. Only the people that can not imagine something outside their (religious) world, will step on everybody's toes. They're most often called fundies overhere. Islamic fundies don't visit often, but I would bet that they would receive the same treatment.

 

There is 'simple' truths like A=A and the rest of science. There is also more fundamental truths that we do not understand yet [...]

What is "fundamental"?

[Guest HansJansen]

What is "fundamental"?

 

Thanks for the quick reply.

 

My answer to this question will be up for scrutiny, but here I go:

 

I believe that these fundamental truths we do not understand yet is the laws of nature/science and the moral laws. As time allows us we have sometimes a clearer (but also sometimes a more warped) understanding of these truths. We call these truths law (I do not know why i.e. The law of gravity), but we do not understand why (or how) these laws/truths have been put into place.

 

As I said in the beginning I wnated to find out your ideas on this topic, but I hope that you got humered by my opinion.

 

Go well,

 

Hans Jansen

[Vigile]

My concern is not as much that you become a christian, but that people become tolerable towards one another despite their religous belief system. (Also if they do not have one!)

 

Hans, I'm completely tolerant of people who choose to believe in xtianity. I don't berate my own mother, smear my own father, or ridicule my own brother, cousins, aunts, uncles, or late grandparents. Their beliefs are only part of who they are and they are free to believe what they will with no grief from me.

 

What I will never tolerate is an imposition of religious manipulation of public policy, the imposition of faith based pseudo science in public schools or the intolerance heaped on those with alternative lifestyles by the loud moral minority. They can all suck my dick and fuck off an die for all I care. They can believe whatever they want to believe but as soon as they try imposing those beliefs on others they and I can not ever get along. I am not Rodney King.

[Amethyst]

I do realize now why the site is called ex-christian.net. It seems ( making another generilization, :-) ) that the majority of people here have been hurt by christian people, and/or ,have left christianity because the religion did not make sense. I have not heard of anyone saying that they believe christianity is true, but despite the fact have chosen against it due to moral objections.

 

I left mostly because of moral objections, though I believe it's not true. Even if it were true, I would refuse to worship a tyrant who creates a place like hell in the first place. NOTHING justifies the hell doctrine. Not Hitler, not Saddam. Nothing.

[Guest HansJansen]

Thanks for the reply.

 

I am with you on that one. My message of being tolerable is not a message for ex-christians exclusively but for all.

 

Sorry that you have been hurt.

 

Hans

[Guest HansJansen]

I left mostly because of moral objections, though I believe it's not true. Even if it were true, I would refuse to worship a tyrant who creates a place like hell in the first place. NOTHING justifies the hell doctrine. Not Hitler, not Saddam. Nothing.

 

I am with you on that one.

 

Eternal burning in the lake of fire does not make sense. If there will be only joy in heaven, then how on earth(or in heaven) can you have joy when people that was close to burn and burn and burn.

 

I believe that 90% of churches have got this one 100% wrong. I can tell you about what the bible says about hell if you are interested, but i will not even try and defend other church's opinion on hell doctrine.

 

Hans.

[Amethyst]

I left mostly because of moral objections, though I believe it's not true. Even if it were true, I would refuse to worship a tyrant who creates a place like hell in the first place. NOTHING justifies the hell doctrine. Not Hitler, not Saddam. Nothing.

 

I am with you on that one.

 

Eternal burning in the lake of fire does not make sense. If there will be only joy in heaven, then how on earth(or in heaven) can you have joy when people that was close to burn and burn and burn.

 

I believe that 90% of churches have got this one 100% wrong. I can tell you about what the bible says about hell if you are interested, but i will not even try and defend other church's opinion on hell doctrine.

 

Hans.

 

See, to me what the Bible actually says is moot. It is all fiction. Read the whole thing when I was about 12, and haven't taken it literally since. For a long time my brand of Christianity was liberal, but I realized I was doing the equivalent of cherry picking which of Santa's reindeer I wanted to believe in.