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Guest Shiva H. Vishnu

The Death Penalty

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Guest Shiva H. Vishnu

Before I weigh in, I'm just wondering what the x-c community has to say about it.

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Too much room for error. As long as people can make mistakes, I would rather ten guilty people get life imprisonment than one be executed wrongly, but I'm all for death penalties in civilian defense against life-threatening crime.

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I'm not completely against it, but I suspect way too many are convicted to death penalty. The only time I think it's somewhat reasonable is the convict is clearly guilty and without any doubts be a threat again if they're released.

 

But at the same time, I heard statistics that in California, inmates on death row have longer life than life sentece prisoners, and that it also costs more. Don't know if it's true though. Go figure, that death sentece is a longer life and more expensive for everyone.

 

And I agree, there's quite a risk of error.

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I abhor the death penalty. If this life is all we've got, then we are we to deprive others of any chance at finding happiness or contentment? Even when they have committed great wrongs? These are obviously people that need more time on earth to pursue true happiness.

 

I think life imprisonment in a humane, but secure, prison is sufficient.

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I abhor the death penalty. If this life is all we've got, then we are we to deprive others of any chance at finding happiness or contentment?

 

They have deprived others of any chance at it. They don't have rights to find happiness or contentment.

 

Why should the people carry the burden of taking care of criminals who will be a burden for the rest of their lives? Exile or Death and like was stated before, only if the act was voluntary, intentional and they are clearly guilty.

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I'm more against the prison system than the death penalty. It seems to me that the prison system only creates a subculture of criminals, some of which are able to organize behind bars and even have their own little empires - all subsidized with tax dollars. Perhaps I'm just stuck in another world in feeling like this, but I believe more in execution, exile, or fines/forced service to the community. Nothing seems more worse than the joke of providing free room and board to criminals, most of whom just repeat offenses when they get out.

 

I'm for the death penalty in theory, at least. If a person can be proven to have done something horrible enough to warrant removal from this earth as a fitting punishment, then I have no issue with it. Not all life is precious and some people just don't deserve to live. But of course, steps should be taken to make sure the guilty party gets the axe.

 

Granted, nothing is perfect. The death penalty nor any system of jurisprudence will ever be perfect. There is no such thing on earth. But some people just don't deserve to live after they've done something evil enough, and I'm wholly against coddling vipers.

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I abhor the death penalty. If this life is all we've got, then we are we to deprive others of any chance at finding happiness or contentment?

 

They have deprived others of any chance at it. They don't have rights to find happiness or contentment.

I agree totally. I wrote an english paper defending the death penalty based on the fundamental rights of all humans: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (happiness works better than property in this case, so that's what I used). Killing someone is taking away these rights, and to be just the punishment must fit the crime, ie taking away these rights. So, like many others have said, if the person is clearly guilty it can be justified.

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I find the death penalty problematic. I am aware of how it is often applied unfairly, etc. and my liberal instinct is to oppose it. BUT, having said that, I acknowledge that there are some cases (e.g., Timothy McVeigh, Osama Been Forgotten, or that guy in Florida who abducted and killed the little girl, etc.) where it doesn't bother me a bit, in the same way that I don't think it's wrong to exterminate disease-carrying vermin. Still, I think we'd all be just as well off if America joined the rest of the developed world and did away with capital punishment -- provided that the vermin are safely contained (i.e., life without parole) and not allowed to enjoy their confinement. :scratch: Guess I'm sort of an agnostic on this one.

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I find the death penalty problematic. I am aware of how it is often applied unfairly, etc. and my liberal instinct is to oppose it. BUT, having said that, I acknowledge that there are some cases (e.g., Timothy McVeigh, Osama Been Forgotten, or that guy in Florida who abducted and killed the little girl, etc.) where it doesn't bother me a bit, in the same way that I don't think it's wrong to exterminate disease-carrying vermin. Still, I think we'd all be just as well off if America joined the rest of the developed world and did away with capital punishment -- provided that the vermin are safely contained (i.e., life without parole) and not allowed to enjoy their confinement. :scratch: Guess I'm sort of an agnostic on this one.

 

You know, I think I would be happy with a lack of death penalty were the criminals to be stuck in a hole with minimal food and water, total isolation from everyone and everything.

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Guess I am in the minority, lol. I am VERY for the death penalty, and not only for murder, but for rapists and child molesters as well. You F with a child like that, automatic death (provided there is DNA evidence or something like that to prove it.) I have been a social worker for years, so the whole letting someone repent and find happiness even tho they made a mistake makes me sick. These kids might go on to lead normal lives, but they are forever broken in horrible ways. I beleive these vermin deserve those last few minutes of absolute horror before they die that they inflicted on their victims.

 

It makes me sick that children who are murdered are brutalized so horribly before being killed, and all these morons are now coming out talking about how lethal injection is too painful, when they don't even feel crap. ARGH. I need to walk away from this topic, too emotional for me I guess.

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It makes me sick that children who are murdered are brutalized so horribly before being killed, and all these morons are now coming out talking about how lethal injection is too painful, when they don't even feel crap. ARGH. I need to walk away from this topic, too emotional for me I guess.

 

Indeed. Being moderately liberal is ok, but being so liberal you insist on protecting the very people we rely on the authorities to protect us from is going too far. It's the same nonsensical line of thinking that has people apply an alcohol swab to the spot the lethal injection needle enters. I mean, whose head was up whose ass to think that one up? :shrug:

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Guess I am in the minority, lol. I am VERY for the death penalty, and not only for murder, but for rapists and child molesters as well. You F with a child like that, automatic death (provided there is DNA evidence or something like that to prove it.) I have been a social worker for years, so the whole letting someone repent and find happiness even tho they made a mistake makes me sick. These kids might go on to lead normal lives, but they are forever broken in horrible ways. I beleive these vermin deserve those last few minutes of absolute horror before they die that they inflicted on their victims.

 

Of course, anyone who presents themselves as a violent or psychologically disturbed person has no ability to function correctly in a society or obey the moral rules set forth should be put down. We do this with other beings who cannot function within human society (dogs, cats - other animals).

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Just a couple of points.

Humans have been killing each other for centuries, it doesn,t seem to make a better society.

We say as a society that killing and violence is wrong (politicians can argue that war negates that premise) and yet will kill someone for certain crimes. Do we as a society suffer if we allow a killer to dictate our behaviour? How sane is a society that says we must kill people who kill, in order to show that killing is wrong?

 

Don,t get me wrong. If someone killed someone I loved I would feel like killing them, probably, but I wouldn,t want society run on the basis of my impulse for revenge.

 

We need a better answer. There was a case recently in the USA of a former gang member who had been on death row for years, he had killed someone. Had reformed while inside and was doing good things. But he was still put to death. Where is the sense in that?

 

There is no easy answer to all this I admit.

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Humans have been killing each other for centuries, it doesn,t seem to make a better society.

 

We've also philosophized about things and counseled each other for centuries. By the same token, that hasn't improved society across the board, either.

 

We say as a society that killing and violence is wrong (politicians can argue that war negates that premise) and yet will kill someone for certain crimes.

 

We don't say that killing is wrong. Murder, yes, but not killing in general. I don't think any society has ever said that.

 

Do we as a society suffer if we allow a killer to dictate our behaviour?

 

Wouldn't letting a killer live be the same thing? Letting a murderer live just because he has a life to begin with - isn't that letting the criminal define our actions in a way?

 

How sane is a society that says we must kill people who kill, in order to show that killing is wrong?

 

Again, it's all about the difference between "killing" and "murder" - one is morally neutral, the other isn't.

 

Don,t get me wrong. If someone killed someone I loved I would feel like killing them, probably, but I wouldn,t want society run on the basis of my impulse for revenge.

 

What's wrong with revenge? Xianity has programmed us into thinking revenge is wrong over 2000 years. Why should wrong not be properly addressed?

 

We need a better answer. There was a case recently in the USA of a former gang member who had been on death row for years, he had killed someone. Had reformed while inside and was doing good things. But he was still put to death. Where is the sense in that?

 

Good - he paid for his crime. While it is true that executing him wouldn't bring his victim back, neither will the do-gooding of the "reformed" murderer. At least in death his crime was avenged.

 

There is no easy answer to all this I admit.

 

Agreed - in the end, no matter what we choose, there will be problems with it. There will be no easy fix to this. Kinda like anything, I suppose.

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Before I weigh in, I'm just wondering what the x-c community has to say about it.

 

 

I'm against the death penalty for a few reasons. It's not fairly implemented. One murderer can be killed while another murderer who had a more heinous crime can be saved. The cost to the states for people on death row are astronomical due to a Varity of reasons. There was a case in Boston that the FBI submitted false evidence and testimony to secure their case and the poor 4 guys spent a large part of their innocent life, (one died there) behind bars. sunday herald story here

 

I don't doubt this same thing has applied to innocent people on death row as well. I don't trust the government enough to prosecute a fair case

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Too much room for error. As long as people can make mistakes, I would rather ten guilty people get life imprisonment than one be executed wrongly, but I'm all for death penalties in civilian defense against life-threatening crime.

 

I agree completely. I guess it's a matter of who you put your trust in. I don't trust the government- they're demonstrably corrupt and incompetent in just about every issue they decide to interfere with... our criminal justice system is no different. I realize that a criminal justice system is neccesary and can never be perfect. Vengence isn't a legitimate function of government, and killing a man who is already in a cage solves few problems. I just don't see any reason to give our government the authority to ritualistically (and unneccesarily) kill its own citizens.

 

Again, it's all about the difference between "killing" and "murder" - one is morally neutral, the other isn't.

The only difference between "killing" and "murder" is legality. Who makes laws? People do. Therefore the only difference between the two is which people approve of the killing, how many approve of it, and whether or not they've bothered to write that approval down on paper.

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Just a couple of points.

Humans have been killing each other for centuries, it doesn,t seem to make a better society.

We say as a society that killing and violence is wrong (politicians can argue that war negates that premise) and yet will kill someone for certain crimes. Do we as a society suffer if we allow a killer to dictate our behaviour? How sane is a society that says we must kill people who kill, in order to show that killing is wrong?

 

Don,t get me wrong. If someone killed someone I loved I would feel like killing them, probably, but I wouldn,t want society run on the basis of my impulse for revenge.

 

We need a better answer. There was a case recently in the USA of a former gang member who had been on death row for years, he had killed someone. Had reformed while inside and was doing good things. But he was still put to death. Where is the sense in that?

 

There is no easy answer to all this I admit.

 

I don't believe in the death penalty to teach society anything, I believe in it for revenge, plain and simple. If that makes me a bad person, so be it. In fact, if anyone ever touched one of my babies, I wouldn't allow that person to go through the criminal justice system, it is way too easy. I'd take care of it myself, and I'd make the islamofacist beheadings look like a picnic, I can guarentee you that.

 

And to me, I think an INsane society takes pity on POS child molesters. It's the sane society that does something about it. And since we know pedophiles can never change, death is the best option. Children should be protected at all costs.

 

And that gang member you talked about is a joke. The liberal media made up all that reformed crap to get clemency. Every single prison guard testified he not only NEVER reformed, he maintained his status as gang leader and ordered hits from prison until the day he died. Good riddance to a piece of garbage, IMHO. I have a link to the crime scene photos of what he did if you would like to see them. He was filth.

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I'm thankful that our legal system is based on something A BIT more substantial than revenge.

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I abhor the death penalty. If this life is all we've got, then we are we to deprive others of any chance at finding happiness or contentment? Even when they have committed great wrongs? These are obviously people that need more time on earth to pursue true happiness.

Some people just don't have the ability to feel empathy or sympathy. Some of these serial killers only feel happiness when they torture and kill someone. There's no hope for these, unless we find ways of medically cure what's wrong in their brains.

 

I think life imprisonment in a humane, but secure, prison is sufficient.

Prison isn't really humane. They are outside the law. In a way, probably death penalty is more humane than having someone in regular prison. :scratch:

 

I wish there was a way of fixing them. To find the exact problem and treat it. But then the moralists will claim it's unethical to change someones behavior.

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And that gang member you talked about is a joke. The liberal media made up all that reformed crap to get clemency. Every single prison guard testified he not only NEVER reformed, he maintained his status as gang leader and ordered hits from prison until the day he died. Good riddance to a piece of garbage, IMHO. I have a link to the crime scene photos of what he did if you would like to see them. He was filth.

 

Where did you get that - Faux News??????? It's simply not true. There were several people, including 2 of the guards, that testified that he had reformed. He spent the past 20 years writing anti-gang literature that was used in several schools and police outreach activities across the U.S. Killing him accomplished nothing.

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And to me, I think an INsane society takes pity on POS child molesters. It's the sane society that does something about it. And since we know pedophiles can never change, death is the best option. Children should be protected at all costs.

Like the guy that was sucking the toes on some kids. Let's execute him. But the guy that tortured, killed and ate people, let's have him around. He's such a nice chap... :) (Just don't accept a dinner invitation from him.)

 

The punishment has to fit the crime. To execute a child molester is pure revenge only. (Even though we're disgusted by their actions, we can't punish based on our level of disgust.)

 

And that gang member you talked about is a joke. The liberal media made up all that reformed crap to get clemency.

Very true. The media is on a mission to white-wash the serious criminals, and demonize regular citizens. I've noticed that trend in some reports on TV. Regular citizen, screwing up something because they're overloaded with work, get blame, while the gangster in prison is such a wonderful being.

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And to me, I think an INsane society takes pity on POS child molesters. It's the sane society that does something about it.

 

Exactly. Insane societies, ones that have not yet shed the simpering, viper-coddling, repentance-over-revenge philosophies of Xianity are not behaving sanely. When we look at it, that's the only place society acquired this notion of locking the bad guys up safe in a nice big building instead of taking care of them immiedately through execution or exile or forced labor - the Xian churches. Keeping the bad guys alive so they can "repent" and "turn to Jeezus™" is part of the entire notion behind prisons, I think. In the ancient world, where people didn't live for the afterlife and judged others based on merit and actions, justice was fairer. The more we ignore the past, the more we need its wisdom.

 

I'm thankful that our legal system is based on something A BIT more substantial than revenge.

 

Why? What's wrong with revenge? And since the legal system presides over a country even more violent and dangerous for the common man than past civilizations were, I fail to see where the legal system is so superior - or even justifiable anymore.

 

Prison isn't really humane. They are outside the law. In a way, probably death penalty is more humane than having someone in regular prison. :scratch:

 

Very true. The media is on a mission to white-wash the serious criminals, and demonize regular citizens. I've noticed that trend in some reports on TV. Regular citizen, screwing up something because they're overloaded with work, get blame, while the gangster in prison is such a wonderful being.

 

Very true - prisons are hellholes. Criminals do get overall better treatment and a level of coddling that blamless people don't get even in a socialist society, but the prisons can easily turn lesser offenders into worse criminals. And the prison system creates a culture where criminals are idolized and celebrated. Just look at today's culture. Criminals are cheered and boring wimps who work 9-5 are considered as just that - boring wimps.

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The punishment has to fit the crime. To execute a child molester is pure revenge only. (Even though we're disgusted by their actions, we can't punish based on our level of disgust.)

 

 

Licking toes? If that's all the guy did, I'd be ok with life in prison. :lmao:

 

Seriously tho, one of my first cases as a social worker was with a bio dad who was repeatedly raping his daughter, starting at age 8, recording these rapes, and posting them on the internet. We had to watch the videos in court. The child was in so much pain and so scared, traumatized, etc while it was going on, she would cry so much her eyes would swell shut and she would start vomitting. Just seemed to get dad off more. Believe me when I tell you I wasn't the only one who wanted to take matters into my own hands. I simply don't get people who think scum like this deserve life.

 

The hearbreaking part of the story was when the girl, who was 14 when this finally went to trial, asked if there was any way we could make sure the videos were off the internet so no one could see them anymore. We had to tell her no, there was no way we could do that. She was on serious meds for depression. Every time she went out in public and a man looked at her, she believed he saw her on the net and recoginized her. But ya, her dad deserves a cushy life in prison for a couple years. Ok.

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Just a couple of points.

Humans have been killing each other for centuries, it doesn,t seem to make a better society.

 

It's not about societal betterment. It's about protecting people's rights.

 

We say as a society that killing and violence is wrong (politicians can argue that war negates that premise) and yet will kill someone for certain crimes. Do we as a society suffer if we allow a killer to dictate our behaviour? How sane is a society that says we must kill people who kill, in order to show that killing is wrong?

 

Killing and violence is not wrong. The only thing that would be allowing a killer to dictate our behaviour is if we were to condone their behaviour by letting them live or remain within society.

Don,t get me wrong. If someone killed someone I loved I would feel like killing them, probably, but I wouldn,t want society run on the basis of my impulse for revenge.

 

It's not about revenge, it's about protection and justice.

 

We need a better answer. There was a case recently in the USA of a former gang member who had been on death row for years, he had killed someone. Had reformed while inside and was doing good things. But he was still put to death. Where is the sense in that?

 

Current death penalty laws in the US are stupid, as is the over-saturated justice system. I don't think we were really talking about a specific justice system, just justice in general.

 

I don't believe in the death penalty to teach society anything, I believe in it for revenge, plain and simple. If that makes me a bad person, so be it. In fact, if anyone ever touched one of my babies, I wouldn't allow that person to go through the criminal justice system, it is way too easy. I'd take care of it myself, and I'd make the islamofacist beheadings look like a picnic, I can guarentee you that.

 

And to me, I think an INsane society takes pity on POS child molesters. It's the sane society that does something about it. And since we know pedophiles can never change, death is the best option. Children should be protected at all costs.

 

And that gang member you talked about is a joke. The liberal media made up all that reformed crap to get clemency. Every single prison guard testified he not only NEVER reformed, he maintained his status as gang leader and ordered hits from prison until the day he died. Good riddance to a piece of garbage, IMHO. I have a link to the crime scene photos of what he did if you would like to see them. He was filth.

 

I am also thankful that our justice system isn't based on over-emotionalized bullshit. Rationalization is the only answer to this, not lynch-mobs and misinformation.

 

The punishment has to fit the crime. To execute a child molester is pure revenge only. (Even though we're disgusted by their actions, we can't punish based on our level of disgust.)

 

No, to execute a child molester is pure justice. I would rather be killed as a child than molested as one. I'm not sure if you are aware of the repercussions of a child molester's actions, but I can assure you that they are life-long and leave deep scars. Look at some of the people here who are victims of that, even 20 years ago!

 

Now you can add the number of people that a molester has victimized and then look at all the fucked up people in the world because of what happened to them. Then you can look at how those people possibly treat their own children and so on. A child molestor has no right to live, Han. Not because it's disgusting, but because he has revoked his rights.

 

Again, I'm completely content with sticking those kinds of criminals, ones who willfully and knowingly committed an act, in a hole with minimal food and water and complete isolation from all humanity, or killing them. As long as they are isolated and removed from society, that is all that is necessary.

 

Children should be protected at all costs.

 

No, people should be protected at all costs. Children aren't any more or less special than other human beings. They aren't more valuable.

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I am also thankful that our justice system isn't based on over-emotionalized bullshit. Rationalization is the only answer to this, not lynch-mobs and misinformation.

 

No, people should be protected at all costs. Children aren't any more or less special than other human beings. They aren't more valuable.

 

When did I ever say that the legal system should execute people based on revenge? Am I not allowed to have my own personal reasons to support the death penalty??

 

And I need far less protection than my children do, and I am sure most adults don't fall prey to internet pedophiles, etc. And I have never gotten into a car b/c someone offered me candy, but I can cite several stories where kids did, and it wasn't a happy ending. I said kids needed more protection, not that they are more valuble.

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