Asimov Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 I said kids needed more protection, not that they are more valuble. No, you said children should be protected at all costs, as if their worth is greater than the worth of other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrawberrySundae Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 I said kids needed more protection, not that they are more valuble. No, you said children should be protected at all costs, as if their worth is greater than the worth of other people. You don't need to take every single thing I say so literally. Just b/c I am discussing children at this particular time, doesn't mean they are my only concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 You don't need to take every single thing I say so literally. Just b/c I am discussing children at this particular time, doesn't mean they are my only concern. Ok, you do sound like a fanatical person ranting about how we should kill everyone and everything who even thinks about harming children, you know that don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 When did I ever say that the legal system should execute people based on revenge? Am I not allowed to have my own personal reasons to support the death penalty?? Here ya' go. I don't believe in the death penalty to teach society anything, I believe in it for revenge, plain and simple. Having an opinion is all fine and good... but maybe you ought to calm down a bit. You ain't makin' much sense. I'm thankful that our legal system is based on something A BIT more substantial than revenge. Why? What's wrong with revenge? And since the legal system presides over a country even more violent and dangerous for the common man than past civilizations were, I fail to see where the legal system is so superior - or even justifiable anymore. I don't think there's anything WRONG with revenge in and of itself- I just don't think it's a legitimate function of government. Do you really want laws based on REVENGE? I can't say that I long for the return of biblical punishments. I'm not arguing that our legal system is either 'superior' or 'justifiable'. Hell, it's neither, and that's one good reason why I'm against capital punishment. Care to give me an example of a "sane" society that has EVER existed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hero of Hyrule Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 I'm against death penatly, because you can't be sure you're not punishing somebody who's innocent. In case of extreme crimes were you'd like to kill people for (Such as skinning their mother alive and wearing her skinn as cloak(It happened, the boy mad mad) it's far more of a vengance to let them live for the rest of their lives in prison than to kill them. In case of Child molesters, they do not have a nice life in prison, and if I wanted to punish hem, I'd rather leave them in a group of 'nicer' criminals than to kill them and be done with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrawberrySundae Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 When did I ever say that the legal system should execute people based on revenge? Am I not allowed to have my own personal reasons to support the death penalty?? Here ya' go. I don't believe in the death penalty to teach society anything, I believe in it for revenge, plain and simple. Ok, so you quoted me to prove my own point? I said *I* believe in it for revenge, you quoted me saying such, and are trying to use it to prove I said I think the government should feel that way, and now are saying *I* don't make sense? Ok... And Asimov, seriously. Stop putting words in my mouth. If you have a different opinion, good for you. Why don't you try debating the issue rather than misquoting me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 I'm the type of person who, were I to have been wronged badly enough, would do everything in my power to see that those who wronged me lived a very long time. Reason I believe in the death penalty is not because of punishment at all. It is to rid the world of those who would never serve it, those who can't be made to function, and who would simply take up space and money to be housed in prison. These are the people who are guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, the ones who would commit another crime, be it in the world or incarcerated. There's no reason that they should be left alive, and bacause of the satisfaction of vengeance, which, for the families of the victims, or the victims themselves, may never be total, simple execution is a more humane and economical problem solver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 When did I ever say that the legal system should execute people based on revenge? Am I not allowed to have my own personal reasons to support the death penalty?? Here ya' go. I don't believe in the death penalty to teach society anything, I believe in it for revenge, plain and simple. Ok, so you quoted me to prove my own point? I said *I* believe in it for revenge, you quoted me saying such, and are trying to use it to prove I said I think the government should feel that way, and now are saying *I* don't make sense? Ok... And Asimov, seriously. Stop putting words in my mouth. If you have a different opinion, good for you. Why don't you try debating the issue rather than misquoting me? The death penalty is the application of government regulation on a society by definition. It's a penalty for crossing the societal lines we've drawn. Therefore, you saying that you support the death penatly for the plain and simple reason of revenge is the same thing. If it was simple misrepresentation, the fault is in how it was written and how it was interpreted. I didn't put words into your mouth, nor have I misquoted you. Anyways, I've said my piece about the death penalty, if anyone has an issue with my points they can reply to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 Oh, another point about child molesters, they rarely live a a good or protected life in prison. They are the lowest in the food-chain. For a child molester, it would be better for him (safer, and he would live longer) if he got death penalty. Anyone that hurt children and women (not killing, but only hurting or raping) are in most danger of being killed in the common groups in prison. (If what I heard and read is true.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrawberrySundae Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 When I said you were misquoting me, I was referring to when I said this: Seriously tho, one of my first cases as a social worker was with a bio dad who was repeatedly raping his daughter, starting at age 8, recording these rapes, and posting them on the internet. We had to watch the videos in court. The child was in so much pain and so scared, traumatized, etc while it was going on, she would cry so much her eyes would swell shut and she would start vomitting. Just seemed to get dad off more. Believe me when I tell you I wasn't the only one who wanted to take matters into my own hands. I simply don't get people who think scum like this deserve life. I said as a result we need to do everything we can to protect kids. To which you replied: Ok, you do sound like a fanatical person ranting about how we should kill everyone and everything who even thinks about harming children, you know that don't you? Pretty far stretch to say I think anyone who thinks of harming kids should be killed, don't you think? If you don't agree with the death penalty in the case I stated above, fine. But to say I am a fanatical ranting, come on. The OP asked for personal opinions about the death penalty, not how we feel the government should deal with the death penalty. Han Solo- I have heard this many times as well and asked a few friends who are CO's and cops. They say initially the molesters and rapists have a harder time, but not much. And after a while, it is no big deal. It is more an issue of size and gang affiliation. If you are in the right gang, whether you are a molester or not, you get it easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 Well I think in general, Han, that all criminals should be kept in total isolation from other human beings while they serve out their sentence. If you give a kid a time-out, you don't put him with a bunch of other kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scitsofreaky Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 Well I think in general, Han, that all criminals should be kept in total isolation from other human beings while they serve out their sentence. If you give a kid a time-out, you don't put him with a bunch of other kids. I have to disagree with you here. Total isolation does terrible things to humans, but then there are released back into society. So then we would have a bunch of totally fucked up ex-cons who in all likelyhood could never reintegrate back into society and end up either on the street or back in prison. I think rehabilitation should be a part of the sentences of prisoners who are going to be released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 I have bowed myself out of this conversation because I don't want to be mean. I would say nasty things. Now I have an observation of sorts: It's interesting (to me, at least) how many people are still for the death penalty as an ex-christian. I was not a liberal Christian who disagreed with the death penalty being something that the state endorses, I was all for it. Now, however, I have changed my mind due to my beliefs. I thought this would be common, but it doesn't seem to be. I think it's interesting how many ex-Christians keep the same opinions they had on life and death issues that they had as Christians, such as abortion, capital punishment, and euthanasia. Is that because I am more easily influenced by my peers (went to a somewhat liberal college campus, was a religion major) or should leaving Christianity really change someone's view on these things? Personally, I find it interesting that they do... but they probably think I'm a bleeding heart liberal for thinking that they should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtheistMommy Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 Before I weigh in, I'm just wondering what the x-c community has to say about it. Population control saves money can be abused I have bowed myself out of this conversation because I don't want to be mean. I would say nasty things. Now I have an observation of sorts: It's interesting (to me, at least) how many people are still for the death penalty as an ex-christian. I was not a liberal Christian who disagreed with the death penalty being something that the state endorses, I was all for it. Now, however, I have changed my mind due to my beliefs. I thought this would be common, but it doesn't seem to be. I think it's interesting how many ex-Christians keep the same opinions they had on life and death issues that they had as Christians, such as abortion, capital punishment, and euthanasia. Is that because I am more easily influenced by my peers (went to a somewhat liberal college campus, was a religion major) or should leaving Christianity really change someone's view on these things? Personally, I find it interesting that they do... but they probably think I'm a bleeding heart liberal for thinking that they should. Funny, I thought the same. I mean sure. Why not? But as an Atheist I value the life of those I hold dear to my heart. I care about other people, mostly children. But I hold no love for those who have killed for fun. So if they die, I have no problem with it. Ya know? Well I think in general, Han, that all criminals should be kept in total isolation from other human beings while they serve out their sentence. If you give a kid a time-out, you don't put him with a bunch of other kids. I have to disagree with you here. Total isolation does terrible things to humans, but then there are released back into society. So then we would have a bunch of totally fucked up ex-cons who in all likelyhood could never reintegrate back into society and end up either on the street or back in prison. I think rehabilitation should be a part of the sentences of prisoners who are going to be released. You mean we don't have that already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 Before I weigh in, I'm just wondering what the x-c community has to say about it. Population control saves money can be abused I have bowed myself out of this conversation because I don't want to be mean. I would say nasty things. Now I have an observation of sorts: It's interesting (to me, at least) how many people are still for the death penalty as an ex-christian. I was not a liberal Christian who disagreed with the death penalty being something that the state endorses, I was all for it. Now, however, I have changed my mind due to my beliefs. I thought this would be common, but it doesn't seem to be. I think it's interesting how many ex-Christians keep the same opinions they had on life and death issues that they had as Christians, such as abortion, capital punishment, and euthanasia. Is that because I am more easily influenced by my peers (went to a somewhat liberal college campus, was a religion major) or should leaving Christianity really change someone's view on these things? Personally, I find it interesting that they do... but they probably think I'm a bleeding heart liberal for thinking that they should. Funny, I thought the same. I mean sure. Why not? But as an Atheist I value the life of those I hold dear to my heart. I care about other people, mostly children. But I hold no love for those who have killed for fun. So if they die, I have no problem with it. Ya know? Well I think in general, Han, that all criminals should be kept in total isolation from other human beings while they serve out their sentence. If you give a kid a time-out, you don't put him with a bunch of other kids. I have to disagree with you here. Total isolation does terrible things to humans, but then there are released back into society. So then we would have a bunch of totally fucked up ex-cons who in all likelyhood could never reintegrate back into society and end up either on the street or back in prison. I think rehabilitation should be a part of the sentences of prisoners who are going to be released. You mean we don't have that already? I should have said, "or should leaving Christianity change someone's views on these thing if they are truly compassionate people?" And no, I do not think that prisoners are rehabilitated adequately. The statistics proove otherwise if you think that rehabilitation is possible, and I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtheistMommy Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 I should have said, "or should leaving Christianity change someone's views on these thing if they are truly compassionate people?" And no, I do not think that prisoners are rehabilitated adequately. The statistics proove otherwise if you think that rehabilitation is possible, and I do. I've got mixed feelings about the whole thing. However, I agree prisoners are not adequately rehablitated. There's just so much abuse of the whole system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 I have mixed feelings, too... I don't trust myself, maybe my inclination to think it's more "moral" to be against the death penalty is just because of my social influences, not because it is actually more moral. Maybe it's more moral to be for the death penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtheistMommy Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 I have mixed feelings, too... I don't trust myself, maybe my inclination to think it's more "moral" to be against the death penalty is just because of my social influences, not because it is actually more moral. Maybe it's more moral to be for the death penalty. I don't know, it is a touchy situation. I mean on one hand, if someone goes around killing people for fun there might not be any hope for them and it might be in the public's best interest to terminate that person. Of course, I'm willing to bet this same person has some serious brain damage. On the other hand, there are still people who go to jail, even go to death row and are totally innocent. Then there are those who abuse the system. It's all very confusing. Your right both can be immoral and moral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 You know what's funny. When I was Christian I was extremely against death penalty, since we as moral people should give these people as much chance as possible to receive Jesus. Now when I'm apostate, I do consider death penalty reasonable in some instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuaiDan Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 I think politicians who accept bribes should be subject to the death penalty. AFTER watching their spouse and children get gang raped by a prison gang then eaten by a pack of wild dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 Well I think in general, Han, that all criminals should be kept in total isolation from other human beings while they serve out their sentence. If you give a kid a time-out, you don't put him with a bunch of other kids. I have to disagree with you here. Total isolation does terrible things to humans, but then there are released back into society. So then we would have a bunch of totally fucked up ex-cons who in all likelyhood could never reintegrate back into society and end up either on the street or back in prison. I think rehabilitation should be a part of the sentences of prisoners who are going to be released. Yea, my contention is with AM...we don't have that now? Why should we integrate them back into society? Just a question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibby Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 It's not about societal betterment. It's about protecting people's rights. People can only have rights in an ordered society, where those rights can find expression as long as they don,t inpinge on the common good. I believe we can always work to improve society for the good of allowing people the expression of their rights, and with them their responsibilities. Killing and violence is not wrong. The only thing that would be allowing a killer to dictate our behaviour is if we were to condone their behaviour by letting them live or remain within society. If its not wrong then why imprison anyone? Their behaviour is not condoned. That is why they are imprisoned. I believe state murder causes us to lose some of our civilized, human values. Not all victims of horrific crimes believe in the death penalty. It might be good for us to ask those people how they were able to rise above hatred. Also, the criminals themselves have mums, dads, brothers, sisters etc. It's not about revenge, it's about protection and justice. Yes. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 People can only have rights in an ordered society, where those rights can find expression as long as they don,t inpinge on the common good. I believe we can always work to improve society for the good of allowing people the expression of their rights, and with them their responsibilities. Improving society is a side-effect of the protection of rights. If its not wrong then why imprison anyone? False dichotomy, just because killing and violence isn't wrong doesn't automatically make it right. Murder itself is wrong, that's why we imprison people. Also, the criminals themselves have mums, dads, brothers, sisters etc. So? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 Until they make life imprisonment real imprisonment (take away their fuckin' CABLE TV and Playstation)...may as well kill them. And no 20 years on death row either. Six months tops. But if they made imprisonment unpleasant......I wouldn't kill anybody. You cannot make the dead suffer, and so you cannot punish them for their crimes. Child molesters? Just put them in with the murderers. They will be in hell. There is morality in prison, and one solid "rule" is you don't fuck with little kids. Their fellow inmates will make this scumsuckers life a nightmare (and they'll likely end his life too). And cases that have been scientifically proven (DNA convictions), there should be a special prison for these criminals. REALLY unpleasant ones. No windows and cruddy 20 watt bulbs for lighting. 20 year old National Geographics for reading material for the general population. Black and white network tv. Boring food menus that only change once a month. No coffee. Scratchy blankets. And prisoners who fight get thrown into a real hole (Shawshank Redemption style). Pitch black and preferrably very damp. See if the risk of pneumonia or other disease is worth the fight. Prisoners want to riot over conditions? Let them. These prision would be built to strongly discourage escape with electric fences, razorwire, and big stone walls. The guards can just hang out in their safe rooms for a week. Let the prisoners take their anger out on each other for a while. See how pissy they stay when no one removes the corpses or gives them clean water or food. Sound unpleasant? Good! People who disregard the freedoms of others enough to hurt or kill them deserve to have their own freedoms disregarded. But this level of severity would be reserved for those persons convicted with DNA evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 DNA evidence is a long way from foolproof. It can and has been misinterpreted, forged, and generally screwed up plenty of times. IF prisoners are going to be released back into society, then fucking them up even further will cause problems for everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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