The Death Penalty

[scitsofreaky]

You mean we don't have that already?

I know we already have that, our system is far less than even good IMO. My objection was purely focused on what Asimov proposed.

Yea, my contention is with AM...we don't have that now?

We do have that problem now, but that doesn't justify doing something different with the same result. Why not fix the problem?

Why should we integrate them back into society? Just a question.

Asimov just asking a question Once a prisoner is released (I'm assuming nobody thinks every criminal should get at least a life sentence) he/she is back in society whether we like it or not. Without proper integration it is likely that the person would contribute nothing, and possibly become a burden on society. Additionally, after serving one's term, the debt to society is paid in full, so the punishment should end. But without rehabilitation, the punishment doesn't end, so every sentence can become a life sentence.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

This is a far more bloodthirsty lot than I expected.

[pandora]

This is a far more bloodthirsty lot than I expected.

 

Same here.

[Asimov]

We do have that problem now, but that doesn't justify doing something different with the same result. Why not fix the problem?

 

How do we know it will have the same result? Isolating prisoners from prisoners to prevent shit like what we have is fixing it. Ok, so rehabilitation into society by talking about councellor, maybe getting set up on some kind of job. Still, other prisoners shouldn't come into contact with each other.

 

Once a prisoner is released (I'm assuming nobody thinks every criminal should get at least a life sentence) he/she is back in society whether we like it or not. Without proper integration it is likely that the person would contribute nothing, and possibly become a burden on society. Additionally, after serving one's term, the debt to society is paid in full, so the punishment should end. But without rehabilitation, the punishment doesn't end, so every sentence can become a life sentence.

 

First off, I think we should establish a baseline as to exactly what we mean by crime.

 

Are we talking about abuse, murder, rape, larceny? I think those are the only issues that should be considered criminal. If someone has any others they'd like to bring to the table, then ok.

 

Unless the person is incapable of discerning right from wrong, nobody has any excuse in commiting one of those crimes. You do these things willfully, knowingly, and with intent to do so.

 

1) Why should we integrate these people into society?

2) What use do we have of these people living in our society when it is shown that they knowingly, willfully and are intent on disrupting the working of society? They know what they are doing is wrong yet they do it anyways and want to do it.

 

We have no use for these people. They are a burden on society as soon as the crime is commited.

[white_raven23]

This is a far more bloodthirsty lot than I expected.

 

You spend enough time studying the baddest of the bad......

 

You look at full color photos of what people have done to other people.....

 

Re-hab is a nice warm fuzzy idea. I can see where it could work for first time commiters of minor crimes. But for your harded criminal who treats the prison system like a revolving door? How about your criminal who goes to jail for raping and murdering a little girl.....gets released from prison fifteen, twenty years later......and rapes and kills ANOTHER little girl (it's happened).....come off it! What do you say to the parents? "Oops, I guess he wasn't sufficiently re-habilitated"?

 

You want to think of me as bloodthristy because I don't want to see some ass-scum who rapes, tortures, rapes, then kills a young woman and throws her corpse in a dumpster, get freaking Spa treatment when he goes to prison? That's just fine for me.

 

I'd rather be labelled bloodthirsty than forget the innocent victim instead of making sure the jerk who took her precious life away, who ignored her begging, tears, screams, and prayers, has the right brand of bottled water.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

What do spa treatments and bottled water have to do with anything?

[pandora]

What do spa treatments and bottled water have to do with anything?

 

Don't you know, Shiva, that those prisoners have a life that we should all be jealous of?

 

In Scandinavian countries, where crime is lower, the prisons are much "nicer" to their guests than the US prisons. They have a much lower rate of repeat offenders, as well... whether that's due to cultural differences and sociological differences (such as the differences in demographics of the prisoners) remains yet to be seen, but it's an interesting point to ponder.

[white_raven23]

What do spa treatments and bottled water have to do with anything?

 

It's just me being sarcastic. I think prisons lack a certain prison-ness anymore. When career criminals commit crimes just so they can get caught and get sent back to jail.......there's something seriously wrong with the prison atmosphere if there are people who want to be there.

 

And a lot of those prisons are way NICE. Prisons shouldn't be nicer than the schools we send kids to.

[pandora]

I think prisoners want back in because they have such a hard time reintegrating into society. They are not given the tools needed to be successful and no longer "need" prison to survive. I don't think they want back just because the accomodations are so nice....

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Can you make your point without hyperbole? There is no way in hell that prisons are "nicer" than schools. They may be newer and more secure, by necessity, but I think maybe you need to reevaluate your idea of "nice". If you lock me inside with a bunch of criminals, I don't care if there are couches and tvs and sometimes I get ice cream - there's nothing nice about that. There is something humane about it, as opposed to putting each prisoner in solitary confinement and giving them scraps of bread and pond water, or even killing all of them which some of you seem to be proposing (baffling)

 

Personally, I don't want to kill anyone. If someone raped and murdered my sister I'm sure my rage might precipitate a change of heart, but I'd rather not be guided by my rage.

 

I understand why people are in favor of the death penalty. The urge to kill something is pretty primal, and here we have one of the few socially accepted killing fields still around in the west. It doesn't surprise me that many see it as okay to cater to their baser desires where society has told them that it is acceptible.

 

Personally, I take no satisfaction from watching people die, whether they are "evil" or not. Any one of us could just as easily been born into a tortured life or a body with an imbalanced brain, and gone down a path that leads into darkness. Do we believe in souls? Do we think that criminals are just "bad souls"? Or are they people just like you and me with extremely complicated lives and a totally unique perspective - one that begs to be understood.

 

I feel for the victims of crime. I feel for everyone who suffers. That includes the criminals. But most of all, the idea that even one innocent person has spent 10 years on death row enduring unimaginable state sponsored psychological torture and was finally killed BY US, is 100% intolerable to me. Too many people on death row have been exonerated for us to have the level of confidence in the system necessary to justify exocution, even if you think that some deserve to die.

[pandora]

Thank you, Shiva! I am in complete agreement.

 

If someone murders someone, it is highly likely that the person already has some messed up neurotransmitters, and thus it would be unjust to kill them. I have always thought that.

 

I am amazed that for some of you, revenge is a justifiable reason to endorse capital punishment.

 

I am not naive to this scene, either... my 16 year old cousin was brutally raped and stabbed, and then burned (to cover evidence) by a crackhead when I was merely 15 years old. The death penalty was an option that the prosecution wished to pursue, but no one in our family wanted that.... and her parents weren't even Christian.

[Ouroboros]

In Scandinavian countries, where crime is lower, the prisons are much "nicer" to their guests than the US prisons. They have a much lower rate of repeat offenders, as well... whether that's due to cultural differences and sociological differences (such as the differences in demographics of the prisoners) remains yet to be seen, but it's an interesting point to ponder.

Yup. Like in Sweden. Crime rate used to be only 1/4 of US. But it has changed over the last years, so I heard from my family there. It might be explained by a higher amount of immigration or tougher economy, I don't know. Maybe it's lower because it's so frigging cold in the winter? It's too difficult to rob a bank in two/three layers of clothers, hat and mittens. Hehe.

 

I am amazed that for some of you, revenge is a justifiable reason to endorse capital punishment.

Isn't justice just another way of saying revenge? Just a thought.. An eye for and eye kind'a thing.

[white_raven23]

I just feel that some crimes (not all of them) make the person who committed the crime unworthy of humane treatment.

 

And no I don't want to kill everyone. What I wrote earlier is what I would like. That would be supposing that our justice system were perfect. It's not, so what I would like to see is not feasable.

 

You remind me a little of my father Shiva. We go round and round on the death penalty. He actually believes incarceration is sufficient punishment. I don't think it would be.

 

Because if I killed someone, I wouldn't have a problem with incarceration as it exists. Big library, internet access (even limited), workout equipment, tv, healthy meals. Hell, I'd be in better overall condition than I am in right now! Heck, I'd write a book! And since I don't smoke, I'd get full advantage from the prison barter system.

 

Now....in that scenario, how am I being punished? I'm not really an outdoorsy person in general, and during winter most folk spend damn near all their time inside a building. 9 straight months every year. Inside. Excepting quick walks between car and building, you wind up spending less time outside overall than prisons insisting inmates have some outdoor time.

 

And as long as the scenery in my mind is capable of changing (and hoooboy is it!), my physical location is irrelevant.

 

So how am I being punished?

 

THAT is the criminal I worry about. The one who is like me. Incarceration wouldn't be a punishment for them.

[Lycorth]

I don't think there's anything WRONG with revenge in and of itself- I just don't think it's a legitimate function of government.

 

Why? Why should the government not avenge certain henious crimes committed on its law-abiding citizens?

 

Do you really want laws based on REVENGE?

 

I want laws based ultimately on the concept of justice, which in some cases would also end up avenging victims of certain crimes. However, the basic concept of revenge = the innocent getting their due from those who have harmed them is a good concept to me.

 

I can't say that I long for the return of biblical punishments.

 

What does the death penalty have to do with the Holah Babble™? The Babble contradicts itself on the issue of the death penalty as much as it does on any moral issue. Parts of the book are in support of it, other parts are against it.

 

I'm not arguing that our legal system is either 'superior' or 'justifiable'. Hell, it's neither, and that's one good reason why I'm against capital punishment.

 

Care to give me an example of a "sane" society that has EVER existed?

 

No society that has ever existed has been wholly "sane" - ie, a utopia for its citizens - but certain concepts are more sane than others, I'll argue. The death penalty is one of them, where it can be proven the accused did indeed commit a crime worthy of death.

 

As I've said, I think prisons are a worse thing than the death penalty. They are places that allow criminals to be sheltered and give them a chance to network if they wish, or at least to revel in a culture that supports their criminal attitudes. Prisons aren't places that magically brainwash the criminal mentality out of an offender. Measuring rehabilitation by the number of days on the calendar an offender spends in prison is no sane measurement of rehabilitation. Rehabilitation is over-exaggerated anyway because, as Asimov said, why bother integrating them back into society? Just execute the violent criminal and be done with it. That's the least burdensome thing to do in any case.

 

How can rehabilitation be proven, anyway? I'd think it's more difficult to verify a violent criminal has been reprogrammed to be a law-abiding citizen than it is to prove guilt in a crime warranting death, plus I think it's more dangerous to let people out of prison who can't be proven to be rehabilitated, since this gives them the chance to committ similar crimes again.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

I just feel that some crimes (not all of them) make the person who committed the crime unworthy of humane treatment.

 

And no I don't want to kill everyone. What I wrote earlier is what I would like. That would be supposing that our justice system were perfect. It's not, so what I would like to see is not feasable.

 

You remind me a little of my father Shiva. We go round and round on the death penalty. He actually believes incarceration is sufficient punishment. I don't think it would be.

 

Because if I killed someone, I wouldn't have a problem with incarceration as it exists. Big library, internet access (even limited), workout equipment, tv, healthy meals. Hell, I'd be in better overall condition than I am in right now! Heck, I'd write a book! And since I don't smoke, I'd get full advantage from the prison barter system.

 

Now....in that scenario, how am I being punished? I'm not really an outdoorsy person in general, and during winter most folk spend damn near all their time inside a building. 9 straight months every year. Inside. Excepting quick walks between car and building, you wind up spending less time outside overall than prisons insisting inmates have some outdoor time.

 

And as long as the scenery in my mind is capable of changing (and hoooboy is it!), my physical location is irrelevant.

 

So how am I being punished?

 

THAT is the criminal I worry about. The one who is like me. Incarceration wouldn't be a punishment for them.

 

I'm not concerned with punishing anyone. Seriously. I know that might be hard to understand. I'm all for keeping violent criminals away from society where they cannot damage innocent people, but as far as making sure they are miserable? I don't want to make them miserable. To me, that's not the goal of incarceration.

 

I think your point about certain people not minding incarceration is both specious and moot. Who cares? Some people like being kicked in the nuts! Really! Should we give them blowjobs as punishment? Punishment is a very religious seeming concept, to me. Let's not be any more religious than we have to be. Let's try to understand people scientifically and compassionately and behave accordingly.

 

 

I just feel that some crimes (not all of them) make the person who committed the crime unworthy of humane treatment.

 

Do you want to be the one who treats those people inhumanely? If not, why not, and who should do it?

[♦ nivek ♦]

Some people deserve killin'.

 

kL

[white_raven23]

I just feel that some crimes (not all of them) make the person who committed the crime unworthy of humane treatment.

 

Do you want to be the one who treats those people inhumanely? If not, why not, and who should do it?

 

I am capable of anything. Including murder and torture. To claim that I could NEVER DO any such thing would be a lie. We are all capable of doing the worst, just as we are capable of doing our best. I'm not going to deny that which in me society would label "dark" as though it is some sort of accident. That a real person couldn't be capable of such inhumanity towards others. Wrong. History itself proves that's not true.

 

I am a whole person. There are parts of me that are highly noble, and there are parts of me capable of being very cruel. Just because I like one aspect of me more than I like the other doesn't mean that less "acceptable" part of me does not exist.

 

Now do I personally "want" to be the absolute power over such a person? No. But that's because my current employment probably pays more.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Jesusfuckmooseballs..

 

"Some Bi-Peds deserve killin', 'cuase it's more humane to put an animal down than cage it for the rest of its miserable life."

 

Personally I am more interested in self preservation and -protection from the Bi-Peds than extracting momentary satisfaction of taking their lives in some form of *revenge*.

 

Why be bait? Why give your goods and life to some asshole who serves himself off the sweat of your body and the breaking of your time?

 

When the criminally intended fucks with you, be prepared to render unto him an open can of asswhipping that will curtain his options, and cause him to go away crying and bleeding out of every new orifice you open up.

 

If he expires from such, too bad he elected to take on a hard target and paid the price. If he survives, I hope his exile from humanity is for life.

 

Should I see such on the street, free to hurt and injure again on my streets, it could very well be time to haul more fuckin' trash.

 

For my IM detractor and attempted foil, I hope that you live a long happy non-violent life with folks you love, and that they never see the evil and harshness that is meat.life.

 

Quick well pointed and aimed violence solves more problems than any amount of bullshit talking ever has. Talk all you want to the cretin who assaults you.

 

For me and mine? We'll shoot for head and center mass, reload, and shoot until problem is resolved.

 

Catch and release is not a viable alternative to *justice*.

 

k, VERY mean_old_man, L

 

:Quick edit, unlike White Raven, I am not noble at all. Not craven, not giving a fuck about many others. Can't fix all the worlds ills. But can influence a small section of those around self and family and the world existing in. In that the differences between Bi-Peds and my Humanity are weighed.:

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

I just feel that some crimes (not all of them) make the person who committed the crime unworthy of humane treatment.

 

Do you want to be the one who treats those people inhumanely? If not, why not, and who should do it?

 

I am capable of anything. Including murder and torture. To claim that I could NEVER DO any such thing would be a lie. We are all capable of doing the worst, just as we are capable of doing our best. I'm not going to deny that which in me society would label "dark" as though it is some sort of accident. That a real person couldn't be capable of such inhumanity towards others. Wrong. History itself proves that's not true.

 

I am a whole person. There are parts of me that are highly noble, and there are parts of me capable of being very cruel. Just because I like one aspect of me more than I like the other doesn't mean that less "acceptable" part of me does not exist.

 

Sure, our darksides exist. But it's my opinion that we should act on the impulses of our "light" sides. Just because someone else indulges pathologically in their darkside, to me, that isn't justification enough to respond by reaching into our darksides for a solution.

 

Now do I personally "want" to be the absolute power over such a person? No. But that's because my current employment probably pays more.

 

Is this more sarcasm or are you saying a pay raise would be all it would take for you to treat a human being inhumanely?

 

 

Jesusfuckmooseballs..

 

"Some Bi-Peds deserve killin', 'cuase it's more humane to put an animal down than cage it for the rest of its miserable life."

 

Personally I am more interested in self preservation and -protection from the Bi-Peds than extracting momentary satisfaction of taking their lives in some form of *revenge*.

 

Why be bait? Why give your goods and life to some asshole who serves himself off the sweat of your body and the breaking of your time?

 

When the criminally intended fucks with you, be prepared to render unto him an open can of asswhipping that will curtain his options, and cause him to go away crying and bleeding out of every new orifice you open up.

 

If he expires from such, too bad he elected to take on a hard target and paid the price. If he survives, I hope his exile from humanity is for life.

 

Should I see such on the street, free to hurt and injure again on my streets, it could very well be time to haul more fuckin' trash.

 

For my IM detractor and attempted foil, I hope that you live a long happy non-violent life with folks you love, and that they never see the evil and harshness that is meat.life.

 

Quick well pointed and aimed violence solves more problems than any amount of bullshit talking ever has. Talk all you want to the cretin who assaults you.

 

For me and mine? We'll shoot for head and center mass, reload, and shoot until problem is resolved.

 

Catch and release is not a viable alternative to *justice*.

 

k, VERY mean_old_man, L

 

:Quick edit, unlike White Raven, I am not noble at all. Not craven, not giving a fuck about many others. Can't fix all the worlds ills. But can influence a small section of those around self and family and the world existing in. In that the differences between Bi-Peds and my Humanity are weighed.:

 

 

I hear ya, Kevin. I didn't expect you to say anything else.

 

I disagree.

[white_raven23]

Now do I personally "want" to be the absolute power over such a person? No. But that's because my current employment probably pays more.

 

Is this more sarcasm or are you saying a pay raise would be all it would take for you to treat a human being inhumanely?

 

You made it sound like a job. I don't think it would really appeal to me personally. Just because I am capable of treating someone like shit, doesn't mean it's something I want or need to do.

 

And I think someone who has raped, tortured, and murdered someone has forfeited their right to be in the Human Being Club and lost all rights to be treated humanely in turn. Maybe that's a flaw, that I don't see such people as human beings anymore, but it's a flaw I can personally live with.

 

They lost their own 'my-growing-up-was-crap-I'm-a-victim-too' card the moment they chose to seriously victimize another human being. Lot's of folks had shit childhoods. And plenty of people have used their upbringing to do something positive instead. So the idea that someone 'had no choice' but to torture and kill a little girl......that is total BS.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

I've discussed this topic enough lately to know that it's useless to keep up this conversation. Both sides feel very strongly about their position and I wouldn't expect anything less. I was just curious what kind of opinions I would get from XCs.

[Asimov]

Not sure about the "strength" of my convictions regarding this. I'm open to changing my mind if someone can offer a rational solution that would show me other than the hippy-mindset of "they just need to be loved".

 

It may be that you personally don't have any interest in punishing those who disobey moral law. Neither do I, but I recognize that if I adhere to a moral standard that I must uphold it or face becoming a hypocrite. Basically, I don't want to punish those who are immoral but I would do it if it were called upon me.

 

What is justice? Justice is the principle of moral rightness. Upholding justice is needed in order to give people equal opportunities and equal rights.

 

Not punishing people for immorality is allowing evil to happen. You let a bully push you around and you give them the idea that what they are doing is ok and at the very least a morally neutral act, if not a good thing altogether.

 

"The only thing that is needed for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing".

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

How is putting someone in jail for the rest of their life not punishment? Sure, some people might like being incarcerated. Fine. They luck out. But they're still in prison far away from us.

 

Totally ignore the moral punishment argument for a moment. Even if you believe that we have a right to kill someone who poses no immediate threat and is incapable of defending themselves how many innocent people are you willing to execute in order to get the bad guys?

[Asimov]

How is putting someone in jail for the rest of their life not punishment? Sure, some people might like being incarcerated. Fine. They luck out. But they're still in prison far away from us.

 

Totally ignore the moral punishment argument for a moment. Even if you believe that we have a right to kill someone who poses no immediate threat and is incapable of defending themselves how many innocent people are you willing to execute in order to get the bad guys?

 

Shiva, I see a distinct lack of reading comprehension. I don't see where I wasn't open to the idea of life incarceration.

 

1. Could you explain what you mean by killing someone who poses no immediate threat and is incapable of defending themselves?

 

2. Could you explain why society should bear the financial burden of taking care of criminals? I'm not talking about "whodunnit?!?" cases where there is a grey area of guilt.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Shiva, I see a distinct lack of reading comprehension. I don't see where I wasn't open to the idea of life incarceration.

 

Now Assy, no need to get snippy. The discussion is about the death penalty and you said...

 

Not punishing people for immorality is allowing evil to happen. You let a bully push you around and you give them the idea that what they are doing is ok and at the very least a morally neutral act, if not a good thing altogether.

 

As if anyone is saying that there shouldn't be clear consequences for criminal behavior. It seemed like you were trying to say that unless we kill criminals we aren't punishing them. I was simply responding that, to me, incarceration is adequate "punishment" and doesn't make us the killers.

 

1. Could you explain what you mean by killing someone who poses no immediate threat and is incapable of defending themselves?

 

A person in an orange jumpsuit and shackles surrounded by steel reinforced concrete and armed guards.

 

2. Could you explain why society should bear the financial burden of taking care of criminals? I'm not talking about "whodunnit?!?" cases where there is a grey area of guilt.

 

Society is partly responsible for the production of criminals. Not all laws are moral absolutes. If my tax dollars can be spent to kill thousands of Iraqis without my consent, then I have no problem with having a miniscule portion of my tax dollars going to an institution that humanely incarcerates tresspassers until they have "paid their debt to society" or whatever you want to say. What's you're alternative, Asimov? Anyone who steals, batters, destroys property, maims, rapes, murders etc. get's a bullet immediately when they are discovered in a room with a corpse or a stolen playstation? Or do we wait a minute and try to determine what happened? That's what the courst are for, but the courts are fallible. They are not Gods. They can be and are wrong, to the tune of 171 inmates freed because of exonerating dna evidence. Not freed by the courts. Freed by the efforts of people outside the court system who gave enough of a damn to not let innocent people die. Our justice system cannot be trusted with someone's life. Any one of us could have been one of those 171.

 

If we are so concerned with "justice" that we are willing to accept our murder of innocents in order to mete it out then how are we any fucking better than the people we are killing? We are letting passion get the better of us and making a decision no person has the right to make.

 

Sure, we all realise that killing absolutely has to happen sometimes. When you have no other option you do what you have to do. But even then, if you aren't a monster, you don't revel in it. You don't take pleasure in it. You do it because you must. A man in a cage, as long as he can be safely kept there, does not NEED to be killed. Killing this man carries with it a heavier burden than killing a man in battle or killing a man who attacks your family. I'm willing to pay a few extra dollars if it means I will never participate in the execution of an innocent person, or, honestly, even of a guilty person. To me, that cost is too high.