Unobservable Dimensions

[Totallyatpeace]

I was reading something this morning about dimensions and I'm curious as to how a more scientific mind would respond to this:

 

"For those who have trouble with the acceptance of an unseen realm, consider the perspective of cutting-edge researchers who embrace string theory. Scientists at Stanford, Princeton and Yale postulate that there are ten unobservable dimensions and likely an infinite number of imperceptible universes. If this is what leading scientist believe, why should anyone feel self-conscious about believing in one unobservable dimension?"

 

Obviously, from a Christian perspective, I could be referring to that other dimension being heaven or hell. But since I know almost nothing about science, my question is really to the scientists out there. Do you believe that there are many other dimensions?

 

 

Tap

[Caretaker]

Ever heard of Flatland?

[Ro-bear]

You know I'm no scientist, TAP.

 

I don't think anyone who believes in other dimensions needs feel at all self-concious. However, those who think they have knowledge of these dimensions...well, I take their claims with a grain of salt.

 

I've been trying to get Merriam-Webster to put my picture next to the entry for "skeptic".

[Merlinfmct87]

One of the best books I've seen on this theory is The Elegant Universe. It was also made into a Nova TV special in three parts. It's been released on DVD... well worth the buy.

 

Also try to get Cosmos by Carl Sagan... very inspiring work. A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking is also a great read.

 

Happy reading!!

 

Merlin

[Totallyatpeace]

Thank you for the suggested books and links.......I find them an interesting suggestion considering the quote in my first post comes from a Christian author.

 

I guess I am a bit confused because a Christian may refer to the suggestion of other multiple dimensions as New-Age "junk". (not my wording--just making my point.)

 

But if scientists believe in other dimensions, then why is heaven or hell so unlikely a possibilty?

[Asimov]

But if scientists believe in other dimensions, then why is heaven or hell so unlikely a possibilty? 

 

Because they were made up, silly

[Caretaker]

Ok, Let this come to mind: We exist in 4 dimensions that I am aware of. Three of such dimensions are physical dimensions. Width, Height, Length. The forth dimension is Time.

 

Now, we can affect an object's location in each of the 3 physical dimensions directly. However, Time is a different story. We are forever moving forward in time. We can't go visit 2001 to see the Mariners make history again.

 

Now, it is possible that there are more than 3 physical dimensions. Think of a plane. It is a subspace within our space that is only 2 dimensions. It can be a universe all to itself. Now consider a parallel plane. It can be another universe to itself, but the inhabitants of each plane can only perceive what it in their own plane of existence. That is, to inhabitants of plane A, that plane, and only that plane is all the universe to them. They can never see plane B because it is parallel; the planes never intersect.

 

Of course, as far as physical space, there is up/down, right/left, and forward/backward. If there is another Universe parallel to our own, we can never find out because up/down, right/left, and forward/backward is all we can do, and up/down, right/left, and forward/backward will not take us out of our universe.

 

I do have a feeling that the laws of physics might be the same, though.

[Fweethawt]

Thank you for the suggested books and links.......I find them an interesting suggestion considering the quote in my first post comes from a Christian author.

That quote doesn't exactly have that Christian™ kick to it.

 

BTW-If you're going to take Merlin's suggestion and read Cosmos, make sure that you also pick up a copy of Demon Haunted World - Science as a Candle in the Dark (that's all one big title) by the same author, Carl Sagan.

 

If you read those two books, I guarantee that you won't view the world, let alone your theology, the same way again.

 

I guess I am a bit confused because a Christian may refer to the suggestion of other multiple dimensions as New-Age "junk". (not my wording--just making my point.)

I can see where some of the confustion comes from... Doesn't Christian™ theology teach that Heaven and Hell are real physical places that exist in the here and now, on this "plane" of reality? (I.e. Heaven is in the sky, Hell is in the Earth.)

 

But if scientists believe in other dimensions, then why is heaven or hell so unlikely a possibilty? 

Because scientists usually like to follow the facts to where they lead instead of starting with a conclusion and adjusting the facts to fit into a pre-specified outcome.

[dustmouse]

I think dimensions besides length/width/depth/time are certainly possible, if not even plausible. Who knows what really exists beyond black holes, for instance? Does time bend and slow into infinity near them like some physicists postulate? Unless we learn to travel at warp speed or find ourselves suddenly in a wormhole or other spacial anomaly (if you'll forgive the Star Trek puns) I find it unlikely that we will ever know for certain. But possible? Certainly, yes.

[Totallyatpeace]

I think dimensions besides length/width/depth/time are certainly possible, if not even plausible.  Who knows what really exists beyond black holes, for instance? Does time bend and slow into infinity near them like some physicists postulate?  Unless we learn to travel at warp speed or find ourselves suddenly in a wormhole or other spacial anomaly (if you'll forgive the Star Trek puns) I find it unlikely that we will ever know for certain.  But possible? Certainly, yes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks, dustmouse....

 

That's what I was after......a non-religious view as to whether other dimensions exist. For a Christian it is easy to justify our belief in other dimensions. I needed to hear the other side of it.

 

Fwee~

I can see where some of the confustion comes from... Doesn't Christian™ theology teach that Heaven and Hell are real physical places that exist in the here and now, on this "plane" of reality? (I.e. Heaven is in the sky, Hell is in the Earth.)

 

Not sure of that, to be honest. I do believe they are places that presently exist. Where they are located.....I have no idea. I suppose that's where the unobservable dimensions come in.

[Caretaker]

Ponder this: If we really exist in a subspace of 4 or more physical dimensions, would we not be under gravitational influence of masses outside our 3-space?

[Matthew]

I was reading something this morning about dimensions and I'm curious as to how a more scientific mind would respond to this:

 

"For those who have trouble with the acceptance of an unseen realm, consider the perspective of cutting-edge researchers who embrace string theory. Scientists at Stanford, Princeton and Yale postulate that there are ten unobservable dimensions and likely an infinite number of imperceptible universes. If this is what leading scientist believe, why should anyone feel self-conscious about believing in one unobservable dimension?"

 

Obviously, from a Christian perspective, I could be referring to that other dimension being heaven or hell. But since I know almost nothing about science, my question is really to the scientists out there. Do you believe that there are many other dimensions?

Tap

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

TAP,

 

Many scientists who work in the field of string theory believe that there are anywhere from ten to twenty-six dimensions of space. String theorists such as Edward Witten, John Shwartz, Michio Kaku, David Gross, and others are convinced that having several dimensions of space helps to unify quantum mechanics with Einstein's theories of relativity. String theory seems to postulate that what we think of as fundamental particles of nature are not 0-dimensional point particles but 1-dimensional filaments of energy. However, these strings are said to vibrate in many other dimensions of space.

 

I don't think any Christians should take the perspective that heaven or hell might exist in these other dimensions. It's precisely because these dimensions are small and exist on the Planck length and are "curled up" small that heaven and hell should not be thought to exist in them. These are physical dimensions of spacetime. Heaven and hell are not suppose to be physical places with actual geographical existence anywhere in our known physical universe. Rather, these extra dimensions are compacted.

 

Do these extra dimensions exist? The mathematics of string theory seem to say yes but, then again, they just keep the equations consistent and allow for beautiful mathematical symmetries to exist. We have never stumbled upon experimental evidence for the existence of these "other dimensions".

 

Matthew

[Lokmer]

Multiplicity of dimensions are implied by the current understanding of relativity. The understanding of relativity - and awareness of its limitations - are currently undergoing an amazing amount of transformations, and this rate of change in the field is unlikely to slow down anything soon. The paradigm shift critical mass outlined by Kuhn in "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" seems set to play itself out. Hawking, Kaku, and the like, are fun to watch. But at the moment, we're all waiting on experimentst to verify and refute the competing theories. Enjoy their work - it's thought provoking and elegant and beautiful - but, particularly in extreme areas of speculation, keep your skeptic's cap on. Sagan's advice in "Demon Haunted World" is just as valuable dealing with speculative cosmologists as it is when dealing with a pagan shaman.

 

As far as understanding the concept of dimension, the best place to start is Edwin Abbott's "Flatland", which **should** be in the public domain by now and might even be on the wiki page linked to above. It's a didactic novel (a literary style from the late 19th century where a story is used to communicate difficult concepts).

 

Enjoy the exploration - it's a truly fascinating field!

-Lokmer

[spamandham]

Do you believe that there are many other dimensions?

 

I assume you are referring to spacetime dimensions? Has it not already been proven by David Deutsch's laser slit experiment as well as by quantum entanglement?

 

Difficult to observe dimension(s) seem to be the simplest explanation for those.

[MrSpooky]

One should not mistake "dimension" for "alternate universe."

 

This isn't Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, kids.

[Merlinfmct87]

Thank you for the suggested books and links.......I find them an interesting suggestion considering the quote in my first post comes from a Christian author.

 

Hey, we're here to help... Besides. When it comes to science(just like computers), I'm a slut... I'll talk to anybody that'll listen.

 

I guess I am a bit confused because a Christian may refer to the suggestion of other multiple dimensions as New-Age "junk". (not my wording--just making my point.)

 

No need to apologize for bashing new age thinking--you should have seen me rip apart "What the bleep do we know?" in the critics forum. The Clue-By-Four was replaced with a Buzz Saw...

 

In any case,(this shouldn't be news, buut...) you really don't have to worry what a Christian would think around us.

 

But if scientists believe in other dimensions, then why is heaven or hell so unlikely a possibilty? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, this doesn't trandslate to quite where you want to take it. Yes, there are extra dimensions. No, they aren't whole new realities to explore, this doesn't prove Mirror, Mirror any more than it proves the Bible. Add to that the fact that nothing resembling a "soul" has been scientifically observed, nor any place for this "soul" to go to after death, and you can understand people's skeptisism. Then we get into "faith healing" and such and science goes out the window--along with the positive results.

 

If you are looking for proof of Heaven... string theory isn't the place to look.

 

If you want to explore a mindblowing field of science and expand your horizons..

 

Go to the library and jump down the rabbit hole. I did a long time ago... never regretted it one iota.

 

Also, let me put my strongest recommendation possible on "Demon-Haunted World - Science as a Candle in the Dark" by Carl Sagan... I read that a few months ago and it blew my mind to mars, not to mention completely ruining X-Files for me(Damn you, Lokmer!!). It is essentially a bullshit shield. The proper term is "Baloney Detection Kit" but that falls murderously short of it's true potential.

 

Anyhow... let me know how it goes!

 

Merlin

[Lokmer]

read that a few months ago and it blew my mind to mars, not to mention completely ruining X-Files for me(Damn you, Lokmer!!)

 

 

::Lokmer tips his hat::

Glad I could help

-Lokmer

[Fweethawt]

I read that a few months ago and it blew my mind to mars, not to mention completely ruining X-Files for me(Damn you, Lokmer!!).

 

Look on the bright side, Merlin.

 

 

 

 

At least you know Gillian Anderson is real.

 

 

[Merlinfmct87]

read that a few months ago and it blew my mind to mars, not to mention completely ruining X-Files for me(Damn you, Lokmer!!)

::Lokmer tips his hat::

Glad I could help

-Lokmer

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm going to get you for this... I'll make really stupid snake jokes... or something...

 

 

Look on the bright side, Merlin. 

At least you know Gillian Anderson is real. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So true.

 

Merlin

[Kryten]

Last I heard the number of dimensions that made the different quantum theories align perfectly together was eleven. And membranes have replaced strings (thus M-theory). But I'm not a quantum mechanic myself-- I have to rely on others to fix any quantum things that break...

I've read a few Stephen Hawking books, one by Kip Thorne, and the latest I've read on the subject was by Michio Kaku. Kaku is the easiest to read and perhaps the most interesting, but when he wrote it he understood the number of dimensions to most likely be ten. Since then he was on a program on Discovery Science about the latest advances in that field, where the number is now eleven. This also leads to some interesting Multiverse theories.

I have that show on (a homemade) DVD if anyone is interested.

 

When I was a Xian I thought that might have made perfect sense that God was an eleven-D entity while we were stuck in only three, but now I just don't know what to think about that. I am certainly open to learning the truth, whatever it may be.

[Kryten]

Actually, Kaku's latest book, Parallel Worlds: A Journey Through Creation, Higher Dimensions, and the Future of the Cosmos, should be fascinating and up-to-date. I'm going to order it.

[pandora]

Ok, Let this come to mind: We exist in 4 dimensions that I am aware of. Three of such dimensions are physical dimensions. Width, Height, Length. The forth dimension is Time.

 

Now, we can affect an object's location in each of the 3 physical dimensions directly. However, Time is a different story. We are forever moving forward in time. We can't go visit 2001 to see the Mariners make history again.

 

Now, it is possible that there are more than 3 physical dimensions. Think of a plane. It is a subspace within our space that is only 2 dimensions. It can be a universe all to itself. Now consider a parallel plane. It can be another universe to itself, but the inhabitants of each plane can only perceive what it in their own plane of existence. That is, to inhabitants of plane A, that plane, and only that plane is all the universe to them. They can never see plane B because it is parallel; the planes never intersect.

 

Of course, as far as physical space, there is up/down, right/left, and forward/backward. If there is another Universe parallel to our own, we can never find out because up/down, right/left, and forward/backward is all we can do, and up/down, right/left, and forward/backward will not take us out of our universe.

 

I do have a feeling that the laws of physics might be the same, though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Every time I see your avatar I have childhood memory flashbacks of nightmares where Khan puts worms in my ears.

 

I am a huge Star Trek fan, BTW...

[Caretaker]

Every time I see your avatar I have childhood memory flashbacks of nightmares where Khan puts worms in my ears.

 

I am a huge Star Trek fan, BTW...

LOL

 

 

I am quite the madman!

[RankStranger]

There are dimensions and then there are dimensions. I just got done with a big nasty calculus III class, so I've been dealing with plenty of mathematical dimensions. Length, width, and height are obvious. So is time. But mathematicaly speaking, a dimension is an arbitrary choice- it can be anything. I could choose IQ score, and say that the IQ score of a given individual is a logistic exponential growth function increasing with their distance from East Tennessee. That would be a second dimension, with the first dimension being distance. You could create a model where a dollar amound is assigned to any point withing three dimensional space, so that dollars are a function of X, Y, and Z coordinates. I can't visualize five dimensions, but you could make temperature a function of X, Y, Z, and $ coordinates.

 

I mean... dimensions aren't neccesarily X-files material.

 

So what exactly do we mean by dimensions here, and how exactly does that relate to heaven and hell? Are we talking about something like a fifth dimension related to space/time? (I think that's already been addressed) Or some other sort of 'dimension'?

[Caretaker]

Yeah, I guess we are discussing physical dimensions, I think.