True Follower's Of Christ

[Open_Minded]

Like many on this board, I have questioned Amy Marie about her statement:

 

I been a true follower of Jesus since I was fourten years old. That was back in 1971.

...

 

In that vein... I would like Amy to answer my original question to her. Amy, what do you mean when you say "true follower of Jesus"?

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=179810

 

And ... like many other questions directed at her ... Amy chose to ignore this particular question.

 

Also, over these past several months I've watched as many come onto this board and claim for themselves the title, "True Christian".

 

Now I consider myself Christian and this title has alway befuddled me, what exactly is a "True Christian"? And why won't any of the "True Christians" on this board define the term? So, out of curiosity I did a little search on google and found the following website. http://www.truechristian.org/

 

Amy... once again... what do you mean when you say "true follower of Jesus"? Are you a "True Christian" as defined at Truechristian.org? http://www.truechristian.org/are_you_a_t_c/index.html

 

Please respond this time? Like everyone else here, I'm tired of being ignored..... Thank you

[scotter]

Amy,

 

I should not assume you have the assumption that members in Ex-C.net were once Christians, now they are Christian-turned-atheists. Indeed there are theists, God believers in amongst the Ex-C members – I for one.

 

I believe God, and I believe in God. And I can privately share with you my relationship with God. You have this intimate experience with Jesus and wish to share with us, wish that we would “come back” to Jesus….

 

For my case, it is not about “coming back” to Jesus, it is about “Why should I believe Jesus?” Convince me, evangelize to me – I am inviting you to this formal academic and theological discussion. (If I do see you reply, my further reply would be probably tomorrow night.)

 

I want to ask you this question since I have been reading your discussion with Ex-C members, but did not wish my question get lost in the “Why the gripe…?” thread. Open Minded thread’s is just a right place. Nevertheless, I don’t intend to witness my experience to you to tell you that “Amy why do you need Jesus? You don’t need Jesus.” One thing I believe is intimacy with God is not an exclusive Christian monopoly.

 

Alternatively, you can approach this question as “intimacy with God is an exclusive Christian monopoly” and lay out your arguments.

 

.

[Abiyoyo]

Like many on this board, I have questioned Amy Marie about her statement:

 

I been a true follower of Jesus since I was fourten years old. That was back in 1971.

...

 

In that vein... I would like Amy to answer my original question to her. Amy, what do you mean when you say "true follower of Jesus"?

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=179810

 

And ... like many other questions directed at her ... Amy chose to ignore this particular question.

 

Also, over these past several months I've watched as many come onto this board and claim for themselves the title, "True Christian".

 

Now I consider myself Christian and this title has alway befuddled me, what exactly is a "True Christian"? And why won't any of the "True Christians" on this board define the term? So, out of curiosity I did a little search on google and found the following website. http://www.truechristian.org/

 

Amy... once again... what do you mean when you say "true follower of Jesus"? Are you a "True Christian" as defined at Truechristian.org? http://www.truechristian.org/are_you_a_t_c/index.html

 

Please respond this time? Like everyone else here, I'm tired of being ignored..... Thank you

 

 

Off the topic a little. I will give you my "true follower of christ" definition.

 

I believe a 100% true Christian, is someone who would do what Jesus Christ said to do. "You must pick up your cross and follow Me". In that, the church has taylored that into their cozy little doctrines and comforts; in reality it says much more.

 

Christ knew( according to scripture) that He was to die, in crucifixation. So, when He says to pick up your cross and follow Him; I believe He meant that True Christians should do the will of God, no matter what the expense.

 

The problem is that now days there is this thick cloud of the world we live in that deludes and makes God into a fluffy little Bible cover that we buy at the Christian store.

 

If someone is a true follower of Christ, they would sell everything they have, take a plane to location10.40 on th globe and start witnessing, where they are being shot at and killed.

 

I say that if one truly follows the footsteps of Christ, they would have the Holy Spirit as mentioned in the Bible and preach to all the ends of the world as He commissioned, until death.

[Fweethawt]

If a person claims to be a True Follower of Christ™ without being able to do the things that the bible says that they should be able to do, does that make them a liar?

-from The Pocket Bible available somewhere on this site-

 

A true Christian should be baptized, have faith, cast out demons, speak in tongues, take up serpents, be able to heal the sick, and be completely immune to any poison. Mark 16:16-18

 

A true Christian can perform greater miracles than Jesus. John 14:12

 

Christians can move mountains and trees by command. Matthew 17:20, 21:21 Mark 11:23 Luke 17:6

Whatever a believer asks for he will receive. Matthew 7:7

 

Well?

 

Does it?

 

 

(btw, as far as that Amy character goes -- I think she/he/it's a hoaxster anyway.)

[Fweethawt]

Awww! C'mon now!!!!

 

Nobody wants to answer my simple questions concerning christianity and what it means to be a True Follower™ ?

 

It's right there in black and white, and it has nothing at all to do with some sort of fluffy personal relationship with a bloody dude hanging on a cross.

 

C'mon, give it a shot, believers. What ever happened with the good'ol "Be ye prapared to give an answer...." line from the good book? Or did you throw that verse out too, in favor of more of your made-up dooblecocky?

[Knightley]

Fabulous.

 

Jesus was the slot machine that failed me.

[Fweethawt]

Seriously. Why do you think I'm a hoaxter?

Just the way that you reply to people. And the particular images that you use to try to get your point across.

 

Like the one in your signature, for instance. I clicked on the properties of that image, and it's called, "christrescuesthesoulbetter.jpg". Now, to me, it doesn't seem like if someone were serious about their little faith game, that they would title that picture that way.

 

I've been on this forum for a few years now. I've seen hundreds, probably thousands of christians stroll through here. Some were sincere. Some were complete loons. Some came by just to aggrivate everyone. But you -- with you, there's just something phoney about you in the way that you write. Something that just doesn't seem "sincere". Like you're faking it, you know -- faking it. Like you know that it's all make-believe, but you're faking it. I just can't put it any other way.

 

Sort of like, how you answered my post up there. Sure, we get plenty of christians coming through here that completely ignore what the text plainly states. But when you do it, it seems like you're doing it on purpose. Like you're just playing around or something.

 

 

That's why I think you're a hoaxster. You seem phoney to me.

[Open_Minded]

First things first, I am going to make a very strong request to all participants that we not let this thread go down hill as fast as the "Gripe against Jesus" thread degraded. If you want to get into a tit-for-tat debate about Bible verses please BYOB and go back to the "Gripe" thread, it seems better suited for endless quibbling.

 

YoYo and Amy Marie, thank you for responding to my query. Now that the discussion has begun I'd like to explain why this question is so important to me.

 

It is my firm belief that the way we think about ourselves, about ourselves in relationship to the Sacred ONEness (that Christians call God) and the way we think about this Sacredness impacts our concrete world. Our thoughts in these areas impact:

• The way we think about and treat ourselves
  
• The way we think about and treat other human beings
  
• The way we think about and treat the earth.... etc...
  

One does not need to look very far to see the results of "TRUE" anything dogma. The planes flown into the World Trade Center are a perfect example of "TRUE" dogmatic thinking. The men who drove those planes into the World Trade Centers considered themselves TRUE followers of Allah.

 

So... this whole TRUE Christian thing bothers me on a very deep level.

 

YoYo and Amy Marie, I have one more question for you before I answer your posts above.

 

If someone is not a TRUE follower of Christ, a TRUE Christian .... does that person go to hell?

[Checkmate]

...............

YoYo and Amy Marie, I have one more question for you before I answer your posts above.

 

If someone is not a TRUE follower of Christ, a TRUE Christian .... does that person go to hell?

May I play through?

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'

23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Sounds like "false Christians" go to hell right along with the rest of us "wicked sinners". Sucks, don't it? Imagine, spending a LIFETIME doing what you believe is your "Christian best" only to have Jesus spit in your eye and chunk you into hell right along with Muslims, atheists and Kirk Cameron.

[Amanda]

Awww! C'mon now!!!!

 

Nobody wants to answer my simple questions concerning christianity and what it means to be a True Follower ?

 

It's right there in black and white, and it has nothing at all to do with some sort of fluffy personal relationship with a bloody dude hanging on a cross.

 

C'mon, give it a shot, believers. What ever happened with the good'ol "Be ye prapared to give an answer...." line from the good book? Or did you throw that verse out too, in favor of more of your made-up dooblecocky?

 

 

OK Fwee... I am reluctant to do this... as I probably do not like fundamentalism any more than you... and in no way want to validate any such crazy thinking. *sigh* However, there are some people that do NOT look at these teachings in a fundy way. Some, like me, look at it more in alignment to the Buddhist teachings. It is written in allegory and metaphors.

 

Not that I think you genuinely care... I know better... however, I will give my interpretation to your challenge. I'll bite.

 

Mark

16:16

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

16:17

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

16:18

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

Once one believes, out of well thought reason and is permanently changed, will be saved from torment of the natural repercussions, which comes when one acts out of lack of good judgment.

 

And the people that believe these teachings of Jesus will show signs of casting out confusion, and will speak with a new insight that will separate them from others.

 

They will take up issues/events that have the venomous confusion aspect. However, even if they accept this venomous aspect that takes away the vital life force that promotes the will to thrive, they will have principles to immediately guide them out of these ways of error. They will be able to interact with others to lead them out of dysfunctional thinking also, to restore their health back too

 

John 14:12

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

 

Because Jesus has only pierced into these new principles that consistently go to positive internal changes, those who under stand these concepts with the desire that Jesus had, will go beyond what he has done.

 

Matthew 7:6

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

7:7

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

7:8

For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

 

Anything you ask for in the search for the higher ground, you will get it. Don’t ask for things to give appeasement to those that ask for superficial rewards, nor give away precious aspects of yourself to be given to those with no consideration of its value.

 

Ask for the answer that will really help you without compromising your inner strength, your well based values, and principles. Search for it in your heart and mind, and it will be eventually revealed to you.

 

And the verses where they say we can move mountains and such... that only means the greatest of obstacles/problems in our life, can be overcome. Maybe not in the way we initially think we want the results to be, however... we can still find victory in our hearts and mind.

 

[Antlerman]

Now I consider myself Christian and this title has alway befuddled me, what exactly is a "True Christian"? And why won't any of the "True Christians" on this board define the term? So, out of curiosity I did a little search on google and found the following website. http://www.truechristian.org/

I am a True Atheist, as opposed the quasi, fake, or impure atheists, those who mixed with the Pagan Atheists of Rome! I follow the original teachings of the Great Teacher of No-Godism. Other "so called". “Atheists”, do not adhere to the True Doctrines of the Faith of No-Godism. As it says in 1st Godless 1:1, “Come out from among those who falsely call themselves Atheist, and serve No-God with all your heart, mind, mind, and strength; for great shall be your reward in the non-afterlife!” To be a True Atheist, you must follow the true teachings of the Great Atheist. Praise his name!

 

For 36 easy weekly payments of only $49.99, I will personally mail you on VHS tape my 6 part lecture series on “Reclaiming the True Teachings of the Religions of Atheism; Science; Mathematics; Horticulture; and Pet Hygiene.”

[Taphophilia]

Amy Marie,

 

I have been reading through this thread and I would like to say that I understand how Christians who come to this site read what is said are offended. If I had read some of the things said here when I was a Christian, I would have been outraged.

 

For many of us here, we were very sincere Christians in our walk. Many of us had a personal relationship with Jesus and believed with all of our hearts. We were just as sincere as you are and I recognise myself in you when I was a Christian.

 

I want to make this clear. We didn't just wake up one day and decide to reject our faith, mock Jesus, and turn away from a way of life. It was a long and painful process of soul searching and looking for answers to questions and doubts that plauge every Christian. We pulled our fingers out of our ears and listened and asked sincere questions. After much thought and consideration of all we learned, we came to the conclusion that no matter how much we wished Christianity to be true, no matter how much we wanted Christianity to be true, it just wasn't possible.

 

It seems to me after reading through this thread. You wish to convince us of something we had already once been convinced and found to be untrue. You do not wish to understand us, but rather for us to understand you, when, in fact, we understand you and others like you all too well, because we've been there.

 

You keep talking about this personal experience you've had. I hate to tell you this, you don't hold the exclusiveness on personal experiences. I had them myself when I became and was a Christian.

 

When I was a Christian I brought many people to a saving knowledge of Christ. This will be very difficult for you to hear, but the people that I brought to Christ were emotionally insecure people who needed to feel something bigger than themselves loved them unconditionally. People who are emotionally secure in the first place, do not need Jesus to make them feel accepted and secure about who they are. This is what deconverting from Christianity has done for me. It has forced me to examine why I needed Christ in the first place and fix the areas in myself that were lacking. I am a much more secure person now that I am no longer a Christian than I ever was when I was one.

 

Taph

[Ouroboros]

First things first, I am going to make a very strong request to all participants that we not let this thread go down hill as fast as the "Gripe against Jesus" thread degraded. If you want to get into a tit-for-tat debate about Bible verses please BYOB and go back to the "Gripe" thread, it seems better suited for endless quibbling.

Then I'll move this to the Colosseum instead.

[Antlerman]

Here's what I meant by the statement "True Follower of Christ." I grew up in the Church. I had a lot of "head knowledge" about Jesus, learned about Him, went throught all the rituals but I never experienced Him in a personal way until I was in my early teens. Up until then I was really going through the motions because I was made to go to Church, the Bible was a dead boring book, Christ didn't mean anything to me. I was just a "normal" teenager.

 

So because of my experience all that changed. Jesus is more than "head knowledge" to me now. I try to follow His teachings. I have successes and failures, times of doubts and uncertainty. So did the apostles. But I think that's what true Christianity is all about. Of course it takes a life time of "knowing" Him because there is so much I don't know.

 

 

Sorry for my little humor blurb above. I just couldn't resist after reading the crap on the link OM provided.

 

Amy, I said early on in the other thread that I take what you mean by "true follower" to say you are sincere. I still see that from what you just said above. A bit of advice that may be helpful, the term "true follower", "true (whatever)", has really bad history. If I were you, I would start saying "I am a sincere Christian". That sounds a hell of a lot better, and says something about you personally, rather that as a "group" of something.

 

Like I said before, the words sincere and insincere are very meaningful. I call Christians who come in here condemning everyone because they don't believe the way that do as insincere through their arrogance. Sincerity usually shows itself in humility. I have no reason to see you as insincere. Your faith is a sincere one to you.

[Open_Minded]

YoYo and Amy Marie, I have one more question for you before I answer your posts above.

 

If someone is not a TRUE follower of Christ, a TRUE Christian .... does that person go to hell?

 

I'm waiting for an answer to my question, Amy?

[Open_Minded]

YoYo and Amy Marie, I have one more question for you before I answer your posts above.

 

If someone is not a TRUE follower of Christ, a TRUE Christian .... does that person go to hell?

 

I'm waiting for an answer to my question, Amy?

 

And still ... I wait ....

 

(Checking watch.... noticing Amy answer other posts .... drumbing fingers on table .... yawning .... checking watch ... waiting, waiting and waiting some more) (Deep long sigh)

[Japedo]

The picture of Pee Wee? Sometimes I need to lighten things up a bit, I'm not kidding. I really do appreciate your honesty. You don't know me personally so how can I prove to you that I AM sincere?

 

My signature picture is my own art work. I've been illustrating pictures of Jesus ever since I became a Christian. Some of it is based on the Song of Solomon. Even some conservative Christians critisize my art because it's not like the art you'll find at your local Christian bookstore.

Here my website www.therosevine.com

 

Boy! Thirty some odd years is a long time to be faking it.

 

Can you tell me what those Christians did made you feel they were sincere?

 

 

 

I went to your website you posted here in your quote. I'd like to say that although I don't agree with your religious philosophy Amy, I will say that you're an extremely gifted and amazing artist.

[Antlerman]

My signature picture is my own art work. I've been illustrating pictures of Jesus ever since I became a Christian. Some of it is based on the Song of Solomon. Even some conservative Christians critisize my art because it's not like the art you'll find at your local Christian bookstore.

Here my website www.therosevine.com

I was actually planning to ask if that was your own art work. It's very expressive and inspired. I checked out the other works, and the same is true. I recognize the heart behind art when I see it/hear it. If anyone doubts your words, it's hard to fake sincerity in art. Insincerity shows instantly as a lifeless husk of commercial crap. Just turn on the radio station to any pop station and hear the clones being called "artists"! Most are not. Your work is honest and I appreciate that.

[Antlerman]

Briefly on the question of salvation and damnation: I hope to direct your thoughts here for a moment. First, setting aside what you "understand" theologically or doctrinally, what does your heart tell you? I want to provoke your thoughts on the doctrines here by mentioning that all the things you listed are logical constructions arrived at through reasonings. There are lots, and lots of different ways people read and undertand these things logically. I would only advise you to be open to the possiblity that this "thinking" is not absolute. Start with your heart.

[Open_Minded]

But here's something interesting. In John 5 Jesus says, "All judgement has been given to me because I am the SON OF MAN. Jesus didn't say, "because I am the King of Kings, the Lord" etc.

He is the Son of Man. I believe that when the judgement day does come that all will view the life, death and the resurrection of Jesus. They will see the punishment He suffered for us. They will witness that He walked in our shoes, experienced what we experienced throughout the thirty three years of His life. Because He is the Son of Man no one will be able to point at Him and say, "but you don't undertsand. You didn't live in my shoes."

 

We will also be face to face with Him. When Isaiah, John, Moses saw the glory of God they fell down as dead men. Do you know what it's like to be in the presence of absolute power, perfection, goodness, holiness and so forth? This too will convict us. As Isaiah said, "Woe is me! I am a man of unclean lips."

 

He will judge the nations with JUSTICE. There are many who haven't even heard of Jesus. people who were born into different cultures, different religions, people who have been abused, some who have been given a terribly distorted image of Christ because of "things" done in His name. All these different things will be judged by the Son of Man. I also believe that Christ follows a soul to the gates of hell offering them a chance to choice Heaven. And who knows what happens at the moment of death? Maybe Jesus even appears to the person.

 

But in the end, I am sure that when He judges all will say His judgement is fair and just. People will bow the knee because of awe and respect. When they see His beauty, and purity, the Light of His face some are made to walk away from that and never to see it again, that will be hell.

 

Amy, you do sound sincere. Thank you for your honesty.

 

This is very important. You came to this board asking what the Gripe was with Jesus, why did people leave Christianity. I could speak for hours on end as to why my parents left Christianity. I could talk to you at great length as to why I did NOT call myself Christian for many years. And you know what - most of it would boil down to this one topic. The topic of "TRUE" Christians and what happens to people who are NOT TRUE Christian, whether they be of another faith tradition, agnostic, atheist or heretical Christian such as myself. The willingness of so many people wearing the Christian label to blanketly assume only they are "SAVED" and the rest of humanity will fry in hell for eternity is beyond the pale, it's insulting and it is not the least in line with a compassionate, loving, wise God.

 

So...before I can get into any kind of a conversation with a Christian about spirituality ... this issue needs to be settled. Thank you for responding to my first question with sincerety. I look forward to any other thoughts you have on this issue of "TRUE" Christians, and "Hell" and "Salvation".

 

Am I to understand (from your response above) that you feel people who are not Christian can go to heaven?

[Japedo]

Justice demands punishment. If you break the law there must be punishment.

 

Not necessarily Amy. Number one the Punishment must fit the crime in order for it to be Justice. Number two, Punishments aren't always required that's why you believe in forgiveness is it not? To use an example Hans once gave although I'm not quoting him. If someone steals bread because their family is starving should their hand be cut off? What is the greater evil.. the family Starving or the bread being taken?

 

Lastly, If a god creates us to question and demands that we not follow false gods, how can one prove that unless they search for answers and doubt what we've been told is the truth? Weigh evidence and so forth... Is that a crime worth an eternity of burring?

 

We see hell as unfair and unloving of God but we are not inside His thinking because our thinking is limitted. We don't understand why He would hate sin so much to punish it in such a way because we are not absolutely perfect.

 

I thought he hated sin so much and loved his creation so much he gave his only son to get rid of sin? If it's still around then the sacrifice didn't do diddly and it was pointless for Christ to die to begin with.

 

 

 

 

[Open_Minded]

Oh! Well my heart tells me that Jesus is so kind and compassionate that He'll just break down, take off His crown, step off the judgement seat and say, "Awwww shucks. Forget about it. Come on in!" And then give everyone a big hug. I wouldn't want to see anyone go to Hell.

 

 

Amen, Amen, Amen ..... Praise be, Praise be......

 

THANK YOU AMY Now, I can relax, now I can talk to you on a whole different level. Thank you for your honesty, for the joy within your honesty... I'm with you "Aww shucks. Forget about it. Come on in!".... what a wonderful sentiment.

 

Now that that's been cleared up .... I do want to say that you and I see things from a different theological perspective, but when push comes to shove we land in the same place. So, we have a meeting place for discussion, and that's what's important.

 

Again, thank you, truly thank you.

 

Do you have any questions for me, now that I've run you through the wringer?

[KT45]

Oh! Well my heart tells me that Jesus is so kind and compassionate that He'll just break down, take off His crown, step off the judgement seat and say, "Awwww shucks. Forget about it. Come on in!" And then give everyone a big hug. I wouldn't want to see anyone go to Hell.

 

You seem like you follow the universalist christian belief (all will be saved). Are you a universalist christian?

[Open_Minded]

Cool! I'm glad we made that connection.

I am too, Amy. You broke the ice with a lot of folks around here with that last response. As you can see Taylor is wondering if you consider yourself a universalist Christian? I am as well - actually I'm wondering if you've ever heard of "universalist" Christians?

 

Here's a question. Where did you get that cute Jesus emoticon?

As you are in the "Reply" area ... on the left hand side you'll see a whole slew of emoticons. At the bottom of these emoticons there is a link that says, Show All. Click that link and you'll get even more emoticons.

 

I'll be thinking of some fascinating questions.

I look forward to your questions.

[Amanda]

But in the end, I am sure that when He judges all will say His judgement is fair and just. People will bow the knee because of awe and respect. When they see His beauty, and purity, the Light of His face some are made to walk away from that and never to see it again, that will be hell.

Amy Marie, have you ever considered that heaven and hell may be just states of mind?

 

Open Minded, do you believe heaven and hell are states of mind, or what?