Are Any of You Parents of Young Children?

[Guest SerenityNow]

Hi, I've been a non-Christian now for only a couple of months but the journey started over a year ago. Probably like some here I was introduced and inducted at a young age (0) to be technical then I strayed back and forth for 30 years and got serious about my Christian walk. First I noticed christians being no different than the evil secular people, except they were believers. Tongues was used big time in my church but clearly went against the teachings of Paul. Then I started to see that the Old Laws were never abolished and started down the path of Messianic Judaism but then the trinity issue was debunked. From there, the path to freedom and utter shock kicked in.

 

To make a long story short for five years I was the spiritual one in my family and bible thumped my poor husband and children to death. My kids are only 7 and 10, we were doing Sabbath, food laws, the works. I engrained and was angered when any one questioned "why" , we took away Christmas, Easter, everything. They are both wonderful children but now, I no longer believe. Are any of you in this situation and what have you done? My heart breaks looking at them, I was a hardcore believer, now thats gone. We still have some Christian friends but I don't want the kids growing up thinking they have to fake.

 

Any advice that anyone could offer would be greatly appreciated. They only know that I believe in a creator but that I don't believe he has revealed him/herself to any set of people. When I read the horrifying accounts in the Old Testament I was sickened by the treatment of others doled out by the supposed creator and Israelites. I have a 7 year old daughter and the thought of what happened to those little girls makes me sick, even if the Bible god does exist he is not worthy of worship. They would have murdered my son and husband too.

 

Please no one get after me for the confusion I've brought on my kids, I feel badly enough as it is. My husband is still a believer but he never studied, never got involved with church, etc.

 

Thanks

Sandy

[Dio]

Hi Sandy. Welcome to Ex-C.net. I have three young children ages 3,5,7. To complicate matters, I'm recently divorced and recently an ex-christian, and my ex is a fundamentalist along the lines of how you described your former self. Like you, I don't want to confuse my children or give them mixed messages, so I am in a dilemma as well. For now, I just haven't addressed the issue at all. In the future, I basically see three options:

 

1. promote sending them to the fundy church my ex still attends,

2. find a more benign spiritual environment like a universalist/universist church or whatever, or providing more of a cultural experience like I had, growing up as a nominal Catholic, or

3. turn them towards an atheistic humanistic worldview.

 

Numbers 1 and 2 violate my principles, while number 3 is potentially damaging to them and the relationship between myself and my ex (which I am trying to cultivate in order to cooperatively raise our children). I have no answer for this to suggest to you, but just know you're not alone and I certainly would entertain further dialog about this issue. I think I will ultimately use a gradual approach, exposing them to different spiritual and cultural ideas and environments as they grow older. And as they mature, I can be more direct in expressing my own views. I want to be subtle without being dishonest. It's a tough situation.

[Ouroboros]

thankful,

 

Thanks for the very touching testimony.

 

I came from a christian home too, got "born again" at age of 7, and was christian for 30 years. For the 10 last years I was a hard core, fundamentalist christian. But 2 years ago I denounced my faith, and now I'm agnostic/atheist.

 

I have 5 kids, from age 9 to 17, and they know now that I'm not christian anymore, but they still want to believe something. So I have taken a sort of deistic approach not to make the change too drastic.

 

It's tough in the beginning, when you first break loose, to learn how to handle things. There's also a lot of emotions and thoughts that will come during the first year, but it's a "re-programming" phase that most ex-Ch's go through. We have to sort out all the old, conflicting ideas.

 

Please no one get after me for the confusion I've brought on my kids, I feel badly enough as it is. My husband is still a believer but he never studied, never got involved with church, etc.

 

No one here would ever "get after you".

We've all done our share of stupid things that we regret.

I sure have a truckload of them.

 

The best you can do is to take one day at a time, and handle each situation as it comes. We will be here, at this site, and support you when things get tough.

 

At some point you have to explain to your kids what you believe, but I see it the same way as Santa Claus etc, we can let the kids have a belief when their younger, but when they grow older we try to explain things to them in the best way possible.

 

For instance I had a talk with my 9 yr old a while ago, and she wondered if there was any God, and I just couldn't say "heck no, where all gonna die". That was a bit to harsh in my oppinion, so I said that we don't know, but I'm sure that if there is a God we are all going back to him the day we die. I think that is the only real crucial question for a kid, is what happens after death, and I don't think I have to show down my belief, but just present her to the options, and let her work on them herself. Eventually, when she gets older, I can get into more specifics if I want too.

 

Another example is my oldest son. He knows what I think, and he's kind of in the same thoughs, but he's "seeking", finding his own "faith". So he went to church with some christian friends for a while. Even played in their worship team. And I asked him "are you going religious on me?", and he said that he wasn't, that he's been thinking about it, but not really making up his mind. He's a great kid, with good morals, even though he's not religious.

 

Just a few of my friends know I'm agnostic, with the rest, the question never comes up. Not that I'm avoiding it, but it's just nothing we talk about.

 

I hope all the best for you, and see you around on the site.

[LloydDobler]

My daughter turns 3 next month, so I'm not in the same boat as you, but I'm definitely going to have to deal with stuff like this soon.

 

Her mom takes her to church every sunday where they teach her to sing jesus loves me and open my eyes lord and all that...

 

I'm just going to live my life, and let her observe it, and come to her own conclusion about whether or not god exists. If she asks questions I'm going to tell her what I think. I don't see why kids need religion any more than we do. I knew from day one that santa was just a fairytale and that the presents really came from mom and dad.

 

I mean I may not be the most experienced person when it comes to counseling 9 and 10 year olds. What are you guys afraid of? That they'll get really depressed at the prospect of no afterlife? Why not just tell 'em it's a big mystery and they'll find out when they get there? Nobody can possibly know, and anything they believe is just something they made up anyway.

 

I dunno, maybe I'll learn in a few years that there are some truths that are too harsh for kids to handle.

[pandora]

Hi Sandy.  Welcome to Ex-C.net.  I have three young children ages 3,5,7.  To complicate matters, I'm recently divorced and recently an ex-christian, and my ex is a fundamentalist along the lines of how you described your former self.  Like you, I don't want to confuse my children or give them mixed messages, so I am in a dilemma as well.  For now, I just haven't addressed the issue at all.  In the future, I basically see three options:

 

1. promote sending them to the fundy church my ex still attends,

2. find a more benign spiritual environment like a universalist/universist church or whatever, or providing more of a cultural experience like I had, growing up as a nominal Catholic, or

3. turn them towards an atheistic humanistic worldview.

 

Numbers 1 and 2 violate my principles, while number 3 is potentially damaging to them and the relationship between myself and my ex (which I am trying to cultivate in order to cooperatively raise our children). I have no answer for this to suggest to you, but just know you're not alone and I certainly would entertain further dialog about this issue.  I think I will ultimately use a gradual approach, exposing them to different spiritual and cultural ideas and environments as they grow older.  And as they mature, I can be more direct in expressing my own views.  I want to be subtle without being dishonest.  It's a tough situation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Why does option 2 go against your principles?

 

If I ever have children, I think that is the option I would choose. It makes them less susceptible to their Christian friends.

[Amethyst]

If I ever have children, I think that is the option I would choose. It makes them less susceptible to their Christian friends.

 

I would only do that if I was under a ton of pressure to take them to a church. Depends on who I marry, but I couldn't marry a really religious person. IIRC, there are agnostic churches as well. I've never been to one, so I can't tell you what happens there.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Sandy,

 

My son, elBeasto, is soon to be 13. Honor Roll student in 6th grade, well versed in a ton of things most kids may not get to do until a lot older..

 

I teach Beastie at home to fill gaps in his PubLIKK SKULLE eduMusHKAYshUn..

He goes back to School with a mind full of ideas and knowledge that aren't on their agendas.

I go to the Office a LOT, and on occasion have had to bring my Attorney..

 

Many of these adventures I've written up here, and in process learned a lot about the *system* and how to monkey wrench same...

 

Beastie has been raised religiously neutral. My women are of the Olde Religion in practice, I am a *don't give a shit today, tomorrow, forever* sort..

 

A problem is now as Beasto gets older he is somwhat mystified why the fundies at school are trying so hard to recruit him into their particular religious structures..

He has a delightful time researching the problems presented and going back and fucking with the fundie kids minds..

(Dunno where he learned that!)

 

The holidays the girls have explained to him, what they mean to others than xtians, and why celebration of same is more tradition that conviction..

 

It may be a good way to explain to kids that tradition isn't a bad thing, and make your holidays more secular, less religious, and in the years to come work the heavy hand of the religiousness out..

 

You've got hellova'n opportunity to un-program the kids.. Just like any other line of thought, be careful, and let kids learn at their pace.

 

Doing well by taking the phoney BS of religiousness ut of their heads and allowing them to grow up as Freethinkers...

 

Freethinking is also a grain planted.. Do so, let your kids grow..

 

n, Proud Dad and raiser of nextGen Freeman

[Dio]

Why does option 2 go against your principles?

 

If I ever have children, I think that is the option I would choose. It makes them less susceptible to their Christian friends.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I may yet decide to go that route, but it goes against my principles because I haven't chosen that for myself, so why would I choose that for my children? That's all. I have nothing particular against those organizations, but I prefer to 'walk the walk'. I wouldn't involve them in something I wouldn't be involved in, and I have to this point chosen not to be involved.

[imageownershipproblem]

Thirteen and sixteen are hardly young, but mine are still children. The kid is a lifelong atheist and the college student would call herself Agnostic. I was the bible-thumper and thought I'd completely ruined my relationships with both of them, but I underestimated children.

 

I've apologized to them just as you would apologize to an adult.

 

The college student would actually like to visit me this summer, but I'm not ready for that yet.

 

The kid hears me crying and comes into my room asking what's wrong and makes funny faces and tells me I'm the best Mom in the world. It's not easy right now, but I kind of almost believe him because they've both turned out so great in spite of me.

 

Please don't be so hard on yourself, Sandy. Life is confusing. It's important that your little ones know that everybody makes mistakes and that life does go on when you recognize them and do your best to avoid making the same ones in the future.

 

When the fruit of my loom were three years and six months old, a mother I looked up to said something that has stuck with me through the years:

 

"I am determined not to make the same mistakes with my kids that my parents made with me. I'm going to make different mistakes."

[thomas]

..., kids are able to handle a lot more than what we think that they're capable of.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Very true.

 

We have three children age 7, 11 and 15. When we stopped attending Church on a regular basis, we told them that we wanted to have more time together as a family. And they are all three very happy about that decision.

 

I have even told our daughter (the oldest child) a little bit about different versions of Christianity, and the uncertain foundation for much of the Christian beliefs, and she seems to understand it very well.

 

My wife has also left the "bible believing" kind of Christinity, but she is basically still a Christian. She is very interested in music, and has started to sing in a choir every second sunday in a high church setting. She is very happy about that, and do not miss the former kind of Church. And she has arranged for our daughter to sing in a similar kind of choir for young people. So they only go to church when the have to sing.

 

Our two boys (7 and 11) are just happy, that they do not have to go to Church.

[Alice]

My children are 18,17,14 and 11. The eldest two stopped attending church themselves when they got to their teens. My eldest has turned out to be one of my greatest supports in terms of the process I've been going through - he is on his own questioning journey for some kind of spirituality, sometimes I think I might meet him coming in on my way out!

 

I have found that the thing my kids have respected the most is my honesty. Its Ok to say - I've changed my mind about this or that - I think that's a good thing to teach kids!

 

It has been weirder for my youngest two - because they grew up into our most ardent charismatic fundamentalist phase. They both have a belief in God - both choose to get baptised. (I guess in some ways they didn't really have much of a choice - pretty hard to be the last one in the youth group holding out) but at the moment their decision and their beliefs still seem real to them. I would hate to now impose disbelief on them.

[spamandham]

Mine are 3, 9, and almost 13. The oldest is the only one who has a clue what religion is.

 

My wife was never very religious until I started having doubts. Now that I've embraced the title 'atheist', religion has become much more important to her, and it's really causing us problems. Not so much from my perspective, as from hers. She wants me to be the spiritual leader of the family even though she knows I'm now an atheist! The weird thing is that neither of us cared much about religion at the time we got married.

 

Needless to say that doesn't go over well. I don't know how/if it will work itself out.

 

The weird thing is, I've told her an infinite number of times that I won't get in her way of indoctrinating the kids, and I mean it. At the same time though, I'm not willing to live a lie anymore. I go to church on occasion when she feels really needy, but she knows I'm just doing it to appease her.

 

There are times when I want to walk her through why the very concept of faith is equivalent to willful stupidity, and to try to deconvert her, but she isn't emotionally strong enough to give up that crutch. I know she has serious doubts that she isn't willing to face, and she believes children will all commit suicide if they don't believe in god.

 

Ugh.

[Alice]

Mine are 3, 9, and almost 13.  The oldest is the only one who has a clue what religion is. 

 

My wife was never very religious until I started having doubts.  Now that I've embraced the title 'atheist', religion has become much more important to her, and it's really causing us problems.  Not so much from my perspective, as from hers.  She wants me to be the spiritual leader of the family even though she knows I'm now an atheist!  The weird thing is that neither of us cared much about religion at the time we got married.

 

Needless to say that doesn't go over well.  I don't know how/if it will work itself out.

 

The weird thing is, I've told her an infinite number of times that I won't get in her way of indoctrinating the kids, and I mean it.  At the same time though, I'm not willing to live a lie anymore.  I go to church on occasion when she feels really needy, but she knows I'm just doing it to appease her.

 

There are times when I want to walk her through why the very concept of faith is equivalent to willful stupidity, and to try to deconvert her, but she isn't emotionally strong enough to give up that crutch.  I know she has serious doubts that she isn't willing to face, and she believes children will all commit suicide if they don't believe in god.

 

Ugh.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

believing that her children will commit suicide if they don't believe in God must be a terrifying place to be. I used to worry that my kids would get into all kinds of bad stuff if they dropped out of church and that was worrying enough. Interestingly - I was helped out of this fear whilst I was still in the church - and was encouraged by some other christians (who I still greatly admire) to 'let go and let god'. Some people might hate that as another christian cliche - but I found it really helpful - no longer feeling like you have to ensure everybody else's out comes is a great burden to have lifted!

 

I would say - there are control issues in your relationship (I've been there!) and sounds like she is trying to force you to control her (my hubby once said to me - in the midst of a big row ...'your submissiveness is oppressive to me!')

 

Whilst you say that neither of you gave much thought to god when you married - it sounds as though her perception of you - was that you believed. Maybe some of her belief was reliant on yours, sounds like her belief has been shaken by you voicing your doubts. Nothing makes us hold tighter than the ground under our feet going all wobbly (I went through my most religious phase when my Mother (a vicar's wife and life long believer) started to express doubt. The shift in teh staus quo of my life really scared me!

 

How ever much you say you don't want to stand in her way of indoctrinating the children - your unbelief will stand in the way. Maybe tell her that you don't want to stand in her way of teaching the kids about her belief and taking them to church or whatever - but acknowledge that your unbelief will expose the children to another perspective and make 'indoctrination' less likely.

 

Does she think she is 'indoctrinating' them? I think maybe the row you are having is not about the 'freedom' to indoctrinate (which because of your open disbeleif you simply cannot give her - how ever much you say you want to) but about whether or not the kids are being 'indoctrinated'.

 

Me - if I was in your situation I think I would try and move the row away from the religion - and here (at last) I butt out apologising for my tendency to get too intrusive.

[spamandham]

Hesitent, I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. I would like to move the row, as you phrased it, but I'm in a relationship of 5, not just one (or two).

 

I'd rather sit and deal with this issue once a week for 15 more years than have my kids grow up without me.

 

I like the cliche 'let go and let god'. I might try that.

[Alice]

Hesitent, I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head.  I would like to move the row, as you phrased it, but I'm in a relationship of 5, not just one (or two).

 

I'd rather sit and deal with this issue once a week for 15 more years than have my kids grow up without me.

 

I like the cliche 'let go and let god'.  I might try that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

When I mentioned moving the row - I meant to suggest that you try and separate the row from your religious differences (not that you separate from your family).

 

I think it sounds like you are having a row in which religion is a tool you both use to hit each other with - rather than religion necessarily being the cause of the row.

 

my two pennyworth again - I'd look for all the common ground between you and your wife you can find - and spend as much time there as possible - rather than reluctantly crossing the battle lines once a week in an attempt to keep the peace.

 

I know you've only shared a couple of lines - but reading between them, sounds like you both worry sometimes about your kids futures (hey - don't all parents!) you are clearly very committed to your kids. This is such solid common ground to stand on.

 

If you and your wife can resolve the row (the one I suggested might be control - and control usually manifests itself as a result of insecurity) you'll then be better placed to discuss your religious differences without these becoming a channel for the unresolved row.

 

I'm probably not explaining myself too well - but I went through this phase of trying to force my hubby, my kids and my Mother to adopt, stick with and get back to a particular set of beliefs - evangelical christianty provides what seems like a great sense of security for a marriage, all those rules about roles - and obligations - and rewards for sticking with it and punishments for giving up.

 

There was unrest in my marriage - and a 'police state' seemed for a while to be the only way I could feel secure.

 

I used to use all kinds of emotional pressure to try and get my hubby to conform to the church's view of marriage with a male 'head of the house' - and for him to attend church ... so that somehow God would make him stay with me.

 

I didn't know this consciously for a while - but I was so frightened he would leave me. I'd persaude him to come to church (for my sake) and then I'd feel worse - because I began to realise that my attempts to control him and make him do things for me were actually driving him further away. I couldn't discuss anything about religion - because when he expressed a difference in opinion my insecurity about the future of our relationship resurfaced and took over!

 

We have for the most part resolved those insecurities - we can have passionate (but respectful!) debates about religion and philosophy now and they are not scarey. I know I intend never to make him do something he doesn't want to do again and that's such a relief.

[Ouroboros]

Hesitent, I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head.  I would like to move the row, as you phrased it, but I'm in a relationship of 5, not just one (or two).

 

As long as you don't hit your head with the nail

[Amethyst]

I know she has serious doubts that she isn't willing to face, and she believes children will all commit suicide if they don't believe in god.

 

Argh! Suicide is caused by depression, which is treatable with medication. Tell her that. It is such a stereotype. My Christian cousin committed suicide when he was a kid. See, religion doesn't make a difference if people don't get help and everyone missed the signs and assumes that just because they're Christian, they won't do it.

 

Sorry, but my life has been affected not once, but three times by friends/relatives who committed suicide and it drives me up the wall when people use stereotypes like that.

[Guest Gypsy]

thankful, you mentioned your husband was still a believer but not into studying and being involved with the church. maybe your situation won't be so hard over time with the kids. what does he feel about your beliefs now? does he still follow and push on the kids the rules you don't agree with anymore?

 

i used to be so intently christian. and my 5 kids now are between ages 7 and 17. sometimes the older ones will bring up some event that happened way back because i had some rule or belief. depending on the situation they bring up, i sometimes apologize, and i try to explain why i made that decision, what my beliefs were at the time, how i changed, and why i don't believe that way now. we usually end up laughing. some of the stuff is so ridiculous. people change. that's just the nature of things. and kids learn that parents don't just know everything the minute they become parents, they keep learning and changing too. i think if you stay open with them about the past be gentle to yourself about this then they will be able to understand and be gentle on themselves when they need to be.

 

my h is still very fundy and the kids are torn between beliefs. i tell them whatever they choose is fine with me. they can certainly explore and learn and it is a big world out there. and my h tells them that they will go to hell if they believe what i believe. because for fundies you are either saved or not saved and of course h feels responsible for the kids salvation. he used to think god will make an exception for me but i'm not so sure he thinks that anymore. sometimes the tension is pretty bad.

[been borg again]

why worry about the kids? when they hit late teens/ early 20's they start to naturally requestion everything they were taught. Its natural, I think as long as the non christian parent has a postive relationship with their own child, that is the time to talk about deep philosophical stuff. Doesnt matter one bit what they were taught before.

As long as your honest with kids and your life is consistent ( not hypocritical) then you can have a positive influence on developing philosphical ideas. Teens are very receptive to honesty and forgivness, and can spot a hypocritical parent a mile away.