Here Is Why I Don't Believe

[freeday]

 

If hitler hadn't been stopped, god's will would have been done, because that's what Hitler was doing. He w3as doing god's will. His "experiences" with jesus are no less valid than yours.

 

i think you might be a little confused about hitler.

 

Hitler believed that the human gene pool could be improved by using selective breeding similar to how farmers breed superior cattle strains. In the formulation of their racial policies, Hitler’s government relied heavily upon Darwinism, especially the elaborations by Spencer and Haeckel. As a result, a central policy of Hitler’s administration was the development and implementation of policies designed to protect the ‘superior race’. This required at the very least preventing the ‘inferior races’ from mixing with those judged superior, in order to reduce contamination of the latter’s gene pool. The ‘superior race’ belief was based on the theory of group inequality within each species, a major presumption and requirement of Darwin’s original ‘survival of the fittest’ theory. This philosophy culminated in the ‘final solution’, the extermination of approximately six million Jews and four million other people who belonged to what German scientists judged as ‘inferior races’

[nick5]

.

[freeday]

Your god is unthinkably cruel, Freeday. Infinite torment for finite sins is nothing short of unthinkably cruel. I could never worship such a callous, sadistic bastard as that god you worship. Never.

 

I know I'd be doomed anyway. So why bother worshiping such a vile deity? I'll be tormented forever and ever anyway. Besides, depending on your denomination's theology, even if you do act the way he wants to and kiss his ass all the time, there's still a good chance you'd get snuffed.

 

I think I'll just live my life out in atheist fun.

 

-Seth

 

 

i am sorry you feel this way, Jesus stated "love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind....Love your neighbor as yourself." he stated these to be his greatest commandments. if you live your life by these words (which are not burdensome) there is no chance you will get snuffed.

[nick5]

.

[freeday]

However, without fail almost all christians automaticly jump to one of two conclusions about my unbelief. Either I actually know its true, but pretend its not in order that I may "get away" with sining....or I was hurt by some christian and left the church because of that.

 

The point of this post is that neither of those are true.

 

this is something i would like to probe. if you had to sum it up in two sentences, what would be your reason for not believing. every person has there own reason, mostly of what i hear (people i personally know) is they are mad at God for ussally an event in there life, ussually one that was prayed upon heavily.

 

Hitler was a christian. He was doing the will of god, he said so himself.

Now let's see, about hitler's beliefs, who's word should I trust? What Hitler said about his own beliefs, or what you're saying about them?

Choices...

 

it is obvious we differ on this subject, who knows, maybe because i went to a christian school, they perverted history.

 

There is no way any sane person could love such an evil, cruel, unjust and bloodthirsty god. That's like asking me to love hitler. No thanks, I'd rather go to hell than offer my support to such an asshole.

 

and that is your right as an american citizen to have that beleif. and there is obviously nothing i can do to sway you from it. but i have yet to read about the blood thirsty God you describe. you have your interpritation, and i have mine.

[nick5]

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[Misterspock1]

Great story! I posted this on my blog (which is read by many Christians from my college). We'll see what kind of responses it generates. I will post some of them here.

[Gnosis of Disbelief]

I read about the story of Shamash and the story of Samson...neither are similar.

 

 

Well, I probably should have said Shamash and several other solar hero

deities of the era. Shamash was probably the initial basis of the Samson

myth, as Samson has a very similar name, and as Shamash and Samson

are both associated with righteousness and justice. (Shamash was the

Assyrian/Babylonian deity associated with righteousness, justice, and law;

Samson was a Nazarite, whose religious vows supposedly made him

super-holy [although Samson isn't portrayed as living up to his vows in the

biblical story].) However, after accreting bits and pieces of other solar

hero deity myths from neighboring peoples, the Samson myth doesn't

closely resemble any of the Shamash myths that have survived to our

day and age.

 

However, the Samson myth does share many of the same motifs that

you do see with sun god-type heros of the time, like Herakles/Hercules

and the Tyrian god Melqart: superhuman strength, which is sometimes

associated with the length of the hero's hair (often viewed symbolically

as the rays of the sun); a set of trials or difficult tasks that often includes

the killing of a lion; a love interest that leads to the hero's death; an

association with pillars and gates; etc. There are too many parallels to

suggest anything other than a pagan source for the story, sanitized by

the Old Testament's editors in a way that turned this god-hero into a

biblical prophet.

 

 

 

Great story! I posted this on my blog (which is read by many Christians from my college). We'll see what kind of responses it generates. I will post some of them here.

 

 

You'll probably get the sorts of responses you've seen here. ("Waaaaaah! Their

gods did it, too!")

[Kuroikaze]

Do you think the enemies of Israel were peace loving gentle and kind folk? In ancient times only the strong survived and wars were constantly fought over lands and territory. Don't you remember the Pharoh drowned thousands of Jewish babies in the Nile? What about Samson who had his eyes burned out of his sockets?

 

Did you know that some pagan gods, Molec and Baal to name a few, demanded children to be sacrificed in the fire? Human sacrifices was a common among some ancient pagan cultures. Unlike the One God Yahweh who limited sacrifices to animals as a type of Christ the Lamb of God.

 

There was also temple prositution, great sexual misconduct, including beastiality.

 

Remember the story of Jonah? God threatened judgement. The people repented and the city was spared.

 

Some of these ancient cities had such evil practices in them that God wanted them out of the way and the opposing warriors were not about to yeild to Joshua. Don't think the enemies of Israel were any less ruthless, killing men, women and children.

 

 

Again I ask if any of this justifiies the actions of the God in the bible. Genocide is either right or wrong, you have to pick one. If its wrong then your god is just as guilty as their gods. I'm comfortable with this postion, as I worship none of those other gods either.

 

The question here is not were these other Gods good...no one follows those other bronze age deities any more. The one still worshiped is Yahwey. If he is no better than any other blood thirsty bronze age deity then do tell why I should worship him.

 

The other cities had "evil" pratices? How do you know this? The bible says so? Of course it does, the group that commited Genocide is ALWAYS going to claim that the other people "had it comming"

 

The point here is that "evil" pratices were defined as whatever god didn't like. Are you really saying that an entire group of people were so evil and debased that they all...even down to little children, needed to be killed?

 

Do you know, Amy, that there is a group around today in our country that says very similar things....they are called the KKK. The argument you are giving could very easily be used to justify racism. I know that wasn't your intent, but its there non the less....something for you to think about.

 

 

 

this is something i would like to probe. if you had to sum it up in two sentences, what would be your reason for not believing. every person has there own reason, mostly of what i hear (people i personally know) is they are mad at God for ussally an event in there life, ussually one that was prayed upon heavily.

 

 

 

 

....read the story, it explains exatly why I don't believe...what else do you want? Two sentences? The world is not that simple to expect me to break down my entire being into two sentences is non reasonable.

 

The story is there to illustrate that the god of the bible is either insane or non-existant...my bet is on non-existant.

[Kuroikaze]

it is obvious we differ on this subject, who knows, maybe because i went to a christian school, they perverted history.

 

 

 

I know you mean this to be sarcastic...but high school history books in both christian and in public schools ARE usually total perversions of history. The amount of stuff they leave out of text books is staggering.

 

College history classes were a very eye opening experience for me, because I found out that there was another side to virtually every story I had been told in history classes. high school history in this country, as well as most other countries as well are just a form of cultural indoctrination that teach us a version of history that show our country and our beliefs in the most postive light posible.

 

Why would this even supprise us?

 

Even without hitler there are still many many examples of atrocities being commited by the church througout history. The salem witch trials, the crusades, the spanish inquistion.

 

And Hitler bassed his hatred of the Jews off of Martin Luther's writings just as much as Darwin or Nitchzhe's. Martin Luther, hated the Jews long before Darwin was even born.

 

One thing my story illustrates is that the bible, far from encoraging people to not commit attrocoties like these, actually tends to encorage it.

 

Great story! I posted this on my blog (which is read by many Christians from my college). We'll see what kind of responses it generates. I will post some of them here.

 

 

Thanks for posting it up there, and I'm glad you liked it. One cavet though, if you don't mind listing me as the author I would be very much obligied. You can just list my screen name.

[Asimov]

Thanks for posting the picture from The Passion of the Christ as your signature picture. What a graphic portrayal of His love for you and all of mankind. I look forward to seeing the picture when ever I come to XC.

 

That's because you're a sick fuck and enjoy seeing someone suffer.

[Anakin]

Wow. Gone a few days and boom!

 

ouch, that is an analogy reffering to the holy spirit.

Oh no! The infamous unpardonable sin! I've blasphemed the holy spirit!

Whatever shall I do?!

 

So, now that I'm not worth anything, is it OK to murder me and my family? And yes, my death is not sufficient. You must butcher my whole family. Got to purge that evil from among you,

naturally.

 

But hey, make sure you do it right. Leave me alive to watch you slaughter my children one by one.

Start with my 4 year old daughter. Your gawd wants the slaughter of my beautiful blue eyed

blond haired sweetheart. Like some twisted aerobics instructor who yells at you to "feel the burn",

your gawd wants you to "purge the evil" from the land. It's OK, after all she is the spawn of an

evil blasphemer. You gawd is not concerned that she is the sweetest little girl to grace and uplift

many lives. Evil pagans must be eliminated. But don't worry! I also have an 11 year old daughter

that you can take as spoils. Make Moses proud! I have a minor son too. You know, should your

clergy be more interested in those spoils.

 

But I promise you, in the midst of this holy rancor, I will remain as defiant as before.

I shall never bow to any being who would order genocide. Any being (either human or

gawd) who would order it's followers to look at a lovely child and stick a sword in it's

gut, is a piece of shit! Worthy of nothing but disdain. Any human who would just brush

off the murder of innocent children as just a "judgement", is truly sick indeed.

[Seth C Triggs]

Balance is a funny term.

 

Amy Marie, on the balance, your god is one sadistic puppy!

 

I'm pretty sure even the BTK serial murderer did some nice things from time to time, like help an old lady across the street.

 

"Yeah I slaughtered all these people, but think of the times I *didn't* slaughter people!"

 

Yeah, that'd get some people off death row, right?

 

-Seth

[Anakin]

And the pagans didn't murder anyone without hesitation?

Your point is?

Once again your view of the Bible is not balanced and lopsided. You totally ignore hundreds of Scripture where God held back His hand from judgement, where He saved little children from dying. The widow's son whom Elijah was sent to heal. Jairus' daughter, The widow's son and Nain, the Canannite women's daughter, etc. "He took the children up in His arms and blessed them."

 

Balance.

And your view isn't lopsided? Are you a new ager? You seem very concerned with balance?

So what is balance to you? A few "saves" balances out the total slaughter of entire nations?

So healing a child or raising one from the dead (which sickness and death are preventable

ailments for an all powerfull god) "balances" out things like 2 Kings 2:23,24 where gawd

sends bears to kill 42 children who make fun of a man's bald head? I don't ignore "good"

parts of the bible. In my opinion, the bad outweighs the "good".

 

When you say "where god held back his hand from judgement" I feel like you're approving

of god sanctioned genocide and basicly saying "it could have been worse".

 

So, I must ask. Is gawd sanctioned genocide OK? Yes or no. If so, then what criteria would

make you believe the genocide is actually sanctioned by gawd?

[Asimov]

No. I don't enjoy seeing Him suffer. It's some people on this forum that seem to enjoy adding to His suffering by mocking Him.

 

When I see this picture I am reminded of what Jesus did for me. I can never be grateful enough.

 

You look forward to seeing a picture of someone suffering. That is the same damn thing. Take your hands out of your pants when you come onto this forum and see Jesus suffering, please. It's bad enough that your a complete moron.

[SkepticOfBible]

Did you know that some pagan gods, Molec and Baal to name a few, demanded children to be sacrificed in the fire? Human sacrifices was a common among some ancient pagan cultures.

Unless off course if you make a promise to Yahweh to sacrifice the first living thing you see, and if it happens to be human, then you must.

 

Judges 11:30-39

30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

 

32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.

 

34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break."

 

36 "My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry."

 

38 "You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

 

That was interesting wasn't it? so God's absolute moral about not sacrificing humans take a back seat if you have to fulfill a promise to God.( Deut 12:31, 2 Kings 16:3;Ex 34:15, Lev 20:2, Deut 18:12, Jer 7:31 Lev 21:11)

 

Unlike the One God Yahweh who limited sacrifices to animals as a type of Christ the Lamb of God.

 

So you are saying your God is not into Human Sacrifices and now you are saying Jesus, the man was a valid sacrfice? So now is Jesus a animal?

 

Please tell me how how did Jesus fulfill the Lev 4 as requirement of valid sin sacrifice

 

Designing A Human Sacrifice Called "Jesus"

 

Another problem found with Christian claims concerning the sacrifice of Jesus involves the nature of a sin sacrifice.

There are different sin atonement rituals for various types of sin and Jesus fulfills none of them.

Did the sacrifice of Jesus comply with God's holy law regarding a sin sacrifice where an animal is killed?

Jesus stated that he came to fulfill, or make full the law of God(Matt 5:17-20).

If this is true, then the sacrifice of Jesus must conform with the law of God, which he was living under as a Jew.

 

According to the law of God(Lev 4), a valid sin sacrifice contains the following elements.

 

* The animal must be a designated animal type, approved of for sacrifice by Yahweh.

* The animal must be physically unblemished.

* The sacrifice must be ritualized by a Levitical priest.

* The sacrifice is to die of blood loss.

* The sacrifice occurs at the officially designated place, the Tent of Meeting/Temple.

* The blood is poured out/sprinkled on the altar.

 

The human sacrifice of Jesus did not comply with any of these regulations and Jesus scores a perfect 0 out of 6 concerning these listed requirements.

 

Particularly noteworthy is that Jesus was allegedly scourged and beaten(Matt 27:26-30).

Being physically injured is reason alone for disqualification as a sacrifice in the sin atonement ritual.

Lev 22:20,24

But whatsoever hath a blemish, that shall ye not offer: for it shall not be acceptable for you.

Ye shall not offer unto the LORD that which is bruised, or crushed, or broken, or cut; neither shall ye make any offering thereof in your land.

 

No Levitical priest would have considered Jesus a valid sacrifice after he had be scourged and beaten.

[Mythra]

No. I don't enjoy seeing Him suffer. It's some people on this forum that seem to enjoy adding to His suffering by mocking Him.

 

Umm. For one thing, Amy. That's not Jesus. That's Jim Caveizel. An actor.

 

But don't let it keep you up at night, anyway.

 

Our mocking doesn't bother Jesus in the least. Or Horus. Or Mithras. Or Dionysus. Or Hercules.

Or, well.. you get the idea.

[freeday]

this is in reference of Skepticofbible:

 

testament and covenant both translate the same greek word (diatheke), in the title of the christian scriptures the meaning covenant seems definitely preferable beecause the book constitutes a pact, alliance, or covenant between God and his people. it is called the new testament (covenant) to contrast it with the old covenant.

 

The Christ of Prophecy in the Old Testament becomes the Christ of histroy in the gospels.

 

nick5: you mock Jesus as if he has never been mocked.

 

mat 27:27-31 the soldiers stripped him, dressed him is scarlet, set a crown of thorns on his head, put a staff in his right hand, knelt and mocked him. "hail, king of the jews!" and then spit on him.

 

jesus bore it all patiently, he didn't say a word "for consider Him who indured such hostility from sinners against himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls" heb 12:3

[nick5]

.

[Vigile]

He could blow us away with a breath, but Jesus' blood pleads for us.

 

Mercy!

 

Take off your stained glass goggles. If he is so powerful why did he come up with such a crude system of bloodlust to ease his own anger in the first place. Put this into perspective. If I had a son and he didn't clean his room after I warned him, I demand that he go out and kill a cat in order to appease my anger. What kind of father am I?

 

Mercy!

[Kuroikaze]

 

 

And the pagans didn't murder anyone without hesitation?

 

Once again your view of the Bible is not balanced and lopsided. You totally ignore hundreds of Scripture where God held back His hand from judgement, where He saved little children from dying. The widow's son whom Elijah was sent to heal. Jairus' daughter, The widow's son and Nain, the Canannite women's daughter, etc. "He took the children up in His arms and blessed them."

 

Balance.

 

 

Amy I have told you several times why this is not a valid argument for anything. Just answer one simple question for me. IS GENOCIDE MORAL OR IMORAL? Can you answer that question?

 

This is, after all, my thread, answering everyone else and ignoring me is a bit rude.

[Kuroikaze]

 

His mercy? Unbalanced. His mercies far outweigh His judgements. Here's the proof. He is having mercy on us, on you right now ~ mortals shaking out fists in the face of God Almighty.

 

What are we but dust. "All we are is dust in the wind." He could blow us away with a breath, but Jesus' blood pleads for us.

 

Mercy!

 

 

lol, or it could just be prood he doesn't exist, OR that God is a big boy and doesn't get offended when people doubt his existance, because he has more importiant things to do.

 

This whole line of logic reminds me of a 'the tick' cartoon I watched when I was a kid.

 

The Tick is telling all his super hero friends about how he saved the whole universe from distruction, and at the end they say. "how do we know all that really happend, maybe you just made that whole story up. How do we know you really saved the universe?"

 

The Tick says, "well hey, we're all still here aren't we?"

 

To which they reply, "oh, yeah, well thanks alot man."

 

If you can't see why this line of logic is absurd, then I'm sorry.

 

 

 

 

Now kindly stop using the cruelity of other cultures to justify your own God's cruelty. Considering that your claiming these other deities are false gods at best and evil demons masqurading as god at worse. using their actions as justification of Yahwey's actions makes absolutly 0 sense. Is any of this getting through Amy.

 

I considererd all of this when I was a christian and it didn't make sense then either.

 

As I have said before, I started this thread to explain why I don't, and why I could never, believe again. If you wish to believe it matters not to me. But if you are trying to claim that my own personal reasoning is faulty your going to have to do better than this.

 

 

 

mat 27:27-31 the soldiers stripped him, dressed him is scarlet, set a crown of thorns on his head, put a staff in his right hand, knelt and mocked him. "hail, king of the jews!" and then spit on him.

 

jesus bore it all patiently, he didn't say a word "for consider Him who indured such hostility from sinners against himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls" heb 12:3

 

emotional clap trap. Jesus was not the only person to ever be beaten or crucified. So even if he did suffer you haven't proved that it was nessary to appease some old sadistic Jewish blood sacrifice law.

 

And unless you can explain how substitutionary grace even makes a little bit of sense all your doing is blowing smoke.

[Lycorth]

this is in reference of Skepticofbible:

 

testament and covenant both translate the same greek word (diatheke), in the title of the christian scriptures the meaning covenant seems definitely preferable beecause the book constitutes a pact, alliance, or covenant between God and his people. it is called the new testament (covenant) to contrast it with the old covenant.

 

The Christ of Prophecy in the Old Testament becomes the Christ of histroy in the gospels.

 

Freaky Freeday, you're not making any sense. There is no possible rebuttal to Skeptic's post, because is presents a perfect, airtight case as to why Jeezus™ cannot have been a proper sacrifice according to Old Testament criteria.

 

You can try to dance around it all you like, but the plain and simple facts are that the New Testament flies in absolute contradiction to the Old, and your Jeezus™ couldn't have been the Messiah™ spoken of in the Torah™.

[freeday]

 

 

Freaky Freeday,

 

 

after the night i had i needed a good laugh, thank you. i am sorry if you think i am dancing the subject. there is a long description i would like to discuss with you concerning how Jesus changed how we worship him. i appologize for giving such a quick answer. i was trying to answer the impossible question that i was called out on. i have seriously got to go. will be on later to discuss this with you, because it is important. the analogy is best described by the curtain tearing when He dies. later.

 

i think i will add freaky freeday to my sig.

[Lycorth]

i think i will add freaky freeday to my sig.

 

No problem - considering the god you worship and want us to believe in, it's fitting

 

I don't blame you for avoiding anything. You're being asked to justify one of the sickest religions that man ever made. You're being asked to justify contradictions that cannot be explained away and prove the very existence of a god who can make himself easily known but chooses not to.

 

It's like being asked to walk on air using only your own two feet. Can't blame you for not wanting to hash all this crap out