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Kuroikaze

Here Is Why I Don't Believe

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Your god is unthinkably cruel, Freeday. Infinite torment for finite sins is nothing short of unthinkably cruel. I could never worship such a callous, sadistic bastard as that god you worship. Never.

 

I know I'd be doomed anyway. So why bother worshiping such a vile deity? I'll be tormented forever and ever anyway. Besides, depending on your denomination's theology, even if you do act the way he wants to and kiss his ass all the time, there's still a good chance you'd get snuffed.

 

I think I'll just live my life out in atheist fun.

 

-Seth

 

 

i am sorry you feel this way, Jesus stated "love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind....Love your neighbor as yourself." he stated these to be his greatest commandments. if you live your life by these words (which are not burdensome) there is no chance you will get snuffed.

 

Hi Freeday, welcome to our board.

 

I don't understand this statement and it's one of the reasons I left christianity. It got really confusing to me after a while to hear "love the Lord and you can't go wrong" but if I didn't do something in the Bible, I was going to go to hell. What if I truely love and accept Jesus, I live a good life being kind to others, but I live in a homosexual relationship? Or I enjoy porn or the occassional smoke of weed? Or I refuse to marry and prefer sex outside of a marriage bed? Or I refuse to be the submissive to any man (I'm female).

 

Also, the "Love God and be kind to people" is an edict in just about every religion. Why then, is Christianity the only path to heaven if most religions do the same thing God asks for?

 

Thank you for your time, I realize you've got a lot to look at.

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Do you think the enemies of Israel were peace loving gentle and kind folk? In ancient times only the strong survived and wars were constantly fought over lands and territory. Don't you remember the Pharoh drowned thousands of Jewish babies in the Nile? What about Samson who had his eyes burned out of his sockets?

 

Did you know that some pagan gods, Molec and Baal to name a few, demanded children to be sacrificed in the fire? Human sacrifices was a common among some ancient pagan cultures. Unlike the One God Yahweh who limited sacrifices to animals as a type of Christ the Lamb of God.

 

There was also temple prositution, great sexual misconduct, including beastiality.

 

Remember the story of Jonah? God threatened judgement. The people repented and the city was spared.

 

Some of these ancient cities had such evil practices in them that God wanted them out of the way and the opposing warriors were not about to yeild to Joshua. Don't think the enemies of Israel were any less ruthless, killing men, women and children.

Incredible! I just heard the rhetoric of politicians, "We must go into Kuwait because of how Saddam is mistreating the poor Kuwaitis"... Yeah right!! You may have valid reasons to go to war, but shit like that are just easy sound bites to appease the uniformed public. "Baaaah, save the poor children Baaaaah, Baaah." "Saddam is an evil man." Invade Iraq. Again, there may have been good reasons to invade Iraq, but not because he was "evil". That's crap. We'd be occupying a lot more countries right now if that was our motives.

 

That's the same thing I hear in your answer about God ordering genocide on entire races of people . Face it, that face of God was a political creation by the Hebrews to rally public support. This is not God. This is man manipulating man for political wars. "Besides, they were all bad, so that's why we had to kill all their infants and elderly too so their stinking, polluted bloodline is wiped off the earth". This is what genocide is. This is what they claim Jehovah ordered. Did he really?

 

Please... :eek: It's easy to just tear the OT out and throw it away than to try reconcile this with today's face of God in the 21st century. The other choice of course is to --- not take it literally!

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This whole line of logic reminds me of a 'the tick' cartoon I watched when I was a kid.

"Spoooon!" :lmao:

 

Amy I have told you several times why this is not a valid argument for anything. Just answer one simple question for me. IS GENOCIDE MORAL OR IMORAL? Can you answer that question?

Yes please, is genocide moral or immoral?

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"Spoooon!" :lmao:
"Ah ha-ha, chess. The ancient contest of wits. Two opponents: mano a mano. Braino a braino. And look: magnets for ease of travel. You could play chess on the moon."

 

You know, a religion based on Tick quotes would be fun...

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Excuse me?!!! I did answer you. For awhile you couldn't even get any Christians to come here, remember?

 

 

It seemed your answer was that genocide is ok so long as YOUR god orders it. In my opinion this makes you no better than a racist, it lumps you in with the people who ordered the crusades or witch burrnings. So, I was trying to give you a chance to redem yourself, guess you didn't want to take it though.

 

So is that your answer? or not? because honestly your answer was pretty confusing. Since you really only answered it by saying that other cultures did the same thing...which isn't really an answer, its a dodge of the answer...all I can really do at that point is read between the lines.

 

If this is you answer, so be it, but if it is your answer, the you should know that I have lost what little respect I had for you because this answer just makes you a sick sadistic jerk in my book....and thats putting it as nicely as I can.

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Ok, on second reading I think I finally understand your answer amy. I missed it before because the answer is so unbelievably stupid and crazy I didn't really believe you could be saying this before.

 

it seems what you are saying is that my view of the bible is loopsided because God showed mercy sometimes.

 

 

BUT HE STILL COMMITED GENOCIDE EITHER WAY AMY!!!!

 

would you extend this same logic to other beings? Would you say Hitler was an alright guy because even though he killed a lot of jews he let a lot of them go too? Or would you go even further and say that not only he was a pretty good guy but in fact the standard for morality in the entire universe?

 

 

You are claiming that God "only commits genocide sometimes" and therefore is perfect? To quote the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy, This argument is a load of dingos kidneys....

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You didn't cheer when Aslan killed the White Which or when the towers of Mordor came crashing down and all the orks were killed! Come on!

 

Ride on King Jesus! No man can hinder You!

 

 

other human beings are not witches or orcs...amy you are acting just like a racist....and your inablity to see that your God was just used by the OT jews as a justification of their OWN racism is just....whatever.

 

Its interisting that you bring up those books because they share something in common with the bible....they are all three fiction.

 

And those american soldiers, which I respect, fought for freedom for us...not for the subjication of others....comparing the two is an offense to everything america stands for.

 

 

That's funny Kuroikaze. you invite Christian to answer your question and when they are just trying to be honest (after all it is only an opinion) you lose all respect for them and call them sick sadistic jerks and that's being nice? And you think that I'm intolerant?

 

"Please answer my question and if I don't like it I'll cut you up one side and down the other." Is that what you really wanted to say or something worse?

 

You're a real peace loving person.

 

 

I was TRYING to give you a chance to change your answer, but I guess I got your answer right on and you are a bigot....sorry amy but I don't have respect for bigots.

 

I guess you could say I'm intolerant of intolerance :grin:

 

and Amy I have a right to give respect or withhold it, just as you do. I suspect you don't respect me much do you? What is wrong with saying I have no respect for you, I am merely stating the truth. If people want my respect they must earn it....you have not.

 

and as far as me being a "peace loving person" its safe to say you don't know a damn thing about me, so my self image is not seriously threatened by your sarcastic personal attacks.

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God permits nations to distroy evil and Hitler had to be distroyed. Where would we be if Hitler hadn't been stopped? Where would you be if our soldiers hadn't faught for our freedom,(if you are an American.) You wouldn't be having a picnic and watching the fireworks come next week.

 

 

 

Where would we be if God was real? Oh yeah IN HELL!!!!!! (unless of course we kiss his ass for all of eternity) seems your god has a lot more in common with Hitler than you care to admit.

 

Thank any posible real deity that your God is not real.

 

 

By the way, your response is not even in the vicinity of an answer to my question.

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You applaud our American soldiers for fighting for our freedom. See? We are like minded in this aspect. You don't like it when armies fight to control others. How do you know that the nation the Jews faught would not try to conquer them the first chance they got? That was what is was like then. Conquer or be distroyed. Only the strong survive. What did the Allied forces do when they conquered the Nazis? They took control of the country, the nation was divided between communism and democracy and Nazi war criminals were put on trial. When preventing evil you have to gain the upper hand.

 

 

 

Yes, but did the american soldiers kill every single German? Because thats what God ordered. You are comparing apples to oranges again Amy.

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Yes I do respect you. I didn't call you a jerk nor did I say I would say a lot worse to you because you disagree with my opinion.

 

I don't wish your self image to be distroyed and if I came across that way I'm sorry. I tire of people calling me names just because I'm stating an opinion.

 

You have about enough respect for me to tell me that I have no right to not believe in your pet religion, quite honestly I get tired of christians paying lip service to repsect and then saying hateful things to me, at least I wear my disgust on my sleave.

 

You'll have to excuse me if I think your overtures of respect are about as real as a politicans promise.

 

And I think I have a perfect right to tell you when I think that your beliefs are harmful to both you and to society as a whole.

 

 

And you misunderstand my additude towards war completly. First, I don't believe in absolute evil. Secondly war is always a last resort and a nessary evil. I never "rejoice" when other peoples lives are destoryed.

 

SOMETIMES there is no other way, but to rejoice in killing others is sick in my opinion. If we must kill or go to war we should do it with much regret and the LEAST amount of force nessary. (something our country hasn't learned unfortuantly)

 

The God of the bible taught the Jews to love war, violence, and the exterminaton of their enemies. I dont' think we should ever rejoice in ANYONES distruction, even if they are our enemies.

 

To me, that sort of rejoicing is one of humans WORST traits, and you follow a religion that glorifies what I hate...and tell me that I should rejoice in another persons death? I don't think I should rejoice even at Hitler's death, because to do so would merely lower me to his level.

 

This is why I can't respect you or your position.

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I guess you don't see my point. Most of the time God is merciful and compassionate. Remember God was going to distroy the entire ciy of Ninivah because of the evil the people were doing. The people repented and He withheld judgement. God gives people ton's of chances to repent. He blesses us in so many ways but if evil is advancing it must be stopped.

 

There will come a day when war willl be no more and evil no longer reigns.

 

So I have answered your question the best that I can.

 

I guess we are not going to agree on this one.

 

 

Only because your answer makes no sense, maybe some day you'll see that ALL people are valuble, not just the people your god chooses to visit mercy upon.

 

To quote the book your so fond of, those who have ears let them hear, If you choose to be deaf to the truth then its not my problem.

 

Truthfully, I probalby expected too much from you, your answers were exatly what I should have figured they would be, they were the answer every christian to date that I've spoken to have used, and the answers I told myself for years and years, so its no supprise you use them too.

 

But the lies you believe couldn't convince me forever, and I finally escaped them...maybe someday you will too. despite anything I have said, I still think you are probably a pretty good person...far to good for the sick religion you follow.

 

If I believed in a god that answered prayers I'd pray for you, but alas such a thing does not exist.

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I don't want to hijack this thread, as I like the discussion that is going on in here. I have received some Christian responses to this story on my blog that I would like to share. I am going to post them in the General Theological Issues forum, if you are interested in reading them.

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Despite anything I have said, I still think you are probably a pretty good person.

Thanks! That was very nice of you. I really appreciate it. Here's a palm branch from me to you. Peace!

I don't, keep your fucking palm branch to yourself.

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I do believe there is such a thing as a just war. What happens in the OT is more like ethnic cleansing. When is it ever just to exterminate non combatents? When is it ever just to to exterminate babies? This is what the Israelites did and claimed they had divine sanction for doing so. The fanatics who flew those passenger planes into buildings claimed divine sanction. God is a great tool for justfying hatred, greed and blood lust. What the Israelites did has all the hallmarks of evil men wanting something and being prepared to take it from other people no matter what it takes. hitler was quite prepared to use the xtian god to justify what he did to the Jews. This is not justice but wickedness. Even this wickedness pales in comparison with everlasting punishment for a finite crime.

 

 

When you first came here I thought you were a real apostle of love and that wins my heart everytime even though I might not agree with the persons theology. If this is what a few weeks of hanging around here does to you then maybe its time amy to go or watch your poetry and art go out the window along your humanity in trying to defend the most obnxious aspects of the bible. But maybe this is just how things go, I once loved Jesus with all my heart, soul and mind and followed all the advice he gave to the rich young man but he turned out to be a complete bastard - am sorry for the language, it just how I feel about what he has done in my life . He gave me great emotional highs but it seemed only to maximise the pain when suddenly he showed me what he was in his true nature and it was not the good God that xtinaity pushes. Maybe in your own little way you are now emulating your master by turning out to something different from what seemed promising. Please spare me pictures of the passion, it doesn't work anymore. If you must post images how about those children massacred in Bosnia by xtians or kids undergoing treatment for leukemia or the multitude of mindless sufferings that take place in world created by the good God of the Bible.

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Did you type this post on your computer? You had no fear of someone barging into your house because you were talking about religion. You're able to travel wherever you want without soldiers checking your pastport from city to city. You can choose to salute the flag or not. You have free speech. You can disagree with the President. How did you get those rights? Because someone fought for them. Sometimes war is necessary and yes, sometimes innocent people die in wars.

 

 

To tell the truth, Italy passed from monarchy to being a republic via a regular referendum, followed by regular elections. Not by bloodshedding amongst monarchics and republicans. But that's not the point...

 

If Hitler hadn't been stopped, if Japan hadn't been defeated you might not be sitting in your comfy house right now arguing with me. If you had been there during Pearl harbor what would you have done, waved hello? if you saw a friend being raped would you just go up to the offender, tap him on the solder and say, "please stop doing that?"

 

 

 

But you are dodging my questions again and again... are you doing it on purpose? Not nice at all...

You see, Hitler had to be stopped, you are right. And there was no other way to stop him, he had to be stopped using force. If I saw a friend of mine being raped, I'll stop the offender rather violently, of course. And sometimes people have to fight for their indipendence... and so on and so on.

 

But you are forgetting something... we are not gods.

 

Read what I'm writing: God could've solved those conflicts, both those in the bible and those you talked about, by using his divine powers. God HAS NO NEED of killing and exterminating people, he HAS NO NEED to drown the whole world. He is all powerful, so he does have the power to create a pacifical and efficient solution. Instead of killing sinners with floods and rain of fire, just turn them in good people. Spread his hands, and Hitler becomes a good person since 1933, and a wonderful leader for his country. Snaps his holy fingers, and japan and america made peace without the need for H bombs.

 

 

God sometimes uses force to stop evil. If allowed to spread like cancer, evil causes great distruction

 

 

 

Cannot he stop evil without killing and exterminating and torturing?

If he cannot, he is not all powerful...

 

If he can, and don't want to, WHY doesn't he want to?

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Yes. I failed. I failed all of you and there are no words to tell you how sad I am about my own lack

of Him and His heart and how to express it.

 

Sorry.

 

Why don't you just open your mind to the possibility that your god isn't what he says he is, and that you've failed no one and nothing in reality?

 

That is the truth, ultimately.

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Yes. I failed. I failed all of you and there are no words to tell you how sad I am about my own lack

of Him and His heart and how to express it.

 

Sorry.

 

 

Did you really think that all the same answers we have heard for years would be any more convincing comming from you than they were from any of the christians we have talked to before. I mean, I've personaly read the writings of almsot every major theologin in the last `1600 years and if St. Agustine, Thomas Aquinis, Martin Luther and John Calvin couldn't convince me, what chance did you really think you had.

 

You didn't fail anyone because you simply weren't equiped with the knowledge to convert me....but only because such knowledge does not exist.

 

 

Why don't you just open your mind to the possibility that your god isn't what he says he is, and that you've failed no one and nothing in reality?

 

That is the truth, ultimately.

 

 

She won't though...at least not right now. No one likes to admit they are wrong in the middle of an argument.

 

I rememeber when I was a christian hearing people attack christianity with some of the same things I say now, and I remember being shocked that any one would reject it on moral grounds...least of all a relativist...I mean relativists dont' HAVE morals right? :ugh:

 

Now that I'm both a relativist and a non-christian...as well as a follower of Taoist and Confucianist teachings. well, all I can say is that I had no idea what I was talking about back then.

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Thanks! That was very nice of you. I really appreciate it. Here's a palm branch from me to you. Peace!

I don't, keep your fucking palm branch to yourself.

:HaHa:

 

Yeah. Why a palm branch? I can't smoke that one! :grin:

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This whole line of logic reminds me of a 'the tick' cartoon I watched when I was a kid.

"Spoooon!" :lmao:

 

Amy I have told you several times why this is not a valid argument for anything. Just answer one simple question for me. IS GENOCIDE MORAL OR IMORAL? Can you answer that question?

Yes please, is genocide moral or immoral?

 

if there is no religion, then where do morals come from? who decides what is moral or not? can one man that doesn't believe in homosexuality decide it is not moral for the person who is in love with someone of the same sex? if there is no God, then where did our morals come from? who decides that a genocide is inmoral?

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If a rapest is at your door ready to rape and kill your wife or husband you get up and fight. If your best friend is on the street and he is attacked for no reason, you fight.

Yes you do protect your loved ones. You would fight off the rapist or help your friend who is

being attacked. But, once the suspect has been taken care of, do you then go to the suspects

home and butcher his wife and kids? Then kill all his family pets? And for good measure, go ahead

and murder his neighbor and their family? You seem to be saying conflict is sometimes necessary.

Of course it is. That's life. There are limits though. You are right Hitler's war machine had to

be stopped by force. That was unfortunately necessary. But, as someone else has pointed out

the Allied forces did not exterminate everything breathing. They did not murder every man,

woman, child, unborn children, and livestock. It appears to me you have justified conflict.

You have yet to justify genocide.

 

 

 

 

 

if there is no religion, then where do morals come from? who decides what is moral or not? can one man that doesn't believe in homosexuality decide it is not moral for the person who is in love with someone of the same sex? if there is no God, then where did our morals come from? who decides that a genocide is inmoral?

So to get around the obvious answer that genocide can never be justified, you attempt

to get into the gawd has a moral gene/ what exactly is moral, debate. I will not bite.

You do not need a book or gawd to tell you it is wrong. In your opinion, freeday, is it right

to completely wipe out every man, woman, child of a country/religion/sect/etc. that

opposes you? Yes or no?

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if there is no religion, then where do morals come from? who decides what is moral or not? can one man that doesn't believe in homosexuality decide it is not moral for the person who is in love with someone of the same sex? if there is no God, then where did our morals come from? who decides that a genocide is inmoral?

They come from us. We do. Yes, but only for themselves. From us. We do, each one of us.

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if there is no religion, then where do morals come from? who decides what is moral or not? can one man that doesn't believe in homosexuality decide it is not moral for the person who is in love with someone of the same sex? if there is no God, then where did our morals come from? who decides that a genocide is inmoral?

Are you kidding with this post? Do you REALLY believe that morals and religion are connected?

 

Christians killed other Christians over the centuries during Inquisitions. Were their actions "moral"?

 

"God" and his chosen people killed their enemies in the bible for the "crime" of occupying their own land. Is this behavior "moral"?

 

Adolph Hitler was "religious", as were his followers. Were their actions "moral"?

 

KKK members are religious. Is racism and hate and lynching black people "moral"?

 

Muslims "religiously" kill themselves and others in the name of "Allah". Are they "moral"?

 

Do I need to go on? Do you REALLY want to walk down this path of thinking that morality is equated with religion? Give me a break! If anything, we can see that the two concepts are mutually exclusive.

 

And what the hell does homosexuality have to do with anything? How is a sex act between people an "immoral" act? Who the hell is being hurt? You? And if so, tell me how? Why are you Xians so focused on ONE "sin" over ALL the others? "God" addressed heterosexual sins a hundred times more often than homosexuality. Adultery, lying, stealing, murder, gluttony, PRIDE and so on are all NAMED "sins" in the bible, and yet you Xians studiously ignore them. Why is that?

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So to get around the obvious answer that genocide can never be justified, you attempt

to get into the gawd has a moral gene/ what exactly is moral, debate. I will not bite.

You do not need a book or gawd to tell you it is wrong. In your opinion, freeday, is it right

to completely wipe out every man, woman, child of a country/religion/sect/etc. that

opposes you? Yes or no?

 

i was not trying to baite you. i would never jump into the moral gene debate. i don't think such a gene exists, unless you were trying to incinuate that the Holy spirite would jump in our hearts and give us morals. as crazy as it sounds, that is what i beleive.

 

i would never kill anyone unless threatened or by accident (i drive like mad crazy). so no, it is inmorall to do genocide based on my standards. we have looked at this every way possible i think. i wrote a really good write up the other day giving a glimpse of the power the God i beleive in. so my whole take on the sittuation is that the genocides are a result of culture and of an infinite wisdom. I have not attianed a point to where i don't believe in the God of israel. If you don't believe in him or his works, then the originall story that was written would appear valid.

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if there is no religion, then where do morals come from? who decides what is moral or not? can one man that doesn't believe in homosexuality decide it is not moral for the person who is in love with someone of the same sex? if there is no God, then where did our morals come from? who decides that a genocide is inmoral?

What morals?

 

Have you read the 613 laws (moral laws) in the OT, and follow them all?

 

Don't eat shellfish, stone disobedient sons, etc, do you do that?

 

Every religion have something about "Don't murder, don't steal, don't lie".

 

If you look at Game Theory, you'll understand that the best game played is when certain rules or "ethics" are in place. A game of complete chaos and disorder breaks down and disappears. The morals have evolved through the centuries because they saved human lifes. Imagine a society where it would be moral to kill, that tribe would die and disappear, wouldn't it? So it's very simple, these morals or rules, have evolved and grown out from the understanding that this is needed to keep society safe and stable.

 

Animals don't go around and kill each other. I mean, gorillas live in peace in the family, and don't kill each other in there. Why? Do they obey a moral code to avoid it? Why don't they just kill each other since they don't have a godly given moral code on some stone tables? Actually they have found out that gorillas have morals too. They have social structure and "ideas" that they follow and obey to. Ideas that help them maintain stability and peace.

 

Moral is a result of development of the intellect. Nothing more. "We" invented morals, and then we invented God to explain where the morals came from. God is nothing more than the term for the memesphere of ideas.

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i was not trying to baite you. i would never jump into the moral gene debate. i don't think such a gene exists,

I don't either. But I do believe there is a gene (or genes) that help us build the frontal lobe and the executive function of the brain, so we can memorize and understand concepts of "rules-to-follow" (moral). The moral code is on the other hand (IMO) a meme that has evolved just like the genes.

 

Btw, is it moral to bomb an abortion clinic, when the Bible doesn't say anything about abortions? The only thing the Bible say is when God commands the Israelites to kill the women, cut out the fetus and smash it against the rocks, other than that, the "moral code book" of yours is silent. "Thou shalt not murder", but yet Christians add "unless I hate them".

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