Here Is Why I Don't Believe

[Antlerman]

Here's one for you. As horrible as it was, would you agree that unless America had dropped the bomb on Hiroshima that Japan would have never surrendered? Many inncocent people died but it was a necessary force to prevent the war from continuing and thus many more of our own soldiers would have died. In God's case, extreme measures are taken to prevent the spread of evil. Nip in the bud.

Oh Amy... you sound like a victim of abuse making excuses for their abusive husband. "If Bob hadn't smashed our son against the wall breaking his arm, who knows what horrible things little Billy might have gotten into. He already disobeys his father by taking his bike out after dark. I have to trust my husband. It's my godly role as his wife to not question his sovereignty over us."

 

Compare to:

 

"If our Heavenly Father hadn't directly ordered the wholesale extermination entire races of human beings - from little infants, to invalids, to the elderly, who knows what bad things they might have done if God hadn't ordered every last one of them killed."

 

I'm beginning to understand the sort of relationship you have to Yahweh. Your theology tells me. Very unattractive.

[Vigile]

This isn't true that we nearly lost the war and the bomb was what caused Japan to surrender?

The war would have continued and many more of our own soldiers woukld have died. Perhaps we would have then lost the war and you wouldn't have the freedom you have today. Please enlightene me.

 

So in your mind it's ok to kill millions including women and children to save a few thousand soldiers? Whether the war would have gone on for years without the bomb is debatable.

 

But really, comparing your supposedly omnipotent god with falable man (as if he could find no better solution to this imaginary problem than wholesale slaughter)...

 

Stop making excuses for a monster.

[Antlerman]

This isn't true that we nearly lost the war and the bomb was what caused Japan to surrender?

The war would have continued and many more of our own soldiers woukld have died. Perhaps we would have then lost the war and you wouldn't have the freedom you have today. Please enlightene me.

Goodness. You obviously didn't read all the posts above with detail why the bomb was unnecessary. Here's just one to look at http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=191056 There are many others right there for you.

 

But answer this for me Amy. If the A-Bomb saved lives, then why send any troops in going forward into any war? Isn't it amoral of us not to just nuke our adversaries in order to save American lives? You have a very narrow way of looking at human life Amy. Your religious values are starting to slide down off my respect pole.

[Checkmate]

This isn't true that we nearly lost the war and the bomb was what caused Japan to surrender?

The war would have continued and many more of our own soldiers woukld have died. Perhaps we would have then lost the war and you wouldn't have the freedom you have today. Please enlightene me.

"Please enlighten me"? What's the problem? You can't see/read the posts from HanSolo and Julian? You can't access the links provided? You don't have search engines of your own?

 

Or is this just the typical selective blindness characteristic of Amy Marie?

 

Amy, you don't WANT to be "enlightened". You're simply here to yank our chains. You're a waste of flesh.

[Asuryan]

This isn't true that we nearly lost the war and the bomb was what caused Japan to surrender?

 

 

 

No, it is not true at all.

 

More informations can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan

 

Wikipedia is neither atheist nor christian - it is just an encyclopedia.

 

Read as much as you want.

[nick5]

.

[Ouroboros]

Amy, why are you so blind? Jesus said that he would make blind people see, but in your case you have become blinded by faith, superstition and presumed propaganda. Please, listen, there is a strong debate that Japan already tried to surrender, but US managed to force the hand of Japan to continue fighting. And that was before the bomb. If you continue to refuse to read and look into facts I must change my opinion about you and conclude you're nothing but another Troll infesting our site.

 

[Kuroikaze]

This isn't true that we nearly lost the war and the bomb was what caused Japan to surrender?

The war would have continued and many more of our own soldiers woukld have died. Perhaps we would have then lost the war and you wouldn't have the freedom you have today. Please enlightene me.

 

 

No that isn't true, it was propaganda. As I said before, at least a week before the first bomb was dropped the emporer had ordered his generals to offer a peace settlement. The only debate was that the generals feared the emporer would be disposed....which by the way, he wasn't. McArther left him in power.

 

The bomb was likely dropped to scare the Russians because Truman could see a "cold war" comming with them.

 

Trust me on this Amy, I am not only a ardent student of history I am about as huge Japanophile as you'll ever meet, I have studied Japanese history including WW2 more than anyone I know. I have read at least 3 books on Japan's role in WW2 and all historians I know of agree that the bombing was unessary for ending the war.

 

Another posibility is that the U.S. simply wanted pay back for Pearl Harbor. Which in my opinion was not nearly as horible as americans make it out to be. The Japanese sneak attacked a military base, and had acctually sent a decleration of war that morning, it just wasn't recieved because it was translated slowly.

 

How many times has the U.S. pretened to make peace while launching a sneak attack. We did it with the native americans plenty of times. So the Japanse were certianly no worse than us.

[Kuroikaze]

It seem that out problem in comunicating stems from a basic difference of opinions about the nature of the world. You see things in black and white, Good against evil. and so on and so forth. Comparing these events to things in fantasy books prove this.

 

Now I love fantasy books, but I understand that the polarity between good and evil only reside in such places of fantasy.

 

In the real world things aren't this simple. People generally only act to preserve themselves and their own freedom. When our country fights a war, we don't do it because we are the "good guys" we do it because someone is threating us and we fight to continue to exist.

 

On the other hand those who we fight may feel the exact same way, they just feel we are a threat to their existance for some reason. Who is right? who is wrong? Perhaps boths sides are right. Its just not that simple to say the Jews were good and their enemies were evil.

 

If the Jews did commit genocide I don't really blame them, because they were merely products of an environment that told them these sort of actons were good choices. However, to say their choices were actually at the behest of a benovolent god just doesn't fit the facts.

[Antlerman]

How many times has the U.S. pretened to make peace while launching a sneak attack. We did it with the native americans plenty of times.

I wonder if America became a Christian theocracy, if the history books would start looking like the OT, and the Christian faithful of tomorrow would believe that the Native American's were somehow horrible sinners in God's eyes deserving of what God's people the Christians did to them. Yep, I'm leaning to that being the case, point in hand, the Genocide of the Canaanites excuse.

 

I find this account below to be far less absurd than the actual OT story of God's Holy Genocide:

LAUNCELOT:

We have the Holy Hand Grenade.

ARTHUR:

Yes, of course! The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch! 'Tis one of the sacred relics Brother Maynard carries with him. Brother Maynard! Bring up the Holy Hand Grenade!

MONKS: [chanting]

Pie Iesu domine, dona eis requiem.

Pie Iesu domine, dona eis requiem. Pie Iesu domine, dona eis requiem. Pie Iesu domine, dona eis requiem.

ARTHUR:

How does it, um-- how does it work?

LAUNCELOT:

I know not, my liege.

ARTHUR:

Consult the Book of Armaments!

BROTHER MAYNARD:

Armaments, chapter two, verses nine to twenty-one.

SECOND BROTHER:

And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, 'O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade that, with it, Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits in Thy mercy.'

And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats and large chu--

MAYNARD:

Skip a bit, Brother.

SECOND BROTHER:

And the Lord spake, saying, 'First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then, shalt thou count to three. No more. No less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then, lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.'

MAYNARD:

Amen.

KNIGHTS:

Amen.

ARTHUR:

Right!

One!... Two!... Five!

GALAHAD:

Three, sir!

ARTHUR:

Three!

[angels sing]

[boom]

[Kurari]

Um, I think you are all very unfairly jumping on Amy Marie on this point. My grandparents were part of the Manhatten Project and they described the attitudes and thought processes of the day, which is exactly what Amy posted. She is also describing exactly what was taught to me in school. If she's running on inaccurate information, I'm not surprised. I only found that part about the surrender on my own by accident years later.

 

I've also done reports on the bombs dropped on Japan and I've been there as well. I've seen the shadows left by the people who were incinerated where they sat. I've also been to Ground Zero in New York. Both places raised the hair on the back on my neck.

 

War isn't about morality. War is cold, impersonal, horrible, nasty, violent, and selfish. Soldiers don't aim down their rifles thinking that the person they are aiming at has a wife and a child who's going to miss their father. That's shit that creeps into their nightmares later. Morals make stirring points for propaganda, support, motivation, and morale, but they are never really "reasons" to get into a war. Not wars you want to win, anyway. Morals don't turn a profit. War is about securing power and making money. The apologetics and "morals" talk about good and evil is just a salve on that troublesome compassion thing that humans have. It's easier to kill somebody and alter the lives of people if you don't see them as human in the first place.

 

In the end, war is like religion. It's about if it works or doesn't work, not if it's right or wrong.

[Checkmate]

Um, I think you are all very unfairly jumping on Amy Marie on this point. My grandparents were part of the Manhatten Project and they described the attitudes and thought processes of the day, which is exactly what Amy posted. She is also describing exactly what was taught to me in school. If she's running on inaccurate information, I'm not surprised. I only found that part about the surrender on my own by accident years later.

.................

I disagree. I think we're being totally fair with Amy.

 

Like you, Amy and probably every other American, I was raised to believe that the USA was "just" in bombing Japan. We received a steady diet of this propaganda all our lives. And I NEVER heard or read the counterpoint arguments that have been presented in this thread. This condition is called IGNORANCE. Not having the correct information to make an intelligent decision.

 

However, once you ARE given MORE information, and given it on a silver platter, and STILL you cling to a wrong-headed position? Now you are just being STUPID.

 

Amy is being stupid. She has steadfastly clung to retarded positions IN SPITE of being given information that challenges her cherished brainwashing. She insists on pretending not to see or understand what has been written. Yes, she HAD inaccurate information. What's her excuse now?

 

It is one thing to disagree, but it is altogether different to act like no evidence has been presented to refute your position just because you don't like it. That's just being disingenuous.

[Ouroboros]

And still, there is a huge issue if someone think that it's moral and just to kill babies, kids, elderly and handicapped and still let the people in power and leadership keep their lifes. Justice is to take the leaders to trial, and save the people from death, destruction and pain. Not the other way around.

 

Biblical Justice:

[♦ ficino ♦]

My opinion is we should all drop the A-bomb analogy. We all know the point is that God is supposed to be omnipotent, etc. etc. and nevertheless he stops evil by slaughtering innocents; he deters it by purportedly tormenting his own creatures forever, when he determines the actions for which he torments them.

 

Mr. Grinch, why do you never stop making so damn much sense? When the fascist takeover comes, I'm afraid you'll be one of the first they realize they have to round up. No naked emperor gets by your scrutiny! Rock on, bro

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

And still, there is a huge issue if someone think that it's moral and just to kill babies, kids, elderly and handicapped and still let the people in power and leadership keep their lifes. Justice is to take the leaders to trial, and save the people from death, destruction and pain. Not the other way around.

 

Biblical Justice:

 

 

Guys, why should amy care if a population of godless heathens gets fried and then refied? In her worldview they are already kindling. Why should she bat an eye if they have to burn a little bit on earth as well as in hell?

[Ouroboros]

Shiva, you're touching an important part of the Hiroshima analogy. All those people that where fried there went to Hell to be fried for eternity.

 

 

Well, thanks God, nice work! We should be happy we ended their life here on earth, and didn't give them the chance of hearing the Gospel, just so we could guarantee their full and complete eternal torture. Thank you Jeeeesus! God is loving and just.

 

 

 

Fucking Hell NO! We can't believe this to be true. God can't send people to Hell just because we ended their lives early. The analogy give us more reasons to believe that if there is a God and Heaven, then it can't be the exclusive club of the few selected.

[Lycorth]

this is why i think most people resort to being athiest unfortunately, you look at God as a monster, but nothing could be further from the truth. with evolution, there are no reprocusions for immoral behavior. these pagans that were slaughtered were guilty of worshiping idols, child sacrifice, raping of women. it was a horrindous society. God does not delight in the death of the wicked.

 

What a load of horseshit.

 

Son, you are one of the most pitiful examples of that slave-cult of yours. Only an utterly naive and sheeplike mind such as yours could possibly believe that all the Pagans who were killed were guilty of the crimes you claim.

 

You are nothing but a worthless zombie, parroting the lies of your filthy pastors. Just like the majority of Christ-blinded cocksuckers, you parrot what you're told like a good little boy, without doing an ounce of research first.

 

Son, there is no proof any of that ever happened like you claim. Yes, there were human sacrifices at times, but by individuals, and it was occasional and never a widespread thing. Often times, criminals were sacrificed to Odin. Boohoo, criminals.

 

Also, there is nothing in most Pagan religions mandating any sort of sacrifice. All such sacrificial traditions were man-made, not god-ordained - like the countless murders your god is said to have committed in the Holah Babble™. Heathen religions is malleable and it evolves - it is not dogmatic. Xianity, on the other hand, has a shitload of clear and cruel rules - like the forcible conversion of unbelievers. Justify that, you waste of flesh.

 

Only an idiot like you would believe otherwise. But without your pastor to lead you around by the leash, you wouldn't know a thing, I think. Either come up with some real evidence or kindly keep your trap shut, unless you want it shut for you.

 

How many humans were sacrificed over the centuries in the name of Jeezus™, on the excuse they were heretics or non-xians or whatever? Far more millions than even your fairy-tales about Pagan civilizations claim to number.

 

Disingenuous fuck.

[Checkmate]

this is why i think most people resort to being athiest unfortunately, you look at God as a monster, but nothing could be further from the truth. with evolution, there are no reprocusions for immoral behavior. these pagans that were slaughtered were guilty of worshiping idols, child sacrifice, raping of women. it was a horrindous society. God does not delight in the death of the wicked.

What a load of horseshit.

 

Son, you are one of the most pitiful examples of that slave-cult of yours. Only an utterly naive and sheeplike mind such as yours could possibly believe that all the Pagans who were killed were guilty of the crimes you claim.

 

You are nothing but a worthless zombie, parroting the lies of your filthy pastors. Just like the majority of Christ-blinded cocksuckers, you parrot what you're told like a good little boy, without doing an ounce of research first.

..................

Disingenuous fuck.

Good catch/call, Varokhar! I missed this post from freeday. I suppose I've been too focused on flaming Amy Marie. Also, I WAS giving freeday a "free pass" of sorts, since he was invited to participate. I didn't want to be rude to an invited guest.

 

However, if he's going to start dropping bullshit like THIS on the rug, then I'm going to have to re-evaluate my non-flaming policy on invited idiots.

 

freeday? You're on notice, pal! Stop being a dumb-ass.

 

................

Mr. Grinch, why do you never stop making so damn much sense? When the fascist takeover comes, I'm afraid you'll be one of the first they realize they have to round up. No naked emperor gets by your scrutiny! Rock on, bro

Aww, I stop making sense lots of times! I'm just on a roll lately. My time will come to look stupid soon enough. But thanks for the compliment anyway.

[freeday]

 

Disingenuous fuck.

 

my feelings have been hurt. this was one of my first posts, i think i have learned much since then. no hard feelings.

[freeday]

Shiva, you're touching an important part of the Hiroshima analogy. All those people that where fried there went to Hell to be fried for eternity.

 

 

Well, thanks God, nice work! We should be happy we ended their life here on earth, and didn't give them the chance of hearing the Gospel, just so we could guarantee their full and complete eternal torture. Thank you Jeeeesus! God is loving and just.

 

 

 

Fucking Hell NO! We can't believe this to be true. God can't send people to Hell just because we ended their lives early. The analogy give us more reasons to believe that if there is a God and Heaven, then it can't be the exclusive club of the few selected.

 

what about those who didn't hear the gospel, are they bound to hell? i don't think they are.

 

2 Pet 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

 

(sorry for the KJV, i am at work and this is all i have available.)

 

I think the ignorant are judged differently than the people who have heard the gospel.

[Mythra]

what about those who didn't hear the gospel, are they bound to hell? i don't think they are.

 

Well, freeday - now you're speaking the truth. Those who have not heard the gospel are not bound to hell.

 

Of course, no one else is either.

 

And I don't need a bible verse to tell me that's true.

[Kat22]

Amy, God bless you for keeping it up... You have not failed because it is not you sending the message, it is God. God has not failed because His goal is to give them every chance. He succeeds in doing that when His children tell others of His love and kindness. When we remind others that we only know half of the history and not to judge the Judge just because we don't understand. That's all we can do. You have succeeded in that task.

 

As for my two cents (which is only worth as much as the Lord sees fit)...

 

Why make it complicated by bringing in only the PARTS of what we see and then try to say we understand? Take that show People's Court. You hear one side and you are SURE you know that the other one is guilty. Then you hear the other side and things start making sense. Hind site is 20/20 and God has perfect hind site. He sees everything that we don't and knows what we do not know. Those who choose not to believe that will fight a Christian till the bitter end when they are told that God really does love them. But the proof is there and that won't change.

 

Why act as if we went back in time and saw first hand how CRUEL and UNJUST God was? Do we KNOW those people were completely innocent and KNOW they would have repented had they been given a chance? NO. Only God knows it all.

 

Do we KNOW that the soldiers laughed as they heartlessly slaughtered men, women and children? Maybe those children were spared a worse fate and God was being merciful? What if the soldiers were as merciful as they could be and cried for them? But knew that God had a reason for His orders and they would not go against Him as if "they knew better than God". These are things we do not know... cannot know.

 

One can believe in God or deny Him, it is your choice and you should not be hated or judge by a Christian for it. We provide the information, remind you that (even if you see Him as barbaric) He still loves you and wants a relationship with you, and we leave the door open. If you choose not to walk through because you cannot travel back in time to see the whole picture just so you can agree with the decision of the Almighty, that is your choice. We are arrogant when we think that we understand more than the Creator. And we are ALL guilty of that.

 

We tend to forget that we only see part of the picture. Even Christians aren't sure about God's complete motivations ("for who can know the mind of God?") and should never say they are. If we pick out the violence in the bible and say "That's God", of course we will think that He is too cruel to be real. All we can be sure of is that God knows what we don't and His PATTERN is love and mercy (even sacrificing Himself for us). All we can do is base our assumptions off of the pattern we see, not only in the bible, but in the ways He helps us through our own lives. Wherever a door closes, another one opens. Why is that so? Because God opens those doors and always gives us a way. That is His mercy and love...take it or leave it.

[Mythra]

Okay freeday, now about the quote you used from 2 Peter:

 

You do realize, don't you, that 2 Peter was not written by Peter. It's dated as late as 160 CE. Your early church fathers - Origen, Jerome, and Eusebius all expressed doubts as to it's authenticity, and fought its being incorporated into the canon. 2 Peter borrows almost the entire epistle of Jude.

 

Bottom line: pseudepigraphic. Another early christian who was willing to lie to advance the religion.

 

Now, if you want to claim a second century copycat who ascribed this work to Peter in order to gain acceptance is the AUTHENTIC WORD OF THE LIVING GOD - knock yourself out.

 

We may need a little more than that.

[Ouroboros]

what about those who didn't hear the gospel, are they bound to hell? i don't think they are.

 

2 Pet 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

 

(sorry for the KJV, i am at work and this is all i have available.)

 

I think the ignorant are judged differently than the people who have heard the gospel.

Now we're getting somewhere. That's what I'm getting at.

 

People that have not heard the Gospel have a better chance of going to Heaven, then people that have heard it. Since a person that live righteously, but haven't heard the Gospel have a good chance of going there, while a person that live righteously and hear it, have a large chance of rejecting it and hence seal their fate of going to Hell.

 

So all considered, it's better NOT to preach the Gospel, but let people just live their lives.

[Lycorth]

my feelings have been hurt. this was one of my first posts, i think i have learned much since then. no hard feelings.

 

Good

 

Amy, God bless you for keeping it up... You have not failed because it is not you sending the message, it is God. God has not failed because His goal is to give them every chance. He succeeds in doing that when His children tell others of His love and kindness. When we remind others that we only know half of the history and not to judge the Judge just because we don't understand. That's all we can do. You have succeeded in that task.

 

Amy has failed, Kat. And so have you. We have every right to question what doesn't make sense, and your religion of Yahwehic vengeance on innocent people doesn't make sense to us.

 

If your god is all-powerful, then why does he play games and not just eradicate evil? Does he not care about the people who innocently fall prey to evil? Or is he rather the evil one, letting people end up in Hell™ when he could've done away with all that? Or is he simply impotent, and cannot implement his will but by struggle, which means he's not all-powerful after all?

 

As for my two cents (which is only worth as much as the Lord sees fit)...

 

Oh, show some self-respect. Your self-hating cult is so insiduous for the way it saps a person's self-worth.

 

Why make it complicated by bringing in only the PARTS of what we see and then try to say we understand? Take that show People's Court. You hear one side and you are SURE you know that the other one is guilty. Then you hear the other side and things start making sense. Hind site is 20/20 and God has perfect hind site. He sees everything that we don't and knows what we do not know. Those who choose not to believe that will fight a Christian till the bitter end when they are told that God really does love them. But the proof is there and that won't change.

 

Why make it complicated by only bringing in parts of what you want us to see? Why do Xian preachers never talk about the mass murders committed in Sodom and Gomorrah, or the babies and little kids drowned in the Flood? You Xians have been lying since your cult started, and never have you had answers for it - except to force your cult on others by threats and the sword.

 

You god knows nothing and I dare him to prove he exists and/or has any power over me. Right now.

 

I'm waiting...

 

Why act as if we went back in time and saw first hand how CRUEL and UNJUST God was? Do we KNOW those people were completely innocent and KNOW they would have repented had they been given a chance? NO. Only God knows it all.

 

Why act? Because with Babble™ stories, we can to back in time (figuratively speaking, especially since there's no proof that anything in the Babble™ ever happened) and thereby judge your god according to the events he's depicted as having done.

 

How do we know of their innocence? Well, how do you know they were guilty? Why do you accept the Babble™ and not your own good sense? Because, perhaps, you know that your own natural morals would be repulsed at a god who incinerates cities and drowns the whole earth.

 

And what sins could've unborn babies, little children, and animals have done to warrant death? In Sodom and Gomorrah as well as during the Flood, you can be sure there were many people who were doing nothing wrong.

 

Hitler also thought the Jews were doing wrong, even without proof in most cases, yet he judged them. Stalin thought his dissenters were doing wrong when they dared to hold differing opinions, but he still judged them. They also held themselves as the arbitors of right and wrong in their socieites. By your logic, they were right.

 

Shame on you.

 

Do we KNOW that the soldiers laughed as they heartlessly slaughtered men, women and children? Maybe those children were spared a worse fate and God was being merciful? What if the soldiers were as merciful as they could be and cried for them? But knew that God had a reason for His orders and they would not go against Him as if "they knew better than God". These are things we do not know... cannot know.

 

But you also cannot know they were evil. Like I said, just because your god claims it, doesn't make it right. Or did the children magically remain unburned or magically stayed afloat and magically survived when their parents did not? And how awful was it for them to see their parents drown and still have to live? That would even be worse than drowning.

 

You're really a sick fuck, you know?

 

One can believe in God or deny Him, it is your choice and you should not be hated or judge by a Christian for it. We provide the information, remind you that (even if you see Him as barbaric) He still loves you and wants a relationship with you, and we leave the door open. If you choose not to walk through because you cannot travel back in time to see the whole picture just so you can agree with the decision of the Almighty, that is your choice. We are arrogant when we think that we understand more than the Creator. And we are ALL guilty of that.

 

You lie. Your god does not love us, for if he did, he'd eradicate evil and protect his supposedly beloved creations. Rather, he lets the devil tempt us, gleefully burns us when we slip up, and promises to hear our prayers and yet never does so.

 

We are truthful when we claim to know more than your phony god. We do. He is evil incarnate, the admitted creator of evil, and he is to blame (if he exists as you say he does) for all evil. I'd rather burn with the devil and all the good people of this world than go to your god's slave-pen.

 

But since there's no evidence to suggest Yahooweh™ is what you say he is, or that he exists at all, it's no problem. You bleat for nothing, and I will not turn my back on my loved ones to worship your devil.

 

We tend to forget that we only see part of the picture. Even Christians aren't sure about God's complete motivations ("for who can know the mind of God?") and should never say they are. If we pick out the violence in the bible and say "That's God", of course we will think that He is too cruel to be real. All we can be sure of is that God knows what we don't and His PATTERN is love and mercy (even sacrificing Himself for us). All we can do is base our assumptions off of the pattern we see, not only in the bible, but in the ways He helps us through our own lives. Wherever a door closes, another one opens. Why is that so? Because God opens those doors and always gives us a way. That is His mercy and love...take it or leave it.

 

You also forget that you see only part of the picture - the picture your pastors paint for you.

 

Saying "who can know the mind of Gawd?" is a sop to the consciences of those who know their idea of a god is insane and sick, yet are too afraid to challenge it. They are too afraid to look behind the curtain and see the Wizard isn't nearly as terrible as he claims to be.

 

I leave it. I leave the lies you offer. There is no pattern of anything, for I have sought it and found it not. An all-powerful god doesn't need to play games or concoct plans - he wills and his will is done. An all-good god does not play games or let evil beings threaten us, but rather realizes his moral obligaiton to remove them and does so.

 

His "sacrifice" is nothing. He gave up nothing, and thought he might have suffered, he still came back alive and went back to Heaven™, safe and sound. He didn't stay in Hell™ for us, nor did he give us anything but a sick ultimatium - believe in me or burn.

 

That's not love.

 

That's pure evil.