Thinking About Amy-marie

[white_raven23]

Don't you think there are better ways to communicate instead of through personal insults? Amy

 

Show me where it is written that you are obligated to take personal insults personally.

 

"No one can make you feel inferior without your permission." -Eleanor Roosevelt

 

Thicken your skin.

[Ouroboros]

In deed, at the end of the trial of Galileo in 1633, the formal church declaration was "The doctrine that the earth is neither the center of the universe nor immovable, but moves even with a daily rotation, is absurd, and both psychologically and theologically false, and at the very least an error of faith."

 

Because of his views, Galileo then in his 70's, was taken down into the dungeons of the church and shown the instruments of torture that were going to be used on him if he did not recant.

 

Even today, a number of Christian groups advocate the absolute authenticity and infallibility of the Bible and insist that the Earth is, in reality, flat.

 

So I would disagree, at least in part.

 

The Catholic Church has on occasions followed the strict interpretation of the Bible and a “Flat Earth” and some (admittedly no many) present day Christian groups still do.

But wasn't the issue with Galieo about if our solar system was geocentric or heliocentric, not really if the earth was flat or spherical.

 

It's true there have been times when both the Church and other cultures believe Earth was flat, and that the Bible kind of hints that way, but I don't think that was any problem between Galileo and Cardinal Bellarmine. And he did have admirers in the Catholic Church, that's why he wasn't just tortured and killed. Friends in high places come handy sometimes.

 

 

Wikipedia have good article about Flat Earth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

[KT45]

I can sympathize with Amy. It's like going being in a town where most of the people dislikes you, dislike where you came from, insult you and talks bad about the people you love. At this town only 2 or 3 people seem to care for you but even they give you a hard time. I wouldn't really want to stay there.

 

I can also understand not answering all the questions asked at me. If I got asked 15 questions and tried to answer one or two and got cursed at for taking so long then finally answered the question only to bring up even more questions it would be a little overwhelming, especially if the questions were very scholarly and I never even tried to go that deep into the subject matter. And all the while some people insult me an the answers I give.

 

There was only one thing that stuck me as odd when Amy started talking and saying things like "jeepers" and "golly" or here giving people "big hugs!!!". For a second I thought she wasn't genuine and I started to lose a little respect for her. After a while I just felt she was just trying to lighten the mood or the atmosphere. I'm not sure if she was doing this or not but I won't judge her. Her beliefs seem to make her happy and enjoy life. She doesn't seem to condemn people and seems like a overall good person.

 

yeah I know it sounds like I'm nuthugging but I also understand why the people on this forum are the way they are and I talked to her about that. I just like to see it for other peoples point of view.

 

Anyway I understand why she would want to leave. I just want to know if Amy got anything out of this expierence or at least how she sees us now?

[white_raven23]

When they are addressed to "Amy." Yeah. Of course I take them personally.

 

So WHAT if they are addressed to you? You still aren't obligated to take an insult personally. How "personal" can it be if the person who says something is 5000 miles away? Big whoop. It's not the same as someone who walks up to your house, rings the doorbell, and slaps your face, now is it?

 

Take this to heart...... even when someone slams me TO MY FACE (doesn't happen much anymore...but still), I just look at that someone and say: "Who are YOU that I should consider your opinion worth a damn?"

 

Can you please tell me how long other of my species have lasted on this forum? Perhaps they were tougher than I?

 

It varies. Some take the heat, others get out of the kitchen.

[Antlerman]

With all due respect that’s not strictly correct

 

Whilst the Church sometimes did advocate the Ptolemeric view, there were on numerous occasions various Popes and cardinals that alternately rejected and re-established this view.

 

In deed, at the end of the trial of Galileo in 1633, the formal church declaration was "The doctrine that the earth is neither the center of the universe nor immovable, but moves even with a daily rotation, is absurd, and both psychologically and theologically false, and at the very least an error of faith."

 

Because of his views, Galileo then in his 70's, was taken down into the dungeons of the church and shown the instruments of torture that were going to be used on him if he did not recant.

 

Even today, a number of Christian groups advocate the absolute authenticity and infallibility of the Bible and insist that the Earth is, in reality, flat.

 

So I would disagree, at least in part.

 

The Catholic Church has on occasions followed the strict interpretation of the Bible and a “Flat Earth” and some (admittedly no many) present day Christian groups still do.

 

Thanks

 

Sparrow

This is the best article on the Myth of the Flat Earth Myth. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/history/1997Russell.html It was also posted on Nasa's web site, where I first read it many years ago.

 

It discusses an complete lack of any documents that state this view back in the time of Columbus and back, and that the first occurrence of it in literature happened with Washington Irving in the 1800's. When you consider that any sea-going vessel's mast can be seen going down over an arch on the horizon, it does boggle the mind to think anyone could conceive it as flat.

 

As far as the rotation objection to Galileo, the objection had to do that they could not feel the movement, not that the earth wasn't a ball. The earth was stationary in their views, not necessarily flat.

[white_raven23]

Are most of the participants on this forum guys? I think guys deal with issues more forcefully.

 

I am starting to see you more like people that I could hang out with and not a bunch of lion's ready to kill me.

 

And I bet some of the guys are really cute too.

 

 

Woman here!

[Sparrow]

Can you please tell me what Christian groups believe tha Earth is flat? I find this hard to believe.

 

Firstly, no - I won't tell you and I have a reason for that.

 

Firstly, I'm not going to be able to "teach you", nor am I going to be your pastor or your priest and "guide" you.

 

The only way you're going to believe anything anyone on this fourm tells you is if you go and investigate their claims and "test" what they say.

 

I will give you a hint though - on the world wide web I easily found 3 web sites ran by US based christian groups who believe the world is flat.

 

I suspect that in an hour or so you'll find them too.

 

Go ahead and test my claim.

 

There is a Scripture in Isaiah that says, "He sits above the circle of the Earth."

 

A circle is not a sphere - a circle is two (2) dimensional, a sphre is three (3) dimensional.

 

A circle would look like a plate, not a ball.

 

Have fun.

 

W.

[KT45]

There was only one thing that stuck me as odd when Amy started talking and saying things like "jeepers" and "golly" or here giving people "big hugs!!!". For a second I thought she wasn't genuine and I started to lose a little respect for her. After a while I just felt she was just trying to lighten the mood or the atmosphere. I'm not sure if she was doing this or not but I won't judge her. Her beliefs seem to make her happy and enjoy life. She doesn't seem to condemn people and seems like a overall good person.

 

yeah I know it sounds like I'm nuthugging but I also understand why the people on this forum are the way they are and I talked to her about that. I just like to see it for other peoples point of view.

 

Anyway I understand why she would want to leave. I just want to know if Amy got anything out of this expierence or at least how she sees us now?

 

You got it Taylor! And yes! That's why I was saying words like "Jeepers" and "Golly" because I was trying to lighten things up. It was becoming brutal and answering with anger and insults would have made things worse. Yeah. I could have done that. Would I have gained respect if I had approached the discussion with more anger?

Well you could have answered three ways

1. With anger- all that probably would have happened is that things would get even more heated like you said they would. It would become more personal than winning an argument.

 

2. Trying to lighten the mood - this is what you tried to do. Trying to lighten the mood would be a good idea sometimes but it would be better in a more casual discussion. To me it's like being at a formal debate and then someone starts talking to you as if you were a child. The person talking may have had the best intentions but the other person doesn't feel respected. Depending on your style of debating this can be used to your advantage or against it. To me if you present yourself lightly that's how you will be treated and if your debating that is the last thing you want to be treated like.

 

3. Calm and Unflustered - this is the probably the easiest way to handle it. You don't take anything personally whether you are attacked or you are losing your argument. Some may still get upset that you aren't , getting upset, or they might just be mad just because that is who they are. But you don't let that phase you. It's like boxing, you gotta keep your guard up and don't let your opponent know that somethings bothering you.

 

Anyway it's your life and you handle situations your way. If you want to be tough be tough, if you don't want to be tough and have a light hearted argument do that instead.

[Ouroboros]

Are most of the participants on this forum guys? I think guys deal with issues more forcefully.

It's funny that of the members you found to be "understanding" (me for instance), and Antlerman, and TaylorK are guys, OM I'm not sure. Sorry OM, don't remember your gender!

 

And on another note, OM got a fair share of trial by fire when joining in November last year.

 

We do that to all Christians that come. There's two kinds of members here, the ones that deconverted and the Christians that had to go through a tough initiation process before they are accepted. Those who deconverted are here for the reason that they deconverted and nothing else. While the Christians that come here have to prove themselves much more, of the simple reason that the site wasn't made for Christians to come a evangelize, even though we do allow it to a certain degree in the Lion's Den (when it becomes spam, he/she is banned).

 

Do understand Amy, we didn't make this site for Christians to come and "shoot fish in a barrel". It's not the gathering place so you can come and win souls for your cause. But we do understand if you come and have questions and have a hard time understanding us. So if you look for answers, then we're here. But if you come to spread the gospel, it's a lost cause.

 

Let me tell you why the Gospel is lost on us. Me for instance, I went on mission trips, I evangelized down town cities for years. I knocked on dooors. I helped ministries to reach people in other countries. So what you're doing is nothing more or different than I already done. People praised me for being so blunt and direct as a Christian. I carried a Bible in full view wherever I went. And would pick up a conversation with anyone. Do you think I haven't been where you are right now, or heard the arguments you'll use coming from my own mouth? I got "born again" at the age of 7, and witnessed the first time around that time. I witnessed for all my class mates, and you have to know, that in Sweden most people are atheists or agnostic, so I was the only Christian in a 30 student class. And that's how I grew up. I was in extreme minority. A handful of Christians in a school of thousand students. And I was brave and believed and witnessed. Now do you still think I don't know your arguments or your coming failure of turning anyone around?

 

We might accept you here as a Christian, but your success of getting anyone "saved" here is exactly equal to zero. Just remember that.

 

I think you expected this site to be easy access for you and an easy place to witness, but you can't be further from the truth.

[Sparrow]

This is the best article on the Myth of the Flat Earth Myth. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/history/1997Russell.html It was also posted on Nasa's web site, where I first read it many years ago.

 

It discusses an complete lack of any documents that state this view back in the time of Columbus and back, and that the first occurrence of it in literature happened with Washington Irving in the 1800's. When you consider that any sea-going vessel's mast can be seen going down over an arch on the horizon, it does boggle the mind to think anyone could conceive it as flat.

 

As far as the rotation objection to Galileo, the objection had to do that they could not feel the movement, not that the earth wasn't a ball. The earth was stationary in their views, not necessarily flat.

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

Yes, I'd read that some time ago too as well as a reply to it that contradicted some parts. I tried to quickly find the reply but couldn't.

 

Eitherway, as I originally stated I only disagree in part because quite rightly as the document points out there were some races and civilisations that knew the earth was spherical very early on, at the same time though, it is also true there have been and there still exists some groups (including a number that are Christian) that claim the absolute 100% total infalability of the Bible and that the earth is flat and anything that says differently is a secular conspiracy.

 

Eitherway, thanks for the posting.

 

Sparrow

[Antlerman]

Are most of the participants on this forum guys? I think guys deal with issues more forcefully.

It's funny that of the members you found to be "understanding" (me for instance), and Antlerman, and TaylorK are guys, OM I'm not sure. Sorry OM, don't remember your gender!

 

And on another note, OM got a fair share of trial by fire when joining in November last year.

OM is female. I think on this site it's a pretty fair mix of men and women. Which is an interesting point. In the past I've always noticed that almost all the Christians who came in here to argue beliefs were male, always argumentative and lacking any spiritual sense. And I think that's a part of the difference. Sharing something personal, versus evangelizing and trying to put a notch in their Bibles for their own Ego (capitalized as in a deity they worship).

[Kuroikaze]

It was the same as hansolo for me Amy, I was in a campus ministry for my entire college carrer, I went on summer dicipleship training, mission trips (spent the summer working in calcutta once) I played in the worship band, led bible studies in my dorm room. I got up almost every morning before class to pray for at least two years. I read the bible every day, and even studied greek so I could understand it better.

 

ALL of this was so I could get closer to Jesus. but in the end every new experience, and every new bible study just made me feel more and more out of place and have more and more questions that I couldn't answer.

 

I'm sorry if we all come off as angry, and I'm very sorry if I in particular just came off as an asshole. I, in particular, am dealing with some partiularly sticky personal issues right now that can put me on edge a bit.

 

I also take particular issue with the way the majority of christians deal with certain issues of gender idenety and non-standard sexuality. Don't ask me to explain in detail because I won't

 

I think part of the reason we get angry is because most christians, yourself included, come here thinking its so simple. You think you understand us, and you also think that there aren't any "GOOD" reasons not to believe. I myself spent years agnonizing over the answers to some of these questions, and fought hard to hold onto my beliefs, and in the end admited that I had to move on, because it was NEVER going to work.

 

You see, amy, when you come here and think that you can answer clearly and easily, the questions that plagued us for years about our beliefs...when you think that all it will take is a few posts and we will see the light and return happily to Christs heart,

 

Amy, its patronizing.

 

Its like saying all those years of struggle and questions were useless, and we are obviously dumb for not seeing such obvious answers.

 

I hope this helps you understand better why we seem angry. We aren't bad people, but we have been hurt. And a few phrases of bumper sticker theology is not simply going to make that go away...indeed it makes it worse.

 

I know at several point you said you thought you were being nice and were reciving a lot of hate in return, I hope this helps you understand why it didn't look that way to us

[Lycorth]

I hope this helps you understand better why we seem angry. We aren't bad people, but we have been hurt. And a few phrases of bumper sticker theology is not simply going to make that go away...indeed it makes it worse.

 

Good points, Kuroikaze.

 

Amy, try to keep in mind that we see Jeezus™ differently than you do. That's why I won't even do that myth the honor of proper spelling. Jeezus™ doesn't take away Hell™ and the Devil™ or Sin™ but rather lets all these things continue to exist, and when we fall prey to them, he damns us to Hell™ and washes his hands of it by claiming we sent ourselves there (according to Xian propaganda).

 

You are trying to tell us to believe in a god who doesn't remove the things which lead humans into Sin™ yet condemns us for falling prey to temptation. You're trying to tell us to believe in a god who condemns anyone who doesn't impress him with their fanaticism to a place of infinite torture for finite offenses. You're trying to tell us to believe in a god who sends our loved ones who weren't Xian or weren't Xian enough to scream for all eternity, and a god who sends perfectly righteous and good people who didn't know about Jeezus™ or want to believe in Jeezus™ to be tormented in everlasting agony.

 

amy, that is absolutely disgusting. Any sane person should feel ashamed for telling that to others. We HATE, LOATHE, and DESPISE the god presented in the Holah Babble™ because it is a horrible, demented god, an egomaniac who is obsessed with torture, blood, pain, and death - it is his punishment for all things. It's not love and it's not sweetness or light. There is absolutely NO love in a religion like the one you offer us.

 

That is why you are just wasting your time. Jeezus™ is a devil if there ever was one - if he existed. And no one has ever been able to prove even that.

 

I'll leave you with a quote by a famous author, to whom the following quote about Xianity is attributed. His words sum up the thoughts of myself and many others here perfectly:

 

"Chimerical and empty being, your name alone has caused more blood to flow on the face of the earth than any political war ever will. Return to the nothingness from which the mad hope and ridiculous fright of men dared call you forth to their misfortune. You only appeared as a torment for the human race. What crimes would have been spared the world, if they had choked the first imbecile who thought of speaking of you."

[Fweethawt]

Fwee... how so? The Scriptures speak of many that would become Ex-C's so what's your point?

Oops! I'm sorry. I think I've decided that the bible is true today.

 

My bad...

[♦ nivek ♦]

Amy,

 

I have proof that John Moses Browning is *god*.

 

His works and machines have done more for World Peace and repair of world Community complaints, personal issues and assorted problems that Jesus (of any caliber and type) has ever done.

 

I worship JMB almost every sunday by changing yankee greenbacks into smoke noise and powder residue. He is worthy of my praise and adoration.

 

The tokens of my affection are usually worn in an in side the waistband holster, or in my 'guypurse' fanny pack. Never leave home without my JMB tokens, just not prudent for this fatman to do so.

 

JMB's 'majik' works everytime, on demand, and never has failed me. Unlike Jebus in any of his incarnations.

 

kL

[Asimov]

Amy's entire tone is patronizing.

[Fweethawt]

Amy's entire tone is patronizing.

 

Maybe you're not stupid after all?

 

 

 

 

You see it too, eh?

[Asimov]

You see it too, eh?

 

Oh, I see it alright. I prefer asshole christians to this. It's disgusting.

[duderonomy]

Fwee...

Wha? In the last days, many shall DEPART from the FAITH, giving heed...etc.

But I think I know the verse you were speaking of...in the gospel of John, right?

 

See why there are so many denominations? With the Bible, we can all be right!

 

Moving write along... as I understand it, the Helio/Geo centric views are still up for grabs. All that has ever been empirically proven is relative motion. I think NASA sometimes uses the 'Earth Is The Center Of The Universe' view because the math is easier to work with for launching rockets. But what do I know?

 

Now as for Amy Marie, she makes me feel special...'and sometimes Duderonomy' she writes. I'm like the letter 'Y'. Sometimes I'm a vowel, sometimes I'm not. Sometimes I'm nice to her, sometimes I'm...Amy, what's the opposite of nice to you? Mean? Truthfull?

 

You asked...we answered. Did anyone on your thread 'why the gripe with/about/whatever Jesus' NOT tell you what they believed? Did anyone NOT "speak the truth in love"? Sometimes the truth hurts. Sometimes it doesn't. You have to decide what the truth is, Amy. For you. Not for 'us'. No one can decide what the truth is for someone else in matters of Faith, Religion, or which breakfast cereal should be their favorite, or even if they should skip breakfast altogether.

 

I don't know about any comments you said you recieved that were 'explicit' or dirty or whatever. I'm not saying that you are making this up, I'm just saying that I don't know of them. But so what? Do you have any idea how much bullcrap I've ever heard or seen in Christian Churches? If you are going to judge your experience here on Ex-C according to that, then I'll have to ask you to defend Christian Television, and all that I have heard there.

 

 

 

A lot of the grief you have recieved here is because you can't say you know the truth or that the Bible is true, or whatever, and then expect anyone on a thread called EX-CHRISTIAN.COM to agree with you.

 

Sometimes Amy, I get angry with some here who have bad things to say about the Bible or Jesus, or the Holy Spirit, while admitting that they have never been Christian. So then, I have to ask myself, what the ____ do they know about it? How can their opinions mean anything here? And sometimes, to me, they don't. They have never known Him. They have no business in my humble opinion, to blaspheme the God that bought them, when they have never felt His Spirit in the first place.

 

But Amy, most here are Ex-Christians, and they once felt, thought, believed, and cried just as you do.

When you don't listen to them, when you are the one who walked in here with your eyes wide open, and you come off as knowing all truth... well, you remind them of how they used to be. They know what you feel, because they have felt it.

Why do you always ignore that part?

 

Anyway, Amy. The final truth. There are no cute guys here. Have you seen Han's photo? Baby-face. And how about that Antlerman? Jesus Charist!! (Oh...sorry).

 

Nivec? With that funny Tom Terrific helmet and his penchant for side arms...?

 

Man, how about that one that from the side looks like Freddy Kruger in a better hat?

 

And that rugged Shroud of Turin looking guy Asimov! Aaargghhhh!!!!

But alas, he seems more and more like a girl everyday.

 

Me? I'm not even that good looking! I do have the face of an eighteen year old boy though. And he's gonna be pissed when he gets it back, because I'm getting it all wrinkled.

 

So I have to take the liberty of saying, don't come here for anything else but the truth. Not ours, not yours. Nobody owns the truth. We all own the truth.

 

If you like it here, stay here. If you don't, don't.

 

[Vigile]

They have no business in my humble opinion, to blaspheme the God that bought them, when they have never felt His Spirit in the first place.

 

Is this an attempt at empathy or do you really believe that there is some substance to christianity?

 

I spent the first half of my life in that trap, but if anyone wants to blaspheme an imaginary being it's no sweat off me. Felt his spirit? I felt a lot of contrived emotions that I once interpreted as such, but...

[Antlerman]

Anyway, Amy. The final truth. There are no cute guys here. Have you seen Han's photo? Baby-face. And how about that Antlerman? Jesus Charist!! (Oh...sorry).

What???!! I are pretty! When 18,000 years old are you, this pretty you'll not be!

[pug]

wei wei you forgot about me. i da cutest guy in here. Just observe that flat nosed mug mutt that only a mother could love. sheeessssh so un-appreciative.

 

Never mind, come here, let me give you a good doggy hug. And a good lick if you can spare the time.

[Asuryan]

Never mind, come here, let me give you a good doggy hug. And a good lick if you can spare the time.

 

Maybe I should spread my thighs, a good lick is hard to resist. On the other hand I hate dogs' saliva-dripping tongues.... eh, forget that, pug.

 

Anyway, seems to me that amy has decided to stay with us some more. I'm happy, I'm still eagerly waiting for her answers to the questions she received on the other thread. Or maybe if she wishes a more controlled place to answer and argue, it would be nice to see her in the arena, discussing a specific topic of her choice.

 

What say you, amy? You could sustain the thesis "God is love", that way you'd have just one person answering you, and of course no insulting would be allowed. I'd like to see how you'll perform!

 

By the way: Asimov, I love you more and more with each post you make.

[Sparrow]

Thank you! I apprecaite you being so honest with me. I really like you and I'm beginning to understand why and the way you feel. It's hoakey yes, but I would still like to give you all a big hug.

 

I promise I won't preach at you anymore.

 

The reason why I want to share on a seperate thread about the Resurrection was because people at the peanut gallery seemed to challenge me to do so. And remember, it's only what I believe.

 

Thanks all!

 

You really are a great group.

 

Amy - we're EX christians - we do not believe your God exists. We don't believe Jesus even existed.

 

Thanks for starting to understand though.

 

Also, most people on this forum know the Bible and everything concerning it very, very, very well. It is extremely unlikely that you will "convince" them otherwise.

 

Most of the people here have heard comments like yours, on this very forum as well as elsewhere, many, many, many, many times. What you are saying is not new.

 

Either way. Hae fun.

 

Sparrow

 

I also take particular issue with the way the majority of christians deal with certain issues of gender idenety and non-standard sexuality. Don't ask me to explain in detail because I won't

 

Understand that one, Sister!

[Knightley]

Amy I don't think that you're going to change anyone's minds hon, as much as you may want them to know "truth" or to "know god"....some people just think differently and we've been there, done that. We see how much it sucked, not just intereacting with christians but with christianity itself. I, myself, no longer want a part of it. I think you're fighting a futile battle at these threads. Just worry about doing your own thing, after all each person has to walk their own path.