Is faith and religion a selfish act?

[Ouroboros]

hmmm still not sure we are doing it against our own selfishness ...

 

If you put the cigar out and feel angry - isn't that more foolish than selfish?

 

If you put the cigar out against your desire to keep smoking it for your own smoking pleasure - you are still putting it out to meet a desire - a desire not to get into a fight with the one telling you to put it out. If you put it out because the views of the other person matter to you - you still put it out for selfish reasons - because you will get something you desire from the decision.

 

If you don't put it out coz you feel like a fight - then that's what you've decided is the most desirable thing for you at the time.

 

Wisdom comes from understanding our desires and taking the actions we know we'll feel OK with - as in there is no point getting angry over the decision to stub out the cigar because although our desire for the cigar has been thwarted by another's wish for a smoke free environment, we should recognise that we have something we desire more than the smoke (the appreciation of the other/ the happiness of the other/ the absence of the fight) ....

 

Blimey - I bet you wish you'd never offered ... (the cigar) ...

 

Wow! That was good, very good. I hope your fingers didn't get tangled when you wrote that!

 

So now the question is... how can this knowledge really help us in our daily life? Can we break free? Is there a "salvation" from selfishness?

 

I was thinking earlier, even Buddhist monks, trying to ridding themselves from the Ego, don't they do this because it's the right thing to do and then it's fulfilling their own beliefs? So can anyone really break free, or we just have to accept this, because that’s the way it’s supposed to be?

 

Or maybe we shouldn’t see this as a bad thing, but it’s just a law of nature, and without it we wouldn’t be human? Hmm. Do animals work the same way? Is instinct based on selfishness? Man … can I ever stop asking all these questions?

[Amethyst]

I think it depends on the person. In my case, I was raised in it. It was "Mom & Dad said it was true, and all of my friends/relatives believe, so it must be true." I didn't have a choice when I was younger.

 

Then as I got older, I began to question, but due to the fact that I had a fundamentalist mother and she had cancer for several years before she died, I didn't feel like I could stop believing or I would let her down. By high school, I was no longer a fundie, but I still believed that Jesus was real, even if his people did things he said not to. By college, I'd lost most of my faith, although I tried going to churches, but couldn't find any I liked. I tried liberal Christianity to make my family happy, but that didn't work for very long because I believed that the Bible was a myth by then.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Hey, Han Solo! I'm just ducking in under the topic of the thread to ask, are you a cigar smoker? One of my pleasures. Lately alongside the usual brands I've been partial to Por Larranaga, Upman Vintage Cameroon Reserve. A fave I hardly ever see is a Don Rene Churchill. If I'd died while smoking one looking over the sunset in Cyprus with Mozart playing in background, it wouldn't have been a bad death.

 

cheers

[Ouroboros]

Hey, Han Solo!  I'm just ducking in under the topic of the thread to ask, are you a cigar smoker?  One of my pleasures.  Lately alongside the usual brands I've been partial to Por Larranaga, Upman Vintage Cameroon Reserve.  A fave I hardly ever see is a Don Rene Churchill.  If I'd died while smoking one looking over the sunset in Cyprus with Mozart playing in background, it wouldn't have been a bad death.

 

cheers

 

Oh, Yes! I'm a big cigar smoker! Cool someone else here, a friend, a like-minded!

 

Por Larranga is very nice, got a little bite to it, but full of intriguing flavors.

 

Upman Vintage, I had that, but I’m not sure I had the Cameroon.

Upman can have some surprises sometimes, that one or two doesn’t taste as much.

But when you get a good one, then they’re beautiful.

 

Don Rene Churchill, never had that one.

 

Agree to you statement there.

 

I spend some time on our deck, with overview Riley’s Wild park, drinking a glass of wine or have just a beer, a good cigar and I can’t ask for more.

 

My recommendation, if you can afford it, and if you can find it, is St Dupont. Robusto or the Torpedo. Very consistent in qualify and taste. The only bad side is that it doesn’t burn even all the time. But you feel like a million dollars when you smoke it.

 

I will start a thread right now. Ok, and we can share ideas and tips.

[Alice]

Wow! That was good, very good. I hope your fingers didn't get tangled when you wrote that!

 

So now the question is... how can this knowledge really help us in our daily life? Can we break free? Is there a "salvation" from selfishness?

 

I was thinking earlier, even Buddhist monks, trying to ridding themselves from the Ego, don't they do this because it's the right thing to do and then it's fulfilling their own beliefs? So can anyone really break free, or we just have to accept this, because that’s the way it’s supposed to be?

 

Or maybe we shouldn’t see this as a bad thing, but it’s just a law of nature, and without it we wouldn’t be human? Hmm. Do animals work the same way? Is instinct based on selfishness? Man … can I ever stop asking all these questions?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Whilst I didn't get my fingers tangled typing this - I did get my knickers in a twist when I was first challenged to start thinking in this way.

 

My responses to terms like 'selfish' or 'self centered' were (and are still sometimes) fuelled by such negative emotions. Like the WORST thing someone could say to me was 'you are selfish'. Somewhere along the line 'selfish' has gotten muddled up with unkind/thoughtless/insensitive. I guess 'christian' teaching has been partly responsible for this.

 

But it doesn't have to be that way - I selfishly strive to be kind thoughtful and sensitive (and to pick myself up again when I fall off my own pedestal!!)

 

I think I have learned that the things I want to break free from are - resentment / bitterness/ persistent anger - and these are all 'evils' - that seem to me crop up when we don't 'serve' our little ego god and put him/her first.

 

There see - I've just spoiled it all now by describing it in that way ... no one wants to be thought of as a self serving and egotistical.

 

I started to leave the church with this thought - I will hold onto all the things I think are great about the teaching I've been given - I will continue to try and be kind and thoughtful and loving. When I first came up against all this 'Self rules!' stuff I was appalled - 'that's not for me - selfishness sucks' I thought - 'I don't want to be mean spirited and harsh and stop thinking about others ....'

 

Then I stepped back and looked at what I'd been thinking. And realised just how selfish all my 'noble' intentions really are. (Just look at all those 'I wants' and 'I will's!)

 

Whilst I love the freedom from resentment that this approach now gives me (... everytime I feel a twinge of resentment over something I find myself doing that in of itself isn't a great thing to be doing, and might seem to the outside world to be a pretty selfless act - I remind myself of the reason behind it - that somewhere along the line there is a consequence from completeing the task that makes me very happy and .... all the resentment melts away)

 

I think that animals are probably driven in the same way to 'please themselves' - but they seem to accept this without the guilt.

 

Questions are great! Freedom from the answers has been the best thing for me - in terms of stepping gingerly away from the church porch.

 

(I have no confidence whatsoever that this self serving thing would work for society as a whole - only for nice peeps like me!)

[spamandham]

So now the question is... how can this knowledge really help us in our daily life? Can we break free? Is there a "salvation" from selfishness?

 

Those who act truly unselfishly, i.e. with no motive whatsoever, are deemed to be insane.

 

I don't see anything wrong with being intelligently selfish.

[Ouroboros]

Whilst I didn't get my fingers tangled typing this - I did get my knickers in a twist when I was first challenged to start thinking in this way.

 

I think that’s a good thing. Thinking is good.

 

My responses to terms like 'selfish' or 'self centered' were (and are still sometimes) fuelled by such negative emotions. Like the WORST thing someone could say to me was 'you are selfish'. Somewhere along the line 'selfish' has gotten muddled up with unkind/thoughtless/insensitive. I guess 'christian' teaching has been partly responsible for this.

 

Well, that’s the thing. Maybe selfishness isn’t bad or good, it just has to be used the right way.

 

But it doesn't have to be that way - I selfishly strive to be kind thoughtful and sensitive (and to pick myself up again when I fall off my own pedestal!!)

 

I think I have learned that the things I want to break free from are - resentment / bitterness/ persistent anger - and these are all 'evils' - that seem to me crop up when we don't 'serve' our little ego god and put him/her first.

 

There see - I've just spoiled it all now by describing it in that way ... no one wants to be thought of as a self serving and egotistical.

 

I started to leave the church with this thought - I will hold onto all the things I think are great about the teaching I've been given - I will continue to try and be kind and thoughtful and loving. When I first came up against all this 'Self rules!' stuff I was appalled - 'that's not for me - selfishness sucks' I thought - 'I don't want to be mean spirited and harsh and stop thinking about others ....'

 

Then I stepped back and looked at what I'd been thinking. And realised just how selfish all my 'noble' intentions really are. (Just look at all those 'I wants' and 'I will's!)

 

Whilst I love the freedom from resentment that this approach now gives me (... everytime I feel a twinge of resentment over something I find myself doing that in of itself isn't a great thing to be doing, and might seem to the outside world to be a pretty selfless act - I remind myself of the reason behind it - that somewhere along the line there is a consequence from completeing the task that makes me very happy and .... all the resentment melts away)

 

I think that animals are probably driven in the same way to 'please themselves' - but they seem to accept this without the guilt.

 

Questions are great! Freedom from the answers has been the best thing for me - in terms of stepping gingerly away from the church porch.

 

(I have no confidence whatsoever that this self serving thing would work for society as a whole - only for nice peeps like me!)

 

I think the key is, that we can’t avoid being selfish, so the trick is to use selfishness in the right way. If the result is for the benefit for more people than just me, that would be the right definition of altruism. I will gain, but someone else will gain too, that’s unselfishness at its best.

 

So, don’t beat you up now because of this realization, the move now is to act within this knowledge. It’s new to me too. I knew about where I wanted to say with this thread, but it’s gone further than that, and I understand that as a human to truly love people around me, the golden rule actually says it right: “Love your neighbor as yourself”. You can’t love someone more than yourself, but the best you can do is to love up to how much you love yourself.

[Ouroboros]

Those who act truly unselfishly, i.e. with no motive whatsoever, are deemed to be insane. 

 

True, maybe they looser their self identity and self awareness?

 

I don't see anything wrong with being intelligently selfish.

 

I think you're right. It's not wrong to be selfish, it's just how you use it in the whole picture.

 

For instance, if you are shortsighted and act selfish, you can hurt people, and eventually you could destroy your life. So to be truly selfish, you should act for the long term, what you will get at the end and you might act against your temporary need just to gain something bigger at the end.

 

That's kind of what religion is trying to force us to, by giving us goal after death. Unfortunately it's a lost cause, and a empty promise, so the true goal should be in the current life.

 

A sample is in order; when I have a fight with my wife and think she's crazy and wrong, I might let her have her way anyway, just because I want to keep my marriage together. And why would I want that? Because I look into the future, when I'm old, I want to have someone that is my friend and companion still around. So ultimately, it's still selfish, but for the bigger picture.

[Alice]

For instance, if you are shortsighted and act selfish, you can hurt people, and eventually you could destroy your life. So to be truly selfish, you should act for the long term, what you will get at the end and you might act against your temporary need just to gain something bigger at the end.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I guess that's the way this should work for wider society - having compassion and giving thought to the welfare of others - even those outside of our sphere of affection - makes for a better society - and therefore in the long term is 'intelligently selfish'.

 

I've been thinking about this a lot - in terms of my fear of 'selfishness' - like I have this fear that other people might be 'unintelligently selfish' (people that might think if selfishness rules then its OK to steal or hurt others - if it brings them pleasure)

 

I guess I used to think that the 'codes' of behaviour within religions provided some sort of encouragement or reasoning for not harming others - I did kind of accept that religion = morality and again this had been something I've had to face up to as simply not being true. (ie just as many lovely people outside church as in it - just as many meanspirited peeps inside as out)

 

I first came across the 'selfishness' thing in the writings of Ayn Rand. I am far from being a fan in the classic sense (in fact, I have never been filled with such an urge to slap an author methinks - but I like that - a chain of thought that gets me feeling angry can teach me more than one I just agree with I think!)

 

(I still don't like her)

[Ouroboros]

I guess that's the way this should work for wider society - having compassion and giving thought to the welfare of others - even those outside of our sphere of affection - makes for a better society - and therefore in the long term is 'intelligently selfish'.

 

I've been thinking about this a lot - in terms of my fear of 'selfishness' - like I have this fear that other people might be 'unintelligently selfish' (people that might think if selfishness rules then its OK to steal or hurt others - if it brings them pleasure)

 

I guess I used to think that the 'codes' of behaviour within religions provided some sort of encouragement or reasoning for not harming others - I did kind of accept that religion = morality and again this had been something I've had to face up to as simply not being true. (ie just as many lovely people outside church as in it - just as many meanspirited peeps inside as out)

 

I first came across the 'selfishness' thing in the writings of Ayn Rand. I am far from being a fan in the classic sense (in fact, I have never been filled with such an urge to slap an author methinks - but I like that - a chain of thought that gets me feeling angry can teach me more than one I just agree with I think!)

 

(I still don't like her)

 

I’m not sure that the un-intelligent selfish necessarily is totally un-intelligent; it’s more of un-informed, ignorant or just shortsighted selfishness.

 

Did you ever see the movie “A Beautiful Mind”, about the Nobel Prize winner that was schizophrenic; hearing and seeing people?

 

The theory in Economics that he came up with is actually quite similar in the essence of this. Instead of the “One Winner Game”, we have an “All Win Game”. I’m not sure how his postulate is stated, and I’m not sure how to describe the theory, but I remember very clearly the situation in the movie when he saw what it was.

 

They were in a group, couple of guys, in a bar.

A beautiful lady comes in, and a couple of ok looking girls.

They all wanted to date the one-beautiful girl. But who would win? Only one can win.

But if they all tried to get a date with the regular girls, they all could win.

 

This is the essence of moral selfishness. What will we all gain from in the long term?

 

Should I read Ayn Rand? Is it still something worth reading?

[Alice]

I’m not sure that the un-intelligent selfish necessarily is totally un-intelligent; it’s more of un-informed, ignorant or just shortsighted selfishness.

 

Did you ever see the movie “A Beautiful Mind”, about the Nobel Prize winner that was schizophrenic; hearing and seeing people?

 

The theory in Economics that he came up with is actually quite similar in the essence of this. Instead of the “One Winner Game”, we have an “All Win Game”. I’m not sure how his postulate is stated, and I’m not sure how to describe the theory, but I remember very clearly the situation in the movie when he saw what it was.

 

They were in a group, couple of guys, in a bar.

A beautiful lady comes in, and a couple of ok looking girls.

They all wanted to date the one-beautiful girl. But who would win? Only one can win.

But if they all tried to get a date with the regular girls, they all could win.

 

This is the essence of moral selfishness. What will we all gain from in the long term?

 

Should I read Ayn Rand? Is it still something worth reading?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Other things about the bar scene stand out in my mind (maybe its not as beautiful as I like to think!)

 

Ayn Rand - I thought she was compulsary for every American? IMO - she's worth a read if you want to tackle some of the selfishness stuff (she takes it way further than I would ever be comfortable with - referring to altruism as evil) Her philosophy is played out in her two main novels.

 

I also read some biography's - she has a mixed bag of followers - some absolute devotees (look at amazon for the number of comments on 'the fountainhead' and some websites dedicated to her 'teaching'. I find these quite funny however - she is an advocate of the importance of the individual - and one of the sites runs this poll when you can say which of her characters you think you are most like ... makes me chuckle anyway)

 

She has a following of ex-Ayn Randers as well who couch their time with her as cultish.

 

I love the written word so I considered it worth while to have ploughed through the whole of the fountainhead for a single brilliant line .... (I won't tell you the line - no one else EVER thinks it brilliant - it would be such a let down if I told you)

[Ouroboros]

Ayn Rand - I thought she was compulsary for every American? IMO - she's worth a read if you want to tackle some of the selfishness stuff (she takes it way further than I would ever be comfortable with - referring to altruism as evil) Her philosophy is played out in her two main novels.

 

I’m an immigrant, so I probably don’t count as a true American yet. But I really like it here, and I think that we, the people from Europe, have a very limited understanding of the people here.

 

And there are so many authors and thinkers out there, and I don’t know anything about Ayn Rand.

 

Yeah, taking Altruism to the level of Evil, that would be to take it too far.

 

That’s why I find this “Rule of Acting for the Common Good”, or the golden rule, is important. Just because I can see how you can do it and still feed the ego.

 

It’s like when you fly, and they tell you about the air-masks. “First put it on you, then on your child.” You have to act for your ego, so you can act for the others. The win-win situation is kind of a moral guideline. You know what to do if you can find the action that will create the largest win for everyone. Because acting like that, that’s how you will win for the long run.

[Alice]

I’m an immigrant, so I probably don’t count as a true American yet. But I really like it here, and I think that we, the people from Europe, have a very limited understanding of the people here.

 

And there are so many authors and thinkers out there, and I don’t know anything about Ayn Rand.

 

Yeah, taking Altruism to the level of Evil, that would be to take it too far.

 

That’s why I find this “Rule of Acting for the Common Good”, or the golden rule, is important. Just because I can see how you can do it and still feed the ego.

 

It’s like when you fly, and they tell you about the air-masks. “First put it on you, then on your child.” You have to act for your ego, so you can act for the others. The win-win situation is kind of a moral guideline. You know what to do if you can find the action that will create the largest win for everyone. Because acting like that, that’s how you will win for the long run.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ms Rand was an immigrant to the states - from Russia. She loved the American emphasis on liberty and personal freedom. The philosophy she developed is called Objectivism (I think).

 

I like that she developed her idea's through story telling. I did throw the fountain head book across the room a few times - but I think that's good thing ... to have a strong emotional reaction to a book and then work out why.

[I Broke Free]

When one carries around the mindset that hell is a real place to be avoided, that humanity is doomed from the starting gate and that the Earth is disposable and will be remade anew; is there any other way to act than selfishly?

[Alice]

When one carries around the mindset that hell is a real place to be avoided, that humanity is doomed from the starting gate and that the Earth is disposable and will be remade anew; is there any other way to act than selfishly? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Its strange how people can have such different takes on the same thing. Ayn Rand was opposed to christian teaching primarily because she thought it promoted self sacrifice (well that's my understanding on her take on christianity anyway!)

[Ouroboros]

Its strange how people can have such different takes on the same thing.  Ayn Rand was opposed to christian teaching primarily because she thought it promoted self sacrifice (well that's my understanding on her take on christianity anyway!)

 

Ok, and still the self sacrifice meant a reward at the end: going to heaven.

 

So I don't see a difference in egoism as an atheist or a theist. It is our ego still that drives it.

 

It sounds like Ayn Rand only saw it to a certain level, while I think it's all so much deeper. The Ego is You.

 

When one carries around the mindset that hell is a real place to be avoided, that humanity is doomed from the starting gate and that the Earth is disposable and will be remade anew; is there any other way to act than selfishly? 

 

I don't think there is. Love yourself first, before you can learn how to love others. And you can never love anyone more than yourself.

[Alice]

Ok, and still the self sacrifice meant a reward at the end: going to heaven.

 

So I don't see a difference in egoism as an atheist or a theist. It is our ego still that drives it.

 

It sounds like Ayn Rand only saw it to a certain level, while I think it's all so much deeper. The Ego is You.

 

well - for Ayn Rand I think she thought concepts like an afterlife were a load of bunkum - so she wouldn't have recognised any long term gain! and I think she gave short shrift to any sort of 'self sacrifice' for the sake of others so that they might appreciate the sacrifice and reward us in some way.

 

I don't think she can be easily summarised - i think it's probably necessary to engage with the characters in one of her novels before its possible to get your head around her philosophy.

[Ouroboros]

I have to add something to all that we said.

 

A true Christian, should pray to God and ask him:

"God send me to hell, but save my <family member, friend, etc>"

 

Because that would be the Complete and Full Sacrifice.

 

To be willing to take eternal punishment (that is more than Jesus, he only did it for 3 days), just so someone else would go to heaven.

 

That's Complete and True Altruism.

 

But do you ever hear that? No!

 

It's more this way: "I'm going to heaven, nahnahnah, nahnah, nah!"

[Alice]

I have to add something to all that we said.

 

A true Christian, should pray to God and ask him:

"God send me to hell, but save my <family member, friend, etc>"

 

Because that would be the Complete and Full Sacrifice.

 

To be willing to take eternal punishment (that is more than Jesus, he only did it for 3 days), just so someone else would go to heaven.

 

That's Complete and True Altruism.

 

But do you ever hear that? No!

 

It's more this way: "I'm going to heaven, nahnahnah, nahnah, nah!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I did used to feel that way sometimes though - as a parent ... that I would do anything to protect my children - to keep them safe. By the time I had my kids I'd already abandoned any belief in somekind of literal everlasting hell, I don't know how I would have coped if I had ever believed this as an adult. I don't regard myself as particularly selfless but when it comes to my kids - that's different, its instinctual - I really feel for people who believe in hell and who fear that so many of their loved ones are headed there ....

 

their lives must be hell ...