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In my neck of the woods I’m the only one of my friends or family that has bothered to read the entire bible and study the history, political or otherwise, of its creation. Most all of my friends are Atheists or Agnostics, but only because of indifference, not because they were force fed xtianity from birth and had to claw their way out, like I did. Couple this with the fact I happen to live in an area with a high percentage of fundies, and you can understand why I would have felt somewhat alone in my quest for reality.

 

Then I found this site, and after 15 years I felt like I belonged somewhere. I lurked for awhile and was really excited about what I was reading and, more importantly, learning. Reading different viewpoints and de-conversion stories have been so gratifying to me these past few months, reassuring me that I am on the right path in my search for truth, and I thank all of you for that. But some of you here are really no different than the xtian fundies I have tried so hard to distance myself from, you have only switched teams.

 

I first noticed it in my thread about propagating the Santa myth to children and if it is harmful. I meant the thread to discuss specifically lying to children, and if it is damaging, yet some of you here just would not let go of “Santa” specifically, instead of discussing the lying which is what I wanted the discussion to be about. This thread got very nasty rather quick, and I refrained from commenting in it because it was not headed where I intended it to, despite my efforts to bring it back on track.

 

Then I just recently tried to correct someone about the protein requirements of the human body and was told I was a “hypocrite”, was “too tense” and to “Go eat a salad”. THIS is Freethought? THIS is what an open mind is? I even stated that I was only discussing PROTIEN and not trying to push a vegetarian diet, but I still was belittled.

 

I am not trying to say all of you here are like this; in fact most of you are quite respectful. I just thought I’d mention my misgivings of late, and how I thought that the only ignorant statements would be coming from xtians, and the only belittling would be directed at those same ignorant xtians, and not a fellow Atheist that happens to have a different diet or attitude towards lying to children.

 

I guess some people just have to be right, no matter what. Maybe it’s not that kind of thinking is a product of religion, but religion is a product of that type of mind?

 

Thanks to all of you, but I doubt I’ll be stopping by here anymore.

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I posted something similar to this just this morning. I only hope people will pay attention as this site can provide good discussion when pointless commenting and close-minded thinking don't enter the picture.

 

I hope you'll stay, but I understand if you don't.

 

Maybe the site monitors or whatever they are called can look at the posts more carefully and not allow these displays of intolerance.

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So, if I understand right, for all fairness for everyone to say whatever they want we should make sure that some people can't say whatever they want?

 

Freedom of speech by censorship?

 

The purpose of this site wasn't to discuss and debate for an understanding between ideologies, but its purpose is to be a landing zone for the hurt, injured, disappointed person that just left the Christian faith. We don't want this site to become a place full of laws, restrictions and rules that everyone have to abide to. We want this site minimally moderated. We have some/few rules, and the rest is pretty much up to every member to sort out.

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So, if I understand right, for all fairness for everyone to say whatever they want we should make sure that some people can't say whatever they want?

 

Freedom of speech by censorship?

 

The purpose of this site wasn't to discuss and debate for an understanding between ideologies, but its purpose is to be a landing zone for the hurt, injured, disappointed person that just left the Christian faith. We don't want this site to become a place full of laws, restrictions and rules that everyone have to abide to. We want this site minimally moderated. We have some/few rules, and the rest is pretty much up to every member to sort out.

 

And that's why it get's my $2 every month. (Hey big spender... ...uh sorry)

 

Sorry to see you go though Marty. Enjoyed having you around.

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I was simply suggesting that people act respectfully of others. I didn't think that would be too much to ask or would be making any rules. I think you should be free to say what you want and you should continue to. I was making a suggestion, that could be taken or not, that individuals consider their own actions/comments so as not to be intolerant (since this is something we have ALL encountered and have been hurt by).

 

But you can say what you want...I'm all for it. I certainly want to be able to say what I want as well.

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Well, you did say the moderators should disallow display of intolerance. And that sounded like censorship to me. But you're right. In the Colosseum, we shouldn't allow sidetracking, ad-homs, or foul language, and I'll try to remember to remind people next time. Okay?

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Hey, every group has assholes. It's not the exclusive property of any particular religion or social group.

 

Should people be more courteous? I'm sure it couldn't hurt. Should be people be more courteous by censoring themselves? I would say no. For me, it's far more important here to have a free exchange of ideas than to worry if my opinion is offensive to others...

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Then I just recently tried to correct someone about the protein requirements of the human body and was told I was a “hypocrite”, was “too tense” and to “Go eat a salad”. THIS is Freethought? THIS is what an open mind is? I even stated that I was only discussing PROTIEN and not trying to push a vegetarian diet, but I still was belittled.

 

I think that was me, and I think you need to either grow some balls or realise that not everyone here is serious all the time, dude.

 

Maybe the site monitors or whatever they are called can look at the posts more carefully and not allow these displays of intolerance.

 

Fuck that.

 

Well, you did say the moderators should disallow display of intolerance. And that sounded like censorship to me. But you're right. In the Colosseum, we shouldn't allow sidetracking, ad-homs, or foul language, and I'll try to remember to remind people next time. Okay?

 

Shouldn't the Colosseum be for debate specifically, though? If someone posts some bullshit and isn't even interested in debate, then it really isn't in the proper place.

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Well, you did say the moderators should disallow display of intolerance. And that sounded like censorship to me. But you're right. In the Colosseum, we shouldn't allow sidetracking, ad-homs, or foul language, and I'll try to remember to remind people next time. Okay?

 

Shouldn't the Colosseum be for debate specifically, though? If someone posts some bullshit and isn't even interested in debate, then it really isn't in the proper place.

Exactly. We do tend to go out on tangents and not keep to the topic even in the Colosseum (and I'm just as much a sinner). I just need to keep an eye on when it happens and remind people about the topic. And also it doesn't allow personal attacks in the Colosseum (IIRC). But I know we do this all the time, and I'm not saying we're going to have zero tolerance regulation, but just that when it happens, I have to just give a little nudge for the participants. :)

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Exactly. We do tend to go out on tangents and not keep to the topic even in the Colosseum (and I'm just as much a sinner). I just need to keep an eye on when it happens and remind people about the topic. And also it doesn't allow personal attacks in the Colosseum (IIRC). But I know we do this all the time, and I'm not saying we're going to have zero tolerance regulation, but just that when it happens, I have to just give a little nudge for the participants. :)

 

Of course, and I'm very guilty of it.

 

Specifically, I don't think Amy Marie's thread is Colosseum material.

 

1) No debate.

2) She's not even discussing.

3) She's evangelizing.

 

She's admitted that her thread isn't for debate. Ergo, it's inappropriate.

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I see your point. (Are we talking about the first topic, or the new one, btw?)

 

Of course, no evangelizing in Col. But on the other hand, she's bringing up the questions to compare mythological Jesus and physical Jesus. And as long as we can argue and post our rebuttals etc, we're in a debate. And of course she has no right to demand anyone to not come with any counter arguments. And her argument "I'm hurt and sad" isn't an argument either. So the first topic, definitely belongs in Lion's Den. The new one, so far, is more of a "debate", or hopefully beginning to one.

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What the hell is all this talk about censorship? This thread has been seriously side-tracked from the topic set in the first post.

 

FWIW, I think Marty makes a very good point. It seems to me that a lot of fundamentalists will deconvert and throw themselves onto the first thing they find--generally radical materialist atheism--and continue to belittle those they disagree with. One would think that realizing one is so incredibly wrong about something would lead one to be a bit more cautious and understanding of those who think differently than they do, but apparently this is not always the case.

 

Though, I really don't think that "censorship" is necessarily a bad thing in a case like this. If by your words you are dragging down the community, then the community is well within its rights to take steps to make you stop.

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no...switching teams, but still human.

 

Then I found this site, and after 15 years I felt like I belonged somewhere. I lurked for awhile and was really excited about what I was reading and, more importantly, learning. Reading different viewpoints and de-conversion stories have been so gratifying to me these past few months, reassuring me that I am on the right path in my search for truth, and I thank all of you for that.

 

So...let me see if I have this right. You havent felt like you have fit in anywhere for 15 years until you found this site...but because a few people that attend this site said something offensive you are now leaving? I am seriously not trying to be mean when I say this, but I think I might know why you have had trouble with not fitting in anywhere.

 

You cant put everyone into one large group...that is something the Christians do(get it, haha). Seriously though, if you had problems with Christianity and you walked away then that is terrific, but you cant expect to find some kind of perfect group of people simply because they also walked away. Christian or not, we are all humans and among us there will be the same personality types.

 

You cant label every single bad trait that the Christians you knew had as "Christian traits", if that makes any sense. I walked away from Christianity because of the religion itself. I hate Christianity, but I dont hate Christians. You can take 50 of each Christians, Atheists, Hindu, etc and you are going to find the same personality traits.

 

So, basically what I am saying is that the "Ex-Christians" here arent acting like "Fundies", they are acting like human beings in the 21st century. The only difference is beliefs. Please dont think for a second that you are going to find a perfect group of individuals anywhere...with or without religion.

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I see your point. (Are we talking about the first topic, or the new one, btw?)

 

Of course, no evangelizing in Col. But on the other hand, she's bringing up the questions to compare mythological Jesus and physical Jesus. And as long as we can argue and post our rebuttals etc, we're in a debate. And of course she has no right to demand anyone to not come with any counter arguments. And her argument "I'm hurt and sad" isn't an argument either. So the first topic, definitely belongs in Lion's Den. The new one, so far, is more of a "debate", or hopefully beginning to one.

 

I was talking about the new one...and since Amy appears at least partially willing to step up to the plate I have jumped in with my little blurb.

 

You guys say you wanted something more civil.

 

I still don't think she has any right to be posting in the Colosseum with her topic, especially since she lacks intellectual honesty, the ability to evne minutely research her arguments and her lack of actual response.

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You cant put everyone into one large group...that is something the Christians do(get it, haha). Seriously though, if you had problems with Christianity and you walked away then that is terrific, but you cant expect to find some kind of perfect group of people simply because they also walked away. Christian or not, we are all humans and among us there will be the same personality types.

 

You cant label every single bad trait that the Christians you knew had as "Christian traits", if that makes any sense. I walked away from Christianity because of the religion itself. I hate Christianity, but I dont hate Christians. You can take 50 of each Christians, Atheists, Hindu, etc and you are going to find the same personality traits.

 

So, basically what I am saying is that the "Ex-Christians" here arent acting like "Fundies", they are acting like human beings in the 21st century. The only difference is beliefs. Please dont think for a second that you are going to find a perfect group of individuals anywhere...with or without religion.

 

Agreed. Everyone has different personalities. Not everyone gets along with each other. That's what the ignore button is for (and I really wish there was one in real life sometimes). If you're really looking for a smaller selection of personalities, you're probably better off in a chat room or a support group in real life. This is a large site with many different people.

 

Fundyism isn't limited to Christians by any means, but if you find that someone is being a jerk, just ignore them.

 

 

 

I still don't think she has any right to be posting in the Colosseum with her topic, especially since she lacks intellectual honesty, the ability to evne minutely research her arguments and her lack of actual response.[/b]

 

Maybe she'll learn from the experience.

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I think that was me, and I think you need to either grow some balls or realise that not everyone here is serious all the time, dude.

 

Yea, see, this is what I mean, now I need to grow some balls?!?!?! Asimov, what the fuck did I ever say to you for you to have this hositility twords me? You insult me for absoultly no reason and then get mad that I took offense to your insult? All I did was try to add a little info into a thread that wasn't even directed at you, yet you feel the need to belittle me in every one of my following posts? Yes, you're correct, you inspired me to start this thread.

 

 

Then I found this site, and after 15 years I felt like I belonged somewhere. I lurked for awhile and was really excited about what I was reading and, more importantly, learning. Reading different viewpoints and de-conversion stories have been so gratifying to me these past few months, reassuring me that I am on the right path in my search for truth, and I thank all of you for that.

 

 

I meant that since my family is still xtian, and I live in a heavily populated fundie area, that I had finally found a place where ideas can be discussed openly without fear of insults, belittling, or any other xtian tactic to try and break down the self image of a non-believer. When I de-converted, I made sure I didn't become a "fundie Atheist", and it can still be hard at times. But I will ALWAYS be respectful of someone's opinion if it came from research and heartfelt searching, whether I agree with them or not. I have not seen everyone on this site behave in this manner.

 

Which is fine, I understand that some people are like that. And I am not for any form of censorship either. But no one even rebukes those who belittle for no reason, and some, like Asimov, are respected members of this forum, and so it gives the whole site a feel that this behavior is normal and OK to people who are new here, like myself. I'm not saying he should be kicked off or blocked out or anything like that, but when people start hurling insults that have nothing to do with the thread topic, and no one says anything, it makes you start to wonder just how open minded the comunity really is.

 

And even this thread is getting off topic! I've said my peace, and I'd like to thank everyone who responded to this respectfully. I'm sure I won't completely leave this site, it is too valuable of a resourse. But the events of the past week are very eye opening to me and have given me some food for thought. Maybe I should get off my ass, away from the computer, and go do something actually productive, rather than sit around and "preach to the choir"! :wicked:

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Then I just recently tried to correct someone about the protein requirements of the human body and was told I was a “hypocrite”, was “too tense” and to “Go eat a salad”. THIS is Freethought? THIS is what an open mind is? I even stated that I was only discussing PROTIEN and not trying to push a vegetarian diet, but I still was belittled.

 

Marty - Did it ever occur to you that you should just tell that person to kiss your ass - and then move on?

 

I guess I don't get this mentality that says everyone needs to just be nice.

 

What is this? Kindergarten?

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Like Asimov says criticism helps us grow as people, and I agree. I see the people here that you speak of as giving a reality check. Seeing others points of view, other than my own, helps to weigh and sort though my own thought process.

 

It's not just against Christians as you point out. If you say something that even is agreed with, you need to be able to back up what you say. We don't take anything at face value here, even if we agree with it. It is part of the intellectual challenge that makes this board unique.

 

If I say something that someone thinks is bullshit, I know someone is going to tell me that. I don't take it personally, I take it as another way of looking at my opinoins and it's a reality check. I have to back up what I have to say, and why I'm saying it.

 

Some personalities are not touchy feely, and that's all right. We are a mix here and that's why I enjoy this place so much. I get other ways of looking at life that isn't possible any where else.

 

Another thing is that we are limited by reading others thoughts and not getting all the nuances and non-verbal cues that a face-to-face discussion gives. We are very much handicapped in that respect.

 

Taph

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Yea, see, this is what I mean, now I need to grow some balls?!?!?! Asimov, what the fuck did I ever say to you for you to have this hositility twords me? You insult me for absoultly no reason and then get mad that I took offense to your insult? All I did was try to add a little info into a thread that wasn't even directed at you, yet you feel the need to belittle me in every one of my following posts? Yes, you're correct, you inspired me to start this thread.

 

Get mad? You're the one who's freakin out, dude. You're also proving my point.

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Marty,

 

I don't mean to sound harsh, but you either have low self esteem or you are used to people kissing your ass. Asimov is not insulting you. If he did actually insult you, you'd be a puddle on the floor. He can cut to the bone with surgical precision.

 

Taph

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Marty,

 

I don't mean to sound harsh, but you either have low self esteem or you are used to people kissing your ass. Asimov is not insulting you. If he did actually insult you, you'd be a puddle on the floor. He can cut to the bone with surgical precision.

 

Taph

 

heh...yes, which is why i totally love asimov.

 

:wub:

 

I'm really a nice guy....I'm just intolerant.

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I'm really a nice guy....I'm just intolerant.

 

I know you are a nice guy. I think you are very intellegent and you are very logical. Some people can't tell the difference between a logical response and an insult. You don't sugar coat your intollerance. You expect adults to be grown ups.

 

Taph

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Ya know, it's Saturday night and that's allright for fighting, so I'm sticking my nose in here.

(I'm also half-crocked and only stumbled into this thread, so don't expect me back on this one).

 

Marty, you are no longer a fundie, but you are surrounded by fundies. You are the path to deconversion, or you are already there. Either way, you won't have Jesus to cry to anymore. Once you leave Him, you're fucked, son. And His church will treat you the same way, unless there is a dollar in it for them.

 

IMHO, you are really touchy. Someone once told me that I was 'too sensitive for this world', and she was right, although it cut me to the quick at the time.

 

You have no Church, no Bible, no 'Devil made me do it', no Psalm 23, nobody to pray to in the night, and even if you're fundie family does, you either know it won't do any good or you haven't really deconverted.

 

As you get more into the fact that you are on your own---as far as we know---the more you will look at these posts here and realise that 'speaking the truth in love' really is a good idea, and that's what you get here 99% of the time.

 

Until the wounds heal from what Christianity did to you, and you 'mature' in the real world (I'm still going through that), you will find that being tough is OK.

 

So yeah, grow some balls.

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