Why Should I Worship Jeezus(tm) And Not Odin?

[Lycorth]

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[Checkmate]

Excellent post, Varokhar. I will be interested to see how Amy (or any other Xian) answers/dodges the question.

 

I, too, want to know why should I believe in Jesus, as opposed to Odin, Zeus, Allah, Mithras, Vishnu, etc, etc? Each one of these "gods" have religious adherents. They each have a long standing history and holy writings. How is it that the proofs for these religions fail the test when they are exactly the same ones Xianity uses?

 

If I'm supposed to ignore obvious faults and failures and failed prophecies, and simply accept Jesus by faith, then by that same token I should accept Allah. Right? I mean, what if the Muslims have it right? They believe by faith that they should kill and die for Allah in order to avoid "hell". How is this mentality/behavior ANY different than Xians?

 

Give me ONE GOOD REASON why I should believe in Jesus by faith, while ignoring ALL other religions that ask me to do the same thing? (And PLEASE spare me any subjective "feelings of love". I feel that my dog loves me. So? Am I now supposed to pray to and worship him?)

[monsterfeets]

Great points ... Especially with Jesus&BibleGod possibly being an evil spirit. I have thought that before. It's actually starting to make a lot of sense all things considered!

 

I asked her the same thing regarding Osiris and the egyptian pantheon in the other thread. Considering he has a similar ressurrection story. To me the basis of the egyptian religion makes so much more sense than Christianity. Especially that you are judged by the balance of truth and goodness in your life as opposed to whether or not you 'accepted Horus as your personal saviour" ;P

 

Also all that's really interesting about Odin. The thing about his eye reminded me of Horus' eye being torn out. Eyeball mythology is cool.

 

I'm really curious as to how amy will respond ... hopefully she will. Obviously there are other Gods who are just as meaningful to people as Jesus. And who are better candidates for worship IMO. To me it seems clear that the reason most people believe in one God or another is simply because of the environment they were raised in. It's not mythology unless it's someone elses religion ;P

[Lycorth]

^..^

[monsterfeets]

Great points ... Especially with Jesus&BibleGod possibly being an evil spirit. I have thought that before. It's actually starting to make a lot of sense all things considered!

 

In the Odinic tradition, there are beings called "Aetins" ("eaters" - the race of Giants in the Eddas). They are the sort-of "demons" of the Odinic religion. They inspire all sorts of destructiveness, and if they indeed do exist (which I believe), it stands to reason that it is possible a particularly sick Aetin called himself Jeezus and imspired some gullible idiots to write down the history of his travels in Palestine, calling them the Gospels. Perhaps Yahooweh and Allaaaaah and the rest are also such beings? It would explain the "inspiration" and the "presences" of these gods that people claim to feel, any visions or encounters people have, any history people may have recorded of such, and also all the sick shit that has been done by followers of Judaism, Xianity, and Is-lame.

 

Well it certainly does make sense.

In Kemetic tradition there is a force known as Isfet. Which is a destructive chaos and a sort of un-creation. Something that attempts to undo Ma'at (Truth, order, justice). Seems like some religions are working towards ma'at and others against.

 

The Aetins kind of remind me a little of the "Archons" of Gnostic Christiainity who use fear and false religions and organizations to keep people under the control of the demiurge. The monotheistic abrahamic religions seem to be working towards this idea of Isfet, destruction, ignorance, etc. Trying to help the forces of darkness and chaos to gain control. To me it would make more sense to follow our sense of morality to try and determine that which is right and wrong. Any God that deems my wisdom ignorance seems a bit fishy to me. So many people are willing to give up their autonomy to feel safe and believe that might makes right.

 

I asked her the same thing regarding Osiris and the egyptian pantheon in the other thread. Considering he has a similar ressurrection story. To me the basis of the egyptian religion makes so much more sense than Christianity. Especially that you are judged by the balance of truth and goodness in your life as opposed to whether or not you 'accepted Horus as your personal saviour" ;P

 

Yes - all Heathen religions, to my knowledge, are not about turning or burning, about accepting their Gods on faith alone, or about turning your life upside down for the sake of any of the Gods. They are about life and living, and living it well - a far cry from the armageddon-obsessed Abrahamic deathcults.

 

Ironic that the Abrahamic religions insist that they and they alone are correct and that the other versions of themselves are demonic or misguided. And ofcourse that all us heathens are doomed as well. They seem to be dead sure that they have the correct answer, while somehow simultaneously admitting their ignorance and handing their very will over to something they can't ever hope to understand. Seems obvious to me who is really being decieved here. Why wouldn't the Gods want us to be happy? I know when I was a Christian though I honestly thought that since Christianity was so horrible and went against everything I felt in my gut it simply must be true becuase otherwise why would anyone agree with it. But I slowly began to realize that most people didn't even agree with most of it, or they didn't know about the bad parts, or they were brainwashed loonies which fit perfectly into the idea that some ill intention is behind the whole show.

[Fweethawt]

I ask again, considering all that, why should I believe in and worship Jeezus™, who asks wicked things of me and also possess a questionable character, and not Odin, who is not depicted as being one tenth the worship-obsessed dictator that Jeezus™ is?

I'm going to use our "waiting period" as an opportunity to post a story about Odin. Actually, I'm surprised that Thurisaz hasn't done so already.

 

This is an awesome story if you have a few minutes to read it. If you think this is off-topic, Varokhar, feel free to have a moderator delete it. I don't think it is though.

 

Enjoy!

 

ODIN WINS FOR MEN THE MAGIC MEAD

IT was the Dwarf's who brewed the Magic Mead, and it was the Giants who hid it away. But it was Odin who brought it from the place where it was hidden and gave it to the sons of men. Those who drank of the Magic Mead became very wise, and not only that but they could put their wisdom into such beautiful words that every one who heard would love and remember it.

 

The Dwarf's brewed the Magic Mead through cruelty and villainy. They made it out of the blood of a man. The man was Kvasir the Poet. He had wisdom, and he had such beautiful words with it, that what he said was loved and remembered by all. The Dwarfs brought Kvasir down into their caverns and they killed him there. "Now," they

 

said, "we have Kvasir's blood and Kvasir's wisdom. No one else will have his wisdom but us." They poured the blood into three jars and they mixed it with honey, and from it they brewed the Magic Mead.

 

Having killed a man the Dwarfs became more and more bold. They came out of their caverns and went up and down through Midgard, the World of Men. They went into Jötunheim, and began to play their evil tricks on the most harmless of the Giants.

 

They came upon one Giant who was very simple. Gilling was his name. They persuaded Gilling to row them out to sea in a boat. Then the two most cunning of the Dwarfs, Galar and Fialar, steered the boat on to a rock. The boat split. Gilling, who could not swim, was drowned. The Dwarfs clambered up on pieces of the boat and came safely ashore. They were so delighted with their evil tricks that they wanted to play some more of them.

 

Galar and Fialar then thought of a new piece of mischief they might do. They led their band of Dwarfs to Gilling's house and screamed out to his wife that Gilling was dead. The Giant's wife began to weep and lament. At last she rushed out of the house weeping and clapping her hands. Now Galar and Fialar had clambered up on the lintel of the house, and as she came running out they cast a millstone on her head. It struck her and Gilling's wife fell down dead. More and more the Dwarfs were delighted at the destruction they were making.

 

They were so insolent now that they made up songs and sang them, songs that were all a boast of how they had

 

killed Kvasir the Poet, and Gilling the Giant, and Gilling's wife. They stayed around Jötunheim, tormenting all whom they were able to torment, and flattering themselves that they were great and strong. They stayed too long, however. Suttung, Gilling's brother, tracked them down and captured them.

 

Suttung was not harmless and simple like Gilling, his brother. He was cunning and he was covetous. Once they were in his hands the Dwarfs had no chance of making an escape. He took them and left them on a rock in the sea, a rock that the tide would cover.

 

The Giant stood up in the water taller than the rock, and the tide as it came in did not rise above his knees. He stood there watching the Dwarfs as the water rose up round them and they became more and more terrified.

 

"Oh, take us off the rock, good Suttung," they cried out to him. "Take us off the rock and we will give you gold and jewels. Take us off the rock and we will give you a necklace as beautiful as Brisingamen." So they cried out to him, but the Giant Suttung only laughed at them. He had no need of gold or jewels.

 

Then Fialar and Galar cried out: "Take us off the rock and we will give you the jars of the Magic Mead we have brewed."

 

"The Magic Mead," said Suttung. "This is something that no one else has. It would be well to get it, for it might help us in the battle against the Gods. Yes, I will get the Magic Mead from them."

 

He took the band of Dwarfs off the rock, but he held Galar and Fialar, their chiefs, while the others went into their caverns and brought up the jars of the Magic Mead. Suttung took the Mead and brought it to a cavern in a mountain near his dwelling. And thus it happened that the Magic Mead, brewed by the Dwarfs through cruelty and villainy, came into the hands of the Giants. And the story now tells how Odin, the Eldest of the Gods, at that time in the world as Vegtam the Wanderer, took the Magic Mead out of Suttung's possession and brought it into the world of men.

 

Now, Suttung had a daughter named Gunnlöd, and she by her goodness and her beauty was like Gerda and Skadi, the Giant maids whom the Dwellers in Asgard favored. Suttung, that he might have a guardian for the Magic Mead, enchanted Gunnlöd, turning her from a beautiful Giant maiden into a witch with long teeth and sharp nails. He shut her into the cavern where the jars of the Magic Mead were hidden.

 

Odin heard of the death of Kvasir whom he honored above all men. The Dwarfs who slew him he had closed up in their caverns so that they were never again able to come out into the World of Men. And then he set out to get the Magic Mead that he might give it to men, so that, tasting it, they would have wisdom, and words would be at their command that would make wisdom loved and remembered.

 

How Odin won the Magic Mead out of the rock-covered cavern where Suttung had hidden it, and how he broke the enchantment that lay upon Gunnlöd, Suttung's daughter, is a story often told around the hearths of men.

 

Nine strong thralls were mowing in a field as a Wanderer went by clad in a dark blue cloak and carrying a wanderer's staff in his hand. One of the thralls spoke to the Wanderer: "Tell them in the house of Baugi up yonder that I can mow no more until a whetstone to sharpen my scythe is sent to me." "Here is a whetstone," said the Wanderer, and he took one from his belt. The thrall who had spoken whetted his scythe with it and began to mow. The grass went down before his scythe as if the wind had cut it. "Give us the whetstone, give us the whetstone," cried the other thralls. The Wanderer threw the whetstone amongst them, leaving them quarreling over it, and went on his way.

 

The Wanderer came to the house of Baugi, the brother of Suttung. He rested in Baugi's house, and at supper time he was given food at the great table. And while he was eating with the Giant a Messenger from the field came in.

 

"Baugi," said the Messenger, "your nine thralls are all dead. They killed each other with their scythes, fighting in the field about a whetstone. There are no thralls now to do your work."

 

"What shall I do, what shall I do?" said Baugi the Giant. "My fields will not be mown now, and I shall have no hay to feed my cattle and my horses in the winter."

 

"I might work for you," said the Wanderer.

 

"One man's work is no use to me," said the Giant, "I must have the work of nine men."

 

"I shall do the work of nine men," said the Wanderer, me a trial, and see."

 

The next day Vegtam the Wanderer went into Baugi's field. He did as much work as the nine thralls had done in a day.

 

"Stay with me for the season," said Baugi, "and I shall give you a full reward."

 

So Vegtam stayed at the Giant's house and worked in the Giant's fields, and when all the work of the season was done Baugi said to him:

 

"Speak now and tell me what reward I am to give you."

 

"The only reward I shall ask of you," said Vegtam, "is a draught of the Magic Mead."

 

"The Magic Mead?" said Baugi. "I do not know where it is nor how to get it."

 

"Your brother Suttung has it. Go to him and claim a draught of the Magic Mead for me."

 

Baugi went to Suttung. But when he heard what he had come for, the Giant Suttung turned on his brother in a rage.

 

"A draught of the Magic Mead?" he said. "To no one will I give a draught of the Magic Mead. Have I not enchanted my daughter Gunnlöd, so that she may watch over it? And you tell me that a Wanderer who has done the work of nine men for you asks a draught of the Magic Mead for his fee! O Giant as foolish as Gilling! O oaf of a Giant! Who could have done such work for you, and who would demand such a fee from you, but one of our enemies, the Æsir? Go from me now and never come to me again with talk of the Magic Mead."

 

Baugi went back to his house and told the Wanderer that Suttung would yield none of the Magic Mead. "I hold you to your bargain," said Vegtam the Wanderer, "and you will have to get me the fee I asked. Come with me now and help me to get it."

 

He made Baugi bring him to the place where the Magic Mead was hidden. The place was a cavern in the mountain. In front of that cavern was a great mass of stone.

 

"We cannot move that stone nor get through it," said Baugi. "I cannot help you to your fee."

 

The Wanderer drew an auger from his belt. "This will bore through the rock if there is strength behind it. You have the strength, Giant. Begin now and bore."

 

Baugi took the auger in his hands and bored with all his strength, and the Wanderer stood by leaning on his staff, calm and majestic in his cloak of blue.

 

"I have made a deep, deep hole. It goes through the rock," Baugi said, at last.

 

The Wanderer went to the hole and blew into it. The dust of the rock flew back into their faces.

 

"So that is your boasted strength, Giant," he said. "You have not bored half-way through the rock. Work again."

 

Then Baugi took the auger again and he bored deeper and deeper into the rock. And he blew into it, and lo! His breath went through. Then he looked at the Wanderer to see what he would do; his eyes had become fierce and he held the auger in his hand as if it were a stabbing knife.

 

"Look up to the head of the rock," said the Wanderer. As Baugi looked up the Wanderer changed himself into a snake and glided into the hole in the rock. And Baugi struck at him with the auger, hoping to kill him, but the snake slipped through.

 

Behind the mighty rock there was a hollow place all lighted up by the shining crystals in the rock. And within the hollow place there was an ill-looking witch, with long teeth and sharp nails. But she sat there rocking herself and letting tears fall from her eyes. "O youth and beauty," she sang, "O sight of men and women, sad, sad for me it is that you are shut away, and that I have only this closed-in cavern and this horrible form."

 

A snake glided across the floor. "Oh, that you were deadly and that you might slay me," cried the witch. The snake glided past her. Then she heard a voice speak softly: "Gunnlöd, Gunnlöd!" She looked round, and there standing behind her was a majestic man, clad in a cloak of dark blue, Odin, the Eldest of the Gods.

 

"You have come to take the Magic Mead that my father has set me here to guard," she cried. "You shall not have it. Rather shall I spill it out on the thirsty earth of the cavern."

 

"Gunnlöd," he said, and he came to her. She looked at him and she felt the red blood of youth come back into her cheeks. She put her hands with their sharp nails over her breast, and she felt the nails drive into her flesh. "Save me from all this ugliness," she cried.

 

"I will save you," Odin said. He went to her. He took her hands and held them. He kissed her on the mouth. All the marks of ill favor went from her. She was no longer bent, but tall and shapely. Her eyes became wide and deep blue. Her mouth became red and her hands soft and beautiful. She became as fair as Gerda, the Giant maid whom Frey had wed.

 

They stayed looking at each other, then they sat down side by side and talked softly to each other, Odin, the Eldest of the Gods, and Gunnlöd, the beautiful Giant maiden.

 

She gave him the three jars of the Magic Mead and she told him she would go out of the cavern with him. Three days passed and still they were together. Then Odin by his wisdom found hidden paths and passages that led out of the cavern and he brought Gunnlöd out into the light of the day.

 

And he brought with him the jars of the Magic Mead, the Mead whose taste gives wisdom, and wisdom in such beautiful words that all love and remember it. And Gunnlöd, who had tasted a little of the Magic Mead, wandered through the world singing of the beauty and the might of Odin, and of her love for him.

[monsterfeets]

(Maybe I should change my name to "Looney Linda" ay Monterfeets?)

 

It has a nice ring to it. Everybody's somebody's loony. What can you do.

[Guest Extian]

This post speaks to me of mans desire to define phantasmal elements with something solid and real. From the tale Fweethawt posted I see many similarities to the Old Testiment. I have always believed that what man knows is much to little to assume a capability to name, and indeed define, "God".

 

Rather than attempting to prove the existance of one "God" over another wouldn't it perhaps be better to glean the useful teachings from a combination of religions? Especially when they show an obvious similarity.

 

My personal choice has been to worship the creator. Whichever being it was that created everything around me. This being, first and foremost has my complete and total loyalty, for without such a being I would not even exist.

 

I know that I do things which are wrong, things which I should be punished for. This is something I cannot escape. However if there was a man who sacrificed himself just to show me how much "God" desires my company in the afterlife then I also owe him my complete and total loyalty.

 

The New Testiment however hold much wisdom. The two most important teachings in the whole Bible, as I was taught are: Treat all other people as you would like to be treated, and: Love the Lord your God with all your body, heart and mind.

 

I don't see how either of these teachings has a negitive influance on humanity, or can be considered "Evil" or "Demonic"... Rather Humanity could benifit from a lack of conflict. Think of the things the human race could acheive if not for all the hostility that exists.

 

And the second teaching I mentioned stems from what I consider to be the single mistake "God" ever made. He was lonely, and all the Angels and Spirits which surrounded him loved him because he made them to love him, not because they wanted to love him.

 

Think of entering into a relationship where the other person "loved" you only because they had no other choice. So he created us, and gave us free will. Indeed I suspect he knew we would disobey him, perhaps it was a test of sorts to see if we truly had free will. Regardless, my current belief is that if we are strong enough to still "love" "God" after all that we have been through, all the doubt, pain, and insecurity will be made up for.

 

My reason for choosing Jesus over Ordin would be because I know from his teachings in the Bible that he was wise, and his advice still holds meaning 2000 years after his "death". I must admit however that i don't know much about Ordin and as such my opinion is a little uninformed.

[Lycorth]

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[Artur]

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[Lycorth]

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[Lycorth]

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[Thurisaz]

Yes - all Heathen religions, to my knowledge, are not about turning or burning, about accepting their Gods on faith alone, or about turning your life upside down for the sake of any of the Gods. They are about life and living, and living it well - a far cry from the armageddon-obsessed Abrahamic deathcults.

 

I soooo want to add to this, but try as I might I can't come up with anything that hasn't been said already

 

 

The Aetins kind of remind me a little of the "Archons" of Gnostic Christiainity who use fear and false religions and organizations to keep people under the control of the demiurge. The monotheistic abrahamic religions seem to be working towards this idea of Isfet, destruction, ignorance, etc. Trying to help the forces of darkness and chaos to gain control.

 

You know, I still (somewhat) regulary drop in at christianforums.com, and when I find one of those stupid threads where the fanatics of both the jebus and the mohamed cult are at each other's throats (yet again...), I like to just link to this pic...

 

 

Any questions?

 

I'm going to use our "waiting period" as an opportunity to post a story about Odin. Actually, I'm surprised that Thurisaz hasn't done so already.

 

One can trust that you'll post it anyway

 

By the way, check out the goo' ol' "*hic*" thread for the latest news

 

 

It has a nice ring to it. Everybody's somebody's loony. What can you do.

 

Commonly, "mad" means "not normal".

 

Too bad that no one has yet come up with a universal definition of "normal"...

 

 

More wisdom can be found in the Eddas and sagas than in the bible. The heathen worldview is more realistic and workable than the christian one. Why not?

 

 

The usual response...stunned silence followed by nonsensical rationalization of placing Jesus in a category by himself, when he claerly doesn't belong in one.

 

Boy don't we all know that...

 

 

I love this part of the story! Can you tell me where this came from? Is it Irish?

 

Amy,

 

while there are some interesting parallels between Irish/Celtic and Nordic/Asatru mythology, you probably won't find much of this in the Celtic myths.

 

If you're really interested, you might find this link interesting:

 

The Poetic Edda (H. A. Bellows translation)

 

This is the most common element of Asatru mythology, "Asatru" designating the faith both Varokhar and I adhere to.

[Lycorth]

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[Thurisaz]

And BraveHeart ~ The final scene before the ax comes down on William Wallace and he see's his first love standing in the crowd smiling at Him.

 

Aaaaah, Braveheart. One of our (my wife and me that is) favorite movies.

 

"Wallace! Wallace! WALLACE! WALLACE!!!!"

[Lycorth]

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[Sparrow]

Getting to it. I know guys like a direct answer and quick!

 

My story ties into my reply but now I have have some errands to run.

 

I'll be back.

 

No wonder people complain that Amy-Marie never has time to answer the direct questions she's been asked in other threads. She can't even give attention too the thread she started on the fallacious resurrection because she has, wait for it, errands. (Surprisingly, it was just when the questions were getting tough again).

 

Eitherway, I'm sure she'll do another "cut and paste" from some other Christian diabtribe and claim it as some "amazingly insightful" teaching story.

 

 

Varokhar:

Sehr gute Punkte, Varokhar. Sie haben sehr gut geschrieben.

 

Sparrow

[white_raven23]

Very endearing story Amy, however, it is not included in the bible.

 

The Odin story comes from the Havamal, which as Varokhar already pointed out....IS a norse "holy" book.

 

While your story is sweet and emotional, it doesn't reflect Jesus as portrayed in the gospels. If anything.....it comes closer to reflecting "Footprints" which is another emotional tale, based MUCH more on the christian "idea" of Jesus, than on the bible character going by that name.

[Lycorth]

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[Ouroboros]

Sidetrax:

 

All you Odinists, and maybe druids too. Do you have any knowledge what nine stones (4-6 inch high) in a circle, about 10-15 feet diameter, comes from? Does it have any significance in the Odinism or the religion?

 

I only know it is a really old formation that was brought hundreds (maybe thousands) of years before Jesus, through Europe (left some in Israel), but eventually landed in Scandinavia, where we have them in many places. In my home village we have a couple of these rings, and they're believed to be 1500 years old, but no one really knows what they were used for.

 

I have pictures, but they're on my other computer. Might get to them later.

 

At one place we have 4 or 5 of these rings in one area, almost like they made one for each family or something? One belief is that it was a prayer ring, to gather the spirits maybe.

[Ouroboros]

----

 

I found a couple of pictures, even though they're not from my home town (Kumla, from the word "Kummel", means Hill in old Swedish, the town is on a hill that was made by the last ice age.), but the pictures will give you an idea how they look.

 

(I know this is a side track, I'm sorry for that, but the thread got me remember things from home.)

[monsterfeets]

Amy: Interesting take on the legend of the king and the beggar maid. I see you have no problem and even prefer using mythology and legend to illustrate your religion but you still insist it is better than 'merely' myth or legend.

 

The whole romantic angle you take confuses me. When I read the bible I don't see that at all honestly. I see a decidedly Jewish monopoly board with a get out of jail free card attatched. I see a lot of rules that no one actually follows (if they even read them in the first place) because it takes way too much effort and everyone just gets frustrated and we always run out of $100 bills.

 

See my beliefs are more like Candyland where even if you get stuck in molasses swamp it's okay because you just wait til your next turn and try again. Eventually everybody wins, some just take a lot longer than others. Plus, it's *candy*. (okay that's a really really simplistic view and not entirely accurate but give me Candyland over Monopoly anyday kthx)

[Lycorth]

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[Fweethawt]

This post speaks to me of mans desire to define phantasmal elements with something solid and real. From the tale Fweethawt posted I see many similarities to the Old Testiment.

I'm not sure what I find to be more insulting. That you compared that writing about Odin to the OT, or that you refered to it as a "tale".

 

That piece was written by the hands of those who were firsthand witnesses as the events unfolded. How dare you call it a "tale".

 

Blasphemer!

[Astreja]

Um, no dragon-smashing, please. I don't like it, and more importantly, the dragons don't like it.

 

Han, the nine stones may represent the nine realms of Norse mythology:

 

Asgard

Vanaheim

Alfheim

Midgard <--you are here

Jotenheim

Nidavellir

Svartalfheim

Muspelheim

Niflheim

 

Nine is also strongly associated with Odin, possibly because of the nine days and nights on Yggdrasil.