Why Should I Worship Jeezus(tm) And Not Odin?

[mwc]

Since no one else here is going to speak up for Jesus, I am.

Why doesn't he just speak for himself? I await his universal revelation.

 

Since every one finds great delight in ridiculing His sacrifice and reducing it "to a walk in the park" as though it was nothing I'm here to say the opposite is true.

You keep using the word sacrifice as if you know what it means. People are trying to tell you that there was no sacrifice at all and the suffering, while brutal, was "a walk in the park" compared to what mere mortals have had to endure for lesser causes and nothing when put into the context of eternity. Many would readily put themselves in jesus' shoes that day, the entire passion play, if they knew it would absolve all sins and they would reign immortal three days later. The decision becomes much more difficult if one is asked to serve out the sentence in hell for all eternity in our stead. Jesus chose not to take the latter upon himself. I imagine you could find mortals that would however. If I were to die, go to hell and there was jesus holding open the gates so that I might escape to paradise/heaven and he has to be there for all eternity so that no one may ever be trapped within (or something to that effect). That would be a true sacrifice on his part. Not what you keep preaching.

 

The crucified Christ is null and void here so perhaps the returning Christ will be more convincing.

It might except he failed to return as promised.

 

Oh, and like so many others here, you failed to address my comment on exactly how this whole sin debt thing is paid. It's good to know how it all works, ya know?

 

mwc

[Skankboy]

Your posts always makes me laugh with this ridiculous notion that other people are posting under my account. Who are you White Raven? Why are you posing as a moderator by telling me to shut up? If you think the subject's been beaten to the ground then what are you doing here? If you don't want to discuss it no ones twisting your arm.

 

Of course, if you actually answered a question now and then you might not get these kinds of response...

[white_raven23]

Why are you posing as a moderator by telling me to shut up?

 

Why do you think I would have to be a moderator to tell you anything? You think someone has to come from a position of authority to point out that you have been wholly inconsitant with your posts?

 

See that's the nice thing about being here at Ex-C instead of being at a Christian forum. I don't have to "fear" my moderators when I post exactly what is on my mind.

 

And you HAVE been inconsitant! There have been probably over 20 posts from different people fully and completely addressing how the crucifixion of jesus was NOT a sacrifice. It has been very clearly spelled out that he lost nothing he needed.

 

Odin sacrificed his EYE for wisdom. HE DID NOT GET his eye back! And it's not as though he didn't need the eye, what with battles with giants going on.

 

Tell us "Amy", what did jesus lose FOREVER as a result of the crucifixion? His life? Uh-uh. He got it back. According to your mythology, he even got to come back and say goodbye to his disciples before going "home". WHO else in the fictional history of mankind according to your precious book has been allowed that?

 

That is not a sacrifice. If anything, it was a loan.

 

But that doesn't sell so well when you want to tug the heartstrings of potential converts, does it?

 

The Loan of Jesus......just doesn't evoke the same emotion does it? And that is what it really comes down to Amy....your religion only works via emotion.

 

Odin encourages us to be more than we are by gaining wisdom and taking responsibility for ourselves. Jesus wants our tears to wash his feet.

 

Definitely got more respect for Odin.

[white_raven23]

If you really understood what He did for you White_Raven you would gladly wash His feet with your tears, but you have shut your eyes and stopped up your ears and bolted the door of your heart. There is not one part of Himself that Jesus withheld from you, even the last drop of His blood.

 

Wrong.

 

I don't debase myself before those I hold in respect. By lessening myself, I would be reducing the respect that person is worthy of.

 

Do you respect a king whose subjects prostrate themselves before him? Or do you respect a king who encourages his subjects to stand tall with pride?

 

And don't even try to imply that I am "ignorant" of the supposed "blessing". I was a Christian for 20 years....and then I really sat down and read the bible.

 

You want to keep christians? Better keep them far away from that book Amy.

 

The Christian religion is only tenously based on it anyway nowadays.

 

Did Noah try to convince people to join his family in the ark?

 

Did god intercede when Lot's daughters committed incest under the mistaken notion they were the only people left in the world?

 

Did the people of Israel give even a moments pause, a brief Psalm or anything dedicated to the sorrow of the Egyptian babies that were lost as a result of a stubborn pharoah?

 

'No' is the answer to each one of those.

[Checkmate]

Okay. It's my turn.

 

Amy Marie, you mentioned "breaking the Law" in your previous post. Might I ask the obvious question? WHAT LAW?!? Aren't you Christians always harping about how NO ONE can fulfill the law, and that GRACE has replaced the Law? What's "Law" got to do with it? Paul said that the Law was a pedagogue to bring everyone to Grace. The Law is NOT to be feared.

 

Also, rather than recreate the wheel, I'd like you to read this thread of mine from the past...

 

IS IT FINISHED, OR NOT?.

 

To date not ONE Christian has dared comment on my thread. (Probably because, as usual, I successfully destroy a retarded Christian doctrine. I have that gift. )

 

The previous participants in this thread have been trying mightily to get you to understand that Christ's "sacrifice" was no such thing. Well, I went one step further in my thread to explain that IF Christ did "sacrifice" and PAY for our sins, then the entire Christian religion and need for evangelism/belief is moot. Check it out. I DARE you. And then comment so that I can KNOW you've at least done me the respect of reading my work. (Unless, of course, you're scared? )

[Thurisaz]

Why can't this be just about god vs. god. The conversation is not out to prove whose is real. Amy could use the same defense saying odin isn't real and his books about him are all lies.

 

Granted. Basically.

 

Of course, Amy's "Jebus wins" claim wasn't exactly about any character traits as well. Basically it was just a brief rephrasing of babblical dogma. I thought I'd retaliate in kind.

 

(And of course she can claim that Odin isn't real too. Contrary to her - or so it seems, no? - I'm perfectly fine with not everyone believing as I do )

 

 

If one should worship Jesus or Odin should be based on fact.

 

Okay.

 

You first.

 

 

If you are worshipping Odin and Jesus ends up being the fact where does that leave you? Don't you ever have "What if?" questions?

If I'm wrong I have nothing to lose on the other hand...

 

Oh puh-leeeeeeeze Amy! *chuckle*

 

Not Pascal's wager. For crying out loud, please present at least a bit of challenge to us, would you?

 

 

This is the post that got me going. Jesus is mostly dipicted weak and slain but is no mention of His courage in facing one of the cruelest tortures of His time?

 

Where's the courage in Jesus "risking" a life he knew from the very start would not be over after that cross?

 

On the other side, everything will end. Everything. Literally. Odin will die. He knows it. There's no escape.

 

And still he doesn't give up.

 

You say?

[nick5]

Look guys, no matter how you cut it, there's no denying Jeebus is a weak little fuck. I mean he can't even move a chariot of iron.

In a fight against Odin, there is no doubt he would only be doing what he does best. Getting pwned.

 

[Thurisaz]

"What would Jesus do?!"

 

"Dunno. Probably, get crucified and die."

 

[Ouroboros]

When we break the law we have to pay the punishment.

First of all, what is the punishment for running a red light? Fines or death penalty?

 

What is the punishment for not believing or not knowing there is a God? Eternal suffering and pain.

 

Imagine this:

 

A boy in a foreign country grows up with the wrong religion and never hears about Jesus. He will go to hell for infinite time, having extreme pain and torture applied to him.

(That's based on your belief)

 

Now imagine this:

 

This boy blaspheme God, and get stoned to death.

(That's based on the Bible)

 

And now imagine this:

 

This boy do jaywalking. The police tell him not to do it because it's against the law, but nothing serious is done to him.

(That's normal in the real world)

 

 

Amy, justice is when and only when, correct amount of penalty is applied to a crime, not infinite and overkill punishment for a small crime.

 

What you call justice is not justice. God is not applying blind justice according to your Bible, but intenationally apply unfair penalty.

[nick5]

A boy in a foreign country grows up with the wrong religion and never hears about Jesus. He will go to hell for infinite time, having extreme pain and torture applied to him.

(That's based on your belief)

 

Haha, I know what she's gonna tell you.

"Jesus is gonna give you a chance even after you die, he'll walk with you up to the gates of hell to give you one last chance".

Even though there is nothing about that in the bible. Christians will tell you anything to make it seem like the babble isn't really the evil cruel book that it is. They'll twist it's word and make shit up right on the spot.

[Ouroboros]

A boy in a foreign country grows up with the wrong religion and never hears about Jesus. He will go to hell for infinite time, having extreme pain and torture applied to him.

(That's based on your belief)

 

Haha, I know what she's gonna tell you.

"Jesus is gonna give you a chance even after you die, he'll walk with you up to the gates of hell to give you one last chance".

Even though there is nothing about that in the bible. Christians will tell you anything to make it seem like the babble isn't really the evil cruel book that it is. They'll twist it's word and make shit up right on the spot.

I've heard that counter argument before, and here's my response to that.

 

If a person gets a chance to choose Heaven or Hell when they're dead, standing in front of Jesus and getting asked, hard to doubt at that point do you think? Means, with 99.9999% chance of going to Heaven.

 

Now, by telling someone that Jesus saved them, gives them the option here, right? But without seeing Jesus. So the chance they make the choice here is low.

 

Hence, you give someone a better chance of going to Heaven, by NOT giving them the Gospel in this world. Leave it to Jesus to do it after death.

[Sparrow]

Jesus? Who's Jesus? Wasn't he that dude that copied mithra?

 

Talk about un-original! What a waste of time christianity is.

 

Go for Odin, at least he has some spine!!

 

Sparrow

[Astreja]

Odin encourages us to be more than we are by gaining wisdom and taking responsibility for ourselves.

And we do. My own life has improved by leaps and bounds since I rediscovered my ancestors' path seven years ago. I dumped a 26-year abusive relationship, wrote a novel, finished a painting, got my driver's license, and learned how to play new three musical instruments. All in my mid- to late-40's.

 

And, till Skuld takes her scissors to the wyrd of my life, I intend to keep going and going like an Asgardian Energizer Bunny.

[Lycorth]

^..^

[Thurisaz]

Astreja's life bears some similarities to my own. Ever since dumping the evil spirit known as Jeezus™ for Odin and his fellow Pagan Gods, my life has improved dramatically.

 

Add another one to the list of changed lifes

 

New job, cool new home, and most important of all: I've found the love of my life to marry. Granted that some will call this a coincidence, but exactly since the time I dropped jebus for Odin (or rather for Thor, in my specific example...) my life stopped to be a loser's life.

 

Yeah right, I really really need to believe in the jebus shit again. Without any good reason.

[Antlerman]

Amy,

 

Or shall I call you Perpetua? Are you on such a quest of self suffering that you overlook those who have some respect for you? One thought for you Amy, to seek suffering is a form of self gratification. It is missing the point of all of it. Your eyes are on you. You are neither listening or seeing. This is not the Roman empire and you live in the 21st century.

 

So, are you ready to deal with the questions we've asked you, or is this marytdom all about Amy and her search for some self-awareness? You are showing disrepect to me and many others. Is this about you, or others?

[Asimov]

It's not marytdom. No quest for suffering. Jesus is so misunderstood here. I am hoping to be a voice for Him and offer hope to those who haven't been swayed to totally reject Him. This forum is so unbalanced in regards to Christ. I hope I can contribute a sliver of respect for Him.

 

You can call me Amy if you like.

 

And why should I respect Jesus?

[Ouroboros]

And why should I respect Jesus?

Because you should show respect to dead people. (sorry, couldn't help it.)

[Asimov]

And why should I respect Jesus?

Because you should show respect to dead people. (sorry, couldn't help it.)

 

 

[mwc]

Hmmm...How many words does it take to say absolutely nothing? I didn't count them but it's about however many you typed here Amy.

 

You cast jesus in so many roles it's just incoherrant. He's the judge, jury, prosecuter, ransom, sacrifice, and so many others. You name it and he's it. Us too. Whatever point you want to make and tada! Here's some lame example. Sadly it just muddies the waters.

 

I'm willing to bet you didn't go back and read my question. That's okay. I didn't expect you to. There's really quite a bit in this thread. However, this appeal to the law is quite pathetic. No xians follow the law much less know the law. Hell, they can't even agree which of the three sets of the ten commandments are the "real" ten (even though the second set are the only ones that actually declare themselves to be the ten commandments to my knowledge). No xians listen to jesus when he says the law is to remain in effect but choose instead to obey Paul. Xians are hypocrits in most every respect which is highly amusing in that jesus accused the Pharisees of the day of the very same thing (and xians love those sermons...how those silly Jews couldn't see those logs in their own eyes while debating with the son of god...ha ha).

 

When we break the law we have to pay the punishment. That's how it is in the natural world and the spiritual world.

Well, I'm not sure what a "spiritual world" would be like. To my knowledge there is no such thing. If something "is" then it is natural.

 

Also, I cannot break a law of nature. For example I cannot accelerate faster than light. I will not be punished for doing so I simply am not allowed to. I imagine I will die at some point in my attempt. I guess that could be taken as a form of punishment but I wouldn't.

 

What kind of a society would it be if criminals were allowed to roam out streets, ...

What kind indeed?

 

Even so, the ten commandments is God's Law. If God winked at offenders and said "no problem" then He wouldn't be a God of order and justice. We don't think twice about paying a traffic ticket or if someone robs a bank we are thankful the criminal is put in jail. Justice is served.

Ever been to a traffic court? It's full of people "thinking twice" about that traffic ticket.

 

Every time we break God's commandments we break the Law. The Law says you did the crime now you must pay. God loves us but He is also just. He loves us and does not desire to punish us but at the same time justice demands punishment. As I already said we understand the concept of justice in our own society. If your child was raped you would expect justice. If someone stole your wallet and the theif was caught you would expect justice. If your teenager breaks your law and stays out all night you punish the child because you care. You teach your kids that when you break the law there are consequences.

 

We broke the Law and justice demanded we should be punished. God made the way so the demands of the Law could be satisfied, through Jesus. Jesus is the sinless divine one. All our Law breaking was put on Jesus. Why did he die the way he did.

Ever go to a court or ever see a picture of one? See that statue of the lady with the blindfold and the scales? Justice is BLIND! You cannot love someone and demand justice and demand this and that and the other. You must be impartial. Otherwise it is vengeance. Ever here that phrase? "Vengence is mine saith the lord." That's not justice, Amy. That's revenge. God, being involved personally in this case needs to excuse himself from this case and call someone else in to preside as judge. He's not fit to serve.

 

As for you examples. I don't have a child but I have nieces and I'll tell you this. If any of them were raped I wouldn't be out for justice. I'd likely be out for blood. If someone did anything to my nephews it'd the same story. I'm not impartial.

 

But I'm human. Your logic is flawed by that point alone. God, being god spoke the universe into existence. An elegant beginning. To say we need this convoluted "solution" to "justice" is rediculous at best. He could simply speak and it would be solved. Here's the solution. "I forgive you now and forever." It's done Amy. You want to complicate it with "if's" and "maybe's" and "has to's" go right ahead but to say god could do what he did in the first two chapters of Genesis but couldn't do what I just typed is dishonest and limits god to what you want god to be.

 

Cue the violins...

He was crowned with thorns taking the punishment for out sinful thoughts of hatred, lust, revenge.

He was punched, beatened, spat upon, blindfolded for the sins commited with our eyes and other senses.

He was lashed from head to foot taking the punishment for sins we comitted with our bodies, fornication, adultery etc

His hands and feet were crucified taking the punishment for sins we had commited by stealing, or punching, walking into forbidden places that God clearly says is wrong.

 

The NT says that Jesus "became sin." All our sins were put on Him.

He endured seperation from the Father as God cannot look on sin.

He tasted death for all humankind.

He was marred more than any man.

He was so disfigured that He was unrecognizable.

He descended into Hell and preached to the spirits who were in prisoned there and led many to heaven.

And the preaching continues...

 

Do you honestly believe I know nothing of this Amy? Seriously? I ask because you say it over and over and over as if I've never heard a word of it in my entire life.

 

If he "became sin" then he "is" sin. Sin is not allowed in heaven. He is not in heaven. Is he in heaven? Further, if all our sins were put on him then we are sinless. Am I sinless? Are you sinless? If the answer is "no" then all our sins are not on him.

 

Do people still die? If "yes" then "tasting" death means dying for about three days.

 

He was not marred more than any other man. See pissed off White Raven about that.

 

He wouldn't be the first, or last, disfigured person in history.

 

Let's see...he went to hell and preached. I thought he took on everyone's sins? Why would he need to convert anyone if they were now sinless? They should just be free, right? Not only that but even in hell he wasn't totally convincing? Sinner:"Aren't you a little short for the messiah?" JC:"I'm jesus christ, I'm here to rescue you." I mean, here's GOD, IN HELL, and he couldn't convince people to go with him. Just how lame was this guy? He couldn't convince his disciples after three years. He couldn't convince people IN HELL in person. He won't convince the world even when he returns WITH AN ARMY OF ANGELS! What's up with this guy? Satan says boo and everyone's on board but jesus can't convince anyone of anything. Maybe it's the fact he doesn't exist or maybe people just don't want to hate everyone else except him since that's shitty?

 

What people are refusing to consider here is the many layers of Jesus sufferings,

the spiritual. emotional, metal agony. He was bruised for our iniquities, crushed for our sins. God laid on Him the punishment of us all.

 

And when justice was completely satisfied Jesus said, "It is finished!"

 

So Jesus was punished in our place. If justice demanded that Jesus stay and hell He woukld have done that too but He is our living Saviour who walks with us daily. Would good would it be to have a dead Saviour? I would be very disappointed if I could not know the one who loved me and gave up His life for me.

What you are rufusing to consider is that we've already considered all that. I've already been there, done that, got the T-shirt. It shrank and the colors ran. What a piece of shit. I can't believe it. I was told it was colorfast on all cycles. Liars. Turns out you have to keep it separate from everything else in life. Your appeal to my emotions will fail. I don't care if you went through a book and found the worse possible thing imaginable and somehow proved to me that jesus existed and jesus endured that. It doesn't matter to me. I made my appeal to jesus. On the final day when I got no answer then it no longer mattered. That was it. All the promises in the world were broken. As others have said. He's empty promises and lies. Nothing more. When you dedicate a lifetime to a fable and you "need" something that is promised and don't get it then that's all that matters. Odin makes no stupid promises and so there's no expectations. Odin wins.

 

As far as metal agony...I hate bad metal too. I feel for jesus.

 

And yet when it comes down to it you use all the words and never answered the question. You say justice was complete. You say "It is finished." What was finished? What justice was served? What sins were removed? What was accomplished exactly? You don't really know do you? You can come up with scenerio after scenerio but I'm willing to bet that given enough questions by myself and/or others you will contradict yourself. Not because of our questions but because the whole concept is incoherrant.

 

So try to tell me what the whole thing was about. I know you want to think you've told me but you haven't said anything at all. I want to know what did jesus die for? He took on the sins of the world. Okay. What does that mean? All the sins? The sins up to that point? If it's all the sins then why do sins need to be forgiven? If the Lord's Prayer is accurate then we could simply pray for forgiveness prior to his death anyway so what was the purpose of his death if prayer is still required? If prayer is not required and only belief in jesus is required for forgiveness of sins then xians essentially have the ability to do whatever the please in god's eyes so then why do xians claim otherwise? At this point shouldn't xians simply kill themselves to be with god since suicide would no longer be a sin?

 

mwc

[mwc]

After thinking about Amy's answer to me about how jesus went to hell and preached and how she put forth Pascal's wager to everyone else something came to me. This would be Pascal's wager in action. These people in hell got to be in hell, experiencing the horrors that we must imagine only to have jesus himself appear right before their eyes so they might go (the promise of xianity today).

 

According to Amy he preached and not all of them left. So how bad was the deal being offered that you could hear it and, in the midst of all the horror and torture look into the eyes of perfect love and say "Nah...I think I'll stick it out here." These people wouldn't have all the stories we have about hypocritical xians or the NT at all. None of that to color their views. Just jesus in his "in between" body giving them their options and according to Amy not all of them taking him up on the offer. It blows my mind because I've been led to believe that if I truly knew the horrors of hell, even for one second, there's no way I'd want to stay there and I'd regret not accepting jesus and I'd cry out for him to come rescue me. Even a glimpse of hell would convert me but I won't get than until it's too late. I guess souls were tougher back then?

 

mwc

[Checkmate]

......

I answered this question.

Could you be less evasive, or a little bit more helpful? When and WHERE did you "already answer" my questions? Forgive me, but I haven't been wallowing through all of your posts, so if you could simply give me a direct answer or a link to where you've "already answered", I'd appreciate it.

 

(Unless, of course, this is yet another way of dodging me and my uncomfortable questions?)

[nick5]

Jesus is so misunderstood here.

Yeah.

 

By you.

[Antlerman]

Dear Antlerman,

 

I would be happy to talk to you. It's not like I have never answered any of your questions and treated you with respect.

 

You actually have not been responding lately, but I will reask you later. For now, please address this one that OM has been wanting to discuss with you: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=189428

[Lycorth]

^..^