Why Should I Worship Jeezus(tm) And Not Odin?

[Lycorth]

^..^

[Checkmate]

Wow! This is most interesting. Has anyone noticed (I know you heathens have, but Amy hasn't) how Amy is using FAIRY TALES and FABLES to support and offset the FICTION of her bible?

 

Very damning testimony, there. Here we are, seeking Truth™ and all Amy can provide us with is her Fairy Tales, which have no more validity than the Odin saga.

 

Amy, can you see the trap you've wandered into? How can you expect this old atheist to believe what you say, when all you bring to the table is a personal Fairy Tale? If I were inclined to believe in and choose a "god", at this moment I'd pick Odin. (Being a long time fan of Thor, that'd make sense anyway!) His story is more satisfying and fun!

 

Where's your Proof™, Amy? Where's your Jesus? I need something concrete to sink my teeth into, not Fairy Tales and Fables. If I want those, I'll go back to reading Marvel Comics®.

[Antlerman]

Amy,

 

Before I devote some time to put to words my thoughts, I wanted to provoke your thoughts on this: The Bride of Christ as I see you describe it is very much the vulnerable woman in need of the strong knight to protect and love and honor and nurture her. If I am wrong correct me.

 

Consider this, that the Bride in a marriage is to become one with their spouse, not subservient. In other words, equals, not the same person, but one person together in an equal partnership. I wonder how much the language of the mythology you are using is limiting your thoughts. This image of the weak woman who has found salvation, is a baby step towards adulthood, or "true salvation", so to speak. It is not the end of that "relationship", but the beginning.

 

I will get to my other thoughts later.

[Ouroboros]

Thanks Astreja, I knew that 9 must be a magical number somehow. It couldn't have been random, all the rings in Sweden have 9 stones. Possibly the ring was used as a spiritual "vortex", where all the powers from the gods would be centered during mass or such.

 

The rings are called Judges Ring, because it was proposed it had an early "court" or "city hall" function, but no one is really sure. I think it has a religious function. Like an early pagan church.

 

The ones they found in south Europe I think they estimated to 5000-6000 years old. But I'm not sure.

[KT45]

Dear Mr. Grinch,

 

The thread is not about proving Jesus exists. I know I'm not going to be able to do that. It's more about why a person should worship Him.

 

Your a guy so maybe that's why you don't like my style of telling the story. It's just the artist in me. But I have presented what's written in the Bible.

 

Actually, I was hoping it was a little better than marvel Comics.

can I get a different story? I don't want to be a damsel in distress!!!!

[Antlerman]

Amy,

 

I am wondering if when I talk about you using mythology as a means of conceiving and communicating your beliefs, you are somehow taking offense? I know that word has taken upon it, especially in the literalist Christian world, the meaning of “a lie”. This is not how I am using it. It is simply a category of language. Mythologies are not lies. They are a type of story that communicates “truths”.

 

Before I attempt to talk further about this, I’d like to know if you understand that distinction, or if you have having a problem with that word, or me for using it?

[Antlerman]

Before I attempt to talk further about this, I’d like to know if you understand that distinction, or if you have having a problem with that word, or me for using it?

 

No. I am not offended at all. I see truth in the story of Odin and all the other stories I have alluded to. Lord of the Rings. The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe ~ and so forth.

Wonderful. Then I should also ask do you take offense when I apply it to Biblical stories?

[Ouroboros]

I think you already know the answer to that question. I really don't want to go that way. The thread would really go off in the wrong direction. I've decided I'm not going to try to convince people to believe in the Bible through arguments.

Everything you say to support your faith is an argument... You've been arguing your faith the last couple of days, but I think you meant you didn't want to try to convince people using reason or rationality. Right?

[Thurisaz]

All you Odinists, and maybe druids too. Do you have any knowledge what nine stones (4-6 inch high) in a circle, about 10-15 feet diameter, comes from? Does it have any significance in the Odinism or the religion?

 

9 is a sacred number in Asatru, compare with the Nine Noble Virtues and the nine worlds of Asatru mythology.

 

As for a circle of stones, no specific idea on my side. Marking a former Thing site?

 

But then, only a few feet wide... must have been a small Thing

 

("Thing" as in the ancient Nordic council/court, not like the modern English word)

 

 

Hmm... from what I see, they were probably just arranged to mark off worship sites. Places to hold Blot and Sumbel, I'd reckon.

 

That's another option

 

The rings are called Judges Ring, because it was proposed it had an early "court" or "city hall" function, but no one is really sure. I think it has a religious function. Like an early pagan church.

 

Back to the "Thing" idea then

[Ouroboros]

We still use "Thing" in Swedish. But nowdays it's "Ting". Like "Tingsrätten", or "Tinget". (edit, fixed spelling with my Svea land keyboard)

 

The ring is big enough to have a group of people inside. It's 10-15 feet, sometimes smaller. I guess you could have one person at each stone. Facing each other.

 

Supreme court in US have 9 justices.

 

I think that these rings are older than the Odinism faith even. I suspect it is initial paganism, and then it evolved into Odinism. (is it really Odinism, in Sweden we called it "Asa tro" = Asa faith.)

[Thurisaz]

As for me, I don't consider myself an "Odinist", but an "Asatruar" indeed. At best I'd be a "Thorist"

 

Whoa, nice thread-within-the-thread, no?

[Ouroboros]

Asatruar, that's the word you told me a couple of months ago! I had it somewhere back of my head.

 

It's very close to our "Asa tro", I bet it is the same. Swedish have its roots in old norse too, but it has been mixed up with a lot germanic and latin etc...

 

My guess is that Asatruar is the old norse word for "An Asa Believer". Right?

 

My curiosity have been stirred again. I never paid much attention in school about Asatro (we read about it in elementary and middle school), but since I was a friggin hard core Christian, I saw it (of course) as "belief in demons" and a "faith from satan". etc.. I have some work to catch up.

[Antlerman]

Before I attempt to talk further about this, I’d like to know if you understand that distinction, or if you have having a problem with that word, or me for using it?

 

No. I am not offended at all. I see truth in the story of Odin and all the other stories I have alluded to. Lord of the Rings. The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe ~ and so forth.

Wonderful. Then I should also ask do you take offense when I apply it to Biblical stories?

I think you already know the answer to that question. I really don't want to go that way. The thread would really go off in the wrong direction. I've decided I'm not going to try to convince people to believe in the Bible through arguments.

Actually, I am not entirely sure of the answer. Whether you do or you don't understand the Bible or parts of the Bible as mythological in nature, is probably not essential for you to say. But I do want you to understand when I use myth, or mythology in reference to the Bible, I am NOT meaning to insult it or you. I am using it in the academic sense of the word, not the colloquial use.

 

I think you are making a step in the right direction in avoiding logic to validate a belief system. I forget where I read this recently but someone said it is futile to try to talk someone into a belief, seeing what it is to someone speaks louder than words. This is where I will add, that it can be Odin, Thor, Mohammad, Jesus, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Allah, God, Nature, etc.

 

The proof of the validity of any belief is in the benefits it brings to someone, not in the logic of the system. No system, no mythology is perfect and fits completely. What fits best is personal. Realizing this brings peace to those of varying beliefs, and that is when "truth" is really served and the ideal that "God" is supposed to represent is realized, IMHO.

[Thurisaz]

My guess is that Asatruar is the old norse word for "An Asa Believer". Right?

 

Yup. Asatruar = True to the Aesir.

(I've encountered some people who designate themselves as Vanatruar too - adorers of Freyr and the rest of the Vanir Gods )

 

My curiosity have been stirred again. I never paid much attention in school about Asatro (we read about it in elementary and middle school), but since I was a friggin hard core Christian, I saw it (of course) as "belief in demons" and a "faith from satan". etc.. I have some work to catch up.

 

Wikipedia is your friend

 

Also don't forget to check out The Troth while you're at it

[Ouroboros]

Okay, here's a theory:

 

The nine stones in a ring symbolizes the 9 virtues, of "truth", "self reliance" and "honour" etc. Which are the "10 commandments" of Asatru.

 

So the ring could have been the Ting, where a persons (suspect of crime) virtues were tested maybe through witnesses. Say each stone was each virtue, and the defense had to provide a person to witness to the suspects each virtues. Just an idea.

 

Wikipedia is your friend

Yeah. I just picked it up before you replied. Damn, this is interesting.

 

Imagine if I'd tell my family, I'm not Christian, I'm an agnostic/atheist with leanings towards Asatru. They would freak out, shout in tongues and start casting out demons left and right.

[Thurisaz]

Well then... get some popcorn, get some coke (or mead ) and enjoy the show.

[Ouroboros]

Here's something interesting regarding the cross symbol.

 

Part of the old pagan tradition, we're getting closer to Midsommar, and it's tradition to raise a Midsommarstång, and the only picture I could find to show how it looks like was this one:

 

 

Most likely it's a phallus symbol of fertility.

 

So each year millions of Swedish people raise a big dick in celebration of Summer Equinox.

 

It's from the tradition to ask the gods for the favor of giving us a good harvest. It's friggin cold in Sweden, so you really need the gods help.

 

Okay, I'm done sidetracking the topic.

 

Back to regular programming.

 

There are records that show that Scandinavians existed in the first century, 25 AD. And there are other sources that point to that the Asatru existed before Jesus. So with an older religion like Asatru, and with a cross (see picture above), and the stories about Odin, the 9 virtues (kind'a like the commandments but better), why is Jesus even a shadow of being anything better?

 

And I can see that you Amy don't want to argue for it, so I guess you don't really have any answer then.

[Ouroboros]

Here's a better Midsommarstång:

 

[Guest Extian]

This post speaks to me of mans desire to define phantasmal elements with something solid and real. From the tale Fweethawt posted I see many similarities to the Old Testiment. I have always believed that what man knows is much to little to assume a capability to name, and indeed define, "God".

 

There are no similarities to the OT. The OT is about Yahooweh leading his Chosen Ones on a murderous rampage to establish their national soverignty, as well as kill for him to establish his religious soverignity on Earth. There are no similarities here.

 

The similarities are to the very beginning of the bible (in genisis), I see the mead as the apple, and the snake should be obvious. The giants mentioned here also remind me of "the sons of old, men of great renown". In Jewish mythology these giants were the sons of the "Watchers" who were Angels sent to watch us. Later they (led by their leader) turned away from God to take mortal women into their beds. The leader of this group came to be known as Satan.

 

Rather than attempting to prove the existance of one "God" over another wouldn't it perhaps be better to glean the useful teachings from a combination of religions? Especially when they show an obvious similarity.

 

Again, there are no similarities. And this thread is about why Jeezus is better than other gods (namely Odin, one of my gods), not about interreligious dialogue. Besides, there's so little about Xianity that is worth noting anyway.

 

There is something to be learned from everything.

 

I know that I do things which are wrong, things which I should be punished for. This is something I cannot escape. However if there was a man who sacrificed himself just to show me how much "God" desires my company in the afterlife then I also owe him my complete and total loyalty.

 

If your god wants you so badly, then why not cut the crap and do away with evil?

 

Sometimes I wonder this myself, and the conclusion I have come to is that like a fine sword, a Katana, I must be passed through the fire and beaten many times to gain the strength to make me a worthy weapon.

 

The New Testiment however hold much wisdom. The two most important teachings in the whole Bible, as I was taught are: Treat all other people as you would like to be treated, and: Love the Lord your God with all your body, heart and mind.

 

I don't see how either of these teachings has a negitive influance on humanity, or can be considered "Evil" or "Demonic"... Rather Humanity could benifit from a lack of conflict. Think of the things the human race could acheive if not for all the hostility that exists.

 

Because loving your god has produced centuries of murder and oppression in the name of your god. And the NT holds no more wisdom aside from the Golden Rule.

 

The Ten Commandments hold wisdom. And were the first teaching I mentioned to be followed none of those wars would have happened. The Church was at fault in those instances, not the bible, and not God.

 

And the second teaching I mentioned stems from what I consider to be the single mistake "God" ever made. He was lonely, and all the Angels and Spirits which surrounded him loved him because he made them to love him, not because they wanted to love him.

 

But according to the Babble, your god is flawless.

 

Maybe some in their adulation of God have professed this to be true, but I very much doubt that he considers himself to be or that he is. We were based on him after all.

 

Think of entering into a relationship where the other person "loved" you only because they had no other choice. So he created us, and gave us free will. Indeed I suspect he knew we would disobey him, perhaps it was a test of sorts to see if we truly had free will. Regardless, my current belief is that if we are strong enough to still "love" "God" after all that we have been through, all the doubt, pain, and insecurity will be made up for.

 

Any god who forces you to love him is an asshole. Jeezus does that, not Odin, hence Odin is morally superior.

 

If you worship God simply because you fear hell then you don't belong in Christianity. Besides I'm sure that after a few million years hell won't seem so bad, people will build up a tolerance. Unless they can see the other side...

 

My reason for choosing Jesus over Ordin would be because I know from his teachings in the Bible that he was wise, and his advice still holds meaning 2000 years after his "death". I must admit however that i don't know much about Ordin and as such my opinion is a little uninformed.

 

The Babble isn't proof of anything. And, as I've said once before, that is why people defer to Xianity - it's all they were raised with. I guarentee that if people knew as much about Odinism as they did of Xianity, they'd choose the former every time.

 

Perhaps. But if your god is so powerful, how did he allow his teachings to become buried by those of another god?

 

 

My reason for choosing Jesus over Ordin would be because I know from his teachings in the Bible that he was wise, and his advice still holds meaning 2000 years after his "death". I must admit however that i don't know much about Ordin and as such my opinion is a little uninformed.

 

Jeezus is "wise" according to the Babble? Is this wisdom: Jeezus was a Cult Leader? Or is this "meaningful advice":Jeezus Christ was the Neighbour From Hell?

 

The Babble shows that, if the Gospel account is to be believed, Jeezus is a colossal jerkoff, not a wise sage with meaningful advice for us. Such proofs as those are ample reason as to why Jeezus isn't worthy of worship. The Heathen Gods surely trump that jackass.

 

The cult was always the church. Always.

 

Jesus gave people some of their freedom back.

 

"It is not what goes into a mans mouth which makes him unclean, instead it is what comes out of a mans mouth which makes him unclean."

 

"What is better? To do a good deed, or to observe the sabbath."

 

My quotes are from Jesus and while they are probably not word for word the meaning behind them is clean. If you want to find them just in case you don't trust me skim through John and find the passages yourself.

[Ouroboros]

Perhaps. But if your god is so powerful, how did he allow his teachings to become buried by those of another god?

Buried? But the religion never disappeared, but stayed in hiding because of the persecution and is strong again, just like Christians in the first century. The only thing that help Christianity not being an underground movement was Constantines changes.

 

To say Asatru is gone because of Christianity, doesn't make sense when you have Asatruende today.

[Guest Extian]

Perhaps. But if your god is so powerful, how did he allow his teachings to become buried by those of another god?

Buried? But the religion never disappeared, but stayed in hiding because of the persecution and is strong again, just like Christians in the first century. The only thing that help Christianity not being an underground movement was Constantines changes.

 

To say Asatru is gone because of Christianity, doesn't make sense when you have Asatruende today.

 

Not at all gone, the word I used was buried. Perhaps smothered was the right word.

 

In any case I will take the view that Constantines epiphony was inspired by my God. Why was there no such event spurring on the teachings of Odin?

[Antlerman]

Besides I'm sure that after a few million years hell won't seem so bad, people will build up a tolerance. Unless they can see the other side...

Did you really just say that????????!!!!!! I can just hear the Christians all excusing God's sadistic behavior in heaven now with those very words you just said!!! Honestly, you sound like someone who is the victim of an abusive relationship making excuses for their alcoholic spouse’s violent behavior. Can you not see this?

 

How can you worship a God that you need to make excuses for?

[Ouroboros]

Not at all gone, the word I used was buried. Perhaps smothered was the right word.

Like the crusades you mean?

 

In any case I will take the view that Constantines epiphony was inspired by my God. Why was there no such event spurring on the teachings of Odin?

And I guess that's like Mohammed?

 

You're absolutely right. If you can't convert with argument, kill them and persectue them, destroy their documents, and destroy their villages, and the winning religion of couse is the one God sent to the world.

 

Oh, right, I forgot, those weren't real Christians.

 

But on the other hand, Christians only constitue 1/3 of the world population, so why is Christianity in minority again?

[Golden Meadows]

Extian: today

"If you worship God simply because you fear hell then you don't belong in Christianity. Besides I'm sure that after a few million years hell won't seem so bad, people will build up a tolerance. Unless they can see the other side..."

 

You have the true spirit of xtianity!!! This is classic, its seldom the mask of hypocrisy comes off!!

 

"It is not what goes into a mans mouth which makes him unclean, instead it is what comes out of a mans mouth which makes him unclean."

 

You said it. I can't think of anything to add.

[RHEMtron]

The similarities are to the very beginning of the bible (in genisis), I see the mead as the apple, and the snake should be obvious. The giants mentioned here also remind me of "the sons of old, men of great renown". In Jewish mythology these giants were the sons of the "Watchers" who were Angels sent to watch us. Later they (led by their leader) turned away from God to take mortal women into their beds. The leader of this group came to be known as Satan.

Fine there are similarities. It doesnt change the fact that Norse Religion predates Christianity. Remember who might have copied whom....

 

Forgive me but i may have forgotten the passage, but where did it say Satan was the leader of the group?

 

Sometimes I wonder this myself, and the conclusion I have come to is that like a fine sword, a Katana, I must be passed through the fire and beaten many times to gain the strength to make me a worthy weapon.

i prefer to be like a plant. needs to be nurtured, cared for, talked to, feels warmth, and the result is a either a flower blooming, or a plant that produces good fruit.

 

why the need to be beaten?

 

The Ten Commandments hold wisdom. And were the first teaching I mentioned to be followed none of those wars would have happened. The Church was at fault in those instances, not the bible, and not God.

Still, many use the bible to justify their actions. If they never read the bible, those actions would not have taken place.

 

Yes the 10 Commandments holds wisdom, but the "laws" are not specific, or originating from Judaism or Christianity. Most religions have the same laws. Besides.... Jesus didnt even get the commandments right. He named 5 out of 10, then in one gospel, added one that wasnt even in the original.

 

Maybe some in their adulation of God have professed this to be true, but I very much doubt that he considers himself to be or that he is. We were based on him after all.

If he exists, he isnt perfect at all... that i can agree with. But it's not their adulation that cause them to make that claim... it's the bible itself. There's so many passages that say that god and his will is perfect. an example:

 

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48

 

If you worship God simply because you fear hell then you don't belong in Christianity. Besides I'm sure that after a few million years hell won't seem so bad, people will build up a tolerance. Unless they can see the other side...

i cant believe you just made that statement.... anyhow, youre like a kitana that needs to be passed through fire and beaten right? maybe you need to go there first...

 

Perhaps. But if your god is so powerful, how did he allow his teachings to become buried by those of another god?

And if your god is so powerful, how did he allow his teachings to become buried by his own followers? 1500 denominations who cant agree on the teaching. denominations who use the fear of hell to attract and keep it's members. A fear that even you disagree with. How did he allow a guy like Paul, to nullify his own laws in which he said were to be followed eternally?

 

The cult was always the church. Always.

agreed... but Jesus was a leader. Click on the link he provided.

 

"It is not what goes into a mans mouth which makes him unclean, instead it is what comes out of a mans mouth which makes him unclean."

that's not what god said. and again... god said his law are eternal and to not be broken. jesus also said that the laws shall be followed eternally and not be broken. yet here he's saying to break the law.

 

but in any case... again i agree with you.

 

"What is better? To do a good deed, or to observe the sabbath."

exactly why i didnt go to church every sunday.

 

so what is better? doing good deeds, or to just believe in jesus?

 

and again i agree with you.

 

from what im seeing, he's just a liar, law breaker, and a cult leader. i choose Odin.