Why Should I Worship Jeezus(tm) And Not Odin?

[white_raven23]

Clearly you did not actually READ the bit on scaphismus. You ignored it. I'm not impressed by the pain of bleeding from the forehead, and I'm not impressed with the pain of crucifixion.

 

I'm impressed by the pain involved in scaphismus!

 

Read IT AGAIN!!!!!

 

14 days to your 6 hours!

[Thackerie]

Eww! Thanks, a lot, White Raven, for teaching me a word I wish I hadn't learned (scaphismus). But you make an excellent point. The "sacrifice" depicted in the Jesus myth was really no sacrifice at all. So, a man-god raises from the dead? Big deal? Isn't being immortal why they are called "gods" in the first place?

[Ouroboros]

Amy, you're missing the point.

 

You said, God answers prayers.

 

I say, no he doesn't.

 

Who's right?

 

I am.

[Ouroboros]

Agree.

 

Amy, Burnedout understands my and my family's pain more than the apologetic christians that don't have any answer but the blanket "Jesus loves you", when it's obvious no one can love someone and let them suffer like this.

[Ouroboros]

What is worse, to suffer crucifiction once or twice? Is two times worse than one time? Or two hours worse than one?

 

Consider this, according to the story, Jesus died before the thiefs. The thiefs still hang on the cross and suffered longer. So if crucifiction is so terrible, why did the thiefs suffer longer and hence more?

[Asuryan]

Yes there are those aspects of God written in both the OT and NT. I do talk about the militant Christ in the first part of my story.

That way I understand it the flood was about distroying wickedness and curruption.

 

Okay, so you accept both the OT and NT aspects of god and jesus, and you strive to accept and reconcile both of them.

Now, another couple questions:

 

1) If the flood was about destroying wickedness and corruption, how comes there are still wickedness, corruption, war, cruelty, rape, murder etc. nowadays? Does this mean that God failed?

2) Do you think that the newborn babies that died in the flood were evil? Or the animals? Can you actually envision with your mind's eye, Jesus, dressed in a beautiful shining armor, with a wonderful flaming sword, walking to a mother with his newborn baby in her arms, and hacking both the baby and the mother to pieces...? Because this is what he did with the flood, wouldn't you agree?

3) Why do you think God chose THIS specific purification method (a method that didn't even work since there is still evil in the world), instead of simply willing the whole world to stop being wicked and corrupted? What is the difference, in your eyes, and in god's eyes, between a dead wicked person and a living wicked person that becomes good and righteous?

 

Thank you in advance for your answers. I hope you'll try to answer all of them.

 

P.S. Gah! Hansolo! I seem to have a problem with spacing. How do I solve that?

[Ouroboros]

P.S. Gah! Hansolo! I seem to have a problem with spacing. How do I solve that?

What spacing? Not spaced out enough? No, seriously, what spacing?

 

The theifs didn't suffer much longer than Jesus because the soldiers broke their legs and then came to Jesus to break His and finding He was already dead, to make sure, they pierced His heart with a spear.

So, crucified and then get their legs crushed, was not worse than being crucified? They pierced Jesus heart after he was dead, so how much pain did that cause?

 

Certainly there have been victims of crucifixion that have suffered longer than Jesus.

Finally Amy. Some admission. You have just begun to open your eyes.

 

I think part of the reason Jesus suffered is to show us that there's hope in the midst of suffering (the Resurrection)and that good can come out of it. Maybe we become more compassionate towards others, or we gain patience and appreciate life more. Like when I was in the flood, I appreciated just having a warm comfortable bed to sleep in.

Sure, but that feeling you can get from any story of any hero that suffered and came out on top. The story of Jesus is nothing but a revised version of the Hero's Journey. Underdog fights hard against all unfair disadvantages, and at the end still wins.

 

The emotional and spiritiual pain of Jesus caused Him to ask, "Why?" as many do when things happen that we don't understand.

And, how can we associate with that? Things we don't even know?

 

I have a pair of invisible shoes, can you guess their color?

 

Also if people don't believe Jesus was totally innocent and chose out of love to bear all the sins and atrosities (?sp) of human kind I don't think it will impact them in the same way it does me.

Very true. You are affected by the story. You're amazed and fascinated. And that's all okay. But realize the world and other people are not explained through your eyes only. Your view of truth, reality, faith, Bible, human emotions, etc... are not the only one, and not necessarily the right one, or maybe there are no right one.

 

We tend to judge people by their actions, but we judge ourself by our intentions. Think about that...

[Asuryan]

What spacing? Not spaced out enough? No, seriously, what spacing?

 

 

 

Well, i.e. when I press return when writing the post, it seems that there is no blank line between my lines... as if they were attached to one another. However when I press Add, and then go and check my post, I notice a lot of spacing that I didn't put there. When I didn't add blank lines, now there is 1. Where I added a blank line, there are 3 of them.

 

Now i.e. I just pressed return once.

 

 

 

Now, twice, to leave a single blank line. But I'm sure that as soon as I'll press Add Reply, I'll see too many blank lines around the post!

[Ouroboros]

I have no problems here. Sure you don't have a problem with your keyboard? You have a wireless? (But again, why doesn't it show, but then show later... strange.) My recommendation, open a new topic and ask about this problem. Someone else might have some ideas what's going on. Maybe your browser or some settings. There are some really savvy people on the site. I don't think it's the forum program itself, but there could be some issues with the Javascripting maybe...

[Lycorth]

White Raven brought up a very good thing, that may cause some to bring up their lunches. It certainly made me cock an eyebrow. That's some sick shit - and truly horrific. Now, since that existed, why didn't Jeezus™ suffer that? It would've been more painful and humiliating - and part of the reason for the Cruci-fiction™ is that Jeezus™ had to be in torment. So why not something like that? And it certainly invalidates the position that Jeezus™ suffered more than anyone ever could've just by being crucified

 

As for Jeezus™ and prayers, he simply doesn't answer them. Another reason I choose Odin over that jerk. Odin doesn't make big promises, like he'll answer our prayers, because he knows as well as we do that the universe just doesn't work like that. If it did, we'd have gazillions of examples, and we can instead produce gazillions of proofs against the Xian concept of prayer, which in turn invalidate Jeezus™, the one who supposedly made those promises to begin with.

 

I have a brother and a sister, but I grew up totally alone. The reason is that I lost my siblings before I was even born. My brother was taken from us by a brain tumor the doctors couldn't stay ahead of, and my sister was born prematurely. My parents, both Xians, you can be sure prayed night and day for their children. If any of my relatives actually cared, they probably prayed as well. They all asked Jeezus™ to spare my brother and sister. But did he? The answer is clear, and I see it several times a year, when I go to visit them at the cemetery, and lay a flower or two at the grave of the brother and sister I never knew. Perhaps I wouldn't have grown up alone, friendless, no one to laugh or play with who I could also rely on to actually be there for me and not steal my toys and make fun of me when my back was turned, if they had made it.

 

What did they do to deserve death? What did I and my family do to deserve to lose them? Is it because my father was divorced, and my mother married him, two things Jeezus™ condemns in the Gospels™? Is it because they were dirty Catholics and not part of the right sect? Or is it because Jeezus™ is either an evil spirit who has no intention of answering prayers, or a total myth made up by warped minds?

 

I wish with all my heart that the first person to have been preached to had choked the imbecile who approached him.

 

Odin makes no such promises. Odin does not claim he'll do things and then fail to deliver the goods. Odin gave us some good bits of advice, which proceeded from his wisdom at the time, and today Odinists believe he still tries to guide and inspire, though the spiritual bonds are weak because of 2000 years of Xian theological poison in our souls.

 

A tragic death or incident is understood by the Odinist (and those of other beliefs) to be a fact of living in a chaotic universe, where there are many forces at work, and no divine plans or safety nets. I, as a Odinist (or Asatruar - to-may-to, to-mah-to), don't blame my Gods for not preventing tragedies because they aren't able to - and there exists no such being who can. Nothing can control the universe. But if they claimed to, and still failed to deliver, then they'd be rightfully scorned as oathbreakers, which is a sin to an Odinist if there ever was one. Breaking of one's pledged word is nigh unpardonable. Jeezus™ breaks his pledged word when he promises to answer prayers offered up in his name. Yet he clearly has never lived up to his promise, even if he broke it only once. And we can offer up many instances of Jeezus™ breaking his prayer promise.

 

So, again, why is Odin inferior to Jeezus™? Odin doesn't make foolish boasts that he can't keep, whilst Jeezus™ has clearly done so. Why should I worship a liar?

[Astreja]

Nothing can control the universe. But if they claimed to, and still failed to deliver, then they'd be rightfully scorned as oathbreakers, which is a sin to an Odinist if there ever was one. Breaking of one's pledged word is nigh unpardonable.

That's essentially my take on things. Among the physical symbols that I associate with my beliefs are two braided rings -- One bracelet-size, the other worn on my hand.

 

The smaller one, which has been with me day and night for nearly seven years, is a constant reminder to speak truth and only promise what I'm prepared to deliver. The larger one is kept in my meditation/contemplation place and is called upon when I have a challenge to meet or a heavy-duty oath to swear. A great symbol, IMHO: It can be interpreted both as "what goes around comes around" and "everything is interconnected." Because truth and the Golden Rule are fellow travellers.

[white_raven23]

*sigh*

 

I think I should have put a warning on my last post. I really didn’t set out to make everyone nauseous. Sorry about that.

 

Here:

 

Disclaimer: Warning….this post contains more scaphismus references. Please don’t read my post if it is time for you to eat.

If Jesus Died by Scaphismus……and Returned.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Peter: *sniff sniff*, “John…..do you smell that?”

 

John: *sniff* “Blech! Yes! What died? Did the offal cart turn over outside?”

 

*Knock Knock*

 

Matthew: “I’ll get it!” *Huuuuurrrrl* *choke* “Jesus!.....It’s….It’s Jesus! Hey….*gag* Jesus!”

 

Jesus: “I have returned that you may know I have risen.” *bam!* “Ouch! Who put that wall there? I cannot see my children, for I was 14 days blinded by sun.”

 

Thomas: “I…*hurk* do not believe my eyes…..or my nose….oh Teacher. How can it be you?”

 

Jesus: “Come and touch my arm oh doubting Thomas.”

 

Thomas: “I don’t really wanna.”

 

Jesus: “COME TOUCH THE ARM!” <Thomas reluctantly obeys> “Feel the remains of the bee stings, Oh! Feel that there…..a parasitic worm squirming just under my skin! Feel it wriggle and writhe. Know that I suffered for all mankind.”

 

Thomas: <looking very ill> “Feels squishy….” <Thomas throws up on Jesus’s sandals>

 

 

 

Yes…..Crucifixion is more…..palatable for a reading audience.

 

Is it wrong that I found this darkly funny and just had to share?

[Lycorth]

^..^

[Fweethawt]

Is it wrong that I found this darkly funny and just had to share?

You make being eeeeebilll totally cool.

[Anakin]

Everybody gets angry at God and asks "Why?" That's a given when your suffering hard things you can't understand. Why is it that some people grow to love Him more and others end up hating Him?

I'll tell you why some end up hating him (at least from my experiences). When my son was

diagnosed with his mental handicap, I of course got angry and asked "why". I tried to seek

comfort/answers in the bible. What I found there was crap. Stuff like Lev. 21:17-23. Where god

forbids a handicapped person from coming near god to make offers, "and so desecrate my

sanctuary". The same god who makes people the way they are (Ex.4:11) can't stand to be

near them. What a jerk. Or how about making a man blind so god could display his might

later in his life. (John 9:1-3). So, use the handicapped to advance an agenda, but don't let them

get near god because they desecrate his sanctuary.

Anyway, I guess some people who suffer from tragedies learn to read the bible with a critical eye and not just accept the fluffy bunnies thrown at them from the church.

[Golden Meadows]

 

All the these people I have known for quite sometime (except Dave Rever of course) These people love Jesus and actually love Him more as time passes. They have their hard days but for the most part you wouldn't know that are suffering because they are always helping others.

There are many people on this board who are helping people who have been badly damaged by their personal relationship with Jesus or whatever you want to call it. They have suffered but rather than coming across as the xtian martyr they bring healing to wounds inflicted by xtianity.

 

Everybody gets angry at God and asks "Why?" That's a given when your suffering hard things you can't understand. Why is it that some people grow to love Him more and others end up hating Him?

Because amy they are not wearing your blindfold!. If people hate the xtian god maybe its because they realise he hated them first. He is supposed to be "love" but would you do the things to your family that he does to his?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Asimov]

Everybody gets angry at God and asks "Why?" That's a given when your suffering hard things you can't understand. Why is it that some people grow to love Him more and others end up hating Him? I have my own "stuff." The very thing that you and others seem to insist means nothing, namely the Passion and Suffering of Christ is what helps me when I encounter the hard knocks of life.

 

Careful with the sweeping generalizations there, Amy.

 

Not everyone is angry at God.

Not everyone is suffering.

 

The Passion and the Suffering of Christ may mean something to you, but why should it mean something to us? Can you explain how Jesus is MORE special than anyone else who suffers on a daily basis for longer periods of time? Can you explain why we should accept Jesus over any other deity? Can you explain why I should accept any deity?

 

The only thing I get angry about is people being intellectually dishonest. I'm not a hateful person, you just hold a belief that is so amazingly incoherent that it pisses me off to see anyone accept it.

[Asimov]

Your questions are good questions. Questions that I have asked too. I don't have the answers. There are many things that don't make sense. And there I am, back at the crucifixion with Jesus asking, "Why?"

 

Oh there are a lot of things that don't make sense, Amy. Our mind is a pattern recognition machine. We use it for non-contradictory identification. Your belief is contradictory. Your belief is incoherent.

 

A contradiction does not exist in actuality.

 

Your belief is not true.

 

But then you have to believe there was a reason and a purpose behind it all. Like the tapestry that is only seen from one side. It looks very confusing and ugly until you turn it around and see a beautiful picture.

 

Why must there be a reason behind the entire universe, Amy? How does it look confusing and ugly beforehand as compared to afterwards? Where does this reversal occur?

 

In your mind. You aren't comfortable with there being no purpose in the universe. You conceptualize this being to give you comfort and 'create' purpose FOR you.

 

Why do you think there are so many different religions? Of course, the answer you would give may be one along the lines of "Satan blinds many people to the truth" or "man's sinful nature". That would be too convenient an answer though, would it? We must assume many things in order to come to THAT conclusion.

 

I know a guy who has problems with his heart and needs a heart transplant. He is one of the most grateful people I know. He always says, "I got up out of bed and I had two feet to stand on. I'm able to give my wife and daughter a kiss this morning." And then he goes down the list.

 

Sounds like someone who's looking for an excuse to live. Good on him if he wishes to ONLY see the minimal good that God has given him and ignore the fact that he is internally crippled. Why doesn't he thank God for that?

 

I know it's not easy to do when your in the grip of pain. For me it would be a dark, dark day if I didn't have faith, like my friend Jim.

 

Faith is the marrow of evil, amy. Knowledge actually solves problems.

[white_raven23]

I hear you Asimov. I'm not going to push the issue further. It's just making people mad.

 

Huh?

 

Who's mad?

 

No one is getting mad. Unless you want to call an insistent desire to get you to take the blinders off....for even one second, and view things outside of your chosen life-crutch "mad".

 

Actually I think we are getting to you. YOU are the one who is feeling a heightened sense of unease. And it is causing the typical "fight or flight" sensation. And so you are projecting your feelings onto us in the hopes that the conversation will shift in a more comfortable direction.

 

Well it won't.

 

Jesus did not sacrifice anything.

His mortal death wasn't even by the worst possible method of legal execution (would you feel his "sacrifice" if he'd been hung instead?).

And his love is entirely conditional.

 

You can feel it Amy......this is not how a supreme being worthy of being called such would behave. Letting go of the religion won't make you an atheist either Amy. Simple deism is the next logical step....it's your life....YOURS. You can take as many steps as you like, you still won't be an "evil atheist" yet.

 

You can still have god. You don't need the religion.

[Asuryan]

I have no problems here. Sure you don't have a problem with your keyboard? You have a wireless? (But again, why doesn't it show, but then show later... strange.) My recommendation, open a new topic and ask about this problem. Someone else might have some ideas what's going on. Maybe your browser or some settings. There are some really savvy people on the site. I don't think it's the forum program itself, but there could be some issues with the Javascripting maybe...

 

No problem with the keyboard, no wireless hardware here either... yes, that's exactly what happens. When I write, the post seems to be OK. Then I press Add reply, and there are blank lines when I just pressed return once, or 3 of them when I just wanted to leave 1 (and while I write, everything is OK). Could be a problem with Javascripting maybe?

However when I Edit the post, what I see is what I get. The editing works just fine, and I often correct my posts that way after I post them, especially if it seems there will be too many blank lines around

 

Amy: I'm still waiting for your answer to my flood questions, don't forget about me!

 

And... would you say that "I have no answers" is your answer to the question you've been posed, "why should I leave my faith in Odin and start worshipping Jesus?" ? You still haven't said just once what you think about having faith in other gods, and why jesus is supposedly better than those gods. You're posting your stories, which are very, very long, and surely are taking a lot of time to be written... a lot of stories... but you still haven't answered the initial question posed to you.

 

I wonder why.

[Lycorth]

And... would you say that "I have no answers" is your answer to the question you've been posed, "why should I leave my faith in Odin and start worshipping Jesus?" ? You still haven't said just once what you think about having faith in other gods, and why jesus is supposedly better than those gods. You're posting your stories, which are very, very long, and surely are taking a lot of time to be written... a lot of stories... but you still haven't answered the initial question posed to you.

 

I wonder why.

 

I wonder why, myself.

 

Amy, that is the point of this thread. Again, you have a talent for writing, but I'm not asking you about your talent. I want to hear an explanation as to why Jeezus™ is better than Odin, and I want you to keep in mind both the positive and negative portrayals of Jeezus™ found in whatever Babble™ version you currently favor and explain based on those why Jeezus™ is the best. I warn you, I am deliberately asking you to embark on an impossible task, namely try to justify the evil Jeezus™ who withers fig trees, condemns the divorced, preaches submission and pacifism, wants us to turn from our families and loved ones for his sake, and teaches time and again that without sucking up to him we will be tormented for all eternity.

 

Your stories do display why you like Jeezus™ but they omit the negative elements that are also found in the Babble™. Why? If we must take the Cruci-fiction™ literally, then why should we take the nasty things Jeezus™ said any less so? Why should I not apply the same literalism to Odin and honor him as my god and not Jeezus™? Again, there is nothing to be found about Odin condemning the divorced or trying to cause strife in families or sending people to eternal torment. Odinism is about life and living (as are many non-Xian belief systems), Xianity is about submission to Jeezus™, no matter how it affects your life and your ability to live.

 

Jeezus™ doesn't heal the handicapped. Jeezus™ doesn't give people back their faces - now that would've been the real miracle, no? Those poor people come into church, with all their handicaps, in clear violation of the Old Testament prohibitons against them entering the House of Gawd™, and praise Jeezus™, yet Jeezus™ won't restore them to health? Why? Is it because Jeezus™ may lose a few spiritual drug addicts otherwise? Does he need the lame and infirm because the healthy have little time for him? And amy, if he really cared about you, he wouldn't be providing moral support, he'd have never allowed the shit to happen to your family that he did.

[Antlerman]

Amy: I'm still waiting for your answer to my flood questions, don't forget about me!

 

And... would you say that "I have no answers" is your answer to the question you've been posed, "why should I leave my faith in Odin and start worshipping Jesus?" ? You still haven't said just once what you think about having faith in other gods, and why jesus is supposedly better than those gods. You're posting your stories, which are very, very long, and surely are taking a lot of time to be written... a lot of stories... but you still haven't answered the initial question posed to you.

 

I wonder why.

I think it is hard for Amy to frame a language around what she feels about this question without risking a violation of loyalty to a particular vein of theology she has adopted. In essence she does recognize the equality of all faith systems, yet since hers is the one that speaks to her and is real to her, she answers from within that framework. She’s starts with knowledge of the heart and attempts to offer rational explanations for it.

 

See the best answer to the OP question here: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=186843

 

In my follow up response http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=186879 I asked a pointed question, to which I have not received a direct answer yet. Allowing for time for Amy to process it, if I never get a direct answer, that will be the answer. That answer is that she cannot violate the framework of her adoptive language, despite her recognizing the validity of other systems. She has not found a way to speak to these questions outside the 4 walls of her God box.

 

Amy, the key to unlock that box is in you, not somewhere outside you.

[white_raven23]

Again, you have a talent for writing, but I'm not asking you about your talent.

 

I dunno Varokhar....... I see reason to ask.

 

Here is why I say that. Not so very long ago, 'someone' was begging their way out of arguments on the grounds that they didn't have a hand for research, and bemoaned the plight of being a "two finger typist" multiple times.

(for quick reference to what I'm talking about...please see the Arena)

 

And now we are getting this quality, albiet HIGHLY emotional story, which would require a certain level of research as it is meant as an allegory of the gospel.

 

 

Sooooooo I see that this 'someone' can not only type a considerable volume...and is therefore not that hampered by having a hard time typing...but also seems to be able to do some level of research when the subject suits her.

 

[Vigile]

Jesus did not sacrifice anything.

His mortal death wasn't even by the worst possible method of legal execution (would you feel his "sacrifice" if he'd been hung instead?).

 

 

This is a good point WR makes Amy. If you want to know what suffering is read Kolyma Tales by Varlam Shalamov. This gentleman spent 20, count them, 20 years in a Soviet labor camp in northern Siberia. He was starved, beaten, frozen, subjected to unhuman labor requirements, deprived of sleep, abused by other prisoners, infested with fleas, lost his finger tips, toes, and nose due to the cold, and this all lasted 20 long years. Years where he couldn't let his family know that he was alive.

 

Jesus on the other hand supposedely suffered for several hours and even during those hours knew that he would come through with a reward and a new body. Where is the true suffering? Where is the sacrifice.

 

If you want to talk about true suffering, look at Senator McCain from Arizona. This man spent 7 years in the Hanoi Hilton and was subjected to torture at least as cruel as that which is attributed to Jesus. Yet this man's pain lasted 7 long years, not several hours.

 

These two men I describe above had no promises and no hope. Jesus was supposed to know that he was god himself and that after three days in a silent grave he would have his title restored and all comforts would be given him. Christians expect us to watch "The Passion" or read the gospel accounts and be awed by such suffering, such sacrifice. I fail to see where the sacrifice in this story is.

[Antlerman]

Everyone,

 

My story which is one story posted in several parts IS the reason why I feel the Jesus should be worshipped instead of Odin.

Which of these alternative statements best describe your feelings:

 

1. My story which is one story posted in several parts IS the reason why I feel I should worship Jesus instead of Odin, but I recognize others may find the same sort of meaning for themselves in worshipping Odin as I do in worshipping Jesus. My beliefs are right for me, their beliefs are right for them. We are all equals.

 

2. My story which is one story posted in several parts IS the reason why I feel ALL people should be worshipping Jesus instead of Odin. What is right for me should be right for all people.

 

3. My story which is one story posted in several parts IS the reason why I feel ALL people should be worshipping Jesus instead of Odin. This is right for all people because all other God's are false gods and Jesus is the only real one.

 

4. (Other)

 

I'm really trying to get you to discuss this on this level, as this is the real heart of everyone's question for you, as I see it. Do you feel others are wrong?