Why Should I Worship Jeezus(tm) And Not Odin?

[Thurisaz]

I found several things in the story of Odin the reminded me of Jesus.

 

Don't forget that the sagas didn't get written down until after the (outward?) christianization of our ancestors. And don't forget that for a time christianity and Asatru happily coexisted.

 

In other words, parallels between Asatru and christian mythology may well be more than a coincidence... they may be Asatru adaptations of christian concepts.

[Sparrow]

Kissed by a Rose

 

The last and deepest kiss is for the Prince to give. Not yet! He will know when it is time.

 

 

…….

 

Amy Marie, I don’t want to be rude, but … well … you know …, when I called myself a christian I read many, many tracts of text like this, and with all respect, whilst this is nice, it is not extraordinary.

 

If you have really written this, then you have done it quite nicely. However, it is yet another chrisian text written by yet another dedicated Christian in a time when there’s an over abundance of the texts that pretty well all say the same thing.

 

I don’t know but are you practicing to write Christian books and using this site as some type of sounding board for your ideas. If that is the case then ok, cool.

 

Anyway, to the point. As a number of people have already mentioned that the suffering of Jesus is really nothing compared to the suffering that most human-beings will endure at some time in their life.

 

Take the disease called cancer. Current statistics 2003) show us that 50% of the all people born (and I deliberately omit the point of surviving to adulthood) will suffer some form of cancer. Now in reality, it is quite probably more – more like 70% but because we have relatively good records in developed nations, we know it is at least 50%.

 

On top of this, those individuals who will eventually die from cancer will have on average 2 to 5 years of suffering with the 30% of their lives in pain and the last 10 to 15% of their lives in extreme pain. In developed nations those of us who die from cancer will be given powerful pain killers that stupefy us before our deaths and thus not allow it to be so miserable. Those under-developed countries, won’t be so lucky.

 

Now, if my memory serves me correctly, you said you are a nurse or something like that. So if that is true, then you know cancer is a very messy disease with some pretty horrific manifestations in it’s final stages.

 

Now I could go on and talk about what is loosely termed “tropical diseases” or even “connective tissue disorders”. I could even mention problems with the endocrine system (that’s pretty horrible), etc, etc, etc.

 

However, the point is Amy Marie that most people on the planet will at some stage in their life suffer far, far more than this Jesus character ever did.

 

Ultimately, so what if God gave his only begotten son to die for our sins. Humanity has given it’s only begotten sons, daughters, wives, husbands, aunts uncles, fathers, mothers, etc for no bloody good reason at all to disease, wars, death in the name of this God and whatever over madness since the beginning of time and your God is still not satisfied.

 

So Jesus suffered for all our sins Amy Marie. So what!

 

We have suffered far longer, far deeper and far more intensely than Jesus ever did, and on top of this we did it for no damn good reason at all other than for some unfortunate fools to sit around going slowly insane because for all eternity they have to sit around telling God how wonderful he is for their mediocre lives, while the rest of us suffer excruciating conscious pain in hell for all eternity – all after we’ve already suffered in our mortal lives.

 

I’ll hope you be able to hear our screams!

 

This Amy-Marie, is Christianity!

 

It’s a pity I don’t believe in any Gods anymore because Odin sounds like a great guy compared to Jesus or god!

 

Have A Fun Life!

 

Sparrow

[Asimov]

I never noticed that, white_raven...thanks for pointing out another incoherency in the dilemma that is Amy.

[white_raven23]

Hey Amy Marie..... I have a question.....and I submit to my Ex-C bretheren this link, and encourage everyone to backtrack a little bit......back to when you first joined our little band of miscreants.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=9373

 

I been a true follower of Jesus since I was fourten years old. That was back in 1971.

 

That's just a quick tidbit...there's more if anyone cares to backtrack...my main point is that when Amy Marie first joined our little band, her grasp of grammer and spelling were tenuous at best. Several incorrect spellings even repeated,....such as spelling 'typist" as T-Y-P-E-S-T several times.

 

Now, according to the information Amy originally gave us, she is somewhere in her forties now. And like it or not, it IS hard to teach an old dog new tricks. The tone, quality, and general spelling.....her signature "voice" here anotherwords, should NOT change in a significant way.

 

Now look at the allegorical "novel" and it's supporting argument posts from "Amy".......

 

Amy, how many of "you" are there? There's definitely more than one "voice" at work under your signature. Why can't your "friend(s)" post under their own account, instead of yours?

 

How many christians does it take to fill a single online identity at Ex-Christian.Net?

 

2?

 

3?

 

 

And most importantly.......why?

[Antlerman]

That's just a quick tidbit...there's more if anyone cares to backtrack...my main point is that when Amy Marie first joined our little band, her grasp of grammer and spelling were tenuous at best. Several incorrect spellings even repeated,....such as spelling 'typist" as T-Y-P-E-S-T several times.

WR, you are such the incarnation of cynicism! To be nice and play the devil's advocate here... my typing and spelling skills are improving constantly with use in these forums. I'm also in my mid-40's. I went back up a few posts up here and saw the following example of errors still present:

 

Yes Jesus does mention devorce. Why shouldn't He? Over fifty persent of marriages end up in devorce. With so many absentee fathers, children without two parents in the home, the emotional trauma of seperation...these are the things Jesus hates, not the people.

 

That's a total of 42 words in one paragraph and a total of 4 spelling errors. That's roughly 10% of the words. I can't exactly find support for your hypothesis here, but I'm always open to possibilities.

[white_raven23]

That's a total of 42 words in one paragraph and a total of 4 spelling errors. That's roughly 10% of the words. I can't exactly find support for your hypothesis here, but I'm always open to possibilities.

 

I'm not saying "our" Amy has entirely abandoned her identity to someone else....but I've begun to suspect we are talking to either more than one person using the same ID......or this woman is MPD.

 

I've just noticed the "flavor" is not consistant.

 

So either she is doing a lot of undeclared copy-paste from other sources, OR there's more than one personality at work here. I simply feel it's quite likely given that Amy did in fact inform us multiple times that she is sharing a computer with someone else....and I'd rather imagine that scenario than contemplate the idea she's engaging in copy-paste plagerism.

 

Plagerism sets me off. It's just one of those "things".

 

 

yeah.....I'm cynical little meanie.

[Asuryan]

Hey Amy Marie..... I have a question.....and I submit to my Ex-C bretheren this link, and encourage everyone to backtrack a little bit......

 

 

 

Amy, how many of "you" are there? There's definitely more than one "voice" at work under your signature. Why can't your "friend(s)" post under their own account, instead of yours?

 

How many christians does it take to fill a single online identity at Ex-Christian.Net?

 

2?

 

3?

 

 

And most importantly.......why?

 

 

 

Hmm... you do have a point.

 

(however, if I do mistakes, point them to me, or I won't be able to get better )

 

WR, you are such the incarnation of cynicism! To be nice and play the devil's advocate here...

 

 

 

Ah, Antlerman, always a sweetie though, even if Amy is a single person, this doesn't explain the reason why she is a "slow 2 finger typist" ignoring uncomfortable questions one moment, and she becomes some sort of J.K.Rowling the following moment.

 

 

 

About the stories: I understand that they are the favourite way Amy communicates with us her feelings about christ. However... as I see it, she's starting to use them as a barricade, as a city wall of emotionalism, to defend herself from the attack of reason and logic. Christ is so dreamy, so handsome, so courageous, so knightly, so shining, that she won't even DARE to admit to herself that the bible is chock full of godly (and so, christly) acts of murder, carnage, genocide, torture, cruelty, vulgarity (forcing people to eat crap and so on)... I find it sad, because I'm sure that she's not stupid, and that she could see the shoddy, rusted, stinky armor on the backside of her shining knight, just under his wonderful silky cape... IF she'd only care to open her eyes.

 

Amy, you keep describing Jesus as some kind of dream. Dreams are not logic, and furthermore they cannot be seen anymore once you open your eyes.

 

 

 

If she can keep writing stories full of emotions, of love, of feelings, of personal sensations, of dreams, she won't have to clearly answer the questions posed to her. This is what I meant when I said that we ask "2+2?" and she answers "Fluffy bunnies".

 

 

 

 

Yes Jesus does mention devorce. Why shouldn't He? Over fifty persent of marriages end up in devorce. With so many absentee fathers, children without two parents in the home, the emotional trauma of seperation...

 

 

 

 

Where I live, divorce figures are much, much lower than that. You know what? Families here are not happier than families there... at *all*. Quite the contrary, in fact. If you'll come here, you'll see plenty of families with violent, brutal men hitting their wives, families where it's considered normal to hit your son or your daughter, families where the parents hate each other, but stay together "for the sake of the child", but since they hate each other, they start ruining each other's life, and the children's life too in the process... You know what? Demonizing divorce is not the answer. They do that here, and look at the consequences.

[Antlerman]

Plagerism sets me off. It's just one of those "things".

 

 

yeah.....I'm cynical little meanie.

I did check the stories and there are no spelling errors. I would fully suspect they were written separately on a word processor at a different time, which itself is no big whoop. I haven't caught an identity shift in the posts, but I'm being fairly generous these days.

 

Trust me, I know the heart of the cynic all too well! I've heard that term cast my way a few thousand times from my fundi-kid, whenever I respond with total incredulity to his carbon-copy statements out of fundyland! Sometimes, what else can you say?

[Antlerman]

About the stories: I understand that they are the favourite way Amy communicates with us her feelings about christ. However... as I see it, she's starting to use them as a barricade, as a city wall of emotionalism, to defend herself from the attack of reason and logic. Christ is so dreamy, so handsome, so courageous, so knightly, so shining, that she won't even DARE to admit to herself that the bible is chock full of godly (and so, christly) acts of murder, carnage, genocide, torture, cruelty, vulgarity (forcing people to eat crap and so on)... I find it sad, because I'm sure that she's not stupid, and that she could see the shoddy, rusted, stinky armor on the backside of her shining knight, just under his wonderful silky cape... IF she'd only care to open her eyes.

I am recognizing this also, and have an understanding of why the dark side of the stories is being ignored, and why answers to harder questions are few between. I respond the way I do because of that perception I am getting. She is not some clown like SubZer0, who I'll cut off at the knees with little remorse. In part, I see this is as possibly a cathartic journey for her.

 

One thought to this I've had is that the united views of the kind Christ/not-so-kind Christ was a mythology that worked as a whole in the world it was created. In today's world, Christ takes on the face of what society needs him to be. Ironically, even though some claim to take it literally, none really do! Accusations of Christians being liberals because they don't take Christ literally, is just as easily leveled against them by even further right Christians who keep women silent, cut off their genitles for Christ, etc. Everyone creates God in their own image. Not everyone is able to acknowledge it. It's difficult to do. I'm not critical of those who are sincere and just seem to get stuck there, but I am very critical of those who are insincere and try to prove they're right by proving others wrong.

 

As always, my great respects, and thanks for your compliment

[Lycorth]

^..^

[Eponymic]

My story which is one story posted in several parts IS the reason why I feel the Jesus should be worshipped instead of Odin. I found several things in the story of Odin the reminded me of Jesus.

I actually did address the "hard sayings" of Christ on the first page of the story. It about a spiritual war, a war versing good and eveil. And as in the days of old, knights had to swear loyality to the King. It meant they had to love him more than their own families and be ready to leave everything at a moments notice. Jesus is asking for complete love and loyality and if your going to be His knight you have to hate these other things in order to be in the battle. He meant hate in comparison to your love for Him.

 

Hate is still hate. Which means that rather than saying he's striving for equinimity between all beings, that he should be held above others, certain creatures should be valued more than others, and not value everything in creation equally or with equal amounts of love & consideration.

 

You pull the "hard sayings" out of context without really understanding their meaning. We are also told to "honor your mother and father."

 

That's mighty bold to come in here with a bunch of people who in many cases have studied the bible for 20-30 years and say that we don't understand them, or how to use these passages.

 

Your view of Jesus is very unbalanced. His mercy and compassion far out weigh His judgement. You are choosing to ignore the many passages that cause people world wide to at least honor him as a good man or a prophet.

 

Actually, when you really read the bible, there are far many passages about judgement & negative reprecussions than the scant few positives. Sure he may have been a good guy, but that doesn't suddenly make the Bible lovey-dovey.

 

Sin has to be thrown in the fire because it's wicked and evil and it can't have any place in Middle Earth.

 

Talk about taking things out of context. That nasty old sin, which every human has committed (can't really avoid it the way the Bible is set up), needs to get tossed under the rug so we don't have to deal with it. Ew!

 

That's essentially what that sounds like to me. And that's what happens with fear based psychology. You skip over the things that truly scare or challenge you, you think the things that are negative or bad need to get shuttled away rather than dealing with them and really eliminating them.

 

Back to Frodo. his best friend, Sam wise is very much like Jesus, first Sam told Frodo to throw the Ring in the Fire but Frodo was so obsessed by the ring that he put it on then he almost ends up getting killed. Remember the ring is lying in top of the lava in all it's deceptive beauty and Frodo is still looking at it, being enticed by it even though it's in the midst of flaming death. There's Sam,(Jesus the rescuer) leaning over the cliff, stretching out his hand, begging Frodo to grab hold of his hand. Finally Frodo looks away way from the ring, choosing Sam and Sam is able to rescue him. Hell is about loving sin so much that like Smeagul who became Gullum you rather jump in the fire than follow Jesus.

 

Great example of projecting your feelings onto a story. Narnia is based on the Bible, not Lord of the Rings. You're merely projecting your thoughts and making them fit this story.

[Golden Meadows]

If your god really wanted people to have a guidebook for spiritual survival, he must have been tripping on brown acid when he inspired that tripe. What are we to do? Honor our folks or hate them? The Babble™ says both - and you wonder why we won't buy into it.

 

 

This is real entertainment, its better than the movies!

 

Actually you are on to something here. John Allegro who was part of the original team examining the Dead Scrolls published a book in the 1960's which suggested that Jesus was on magic mushrooms!

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/087975757...glance&n=283155

[Antlerman]

Every one!

Except for Antlerman's thrice asked question. I don't want to answer it for you.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=186879

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=187265

[Golden Meadows]

Be careful it's not lies your listening to. There is a beautiful side of evil that comes in the form of lovely god's and godesses. There are elements in your story where there is a Christ figure. He's the One you should follow. He's the One who is real AND He's the one who loves you and will follow you to the gates of Hell. And just like Gollum's voices convinced him that Frodo and Sam were evil so have you been convinced that Jesus is absolutely evil. And you choose to follow a ghost instead.

 

Amy, As a witness to love you impress me greatly but you will never win me over with your apologetics. You are basically coming away with same old xtian demonisation of anything outside of itself. The God and Godesses that you suggest are evil never reach the heights of iniquity of the Bible God. The biggest one of all is the doctrine of hell. You have not given any explanation for the manifest gross injustice of infinite punishment for a finite crime. All the accumluted evil that has ever been done in the world does not add up to one soul being justly punished so. If you are trying to suggest that it is the soul that choses to be punished for all eternity with gentle Jesus trying to persuade them right up until the gates of hell then you representing popular works of piety that have nothing to do with the bibles description of judgment and punishment. Please remember it was gentle Jesus who first gave the world the "Bad News" about the doctrine of hell. If Jesus is potrayed as being evil its though his own words in scriptures. I will listen closely to any explanation you offer to justify hell but please do not use the lord of the rings to obscure what is a straighforward question. If you cannot answer then stop demonising the Gods of other religions and by association all those who recognise them.

[monsterfeets]

Your view of Jesus is very unbalanced. His mercy and compassion far out weigh His judgement. You are choosing to ignore the many passages that cause people world wide to at least honor him as a good man or a prophet.

 

First of all um. No. Atleast, I am not choosing to ignore these good things. In fact I stayed a Christian for years because I saw all these good things and they outweighed the bad.

 

Until one day it hit me. All the people I love are going to hell (everyone I know, all my friends and family, save a few, are not christians. they are atheists or agnostics or pagans). This goes back to the point I was making in another thread. Here, I'll quote myself:

 

I guess in short, my gripe agains Jesus is that he is saying I must Love something I do not agree with. I must understand something that doesn't make sense, I must give up everything that ever meant anything to me. I must resign myself to the knowledge that even though everything I love here and now will be thrown into a fire I will live forever. But then what will I be? You ask what good it is to gain the world and lose your soul. But I ask what good it is to lose yourself and gain eternity. What is the point of living forever without those I love? What is the point of living forever if I'm not even me. But a little Jesus clone. Why would I want that? Even if it -were- true?

 

Amy I can't accept that most people that will be in eternal torment will be people who are basically good people who have not done anything especially evil in their lives, but were just honestly trying to live their lives the best way they knew how. And just happened to come to the wrong conclusion about who to worship, who to call God, etc. That's unacceptable to me. Even if it is true. It's wrong. And if it means I'm going to hell because I can't accept that God would ever be like that, then well, atleast I'll be among friends. I would rather that than bow down to a god who would throw my friends and family into hell for not being able to accept that he was real.

 

But amongst my misery of feeling absolutely crushed. And feeling that I deserved to feel miserable because I was just a worthless dirty sinner. And that everything I loved and knew was meaningless. I called out for help and I was dragged out of that downward spiral by someone other than Jesus. After that I knew the truth.

 

1.)There are many questions I can't answer about why God did certain things. I know that's not the answer you're looking for. I recognize God is God and I, a mortal. There are mysteries that won't be explained until I arrive on the other side of life, including the loss I have suffered. I have used my trials to better understand myself, people around me and God.

 

For me the issue isn't trials or suffering. I try to find the lesson in everything that happens. I try my best to make good of every bad situation and keep a good head on my shoulders. I do not think the universe is out to get me as much as it may seem that way sometimes. I use my trials in the same way as you.

 

2.)I also can't convince you Jesus' sacrifice is far greater and has so many levels to it that you can in no way wrap your brain around it.

 

Amy I understand how it appears to you. I have known the power of that. I have been utterly broken, SHATTERED by the "Truth" and the knowledge and the presence of a holy God. I have been willing to give up my whole life and everything I cherished to Jesus. He's intoxicating. But there was one nagging thing that never let me go. I guess I'm just not good enough for Jesus, because I love my friends and family too much.

 

Any God that asks me to surrender everything that makes me who I am and everything that I love in order to gain his "forgiveness" for something I don't even remember doing at all makes a little warning bell go off in the back of my mind. Why did God make it so hard for me to love him and him above all else if he really wanted to save me? And why would I want to be saved, when so many others are being destroyed? I'd just as soon go to hell myself than to know anyone else was going to be there. Why does God have to be so mysterious and hard to understand anyway? My Gods aren't.

 

3.) Hell...the most hated and misunderstood subject here. Jesus is the Saviour who wants to save people from Hell just like Sam wanted to save Frodo from going after the ring, whatever the ring represents to you. To me it represents sin. But people want that ring, no matter what, even if Someone is screaming. "Throw it in the fire! Take my hand." But you insist in doing it your way. You want the ring and there is no way, no how you will grab hold of His hand.

 

4.) Your way... Gollum's voices convinced him that Frodo and Sam were EVIL and that all they wanted was the "PRECIOUS." His voices told him that the Hobit's didn't care about him and Gollum actually believed a lie. You see the gradual change from Smegal to Gollum and then there's one point he bcomes totally pocessed by the ring and there's no turning back. Gollum has one thing in mind, murdering Sam and Frodo, who are good, and getting that ring.

 

So you're saying my ring, my evil, my sin, is my -love of other people-? I guess I'm just selfish because I cant imagine experiencing joy when so much suffering exists.

 

That I'm going to hell because I love people too much.

 

Be careful it's not lies your listening to. There is a beautiful side of evil that comes in the form of lovely god's and godesses. There are elements in your story where there is a Christ figure. He's the One you should follow. He's the One who is real AND He's the one who loves you and will follow you to the gates of Hell. And just like Gollum's voices convinced him that Frodo and Sam were evil so have you been convinced that Jesus is absolutely evil. And you choose to follow a ghost instead.

 

You do realize we could all say the same thing about your God right? That there is NO WAY to prove that your god is the One who is Real AND the one who Loves us and follows us to the gates of Hell. What if my God is the One who is Real and the one who loves us and follows us to the gates of Hell? My gods are with me everywhere. Tell me, do you have some kind of test that will allow us to uncover the conterfeit? From an objective point of view? Outside of bias? How do you expect anyone to know which God is real outside of their own experiences? You can't say the bible because there are OTHER holy books and texts that far pre-date the bible and that people have had equally profound experiences through. We have to have some way to determine the truth before anyone can expect us to and hold us accountable for it.

 

I do not think Jesus is evil. But the Jesus most people follow, to me, is nothing like the Jesus I see portrayed in the bible, he doesnt look like he really would have looked, he doesn't act like he really acted. He is an imposter. Be sure you are not following a ghost. I was for years.

[Ouroboros]

Everybody gets angry at God and asks "Why?" That's a given when your suffering hard things you can't understand. Why is it that some people grow to love Him more and others end up hating Him? I have my own "stuff." The very thing that you and others seem to insist means nothing, namely the Passion and Suffering of Christ is what helps me when I encounter the hard knocks of life.

Well, my story was a part of my life, and the accident that placed my son in a wheelchair, maybe was the start of the downfall of my faith, but it didn't end my faith. I was a believer for many years (8 to be exact) afterwards. And I refused to ask "why", because I didn't want to know.

 

Understand this, it wasn't the accident or my sons terrible pain and suffering afterwards that caused me to lose my faith. The reason is much larger than that; I probably could list 100s of different reasons that all together (not one separate), but the sum of them all caused the whole house of cards to fall.

 

And I can see now that faith is nothing but faith. Belief is nothing but belief. Don't make an excuse for why you believe, and I should have to make an excuse to why I don't believe.

 

 

Good point A-man.

 

 

 

 

 

Actually I think WE are getting to you. YOU are the one who is feeling a heightened sense of unease. And it is causing the typical "fight or flight" sensation. And so you are projecting your feelings onto us in the hopes that the conversation will shift in a more comfortable direction.

Amy, how many of "you" are there? There's definitely more than one "voice" at work under your signature. Why can't your "friend(s)" post under their own account, instead of yours?

Maybe you're right WR...

 

 

 

 

Basically one must believe in the Apostles Creed. Any denial of His Virgin Birth, His death for our sins, Resurrection and Ascension, Second Coming I consider error. To preach opposite these truths is heritical. As for all the Bible stories being absolutely true, I believe they are true. However, I do know some Christians that have differing opinions on creation. Was it a literal six days or something else? So no, if some Christians don't take everything in the Bible absolutely literal I don't think they are in error. But belief in basic Christian doctrine is a must.

Actually, bascially your faith is this:

that whatever YOU Amy Marie believe, I have to believe to be saved, because you know the truth, and I don't,

and whatever I believe is false, only because you believe it to be false.

 

In essence, Amy Marie, you have the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so say Amy Marie, and the evidence is Amy's belief.

 

And Hans do NOT have the truth of whatever in any instance or concept, so say Amy Marie, because that is Amy's belief.

 

Amy, you know what I call that?

 

Pride.

[Golden Meadows]

Ami:-I know that horrible things happend in the OT but that was because of the LAW but now mercy has come. Mercy.

But nothing approaching the doctrine of hell - that was given to the world by Jesus in the NT. If Jesus is just as you claim explain the justice of eternal punishment for a temporal crime. The God and Goddess's you have demonised never put forward anything as evil as this.

 

 

[white_raven23]

If your child was walking across the street and was about to be hit by a car wouldn't you warn them? Yes! Because you love them.

 

And then, when your kid doesn't listen, and you have to run and snatch the kid out of the road..... you smack his ass and yell "What did I just TELL you? I SAID get out of the damn road! Now I have to set your shoes on fire with your feet still in them."

 

And considering the "kid" is three years old........ is this response really fair?

 

No.

 

We call that "abuse" now.

[Ouroboros]

Hell is God's justice. He made the way out.

Rom 9

15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?

 

He only shows mercy on whoever he chose to show mercy upon.

 

Lady Justitia is blind. But God isn't blind. He make his own arbitrary decisions on whoever he wants, that's not justice, that's despotism.

 

Justice is fair, even and equal. Not blinded by subjective opinions.

 

So what is the crime that he convict us of?

 

You say that God's not being fair. It wasn't fair for Him to suffer in our place.

It was his own choice. No one forced him.

 

No one forced him to make humans either, or make them with the capability to sin or not understand the consequences of sin. Adam and Eve failed because of lack of education and understanding. They didn't know or understand what the heck God was talking about. Give a loaded gun to a child, then convict him and send him to death row, because he played with it and shot someone.

[Asuryan]

But He does love you Monsterfeets! LOVES YOU! And loves your family, friends and all you love. Jesus came to save us from the fire where sin will be eventually thrown.

 

 

Let's see.

1) Jesus creates hell.

2) Jesus creates the concept of sin in such a way that everyone is a sinner, even if they did nothing, simply for being born.

3) Jesus decides that sinners will spend eternity in hell.

4) Jesus decides that sinners (100% world population, let's remember) can be saved from hell if they sacrifice to him some animals to wash their sins.

5) Jesus decides that the animal sacrifices are not to his liking anymore, and says that sinners can be saved from hell if they will worship you from now on forever and ever amen.

 

How is this different from the following situation?

 

1) A guy called J. comes and throws gasoline all over and around my house, then he starts a fire.

2) While I'm in my room, I hear J. screaming that he just decided that I am a bad person, a very bad person because I did some things J. doesn't like.

3) J. says that bad people should burn alive very slowly, and that's why he lighted my house on fire.

4) J. comes inside my house, covered with an asbestos suit, and tells me that he has another one ready for me if I sacrifice my cat to him.

5) J. suddenly decides that it's not good anymore to sacrifice housecats to him. I'll now be safe IF... I'll kneel down in front of him, kiss his feet, and swear I'll be his worshipper (his slave) forever and ever. Namely he will have future and total control of my sex life, my actions and so on. If I won't do that, he'll burn down my house again in the future, leaving me to burn.

 

Really. WHERE's the difference?

Is it just in the fact that one is called Jesus and the other one is called J.?

And where are my Flood answers? I don't want you to tell me the book's explanations of those actions... I want to hear your answers. Your opinions. Your hypotesis, about the questions on the Flood I posed to you. I don't want to think that you are content of repeating "I don't know and I don't even want to try searching the answer, because god will spoonfeed it to me soon enough!". Because at least to me, you're doing just this.

 

People are only seeing the physical aspect of His sufferings. They don't understand the many levels of what He endured.These things are not understood by the natural mind only but they are deeply spiritual. You can not understand the hard sayings of Jesus unless you are close to Him.

 

You're talking as if you were the ONLY one that can understand his sufferings, while we can't.

I'm sure that a worshipper of Greek Gods could come to you and tell you that Prometheus has suffered much, much more than Jesus, on levels you can't even start imagining. Would you accept his word about it? No? Well, so either can't we. But remember... we were just like you... so stop talking as if you were somehow superior to us with your deep spirituality.

 

He is suffering in His heart because you have shut your ears and are grasping for that ring, j

 

He's all powerful.

He can make us open our ears if he wants to.

Does he want us to go to hell? No?

Then why doesn't he open our ears?

I won't accept a "Because he respects your free will" as an answer, because in the OT he shows off his power and presence to people who don't believe in him. Would you say that in those cases, he overrides those people's free will? If he did it then, why can't he do it again?

 

Jesus is a FAIR judge. Every story is different. He will judge with fairness but sin has to be punished.

 

Does this mean that, say, Varokhar, Hansolo, me, Monsterfeet, etc, won't go to hell?

 

Some people here are convinced that Jesus is EVIL.

 

But you did nothing so far to explain to us why you think that he's not EVIL.

 

I know that horrible things happend in the OT but that was because of the LAW but now mercy has come. Mercy.

 

Say it again, but this time, say it with open eyes.

"I know that GOD did horrible things in the OT".

Say it again with me...

"I know that God did horrible things in the OT".

 

If your child was walking across the street and was about to be hit by a car wouldn't you warn them?

 

Jesus is the one that has built the car. Jesus is the one that drives the car. Jesus is the one that has decided that his car WILL kill the child. Jesus at the same time warns the child. But WTF!! JESUS HAS PUT THE F*CKING CAR THERE AND HAS SET IT TO KILL THE CHILD IN THE FIRST PLACE!!

[monsterfeets]

But He does love you Monsterfeets! LOVES YOU! And loves your family, friends and all you love. Jesus came to save us from the fire where sin will be eventually thrown. It doesn't matter what we've done. All we need to do is admit we have done wrong and have broken God's holy law. But there are so many other voices here clouding the cross, the greatist proof of His Love. People are only seeing the physical aspect of His sufferings. They don't understand the many levels of what He endured.

 

These things are not understood by the natural mind only but they are deeply spiritual. You can not understand the hard sayings of Jesus unless you are close to Him.

 

I know regardless of the choices that people have made here about Jesus He will continue to plead with you. He gave everything on the cross and He is suffering in His heart because you have shut your ears and are grasping for that ring, just like Gollum. The ring could also mean the untruths that the Evil One is whispering in your ear:

 

"He tricks us. He hates us. He hates your family. He's unjust. He doesn't care!"

 

Jesus is a FAIR judge. Every story is different. He will judge with fairness but sin has to be punished. Of cousre if there is spousal abuse, emotional abuse, there are things about this too in the Bible. But he also doesn't want to see broken families, emotional scars and on and on. He will consider our suffering.

 

Some people here are convinced that Jesus is EVIL.

 

I know that horrible things happend in the OT but that was because of the LAW but now mercy has come. Mercy.

 

"Through Moses came the Law. But grace and truth came through Jesus Chrsit."

 

Er. That's nice. But it's sort of beside my whole point. (and my gods LOVE ME!11 too)

 

Why does sin HAVE to be punished? I don't even believe sin exists. It just does not make sense to me. The bad things I've done I've already paid my dues for. Or apologized for or atoned for in some way. I don't just do bad things then run away and pretend they didn't happen. I'm not like that, I take responsbility for my actions. It is not hard to be a good person. It's much harder for me to be a "sinner" as you would say. It's hard for me to find any reason that I ought to be thrown into hell. So why should I believe God is like that? Because some book says so?

 

Why do we "deserve to be punished"? What did we do that was SO BAD that we all DESERVE to be tortured for eternity by default? That's utterly rediculous. Honestly. Justice is not punishing someone infinitely for doing something that's -in their nature- to do. If we're sinful by nature then we shouldn't be automatically punished for it. Justice would be punishment that fit the crime. Punishment teaches a lesson. Hell does not serve a purpose because it lasts forever, true "punishment" is supposed to be corrective in nature. Hell doesn't correct, it just consumes, forever and ever. My Gods do not punish people endlessly. At worst they wipe them from existance itself. But this is reserved for the truly wicked. And I personally believe that's a very small number of people, who have no hope of ever learning or growing. I like to think everyone gets a second chance, or continous chances. That everyone has the potential to be a better person.

 

Not to mention some of the things that are "sins" do not follow as bad things. I don't think theres anything wrong with "having lustful thoughts" for example. As long as they don't consume you. And the list of sins I do not commit is much longer than the list of sins I do commit.

 

My point isn't really that Jesus is unfair even though he is - I suppose if he were god he could do whatever he wanted and make his own rules. I just do not think any god would make rules like that. My point is more that there's no good reason to believe in him over any other god I've experienced. In fact there are more reasons to believe in the other ones. Because they are more real to me and make more sense to me. If God is going to punish me for that then I guess I'll just have to deal with it when the time comes. But I do not believe he IS going to punish me for that. What good would come from punishing me for being honest with myself? A god that sends me to hell by default, no questions asked, and expects me to just be OK with that, is not the kind of god I want to worship.

[Asuryan]

Everyone,

 

My story which is one story posted in several parts IS the reason why I feel the Jesus should be worshipped instead of Odin.

Which of these alternative statements best describe your feelings:

 

1. My story which is one story posted in several parts IS the reason why I feel I should worship Jesus instead of Odin, but I recognize others may find the same sort of meaning for themselves in worshipping Odin as I do in worshipping Jesus. My beliefs are right for me, their beliefs are right for them. We are all equals.

 

2. My story which is one story posted in several parts IS the reason why I feel ALL people should be worshipping Jesus instead of Odin. What is right for me should be right for all people.

 

3. My story which is one story posted in several parts IS the reason why I feel ALL people should be worshipping Jesus instead of Odin. This is right for all people because all other God's are false gods and Jesus is the only real one.

 

4. (Other)

 

I'm really trying to get you to discuss this on this level, as this is the real heart of everyone's question for you, as I see it. Do you feel others are wrong?

 

It's number three.

 

I'll say two things here.

1) I knew... I just knew, that amy marie would've chosen the 3rd option. I had no doubt about it.

2) I feel sorry for Antlerman. I know he was really rooting for number 1. With this answer, and the one about the core tenets of christianity that just HAVE to be believed in and heresy (virgin birth, physical resurrection etc), I can't help but feel that he'll be mightily disappointed.

 

Here we go with a huge discussion about hell.

 

 

 

Still waiting for your answers. No, amy marie, the fact that you don't like to be contradicted is not enough for me to leave you alone. I want to hear your answers, your thoughts, about what I asked you. If you don't want to answer because your bible doesn't provide you answers, that's fine. But wake up, we are in a message board - talking, discussing, is what we DO. If you don't want to answer because the bible doesn't hold any answers, cool, that way I will be able to hear YOUR thoughts, amy marie, YOUR thoughts, not just you repeating what you've been taught like a worn-out, repetitive old LP. What do you really think about what I wrote? Do you think that my analogy about a guy coming here and burning down my house is wrong? If so, why? Please don't just repeat like a parrot "because jesus is so good and sweet", point me the sentences you feel are not correct, and explain to me why you don't think the similitude is right. Then go on... and keep answering the rest of the post.

 

I know you can do it... if you want to.

[Astreja]

1) I knew... I just knew, that amy marie would've chosen the 3rd option. I had no doubt about it.

An unfortunate choice, IMHO, because I see no point in pursuing further dialogue with someone who insults my family and heritage by calling them "false". It isn't the first time that someone has dissed my dad (who does not need the Valkyrie Geek Kidlet to defend his honour), but it's still upsetting. I don't need that kind of anger in my life.

[Lizard]

Ami:-I know that horrible things happend in the OT but that was because of the LAW but now mercy has come. Mercy.

But nothing approaching the doctrine of hell - that was given to the world by Jesus in the NT. If Jesus is just as you claim explain the justice of eternal punishment for a temporal crime. The God and Goddess's you have demonised never put forward anything as evil as this.

 

 

 

Please explain the madness of God who came to earth and took on the punishment our sins deserved and made a way so we would have to go to this place of torment. Yet people insist on going there because they don't want the way of escape.

 

Hell is God's justice. He made the way out.

 

You say that God's not being fair. It wasn't fair for Him to suffer in our place.

Can you not see, Amy? HE (according to your holy book) created the whole mess to begin with!

 

Lets see..start in the Garden of Eden:

Let me place you folks here. Now, you can eat all the food here, EXCEPT this ONE tree. Don't eat that! If you do, you will know good and evil.

 

Ok..so they chose to do "evil."...however, how could they have "chosen" evil, when they hadn't yet ate of that tree? It WASN'T evil-it was curiosity. They didn't know evil yet. Until they ate, then they realized they were nekkid. That was the worst thing for them, cuz then gawd would SEE them nekkid..

 

But, gawd had mercy and killed a couple animals to hide the fact that they were nekkid. Of course, if your a fundie Baptist, then you believe that was the first "blood" sacrifice.

 

Can you really not see how asinine this is?

 

For myself, I don't "hate" Jesus..or think he is "evil"..any more than I think Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny is evil, or hate them.

 

Some of the things you are putting forth.."you just LOVE the sin.." is so..what's the word? Cliche? Yep, that's it! "You just don't want to believe so you can live an immoral life and commit lots of sins!"

 

PULEEZE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lycorth]

^..^