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Why Should I Worship Jeezus(tm) And Not Odin?


Lycorth
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I don't understand that if its "just in our nature" to rebel and be sinful, why it is evil or bad?

 

Is it evil that tigers eat people? I mean yeah it sucks for the people that get eaten. But tigers gotta eat too. They aren't being intentionally evil. It's just their nature.

 

"Selfish desire - lust. Greed, gossip, stealing, lies, hatred, lawlessness, darkness"

 

That's funny. I don't desire to do any of those things. Lust just sort of happens. But I don't sit around thinking about wanting to be lustful. But I don't want to lie or gossip or steal or hate. Sometimes I get angry at people and want to kick them in the shins but i'm not going to KILL anyone. I wouldn't say that me having told a lie once in my life makes me a liar. Actually I honestly cannot remember ever telling a lie that I didn't immediately tell the truth about afterwards. I can't stand to lie, it makes me physically ill. I stole something once in kindergarten. I think that's it right there. That time I took an extra toy from the prize box and smuggled it in my coat pocket. That's where my fate was sealed to an eternity of my skin being melted off.

 

What about all the other forms of Christianity? Are they all wrong except your specific one. I just caught something on the History channel that made me think of this. It was called "Banned from the Bible" about all the gnostic gospels. So who got Jesus right? What about the Mormons? And who knows, maybe the Jews were right about him, and he was just a big fake.

 

Theres just too many questions. Too many what ifs and could bes to color everything black or white. It's a big world and an even bigger universe full of diversity and mystery with countless gods and religions of every flavor. I just cannot honestly believe in one being the One True Way after all the people of different faiths I've met who honestly believe they are following the right path.

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First, let me post Amy's reply in full here so that it can be read properly. Her BBCode is terrible.

 

1. Yes He is.

2. He didn't create another God. Only God is absolutely perfect. He was created without sin but also with free will. He tested their free will.

3. Yes. This happened in the Garden when man disobeyed God's law.

4. Yes I do.

4a. The sinful nature comes from the fall in the Garden when the curse came upon Man and we were seperated from God. One just has to look at a child having a temper tantrum to see our nature is to rebell. It's just in our nature.

5. No. There is no evil in Heaven.

5a. Because will we be like Christ. We will then put on Chrsit and there is no sin in Him. We will then know Him face to Face without the veil of this earth. No evil exists in Heaven so Satan will not be there to entice us.

6. Absolute purity. Absolute holiness. (holy means to be serperate.)

Absolute truth. The perfect balance of Law and Order. Mercy and Justice. Unblemished Light. The absense of Evil.

 

7. Selfish desire - lust. Greed, gossip, stealing, lies, hatred, lawlessness, darkness

 

8. Yes. They are.

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Amy has established her premises:

1. Adam was created without a sinful nature.

2. Adam was given free will.

3. God tested his creation’s choices.

4. Man disobeyed God.

5. Our sinful nature arose as a result of this disobedience.

 

It is conclusive to Amy that based on this history, man clearly has a sinful nature. Although she gives the absolute worst example, she has the right idea.

 

Amy’s idea (although it really isn’t her idea) is glaringly contradictory. We’ve established from point 1 that Adam did NOT have a sinful nature.

 

I’m going to paint this very easily for you Amy.

 

1. Adam was created without a sinful nature.

2. If 1 is true, then Adam would have had no desire to sin.

 

Why would Adam sin if he had no sinful nature?

 

Frequently, apologists look towards the idea of free will to provide a scapegoat to this inconsistency. In order to establish coherency, let us ask ourselves “will there be sin in heaven?” Of course, Amy has provided us with that answer. No. We will have no desire to sin because we have Christ within us.

 

This leads us to the second inconsistency.

 

Why would God not just instill within us Christ at the very beginning?

 

It is reasonable to assume that a being who is smarter than us is also at the very least as rational as us. It would only be rational to conclude that God would have given us this Christliness beforehand so that we would not be tempted by Satan.

 

This also leads us to ask “Will we have free will in heaven?”

 

If yes, then how exactly is free will the trump card to this apologetic nightmare?

If no, then why is free will so important now if God just wants us to give it up and be with him? Why not just create us AS robots in the first place?

 

Inconsistent, irrational, incoherent.

 

Amy’s definitions:

 

Good: Absolute purity. Absolute holiness. (holy means to be serperate.)

Absolute truth. The perfect balance of Law and Order. Mercy and Justice.

 

Absolutely incoherent –

1. Something that is pure is absolutely pure by definition….no need for redundancy here, Amy.

2. Something that is absolutely separate is not involved in anything of this reality then. If God is absolutely holy then nothing in the bible could have come to be.

 

Evil: Selfish desire - lust. Greed, gossip, stealing, lies, hatred, lawlessness, darkness

 

Listing examples is not defining what something is, Amy. Try again.

 

Let me also add this verse:

 

13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

 

I see Amy Marie is writing a response...allow me to predict that she will dodge these assertions and make an appeal to God's ways not being our ways.

 

All the information is there, Amy...I'm just connecting the dots.

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As I already said. God created man but he wasn't perfect. To be perfect would make Him God. To put Christ's obedience in him would make him Christ, thus he would be perfect. You can't take God's gift of free will out of the picture. Man didn't know temptation because there was nothing to tempt him until Satan came. Because man chose evil sin came became part of his nature. It all comes back to free will.

 

No it doesn't come back to free will.

 

You said in your previous post:

 

5. No. There is no evil in Heaven.

5a. Because will we be like Christ. We will then put on Chrsit and there is no sin in Him. We will then know Him face to Face without the veil of this earth. No evil exists in Heaven so Satan will not be there to entice us.

 

There will be no evil in heaven because we will be like Christ.

You are now saying that God wont do that?

 

Satan will not be there to entice us.

Why would God let man be tempted, I just gave you a passage which says that God does not tempt people. Tempting by proxy is still tempting, Amy.

 

Free will is irrelevant in this.

 

What's wrong with my definition of Evil? Evil manifest itself in these ways.

 

So? You're not defining it, you're just listing how evil occurs.

 

By God being seperate I mean there is no one on earth that can come close to His perfection. In the way He is a Seperate being unto Himself.

 

We are all separate beings unto ourselves.

 

It is by our own free will we choose to go to heaven but in heaven you won't want to sin. You will want to be there.

 

So will we no longer have free will when we are in heaven? Are we abandoning our right to choose in order to be with God, Amy? Are we suddenly going to be robots in heaven?

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Guest Shiva H. Vishnu

It should be noted that before Adam and Eve ate from the TOKOGAE they didn't even know the difference between right and wrong, and wouldn't until they ate from the tree. How can you be said to have freewill if you have no capacity to understand right and wrong? And how in the hell can you punish billions and billions of people for what a couple of ignorant, full-grown, conscienceless babies did one fateful afternoon in some undisclosed garden location? Ridiculous, no matter how you slice it.

 

Let's not forget that the principle sin in all of christianity was seeking knowledge. Is it any surprise that amy is impervious to knowledge?

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It should be noted that before Adam and Eve ate from the TOKOGAE they didn't even know the difference between right and wrong, and wouldn't until they ate from the tree. How can you be said to have freewill if you have no capacity to understand right and wrong? And how in the hell can you punish billions and billions of people for what a couple of ignorant, full-grown, conscienceless babies did one fateful afternoon in some undisclosed garden location? Ridiculous, no matter how you slice it.

 

Let's not forget that the principle sin in all of christianity was seeking knowledge. Is it any surprise that amy is impervious to knowledge?

 

Good point, Shiva.

 

A being who cannot know right and wrong cannot make a moral decision. That's why we don't execute retards or babies.

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As I already said. God created man but he wasn't perfect. To be perfect would make Him God. To put Christ's obedience in him would make him Christ, thus he would be perfect. You can't take God's gift of free will out of the picture. Man didn't know temptation because there was nothing to tempt him until Satan came. Because man chose evil sin came became part of his nature. It all comes back to free will.

Sorry. Perfection alone does not a god make. The three basic tenets of bible-god are omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence. A perfect game of bowling is not god...at least to me but I won't stand in your way if you wish to bow to it as the latest and greatest part of the godhead.

 

To stand by your reasoning is to say we were made flawed. Doomed from the start. For a perfect designer to make an imperfect product is not believable. Not performing at his maximum potential at all times makes him less than perfect. We were also made in his image. Depending on your take on this it could mean the original also contains a flaw that is reflected in us. Since we know for a fact that we lie then the flaw we reflect is lying and all statements regarding bible-god's perfection are, in fact, fabrications? The circular reasoning being complete. He is flawed and so we are flawed and on it goes.

 

It would appear your logic is impaired. Of course Asimov will be more than happy to discuss that with you.

 

mwc

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It should be noted that before Adam and Eve ate from the TOKOGAE they didn't even know the difference between right and wrong, and wouldn't until they ate from the tree. How can you be said to have freewill if you have no capacity to understand right and wrong?

 

Exactly. Reading that part of the bible literally it follows, and painfully obviously so, that jehoover is a sadist.

And once you permit any amount of interpretation, why not go all the way and assume that the whole story is kind of a parable... for example, a parable about the coming of age and accepting all rights and duties of an adult - no bonus anymore for you, so get out of paradise?

 

And how in the hell can you punish billions and billions of people for what a couple of ignorant, full-grown, conscienceless babies did one fateful afternoon in some undisclosed garden location? Ridiculous, no matter how you slice it.

 

Absolutely. Punishing anyone, in whatever way, for a crime she didn't commit is wrong. Doing so knowingly (as an omniscient god would have done, obviously) is simply evil... pure sadism. :vent:

 

Let's not forget that the principle sin in all of christianity was seeking knowledge. Is it any surprise that amy is impervious to knowledge?

 

One gotta grant her one thing at least - she's persistent. Let's face it, most self-proclaimed "chosen ones" would have long given up and left... :scratch:

Makes me wonder whether there's some other reason besides wanting to (re-)convert some of us that makes her stay...

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(Quoting Amy)"People go to Hell because they love darkness rather than the light and disobey God's holy law. They choose hell."

 

I guess if knoweldge and independance, not to mention my friends, family, fiction, art, nature, and just about everything that doesn't have anything directly to do with Jesus is "darkness" then yeah. I love darkness more than light. Ofcourse that doesn't leave much to define "Jesus" and "light" with. Love? I have that. Life? I have that. Truth. If we knew what truth was we wouldnt be arguing about it on the internet.

 

Honestly if I really thought the Christian god was real and it was all literally true I would accept it. I have before. But it was out of fear not love. I cannot honestly allow myself to be part of a belief system out of fear. Should i just go back to being miserable so I can hopefully save myself from the flames of hell one day? Forget everyone and everything else? Seems like it would be a selfish and meaningless gesture to me.

 

I am not choosing hell. I don't want to go to hell. Who wants to go to hell? What I'm choosing is this world and myself over a God I can't even comprehend and who can't be bothered to explain anything to me to save me from the hell he so desperately doesn't want me to go to. Me and this world are all I've ever known. Me and my experiences are all I have to determine what love and light and right and wrong and happiness and sadness are. I can't take anyone elses word for it I have to figure out what works for me and God should understand that. He created me. If not. Oh well? What can I do about it?? I can't just accept it blindly. Nothing short of some kind of crazy undeniable miracle would bring me back (but that shouldnt be too hard for god now should it?)

 

"I wouldn't want to see that happen to anyone. Jesus has taken the punishment for your sins so why would you say, "No thanks. I'll do it my way. I know better than God Almighty."

 

Erm. If ever I become aware of the objective fact that I am indeed, sinful, and do, indeed, deserve punishment. I will accept that. But as far as I can tell I don't deserve to go to hell. If Jesus would just come explain this to me in a way that made sense we wouldn't be having this problem.

 

I am not trying to take the punishment for my own sins or become perfect. I don't believe in sin and I don't believe in perfection and I don't believe in an "almighty" God. This, apparently, is enough to warrant going to hell. Which I also don't believe but it's part of the Christian worldview. There is no evidence for me to assume the Christian worldview is the correct one. I look at nature and come to a much different conclusion than Christianity. And so have billions of other people. So obviously it's not that obvious. It's the very fact that it is not obviously obvious, does not make logical sense, and that there are so many other versions of it, plus millions of other people who don't even believe in it or who have never even heard of it, that leads me to believe that it can't be true. If it were true it would be obvious and logical and easy to understand. We wouldn't even need a huge long book that most people don't even read. We also wouldn't need missionaries for all the unfortunate souls whos sole purpose in existance seems to be to be born, to starve to death and die, and just go to hell after that because god apparently relies on -us- to get things done. I mean he could have just dropped some pamphlets out of the sky or waited until TV was invented and made a big public announcement but I guess that would have made it a little too obvious.

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One of the greatest crimes of Christianity is using the concept of sin, hell, and Satan to terrorize yourng children. It is cruel and inhumane to take a child's innocent trust and make them afraid and force them to believe they are bad people because they told they sinful and wicked constantly.

 

We had a Christian on here who compared his four month old baby to Hitler. What kind of a religion is Christianity when followers believe that their babies are evil because they are unable to believe in Jesus?

 

This is exactly right and it's my biggest issue with this religion. I spent more than 20 years scared to the point of nuerosis that I would screw up and go to hell or that my friends and family would. I had this poison planted in my head when I was too young to be rational about it. This is why I will never be tollerant of the xtian belief system. I will not discriminate against christians, nor will I hate them but I do and will hate their beliefs and the fact that they terrorize their children. It's sick.

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On the other hand...Perhaps you enter the house, see his lifeless body and then say, "I don't care. This is not the way I choose to be saved. My sins don't need to be punished and you ignore the Law of God until it's too late. You board up all the doors nad windows not wishing to see the light of truth shine in on you. Every day and night Jesus comes to your house pleading "Please! Let me in. Judgement is coming! Accept what I've done for you and it will Passover you."

What a mess of an answer. I thought he was already inside...having killed himself, dead on the floor? Debt fully paid?

 

Here's how it really goes:

 

On the other hand...Perhaps you enter the house, see his lifeless body and then say, "I don't case. This is not the way I choose to be saved. My sins don't need to be punished and you ignore the Law of God until it's too late. You board up all the doors and windows not wishing to see the light of truth shine in on you. Every day and night the corpse of jesus rots away on your floor until he magically springs to life, whips out his Zippo and lights your house on fire with you in it! 'Take that for rejecting my sacrifice asshole!' And he disappears in a puff of pink smoke while you burn and burn unable to escape since jesus has posted guards at all possible exits to ensure your torture is complete.

 

A sacrifice is a sacrifice whether or not I accept it. If you pay my electric bill for me it's paid if I thank you or not. It's paid even if I come over and piss on your dog after the fact. Once it's paid. It's paid. But just like your "salvation" It needs to be paid each month so I'd better not do those things if I want you to keep coming up with the cash. I'd better kiss your ass so you cover my bill. So is the sin bill a one time bill as the bible says or is it a re-occuring bill? If it's paid then jesus can suck it because it's paid. If it's re-occuring then the bible lies because we have to keep kissing ass and the whole thing with the cross meant shit. If it's paid but I have to pay him back then it's not free. If it's paid and I'm an ass because I'm not expressing gratitude, well, then I'm an ass but that's the chance he took.

 

mwc

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It should be noted that before Adam and Eve ate from the TOKOGAE they didn't even know the difference between right and wrong, and wouldn't until they ate from the tree. How can you be said to have freewill if you have no capacity to understand right and wrong? And how in the hell can you punish billions and billions of people for what a couple of ignorant, full-grown, conscienceless babies did one fateful afternoon in some undisclosed garden location? Ridiculous, no matter how you slice it.

 

Let's not forget that the principle sin in all of christianity was seeking knowledge. Is it any surprise that amy is impervious to knowledge?

 

Good point, Shiva.

 

A being who cannot know right and wrong cannot make a moral decision. That's why we don't execute retards or babies.

Nice to see you both agree with the conclusion I came to back on page 9... :grin:

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Warning. Apocalyptically long post!!! :eek:

Let's see.

 

1) Jesus creates hell.

hell was created for the devil and his angels and to punish sin.

 

We all know about his reasons for creating it. This doesn't change the fact that for your religion, Jesus created Hell.

So in Example B. Jesus is the one who lights my house on fire. Notice the similitude?

If Jesus hadn't created hell, or if he had created it only for Satan and his angels, I wouldn't be in danger of ending up there for eternity. Likewise: if J. hadn't set fire to my house, I wouldn't be in danger of burning alive. Now you get it?

 

1) A guy called J. comes and throws gasoline all over and around my house, then he starts a fire

Jesus didn't throw fire on your house. People go to Hell because they love darkness rather than the light and disobey God's holy law. They choose hell.

 

Yes, he did. As mentioned above, Jesus creating hell and deciding arbitrarily the rules of sin, is tantamount to someone deciding arbitrarily that I don't deserve to live and setting my house on fire.

Can't you see it, Amy Marie? It was Jesus who created Hell. It was Jesus who decided that everyone not embracing his religion, no matter if he/she's a perfectly good person, will end up in hell. That is why I say that Jesus DID indeed throw fire on my house.

 

2) While I'm in my room, I hear J. screaming that he just decided that I am a bad person, a very bad person because I did some things J. doesn't like.

We have all broken God's commandments. We have all sinned.

 

First of all: the flood was supposed to be the answer to the sin problem. Washing away the sin from the world forever. It didn't work. So, gratuitous carnage, wouldn't you think? Seeing as it didn't even work... so many lives in the dustbin for nothing, eh?

Now that I think about it, Jesus was supposed to wash away my sins too. That's cool, then my sins are indeed washed away and I don't need to worry about what I do and what I believe, right?

Because, if Jesus sacrificed himself (for 3 days, then he got tired of sacrificing himself, maybe), to wash our (even my) sins away, if my sins aren't washed away his sacrifice has been completely useless.

2: this doesn't change the fact that J. is burning down my house because in his eyes, and following his personal interpretation of sin and guilt, I have sinned.

 

3) J. says that bad people should burn alive very slowly, and that's why he lighted my house on fire

Again people choose sin rather than holiness.

 

Amy, if a perfect stranger came to you... and told you that you need to stop eating pork, and cover your face with a veil, and pray 5 times per day... otherwise, you are a sinner... what would you do? Would you listen him? Would you start doing what he asks you?

I think not.

Then another guy, let's call him M. comes to your own house, spills gasoline around, and lights it on fire. When you ask him "why?" he answers: "You chose sin rather than holiness". Would you like that answer? Would you then say "well yes it was my fault, you are right, burn my house to the ground as much as you want, please."?

M. "sin" system and J. "sin" system are both perfectly arbitrarily. M has decided that eating pork and drinking wine is a sin. J. has decided that not worshipping him and worshipping other deities is a sin.

 

4) J. comes inside my house, covered with an asbestos suit, and tells me that he has another one ready for me if I sacrifice my cat to him.

He didn't come into the house with an asbestos suit.

 

Ever wonder why I chose to write J. instead of Jesus? Because I was making a point.

I presented to you two separate examples. The first one shows Jesus' behavior. The second one shows how a human being (a common person, with nothing godly) would act, if he tried to behave just like GodChrist did regarding the hell issue.

So: J. is a *person*. Do you get it now? J. is a human being. Call him Jay if you like it best.Trying to dispense hell to sinners himself, using his own version of hell (burning down houses) to punish sinners (anyone who does things he doesn't like).

There is a reason I chose to make 2 separate examples. To introduce to you this question: why do you justify Jesus' behavior, and you wouldn't justify J.'s behavior if he came down to your house and started burning it down to the ground, instead calling him a madman?

However, I can't decide if you really didn't understand my point about Jesus and J. and the 2 separate examples, or if you understood it and decided that it would've been much simpler to just pretend you didn't rather than acknowledging it.

 

He came as a man laying down his rights as God,feeling all the pain you feel. Instead of you having to sacrifice your cat he becomes the sacrifice.

 

*sighs*

*talks slowly*

See, Amy marie, I talked about a cat in point 4, because in the OT it was necessary to sacrifice animals to wash away sins. Check point 4 in example A. You see? Animal sacrifice in the OT. The 2 examples are specular, point by point. Are you wondering why are they so specular? I'll tell you. It is because I really wanted you to confront the 2 examples to one another, point by point. Jesus creates hell - J. lights my house on fire... and so on. So. Since J. is a human being acting just like JesusGod, he would start by asking an animal sacrifice. I said a housecat because it is an easy animal to find in a house, and I do have a housecat in my home.

I do address the issue of Jesus in the NT. THAT is what point 5 is for.

 

The Bible says that "He became sin." All the punishment we deserved He took willingly.

 

Does not compute.

- If "He became sin", and if "The devil is sin", does this mean that for those meager 3 days, Jesus became the devil? If A becomes B, and B = C, then A becomes C...

- All the punishment we deserved? Super! Then this means that I won't end up in hell, since he took willingly my own punishment in hell! Why didn't you say this before? This is good news, let's PARTY! I'll go kill myself a couple nuns to celebrate, then be back here.

 

5) J. suddenly decides that it's not good anymore to sacrifice housecats to him. I'll now be safe IF... I'll kneel down in front of him, kiss his feet, and swear I'll be his worshipper (his slave) forever and ever. Namely he will have future and total control of my sex life, my actions and so on. If I won't do that, he'll burn down my house again in the future, leaving me to burn

You come back in the house and find his lifeless body and you realize that instead of having to sacrifice your cat he's taken the punishment and he has died in your place.

 

*sighs again.*

...no. As I said, point 5 example A, from a certain point forward, Godjesus decides that it's not good anymore to sacrifice animals to him to wash away sins.

Let us imagine this person, this Jay, and me, discussing the fine points of slavery and salvation.

J: "Hello, lady. I love you."

A: "Then why the f*ck did you light my house on fire?"

J: "Because you are a sinner, thus you deserve to roast slowly and excruciatingly in these flames. But I love you, I really love you."

A: "Oh yeah?"

J: "Yes. You see, I died for you."

A: "...no you didn't. You're perfectly alive."

J: "Well, yes, it was sorta boring after a while, so I came back. But that's not the point: I love you so much that I don't really want to see you burning alive here."

A: "Then why the f*ck did you start the fire?? Are you schizophrenic?"

J: "I HAD to start the fire because you are a sinner."

A: "But... ah, it's useless. So what do you want now? Have you come to gloat?"

J: "No, I've come to offer you an asbestos suit."

A: "Super, give it to me!"

J: "Eh, first of all you have to sign a contract with me."

A: "Huh... a contract?"

J: "Yes. See..." *produces contract* "This says that in order to get the asbestos suit from me, you have to adhere to the following points. Point a: you will love me, more than anyone else, forever and ever, no matter what I do, becoming in fact my slav.. oh, I meant, my sheep... Point b: you will adhere to a strict code of conduct, namely don't kiss people of your same sex, don't doubt the fact I've born from a virgin, don't eat shrimps or crab..."

A: *stares dumbfounded*

J: *after about 1 hour of listing points* "Oh. And if you break some of my rules, I'll be back and light your house on fire again. Then you will be able to apply for another asbestos suit, provided you do adequate penance for your rulebreaking."

A: "WTF?"

J: "Come again?"

A: "Are you crazy? You're a control freak! You could've just avoided burning my house, you know!"

J: "That cannot be avoided, because I decided that every one going against my rules deserves to have its house burned down to the ground, with him or her inside it, roasting very very slowly."

A: ":..eh, so just decide that no one deserves to have its house burned down to the ground anymore."

J: "I can't."

A: "why not?"

J: "Because I can do everything... but I don't want to, heh heh."

A: "Ah, go away."

J: "Are you sure you don't want my love?"

A: "You're a madman, what kind of love would THAT be? I'd just stay with you subserviently, as a sheep, right, on my elbows & knees in front of you forever, only because of my fear of a slow and painful death? Know what, f*ck you, go away."

J: "It will be a looong... slooow... paainful death. It breaks my heart to see your sufferings..."

A: "Liar. You decided that I deserve a slow and painful death. I ask again, if you are really so sorry for me, go and call someone that can bring here some water to put off the fire."

J: "Not gonna happen. You deserve it."

A: "Just go away, you mad sadistic freak."

And then the flames get nearer... and nearer... and nearer... UNTIL...

Until I wake up in my bed. It was all a dream! My home was never on fire! There never was someone called J... (Or Jesus, you see?) and my house is ok! (no hell, you see?).

Now, do you understand the points I'm making?

 

You are overwhelmed with gratitude and you kiss his feet because you see his love for you.

 

1) He burned down my house, what is there to be grateful for?

2) I get near him and see that he's not really dead. He's just faking it. In 3 days he'll spring on his feet and scream "surprise! April fool!".

 

He shows you that you are of great worth because he poured out His precious, holy blood for you. He restores the dignity you had before the Fall in the Garden of eden.

 

What dignity can I have in the eyes of someone that sees me as nothing more than a sheep?

 

Your sexuality is a sacred gift and you realize that this Man who has just laid down his life for you wants to protect you from being harmed by those who care nothing about the sacredness of you body.

 

Jesus looks at me grimly. If I want Jesus love, I must leave my partner. She's of my same sex. So "she cares nothing about the sacredness of my body"? In the eyes of jesus, it doesn't matter if she's absolutely faithful to me, if she loves me more than anything else, if her kisses are the sweetest and most respectful ones I've ever experienced since I was born. Jesus doesn't care: it is wrong. If I ask him why is it wrong, he answers "Because I said so." then I ask him "Why did you say so?" and then he answers "Because it's wrong". My sexuality is a gift? Not in the eyes of jesus. In the REAL world, when someone gives me a gift, I can then do with the gift as I please. If Jesus wants to control my sexual activity, it means that it wasn't really a gift.

You don't have much experience in BDSM, right? Because I'm really starting to envision your Jesus as some sort of jock, dressed in black leather, keeping the leash of your collar in his right hand and the whip in the left hand. "Master, can I please have sex with that man?" "No, you can't have sex with that man. But you can and will have sex with that one." "Yes, master". :nono:

 

You were a slave to sin but Jesus has set you free.

 

I was a slave to sin because Jesus decided that I was destined to be a slave to sin from my first breath, no, from the very time I underwent meiosis in my mother's bowels.

Again, he throws me inside a small cell, then he lights it on fire, then he promises I will be able to survive if only I'll become his slave. Cool.

 

He said in John, "I don't call you slaves but friends."

 

Friends don't sentence other friends to burning and suffering excruciatingly for the whole eternity.

 

On the other hand...Perhaps you enter the house, see his lifeless body and then say, "I don't care.

 

I see the lifeless body and say "Why should I care? He's not lifeless. He's just pretending. In 3 days he'll be on his feet again. Some death it is."

 

This is not the way I choose to be saved. My sins don't need to be punished

 

"...first, he decides that I deserve to slowly burn alive. Then he decides that I deserve to survive if I become his slave. What the f*ck is wrong with this guy? I didn't go to his house and light IT on fire!"

 

You board up all the doors nad windows not wishing to see the light of truth shine in on you. Every day and night Jesus comes to your house pleading "Please! Let me in. Judgement is coming! Accept what I've done for you and it will Passover you."

 

Pleading?

He's all powerful.

He can snap his fingers and say: I want you to open your door to me. He can snap his fingers and decide that this whole board shall suddenly see the truth of his existence and goodness. Right? He has the passepartout.

He's not doing so. So...

1) Either he can't,

2) Or he's perfectly fine with us thinking that he doesn't exist and that he's evil.

No pleading here. An All powerful being has no need to plead, he can do whatever he want.

 

God gave people a very long time to turn form there sins. It took years before the ark was completed but people laughed at Noah and his family until it was too late.

 

What would you do, honestly, if you lived in the middle of sahara desert, and one day you'd see one of your tent neighbors coming out of his tent and starting to build a boat?

 

He distroyed the world that way because He had had it with the wickedness of humankind.

 

I specifically talked about unborn babies, very little babies, animals. Were those wicked? What wickedness could those little babies have done?

 

I don't know why He just didn't blink His eyes and be done with it. He's God and who am I to tell Him what He should do?

 

That is the point! Now, take a deep breath, and *think*:

If someone would try to do the same thing... namely, a mad scientist trying to destroy all of humanity with a cluster of nuclear bombs, putting just a single good people family in a safe bunker, you will call him (and rightly so) a madman.

But... if God does the same thing, the exact same thing, you find it Righteous.

Another example for you.

If J., a crazy man just escaped from the mental asylum, came to your home, lighted it on fire, and asked you to start worshipping him forever and ever, otherwise you'll roast suffering a LOT, you think (and rightly so) that he's a madman.

If Jesus does the same thing, you find it Righteous.

He's god.

You are no one to tell him what he should do.

But he, in turn, is no one to tell him what you should DOUBT and think. Your brain is yours. Do you notice that it is hypocrisy to say that the exact same action, done by a certain person, is OK, while it, done by a certain other person, is not OK any more and should be deserving of a tremendous punishment?

You can't tell god what to do, but you can stop right there... think about those 2 month children flailing their little, pudgy arms frantically, crying loud with tears that run down their little faces... their mothers are standing on top of their meager homes and huts, clutching the children to their breasts, terrified... the water is rising... rising... it is now at the level of the mothers' neck, and then chin... and then, mouth and nose. With his last breath, the mother keeps her arms lifted up, as much as she can, in her hands she holds the baby, rain pouring down on his little crying red face. The rain keeps coming down... and down... the cries of the babies and children echo in the solitary village... villages... in the whole world. And then, they subside. There is silence. For an instant, one can still catch a glimpse of a small white bundle, lifelessly floating on the roaring waves. And then... no more.

Is this scene I just described to you, a good scene? A scene of love?

 

He's all powerful.

He can make us open our ears if he wants to.

Does he want us to go to hell? No?

Then why doesn't he open our ears?

I won't accept a "Because he respects your free will" as an answer, because in the OT he shows off his power and presence to people who don't believe in him. Would you say that in those cases, he overrides those people's free will? If he did it then, why can't he do it again?

 

Perhaps he's trying to do that right now.

 

Again: Trying?

He's all powerful. He has no need to TRY. He can simply DO it. An all powerful being, doesn't TRY to do things, he just DOES them.

 

Does this mean that, say, Varokhar, Hansolo, me, Monsterfeet, etc, won't go to hell?

 

I wouldn't want to see that happen to anyone.

 

This is not what I asked.

 

Jesus has taken the punishment for your sins so why would you say, "No thanks. I'll do it my way. I know better than God Almighty."

 

If Jesus doesn't want us to do it our way, why doesn't he shows us his truth? Really shows us. And he knows the way to open our hearts to him, if he'd only want to.

a - either he cannot.

b - or he's fine with what we're saying and with our being tortured forever.

 

But you did nothing so far to explain to us why you think that he's not EVIL.

I haven't? You should go back and read my story and all my posts.

 

No you haven't. You have dodged all questions posed to you. Answering with a story is an emotional barrier. You answered Varokhar's questions and Antlerman's questions only at page 8 of the thread... how many posts after theirs? 100? 200??

A story is not an explanation.

Saying "But he is GOOD! But he LOVES you!" Is an unsupported assertion, it is not an explanation.

Saying "But he exists, your gods don't!" is an unsupported assertion, it is not an explanation.

Saying "He's not evil. You're refusing him" sistematically ignoring the points people make in their posts... well you know the drill. It is not an explanation.

 

Jesus is the one that has built the car.

 

If you mean Hell, it was created to punish Satan, his angels and sin.

 

And the baby is sinful. Simply because he was born. So he deserves to be killed by the car Jesus is deliberately driving towards him, right?

 

Jesus is the one that drives the car.

 

No It is Satan who allures us to get into the car.

 

Who created Satan?

Jesus.

Who allowed Satan to (be created evil?) (become evil?)

Jesus.

Who decided that Satan's evilness should just stay as it is, without making it disappear and Satan becoming good again?

Jesus.

Who decided that Satan should be allowed to do what he wants?

Jesus.

Is Satan more powerful than Jesus?

No.

Is Jesus more powerful than Satan?

Yes.

Could Jesus destroy satan, or make it become good again, in a clap of hands, no, with a single act of will?

Yes.

Does Jesus give out directly orders to Satan, telling him what to do and what not to do?

Yes.

Is Satan a total subordinate of Jesus, doing only what Jesus allows him to do (because if jesus won't allow it, we just won't have a Satan)?

Yes.

Did Satan create Hell?

No.

Did Satan decide that sinners would end up in hell forever?

No.

Jesus is the mastermind here, you see? He is the one that created the car. He is the one that drives it toward the child, because he is a sinner. Satan? Satan is imprisoned in the trunk of the car. Satan is a prisoner in hell, Jesus built hell as a prison for Satan... so Satan is in the trunk.

 

...whew.

Came out longer than I thought it would be...

Ok. Waiting for the next batch of amy marie's answers.

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Man didn't know temptation because there was nothing to tempt him until Satan came. Because man chose evil sin came became part of his nature. It all comes back to free will.

 

It is by our own free will we choose to go to heaven but in heaven you won't want to sin. You will want to be there.

 

Where in the Bible does it say the snake who tempted Adam and Eve in Genesis is Satan? This is a Christian tradition and is not Biblical. Please go back and read the story in Genesis. If you believe the snake is Satan, please give chapter and verse to back it up.

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Everyone,

 

My story which is one story posted in several parts IS the reason why I feel the Jesus should be worshipped instead of Odin.

Which of these alternative statements best describe your feelings:

 

1. My story which is one story posted in several parts IS the reason why I feel I should worship Jesus instead of Odin, but I recognize others may find the same sort of meaning for themselves in worshipping Odin as I do in worshipping Jesus. My beliefs are right for me, their beliefs are right for them. We are all equals.

 

2. My story which is one story posted in several parts IS the reason why I feel ALL people should be worshipping Jesus instead of Odin. What is right for me should be right for all people.

 

3. My story which is one story posted in several parts IS the reason why I feel ALL people should be worshipping Jesus instead of Odin. This is right for all people because all other God's are false gods and Jesus is the only real one.

 

4. (Other)

 

I'm really trying to get you to discuss this on this level, as this is the real heart of everyone's question for you, as I see it. Do you feel others are wrong?

 

It's number three.

Thanks for responding. Our power was out for the last day here from a storm, and now I'm heading out of town for the day. I plan a much greater dialog with you now, but I will need to get back to it later.

 

For now, I want to expand on what you just answered. In the statement #3 it says you feel all people should worship your god, because all other gods are false gods and Jesus is the only real one. Now how exactly do you determine this is true?

 

1. Your feelings alone? Because you feel it in your life, it is truth for all mankind? All people therefore should feel as you do?

 

2. Your feelings along with what you have read? Your feelings are a confirmation of what you have been shown by others that the Bible is saying? (I say "shown by others" very deliberately, since you could not on your own come up with a theology that parallels a modern, standard theology without being instructed. I would not accept that you read it in a vacuum and miraculously came up with an understanding on your own that took others approximately 1800 years of theological evolution to come up with. Unless somehow you disagree?)

 

3. The Bible says it's true, it is therefore true. It is its own authoritative witness to itself. All other holy books that claim truth are either mistaken, deliberately deceptive, or inspired by the devil? Add to this, those who read different things from the Bible than what you have come to see are likewise mistaken, deceived, or inspired by the devil?

 

4. The Bible says it's true and science has verified the miracle stories of the Bible, corroborating it's validity as an authority in matters of divine knowledge, therefore a sure foundation for matters of faith?

 

5. You feel there is enough truth in the Bible to make the rest of it believable, even though sometimes it runs into common sense or conflicts with the findings of science. Accepting it on faith, with a "sufficient" basis of truth confirmed by reason and emotion, makes it authoritative enough to reject all other beliefs as errors, heresies, or demonic.

 

6. Other

 

Thanks in advance for your response. I will flesh out my other thoughts later and get them into writing. For now, it's BBQ time. Ahh life, it is good for all who live and choose to see it. Not just for one version of one God's chosen few! :grin:

 

Peace

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We don't, as you say, have complaints about Jesus anymore than we could have complaints about the Easter Bunny or Santa. We are pointing out how flawed the concept is.

 

If Jesus did at all exist, he was a product of his time since it's the first century religions that Christianity is built out of. Most all the stories of Jesus in the Bible were adopted from Ancient Paganism.

 

Do you believe in Jesus or Dionysus here?

 

 

How do you know? How do you know where the stories and myths come from?

 

I said this before to you:

 

When I was a Christian, I converted many people to Christ. The people that were responsive to my witnessing, and accepted Christ had emotional issues. They needed to believe that something bigger than themselves loved them unconditionally because they didn't accept or love themselves.

 

The people who were even somewhat emotionally healthy refused to accept what I had to say about Jesus. They would listen, but they had no use for it because they didn't need it. Why do you think that is, Amy?

 

You made Jesus into a band-aid, and if it works for you to help you deal with your emotional problems, great. However, I highly doubt that you could be a functional person without your belief system. You are just too damn needy. That's what I read when I read your stories. You need to be rescued by something or someone else because you don't know how to rescue yourself.

 

Taph

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It wasn't Odin who answered my questions. It wasn't Odin who said "I love you" and who took all the painful rejection of my mother and father on his soldiers. It wasn't Odin who suffered the punishment for my sins.

 

You're right. It wasn't Odin

It was your imagination.

 

I've been following this thread for a while now, and with each of your post your hypocrisy gets more and more ridiculous. Please answer the questions that people ask you instead of ignoring them and repeating the same bullshit over and over again (funny how they predicted exactly what you were gona do).

 

I was right to stop wasting my time on you... you just don't wanna hear or learn anything. It's PATHETIC... but entertaining. So I'll continue to follow, I just won't put any effort into it.

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Today when I came here I saw an incredible amount of questions. I'm not going to be answering all of them. I was told yesterday to "put up or shut up." I would ask the moderators if they really don't like me talking about my faith here to ban me from the forum

 

"Allow me to predict that she will dodge these assertions and make an appeal to God's ways not being our ways" was what I said, and this is what I got.

 

Amy, you're disgustingly predictable.

 

You claim that your belief isn't incoherent? Then back up your claim by answering my questions. Allow me to "see the light", so to speak.

 

You claim that you have understanding, well then answer my damn questions. I doubt that you ever had the intellectual ability to ask questions that I've posed to you.

 

1) If you know the answers, give them.

2) If you don't, then don't make claims that you can't back up.

 

My original statement stands until you refute it.

 

Your belief is incoherent. You can claim all you want about a stupid curse, and you still claim it. There is no curse, it never happened.

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Today when I came here I saw an incredible amount of questions. I'm not going to be answering all of them. I was told yesterday to "put up or shut up." I would ask the moderators if they really don't like me talking about my faith here to ban me from the forum

 

We don't ban people here because they say things we don't want to hear or because we don't like them. We are not ChristianForums and pride ourselves on that fact.

 

Many people have gone out of their way to be kind to you, however, you must remember you are not preaching to the chior. We will disagree with you and ask you hard questions in order to get you to think in a different way from which you do. We are not asking you to abandon your faith. We are asking you to use your brain.

 

We understand that it is very difficult for someone to answer all the questions we throw at them, which is why I have never expected you to reply to me. Do your best, but above all think outside the box.

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"So here's my final reason:Like you I had many of the same questions. Many why's? We even had a Priest tells us the Gospels were just made up stories to illustrate a point. I was at least heading toward agosticism. The answer was reveled to me in the form of the suffering, broken Jesus where I saw in His eyes my own issues of rejection. You have already read here some of the loss and things I suffered."

 

So how can this "saviour" be real if he's in made up stories? If you base your beliefs off of these stories, then you would be basing them off of made up stories, correct?

 

"I was standing outside an old church one rainy night looking up at three stained glass windows dipicting the Passion of Christ and I asked Him all the questions you're asking right now.

 

And it was as if a light shot through the darkness enlightening my undertstanding. This is how the answer came: Ever sinse the Fall the world has been under a curse. Man has chosen to live his life apart from God. There will be suffering, pain, loss until the curse is totally reversed. One day there will be an end to all pain and suffering and all the effects that came when man lost paridice."

 

Here is your mistake. You assume that "the Fall" actually happened. You use an assumption of Christianity to rationalize Christianity to yourself, and that is obviously illogical. Why do you think that humans have "fallen"? What possible reason could there be to believe such a thing? What "curse" do you speak of (for your information, a story about an apple doesn't mean anything)? If you've ever looked at the world, you'd know that there is no curse at all, simply people choosing their actions. Also, I don't know if you ever thought about it, but loss is a part of life. Without death there can't be birth.

 

Again I ask you, why do you believe "the Fall" ever occured?

 

Secondly, how can you say that we have lived apart from "God" when numerous religions have existed everywhere for countless ages? All people have always lived with their gods, and to say the opposite is in pure denial of this fact.

 

"Then it was as if Jesus stood right in front of me and I saw all the my accusations about God not caring all over His body, written in multiple whip lashes, thorns, beatings, bruises and all the sorrows and pains of the world past, present and future heaped upon Him. My heart heard the four words that crashed through any last defense I held up against Him,

 

"Amy I love you."

 

Those words have been with me ever since. In times of doubt and fear I'm right there again, thinking of the crucified Jesus."

 

OK, let's ignore the fact that this was a vision and nothing more. I can envision anything in front of me, but mere imagination doesn't make anything so. Moving on, a deity who actually had any shred of love would not condemn anyone to suffering for ever more. However, Jesus is given the role of throwing people down into the deepest pits of despair for no good reason. How "loving" is that? How "just" is that? Let me give you a hint: it's the opposite.

 

Oh, and by the way, you even admitted that his story was made up, so just about everything you said is pretty much irrelevant.

 

"I didn't come to love Him because I was afraid of Hell although I saw Hell was a reality. I came to love Him because my soul witnessed His long suffering love.

 

It wasn't Odin who answered my questions. It wasn't Odin who said "I love you" and who took all the painful rejection of my mother and father on his soldiers. It wasn't Odin who suffered the punishment for my sins."

 

You see hell as a reality and yet you do not see it for both a flawed, illogical concept and an immoral one as well (and it is). So is suffering all that is needed to become a deity? Countless people were killed much the way the made up (your words) Christian stories said Jesus died, so are they all "saviours" now, too? To address a more central point, Jesus didn't suffer for anyone's sins, people suffer for their immoral actions (action, reaction). More than that, you should back up what you're saying (as in how does this guy suffer because you don't believe in him? Kind of self-centered if you ask me)

 

Oh, and how do you know Odin didn't suffer?

 

"Finally what it all comes down to is this. You all have a list of complaints against Jesus. Some have endured incredible sufferings. Some want lodgical answers. Some have stopped believing. I know that all of you, all of your complaints and some... rage - has come straight into the Heart of Jesus. And I am absolutely convident that He will continue to pursue you like the faithful Lover that He is.

 

Often in my prayers I talk about you, naming some of you by name and I feel His love rising up in my heart for you. And then His sadness turns into joy. I know why He is happy. He is convident in the great power of love.

 

Today when I came here I saw an incredible amount of questions. I'm not going to be answering all of them. I was told yesterday to "put up or shut up." I would ask the moderators if they really don't like me talking about my faith here to ban me from the forum"

 

Again, there is no reason to think that people who don't believe a story about a guy who cannot be shown to have done any of the things attributed to him, as well as a mindset which is patently illogical, hurts that very person. Would this faithful lover pursue us, and then cast us into everlasting pain and suffering after we die? According to Christianity, yes, and that is another reason why it is so misled.

 

So you just "know"? I would like to know what the reason for that is, although I expect to be disappointed.

 

It's OK if you don't answer all of them, it would be unreasonable to expect you to do so. However, all I ask is that you consider some of them. By the way, I wasn't trying to be harsh or strident, and I hope that's not the impression I give.

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