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Why Should I Worship Jeezus(tm) And Not Odin?


Lycorth
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Christians are no under the lLaw because Christ fullfilled the Law.

1. Where does it say that.

 

2.

Matthew

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

 

5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled

 

5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

Also...

 

Chronicles

16:15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;

16:16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;

16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,

 

Psalm

119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

 

Luke

16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

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Last night you predicted that I wouldn't answer any of your questions and I did, twice. Just wanted to point that out because you always so quick to point things out when I don'y anwer you. YO! Everyone! See Asimov's perdiction was wrong! See how silly this is?

 

What do you hope to accomplish? ...Do you hope to ridicule him? It won't work. He never claimed to be a prophet or to be omniscient. He's entitled to his opinions, and in my point of view, those opinions had a reason to be: you answered about 20% of the total posts addressed to you, and answered about 0.4% of the total questions addressed to you. :shrug:

 

 

 

 

It wasn't Odin who answered my questions. It wasn't Odin who said "I love you" and who took all the painful rejection of my mother and father on his soldiers. It wasn't Odin who suffered the punishment for my sins.

 

 

 

Well, it seems that you didn't ask Odin those questions. Maybe, it wasn't Odin who answered your questions just because you didn't pose HIM those questions: you posed them to jesus.

 

You went to an old church and decided to stare at a stained glass window, posing your questions to the engraved figure of christ... So... you had already decided that IF there was someone able to answer your questions, that one had to be jesus. You chose the setting, see? What would've happened if you had gone to a Muslim temple? (don't know the english word for the structure, sorry)... or a Sinagogue? ...or a deep wood, pressing your hands on an old tree bark and closing your eyes to listen to nature?

 

You expected, you wanted, jesus to answer you.

 

And jesus answered.

But is this reason enough to think that Odin doesn't exist?

 

How can you be sure that Odin doesn't exist?

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I really wish my English was better.

 

WOW! It's Saturday so everyone has lots of time to ask questions.

 

The topic of this thread is "Why should I worship Jesus instead of Odin?"

 

So here's my final reason:Like you I had many of the same questions. Many why's? We even had a Priest tells us the Gospels were just made up stories to illustrate a point. I was at least heading toward agosticism. The answer was reveled to me in the form of the suffering, broken Jesus where I saw in His eyes my own issues of rejection. You have already read here some of the loss and things I suffered.

 

Some people are able to deal with suffering and some people aren’t.

 

Some people rise out of suffering as full adults who are able to stand on their own two feet, not needing any crutch.

 

Some people can’t rise out of it and fall to alcohol or religion.

 

So you suffered Amy Marie, well get over it Lovey, most of us have at some stage.

 

I was standing outside an old church one rainy night looking up at three stained glass windows dipicting the Passion of Christ and I asked Him all the questions you're asking right now.

 

Firstly, why one rainy night, huh? Why not “one summer night” when you were feeling emotionally very low. Why the theatrics?

 

Secondly, your sentence “I asked Him all the questions you're asking right now.”

 

What? And you are going to give us the benefit of all your wisdom and knowledge? ?Cause you’ve been down this hard any lonely road?

 

Oh, cue the violins!!

 

And it was as if a light shot through the darkness enlightening my undertstanding. This is how the answer came: Ever sinse the Fall the world has been under a curse. Man has chosen to live his life apart from God. There will be suffering, pain, loss until the curse is totally reversed. One day there will be an end to all pain and suffering and all the effects that came when man lost paridice.

 

If there is a curse, then this omnipotent, all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful god could lift it anytime he chooses and immediately end all suffering and raise each and every one us to a state of perfection.

 

Since this has NOT happened, one can only conclude that either:

 

a. god exists and is capable, but chooses not to end our suffering.

 

b. god exists and is not capable, so can not end our suffering.

 

c. god does not exist

 

If A is TRUE, then god wants us to suffer.

If B is TRUE, then god is not really “god”.

If C is TRUE, then we are wasting our time

 

In addition to this, since this omnipotent, all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful god would have known that his beloved human companions were about to be tempted (since he is omnipotent) and chose not to warn them, then one can conclude that:

 

a. god chose not to warn us so we would be tempted and we would fall.

 

Ultimately, if we bring these two items together, we find that if God exists, then he chose deliberately to let us “fall” and chooses to prolong our suffering.

 

If one is honest, then the irrevocable answer is that if God exists, then he is evil.

 

Then it was as if Jesus stood right in front of me and I saw all the my accusations about God not caring all over His body, written in multiple whip lashes, thorns, beatings, bruises and all the sorrows and pains of the world past, present and future heaped upon Him. My heart heard the four words that crashed through any last defense I held up against Him,

 

"Amy I love you."

 

Oh dear, more theatrics.

 

(more violins please!)

 

If god exists, he wouldn’t need a blood sacrifice so that he could allow himself to forgive us (even though he set us up in the first place). In deed, if god needs a sacrifice in order to do something, then he’s not much of a god.

 

Those words have been with me ever since. In times of doubt and fear I'm right there again, thinking of the crucified Jesus.

 

So it gives you pleasure to think that god (as god) had to brutally sacrifice himself (as jesus) so that he could convince himself to forgive us (his loving creations)?

 

That’s weird.

 

I didn't come to love Him because I was afraid of Hell although I saw Hell was a reality. I came to love Him because my soul witnessed His long suffering love.

 

Hah!!!

 

His “Long Suffering Love” is so great that we’ll burn for eternity in hell in excruciating conscious torment if we don’t comply!

 

Now that’s love ….. not!!!!

 

It wasn't Odin who answered my questions. It wasn't Odin who said "I love you" and who took all the painful rejection of my mother and father on his soldiers. It wasn't Odin who suffered the punishment for my sins.

 

You’re right – it wasn’t Odin, but nor was it Jesus or God.

 

It’s a voice in your head! It’s your imagination.

 

You want someone to “lead” you and guide through you every step of the way in life. That's all you want becuase you find life to complicated and too confusing. You throw it all up to "god", because you are not capable.

 

You know, that's the supreme act of immaturity? Give it all to some one else.

 

Finally what it all comes down to is this. You all have a list of complaints against Jesus. Some have endured incredible sufferings. Some want lodgical answers. Some have stopped believing. I know that all of you, all of your complaints and some... rage - has come straight into the Heart of Jesus. And I am absolutely convident that He will continue to pursue you like the faithful Lover that He is.

 

You’ve been told time and time and time again - there are no complaints against jesus. Yet you persist with this line of talk.

 

Do you do this deliberately or are you just incapable of getting it?

 

Are you deliberately trying to be rude by ignoring what people write?

 

Are you really so rude?

 

Often in my prayers I talk about you, naming some of you by name and I feel His love rising up in my heart for you. And then His sadness turns into joy. I know why He is happy. He is convident in the great power of love.

 

He loves us so much he’ll just burn us all in hell forever.

 

 

Today when I came here I saw an incredible amount of questions. I'm not going to be answering all of them. I was told yesterday to "put up or shut up." I would ask the moderators if they really don't like me talking about my faith here to ban me from the forum

 

Of course you not going to answer, you never do. You just cut and paste these pathetic jesus stories.

 

 

Amy Marie, do you actually know anything about the Bible? Have you actually read it?

 

Do you understand that "Real-Love" has no conditions? That it has no expectations.

 

The bible is full of conditions, most of which are impossible to fullfil, there is no "Real" love in the bible!

 

Sparrow

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I'm not saying there won't be free will. You will be like Christ and Satan would be there to tempt any one. Christ wouldn't want to leave the presense of the Father. Why would you want to leave God's presense if you are now like Jesus?

 

Here are you inconsistencies again, Amy.

 

5. No. There is no evil in Heaven.

5a. Because will we be like Christ. We will then put on Chrsit and there is no sin in Him. We will then know Him face to Face without the veil of this earth. No evil exists in Heaven so Satan will not be there to entice us.

 

God created man but he wasn't perfect. To be perfect would make Him God. To put Christ's obedience in him would make him Christ, thus he would be perfect.

 

You will be like Christ

 

Which is it, Amy?

 

It is by our own free will we choose to go to heaven but in heaven you won't want to sin. You will want to be there.

 

I'm not saying there won't be free will.

 

You've said this twice now, yet you maintain that Adam was created without a sinful nature, was in God's presence, AND had free will.

 

Yet Adam sinned.

 

1. We need a sinful nature to sin.

2. Adam did not have a sinful nature.

3. How did Adam sin unless he had a sinful nature?

 

 

 

 

 

Asimov,

 

Last night you predicted that I wouldn't answer any of your questions and I did, twice. Just wanted to point that out because you always so quick to point things out when I don'y anwer you. YO! Everyone! See Asimov's perdiction was wrong! See how silly this is?

 

My prediction:

 

"allow me to predict that she will dodge these assertions and make an appeal to God's ways not being our ways."

 

You dodged my assertions.

 

"You claim that your belief isn't incoherent? Then back up your claim by answering my questions. Allow me to "see the light", so to speak.

 

You claim that you have understanding, well then answer my damn questions. "

 

So far you have not provided a coherent explanation, as it stands my prediction is true. You are dodging.

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I asked Him all the questions you're asking right now.

 

Amy,

 

We are not asking Him any questions. We are asking YOU the questions.

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As I already said. God created man but he wasn't perfect. To be perfect would make Him God. To put Christ's obedience in him would make him Christ, thus he would be perfect. You can't take God's gift of free will out of the picture. Man didn't know temptation because there was nothing to tempt him until Satan came. Because man chose evil sin came became part of his nature. It all comes back to free will.

 

No it doesn't come back to free will.

 

You said in your previous post:

 

5. No. There is no evil in Heaven.

5a. Because will we be like Christ. We will then put on Chrsit and there is no sin in Him.

 

Satan will not be there to entice us.

Why would God let man be tempted, I just gave you a passage which says that God does not tempt people. Tempting by proxy is still tempting, Amy.

 

It is not God who tempted man, it was Satan. God still created man with free will. He didn't make a bunch of robot. He wanted us to love Him of our own free will.

 

 

It is by our own free will we choose to go to heaven but in heaven you won't want to sin. You will want to be there.

 

So will we no longer have free will when we are in heaven? Are we abandoning our right to choose in order to be with God, Amy? Are we suddenly going to be robots in heaven?

 

I'm not saying there won't be free will. You will be like Christ and Satan would be there to tempt any one. Christ wouldn't want to leave the presense of the Father. Why would you want to leave God's presense if you are now like Jesus?

 

A few things.

 

First, define "sin". Christ was "sinless"? How about the time he "brandished a whip"? I've been told Jesus was the "perfect human being" by Christians, would you agree? Secondly, the stories of Christianity were made up, so he was "sinless" the same way Porky Pig is "sinless". Therefore, the whole equation falls apart.

 

Free will means one can do whatever one wants. Therefore, the presence of Satan or any other influence has no bearing on this. Would people have free will in heaven or not? It's quite simple.

 

So if we'd be like Christ does that mean we'd be able to brandish whips? Does that mean we'd be able to cast others into eternal suffering? Does that mean we'd get to be mad at trees for no reason? Does that mean we wouldn't have free will, for we would have to be like that?

 

By the way, would you say Jesus was the "perfect" human being?

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No Asuryan. I don't wish to ridicule him. How can I? He is a very intelligent guy. I wish he would just give me a tiny bit of credit once in awhile. Suppose you were the lone person having to answer all these questions. Or does that matter at all?

 

I know. To some it doesn't matter so why even ask the question, right?

 

See I have a prediction now. I predict I'm not going to get a nice response to this question.

 

You haven't seen me be mean yet, Amy.

 

You were offered to have a one on one discussion format so you could handle a lesser load of criticism, but you rejected that.

 

What credit do you want? When you show a shred of rationality, you will get credit. When I see you display your own thought in this ordeal, you will get credit.

 

You have an ardent faith in whatever you believe. Belief and knowledge must go hand in hand, you display only belief.

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I'm not dodging your questions. You just don't agree with my conclusions.

 

I'll concede that you are making an attempt.

 

Your conclusions are contradictory and irrational, however.

 

Adam was created with a free will. He was not a robot. Adam is not God. God gave Adam the power of choice. When he was first put in the garden he didn't know what sin was. Satan tempted Adam. Adam yielded to that temptation. Sin entered the human race. He chose to disobey God. AFTER Adam sinned, that's when his nature became currupt. before that He ws naked and unashamed.

 

A. We will still have free will in heaven you say, why wont there be any sin in heaven?

 

B. We wont want to sin, because we will be in the presence of God.

 

C. Adam was in the presence of God, he still sinned.

 

1. Adam had no concept of sin.

2. Adam had no sinful nature.

3. Adam was not a being who couldn't make mistakes.

 

If Adam had no sinful nature, why did he sin? Free will? We go to A and C where a conflict arises in your belief.

 

Free will is not a determinant of sin. By your own admission it is the sinful nature that causes us to sin.

 

 

Hey! It's better then late night television. Wouldn't you agree?

 

CSI? South Park? Daily Show?

 

Yea, no I would disagree.

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"Have you ever heard or righteous anger? Jesus was angry at the corruption in the temple. Picture him out numbered by all the money changers and those who were selling things. He walks up to them and says, "Sirs, would you kindly move these things hense?"

 

He had to make a whip to show them he meant business.

 

Jesus cursed the fig tree and then taught the disciples a lesson about faith. (Mark 20:20-25)

 

"But as for Me, I speak the truth and for this reason you do not believe Me. Can any of you convict Me of sin? If I speak the truth, why do you not believe Me? " John 8:47-48

 

Yes. Jesus is perfect but He learned obediance through the things that He suffered. (Hebrews) He had to continuously yield His will to the Father."

 

------------

 

So is throwing people into a pit of endless pain and suffering simply for not believing in HIM "righteous anger"? Not so, it is immoral, unjust and an illogical concept. Furthermore, claiming that YOU are the "way, the truth and the life" and that no one can reach divinity except by you (John 14:6) is nothing but wrong, intolerant and a mockery of truth itself. That's not righteous anger, that's just being inconsiderate and ignorant (and then some).

 

On to the main point: I've heard of not threatening people with a whip. Jesus would've been arrested for that in any decent society, and rightfully charged. Jesus himself was selling something exactly like those who were "corrupt", so don't neglect that fact. I've also heard of not cursing off a tree. To be honest, that is far from perfect, even if you ignore the fact that it was made up.

 

So basically, this all goes to show that even though the Gospels are pure fiction and without backing, Jesus still has fault. Not convinced? On to your claim of "perfection".

 

During his lifetime, did Jesus invent the automobile? No? How can one be perfect if they never invented something so innovative? Was Jesus the funniest guy around? Was he the best bowler? Could he play Bach? Was he able to recite Shakespeare? Did he win a hot dog eating contest? No? How can he be perfect then? Saying anything is "perfect" defies reason.

 

Oh, and tons of people were crucified, so it's ridiculous to say that his mere "suffering" means he is anything more than those people.

 

Finally, your quote is somewhat useless because I can't "convict" him since there is no reason to think he ever existed. I can convict him of sin as much as I can convict my invisible friend of graft. What I can convict him and his mindset of, though, is pure fallacy (see my charges of intolerance and ignorance above).

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Guest Shiva H. Vishnu

This bitch's persona is like the japanese in that south park episode that kept placating the americans with gushing statements about their enourmous penises.

 

snip

 

Whoever you are, before they ate from the TOKOGAE, did Adam and Eve know the difference between right and wrong?

 

Sorry, I forgot. Adam and Eve

I believe that "amy marie" is a fake. She/he/it is a manufactured fundy personality. The person behind the posts either spent a long time in christianity and learned alot of the arguments and gets their jollies arguing about it because it's one of the few things they know a little bit about, enough to convince some message board posters, or is an atheist who knows the bullshit so well they could play the part in their sleep. I have seen it, and been it many times.

 

The only other option is that she is the most recalcitrant moron on the planet who can still manage to log on to the internet.

 

Shiva,

 

What does "recalcitrant" mean? I have spent a lot of time in Christianity. There are people who are a lot better at arguing their points than I. I'm sure a lot of people here would agree.

 

Certainly not an Atheist.

 

The other option is, it's better than watching late night television.

 

Sorry, I forgot. Adam and Eve did not know the difference did between good and evil until they had eaten from the tree.

:lmao:

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"Julian, we have already established the fact that everyone here thinks Hell is a bad idea and I have put forth my reason why I disagree. Either He is or He isn't, the Way, the Truth and the Life. Why should He lie if He is? Jesus bagan a lot of His sayings by saying, "truly, truly I tell you.""

 

If you don't mind, it'd be nice to hear that reason. Now, about being the "way", to claim superiority over other philosophies without any real backup is just wrong. Jesus is saying that HE is all there is and that is it. Now I should point out that no perfect person would be so conceited, but the fact is that this is incorrect, as anyone who's ever studied other ways, other lives and other mindsets can tell you that they are not incorrect just because they lack a misled belief in Jesus. Again, what reason is there to say he is the "way"? Nothing. Oh, and con-men start off their sayings by saying "truly I tell you", the point being that he can start his sayings however he wants, but it doesn't have any bearing on reality.

 

"Actually, The gospel accounts say the temple gurads tried to arrest Him several times but failed. The NT says. "His time had not yet come.""

 

First, what does that prove? How does that make what he did acceptable? Second, now he's resisted arrest, and failed to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. This guy is one law-breaker.

 

"No. But I bet he was the best at Isreali line dancing and was probably the last one to stop dancing at a party. And I bet he could make a really mean Galiean fish sandwich when he multiplied the fish and the bread."

 

He still can't play Bach. That means he isn't perfect. The point is that he can't be perfect because perfection is an illusion. Now that we've established how Jesus cannot be concievably perfect, let us move on.

 

"If Jesus was just a man I would agree with you."

 

But the fact is that they suffered as much as he did, so his suffering doesn't qualify him for anything. What Jesus supposedly went through was commonplace in the Roman Empire, so to say he is special is just laughable. Plus, there is positively no reason to believe he was "more than a man", which makes your argument, once again, fall apart.

 

"Julian, if what Jesus said isn't true, yes, that would make Him a fake."

 

First, what I was saying is that there's no way to convict someone who has no significant record of existence. Secondly, I said that I could convict his words and their speaker due to their illogical nature. Now the thing is that if you analyze it, what Jesus said isn't true (which is part of my second point). For instance, would you agree that to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction? How about the maxim that all roads which lead to the same place are equal? Well, Jesus' words violate those truths. I could continue, but you should get the gist of what I'm saying.

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I was standing outside an old church one rainy night looking up at three stained glass windows dipicting the Passion of Christ and I asked Him all the questions you're asking right now.

 

Ah, purely personal, subjective evidence.

That kind of stuff is good for you personally (and for me likewise, referring to my own personal experiences), but basing a discussion on subjective stuff alone is not, repeat: NOT going to work.

 

It wasn't Odin who answered my questions. It wasn't Odin who said "I love you" and who took all the painful rejection of my mother and father on his soldiers. It wasn't Odin who suffered the punishment for my sins.

 

Aaah, now try this for an alternate explanation (I don't want you to accept it, just to acknowledge that this can explain what happened too):

 

- there is no jesus

- you've been brought up either mainly or even exclusively in a christian surrounding that equates the Divine with jesus, period

- if the Divine really manifested to you that night, what about your subconscious mind just having "translated" it into jesus - the figure you're most familiar with?

- another option: What if there is no Divine at all and your mind just played tricks on you? You know, the brain is a funny machine... if you demand the same thing from it over and over again, at some time it'll just say "Well, whatever, so there!" and give you what you want.

 

(That latter point is why I deeply distrust any "supernatural revelation" that only comes after much searching, praying, and other types of mental strain. Compared with that, my own initial "revelation" about Asatru at least came over me while I was completely relaxed, and before I had heard much more about Asatru than the usual common knowledge - that it's the faith about Odin, Thor et cetera)

 

Now Amy, what makes you sure that your experience was really jesus and not something else... or even nothing at all?

Kind of leads back to your arguing from the presupposed infallible bible... no? :scratch:

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Oh, and how do you know Odin didn't suffer?

 

Indeed... with a bit of irony I say now that Odin wasn't a wimp and at least suffered for more than a week:

 

139. I ween that I hung | on the windy tree,

Hung there for nights full nine;

With the spear I was wounded, | and offered I was

To Othin, myself to myself,

On the tree that none | may ever know

What root beneath it runs.

 

140. None made me happy | with loaf or horn,

And there below I looked;

I took up the runes, | shrieking I took them,

And forthwith back I fell.

 

(The Poetic Edda, H. A. Bellows-translation, Havamal)

 

Just couldn't resist... :wicked:

 

What would've happened if you had gone to a Muslim temple? (don't know the english word for the structure, sorry)

 

To quickly help out: You'll want to say "mosque" :)

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Wouldn't you rather extol the virtues of your religion to someone who gives a shit, Thurisaz? This person couldn't care less what we all believe, and is using the individual fervor of some of our members for their own personal gratification. This pisses me off a bit.

 

Yeah I know, it's weird. I honestly don't know why I still reply... I guess it's time for my little bit of personal madness, one week a year :crazy:

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Never saw the Daily Show. South Park? Well you know my answer to that one. Too many Jesus jokes.

 

God's presence was in the Garden BUT Satan was there also. Satan tempted Adam. Man chose Satan instead of God. Satan won't be in Heaven.

 

Sounds lodgical to me.

 

Just an aside to Shiva, whether or not she is a fake does not mean I cannot engage in discussion. If I'm not having fun, I wont do it.

 

Amy,

 

Then we must ask ourselves why God allowed Satan into a Holy Place like Eden? Did he not expel Adam and Eve from the Garden when they sinned? Why would he do so if he allowed evil in there anyways?

 

Again, your story makes no sense.

 

Second point, Satan also "tempted" Jesus. Jesus did not have a sinful nature, he also had free will. Jesus resisted.

 

Another inconsistency. In short, if one being who had no sinful nature and free will was tempted by Satan and yet did not give in, it would stand to reason that a being who has no sinful nature and has free will can resist Satan.

 

1. Why was Satan roaming in a Holy place in the presence of God, who apparently cannot stand evil in his presence?

 

2. What would compel Adam who had no sinful nature and had free will and was perfectly capable of resisting temptation to give in to temptation?

 

Again, your story is internally incoherent as I've pointed out to you numerous times.

 

Concede.

 

You must either admit that God tempted Adam and Eve by allowing Satan to roam the Garden, something he admits to not ever doing (tempting) in his own Word which would be inconsistent.

 

Or.

 

You must admit that Adam's action was not one of resisting temptation, but one of supreme ignorance. Having no concept of what it means to disobey and commit a sin, he did so unknowingly and coercively. Since Adam had the mind of a child, he cannot be held accountable for his actions.

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I like beating my cock in intellectual superiority. I see no truce on the horizon. There's a bullet fpr every middle clas white thought that doesn't jibe with your subversive version of reality.

 

You think I discuss with the intention to come to some kind of truce?

 

Hardly. I'm right and I can demonstrate it. I have demonstrated it and will continue to demonstrate it as long as this nonrational ragamuffin continues to rape the colosseum with her prose....hehe, I said ragamuffin.

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The only other option is that she is the most recalcitrant moron on the planet who can still manage to log on to the internet.

Close. Amy is a naricissist. She loves the attention. We can either all forget about her or make it too uncomfortable for her to stay. I gave her a website to read. Hopefully she'll learn something and seek some real help since xianity will only feed her fantasy (so to speak). Sadly she doesn't understand that she doesn't love jesus...she uses him just like she uses everyone and everything else. She blames herself for her mom, wasn't good enough for her dad and trusts no one except herself. She sees us (pretty much all people) as inferiors so nothing we say will matter. You could possess every degree in the world and Amy would still feel she had that little something more that made her unique. Her modesty is quite false and you can see from the various discussions that she turns it on/off quite inconsistantly...especially when the heat gets turned up.

 

Anyhow, as Asimov said, it's still fun to poke at her. ;)

 

mwc

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Okay, Amy, so since you ignored my last post (or maybe you're just ignoring me in general now) instead of arguing the garden and all that crap lets just rewind a little bit further. Not too much though I don't think.

 

We're up in a perfect heaven. Another perfect day (or night...or whatever the hell they have there). God (in his three parts) is there. The angels, including good old Satan, are there singing and whatnot. It's a good old time. It's a perfect time.

 

Suddenly Satan rebels and convinces 1/3 or the rest of the angels to rebel with him. But wait. Stop right there. I must have skipped something.

 

Things are perfect. Then a rebellion. Who whispered into Satan's ear? Where did his sin come from?

 

You blame our sin nature on the fact that the assertion that the serpent convinced Eve to sin (with the unfounded assertion that the serpent was Satan). So where'd Satan get the idea? It had to come from somewhere? Your logic demands it. It's like a disease. It's "passed on." Satan had it and brought it into the garden when he fell. So Satan had it in heaven. He must have "caught" it there.

 

According to the "Lord's Prayer" jesus states "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." God's will may not always be done on earth but it is always done in heaven. This is the perfect testimony of the Son of God who is also God. Therefore the will of God, always being done in heaven, would seem to be the origin of the rebellion of Satan and 1/3 of the angels. It would be the origin of the "sin" disease. Therefore when Satan and the angels were all cast down to earth, infected with said disease, it was God who was the originator of it all. He was the cause. Jehovah. The Holy Spirit and, yes, even precious little Jesus were all in it together. Your argument falls apart based on your own god's testimony.

 

mwc

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No Asuryan. I don't wish to ridicule him. How can I? He is a very intelligent guy. I wish he would just give me a tiny bit of credit once in awhile. Suppose you were the lone person having to answer all these questions. Or does that matter at all?

 

I know. To some it doesn't matter so why even ask the question, right?

 

See I have a prediction now. I predict I'm not going to get a nice response to this question.

 

 

 

Ah, but you're pointing your finger at a strawman here. The problem is not your having to answer a whole bunch of questions... in that case, you would be answering them slowly, but clearly, and using your mind. Trying to use logic. Effectively *answering* the questions we pose, without trying to sidetrack them... i.e., you kept going on and on for a lot of pages of this thread, before actually even addressing some (not all) of Varokhar's points, and even then, he asked you why should he worship odin instead of jesus, and you answered "i know that jesus is true because jesus helped me"... since he presented his case with long detailed posts, he deserved something more than that.

 

You don't come out as someone whose problem is having to answer to a lot of questions, to me. It seems that your problem is actually addressing the posts asking you questions; this is what Asimov means when he tells you you dodge, this is why more and more people leave these discussions with a sneer or a disappointed look on their virtual faces. Do you want another example of dodging? Well, when I posed you those questions on the flood, asking you to think, and actually say if in your eyes, someone, anyone, killing so many people, and so many innocents, is a righteous and good thing to do, you didn't answer. You covered your eyes with a blindfold of faith. Your mind tells you that killing children is a horrible thing to do. Your indoctrination tells you that whatever god does, it is a good thing. And since you can't manage to reconcile these 2 aspects of the matter, you ...dodge, saying "well god is god, god knows why, I don't know because I'm not god.".

 

 

 

That is why he doesn't give you some more credit. At least I think. It certainly is the reason I don't give you more credit than I'm actually giving.

 

I'll give you credit though: I thought you would've run away a thread or 2 ago. The contents of your posts waver between all-out emotionalism (rife with clichées more often than not), accusing us of something, or speak about christ's love, christ's forgiveness, christ's having nothing to do with hell (when we all know he created it and he decided to put sinners there instead of just canceling sin altogether). I would like from you some posts (all of your posts) really answering our questions in a direct way.

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If Jesus was just a man I would agree with you.

Get your story straight. Either sin is sin, and it's bad, or it's ok for everyone.

It's not ok for Jesus to sin (which he did quite a lot in the bible) if it's wrong for man.

And don't give me some bullshit like "it's not sin if jesus does it". Sin is the action itself, and if the action is morally wrong (which it really isn't most of the time, but let's pretend), it's still morally wrong no matter who does it.

 

God is not evil so He can't be tempted by evil.

Except Yaweh says he creates both good and evil.

Besides if he creates satan, and satan created evil (which makes satan a god because he can create), even then it's STILL yahweh's fault that evil exists, because he's all knowing and knew how thinges were gonna turn out.

Go ahead, ignore me, it'll only make you look like a moron again.

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Okay, Amy, so since you ignored my last post (or maybe you're just ignoring me in general now) instead of arguing the garden and all that crap lets just rewind a little bit further. Not too much though I don't think.

 

We're up in a perfect heaven. Another perfect day (or night...or whatever the hell they have there). God (in his three parts) is there. The angels, including good old Satan, are there singing and whatnot. It's a good old time. It's a perfect time.

 

Suddenly Satan rebels and convinces 1/3 or the rest of the angels to rebel with him. But wait. Stop right there. I must have skipped something.

 

Things are perfect. Then a rebellion. Who whispered into Satan's ear? Where did his sin come from?

 

You blame our sin nature on the fact that the assertion that the serpent convinced Eve to sin (with the unfounded assertion that the serpent was Satan). So where'd Satan get the idea? It had to come from somewhere? Your logic demands it. It's like a disease. It's "passed on." Satan had it and brought it into the garden when he fell. So Satan had it in heaven. He must have "caught" it there.

 

According to the "Lord's Prayer" jesus states "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." God's will may not always be done on earth but it is always done in heaven. This is the perfect testimony of the Son of God who is also God. Therefore the will of God, always being done in heaven, would seem to be the origin of the rebellion of Satan and 1/3 of the angels. It would be the origin of the "sin" disease. Therefore when Satan and the angels were all cast down to earth, infected with said disease, it was God who was the originator of it all. He was the cause. Jehovah. The Holy Spirit and, yes, even precious little Jesus were all in it together. Your argument falls apart based on your own god's testimony.

 

mwc

 

Satan didn't "catch' anthing. Sin had it's origin in Satan because he etertained thoughts of pride and acted on them. God is not evil so He can't be tempted by evil. Satan wanted to be worshipped like God and he tempted Adam and Eve with the same thought. "You will be like god's'

 

Perhaps at one time the angels too had free will but I don't agree that God created sin.

First, your statement "God is not evil so He can't be temped by evil" is rediculous. That implies that everything else that was ever tempted was evil. So Satan and 1/3 of the angels (and the angels that were tempted but didn't "turn") were "evil" and A&E were "evil" out of the gate. Since others have shown that evil does orginate from god your statement is pointless it also means the 40 days in the desert by jesus were pointless and an act as he could have never been tempted. Just another show by baby-god. I didn't read the Odin stories (a little long for me but I'll read them eventually) but so far he's winning. Hell, my cat wins against jesus. He wants to be petted and makes no pretense.

 

Hmmmm...Perhaps my point my lost? I wouldn't normally leave my entire post but I want you to re-read it...or should I say read it since you seemed to have glossed over the actually point.

 

I'm going to get a little condescending and spell it out hopefully nice and slow.

 

Heaven is perfect.

God's will IS done in heaven (according to the Lord's Prayer)

Satan "rebelled" in heaven therefore sin originated in heaven

Satan and sin was cast down in to the garden

Satan and sin "corrupted" humans

 

Take a good look at those points, especially the second and third points. God's will IS done in heaven. Am I making that up? Nope. That's straight from little baby god's mouth. Most, if not all of us have even repeated those very words on a regular basis. This doesn't say "hopefully" or "sometimes" or "mostly" it is a statement of fact. God's will IS done in heaven. Whether I believe the story or not doesn't even matter. What does matter is that YOU believe the story and on that basis alone YOU believe these words to be a statement of fact. So, unless you wish to contradict jesus I can assume that YOU believe that God's will IS done in heaven as stated in the Lord's Prayer (from Matthew as I recall). So how can one rebel in a place where another's will is done unless it is that others will? Plainly put how could Satan rebel in heaven where God's will is done unless it is God's will? That is not possible. It is at odds with jesus' (god's) testimony. A contradiction of ideas. The situation in heaven was under god's full control.

 

But, then again, I'm willing to agree with you. I'm getting tired of arguing with xians about the whole Satan is not Lucifer thing. I realize that Lucifer is a Latin word that did not exist until long after the Hebrew was written and had to do with the planet Venus and the then King of Babylon. Okay, then. It's really about how Satan (Lucifer) was the highest ranking, most beautiful angel ever and how he watched the other angels worship god and he wanted that for himself. How the sin winked into existed within him and he became jealous. How he convinced others to join him and he was cast down. How the mighty have fallen. How the creation of jealousy has hurt us all!

 

Hurt us all indeed, Amy. The infection of jealousy was so strong it even got to YOUR GOD! Exodus 20:5 "...for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me..." The creation of Satan was so powerful it managed to corrupt even your perfect god. It turned him jealous, spiteful, paranoid, vengeful and unjust. Punishing the sons for the sins of the fathers. Satan was so strong he was able to raise an army and wage a rebellion in a place where only god's will was supposedly able to be done. Was he cast down or did he leave? He was able to simply walk back into the court of god in the book of Job with no resistance. The act of a rebel? The act of an equal? The act of a servant? You don't have the answers to any of these questions. So look up some doctrine, quote it to me and pretend you answered.

 

mwc

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To test them. To see if they would choose Him or Satan.

 

Just tell me Amy, why would an Omniscient(All knowing) god need to test something?Doesn't he know how A & E would behave?

 

BTW, you can start proving by pointing me to scripture in the OT which says the snake was Satan, otherwise it is nothing more than Pagan theology, which the jews would not buy

 

Jews believe in The Satan, and not in the devil.

 

Do point me where does the Old Testament mention anything about a rebellion in heaven?

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Varokhar,

 

I could hate Jesus no more than you could hate the wonderful woman you are going to marry. If all the world stood against you and told your she was a liar you wouldn't believe it. Why? Because you know in your heart of hearts that she loves you.

 

Amy, again, emotional bullshit.

 

1. You don't think people are often blinded by "eros" and fail to notice evidence about the loved one's pattern of bad actions, but their friends see it all too clearly? You are blinded by your feelings about the Jesus story so that you discount huge amounts of evidence in the bible itself, let alone from normal life, that the story is a crock.

 

2. "know in your heart of heart that..." has to rest on some evidence, otherwise it's not knowledge. Varokhar's beloved is not an imaginary figure in a contradictory ancient story. You need to unpack the word "know" if you want to get away with claims like the one I quote from you above. Under what conditions does belief count as knowledge?

 

I agree with mwc:

 

If you wish to discuss the resurrection, or the rest I will be more than happy to do so. However, if you want to once again offer yourself, or your faith up as "proof" then it will be fair game for discussion and analysis. You started out just fine but once you say "it's true because I 'feel' it's true" or whatever then I get to analyze that. If you want to use yourself as example that's one thing but from what I can see it seems you and your experience is your proof and that's makes it all open to debate.

 

 

3. How do you know that what you say about Varokhar is true of Varokhar?

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