On Freewill of Christianity – From freewill to nil

[scotter]

Since the birth of Christianity, not talking about other religions which share concepts of Heaven and Hell, it has been almost 2000 years. For the past 2000 years, the faithful Christians who died are in Heaven, in a state of pure and permanent happiness now.

 

Say, on Sept 11 2001, did the souls in heaven know what happened? Did they feel sad too?

 

Proposition I: yes, they felt sad too. [but this is against the promise of eternal happiness in heaven]

 

Proposition II: no, they did not feel sad, they felt happy as ever because they were / they are in heaven.

 

For proposition II, I do not endorse or disparage this kind of happiness, but I have the following comments:-

 

Scenario 1: they knew about what happened. But they still felt happy, because happiness in heaven is a promise, they can only feel happy, they can only have the feelings of happiness…..they lose the freedom to feel sad.

 

Scenario 2: they did not know what happened, nor did they need to know. The divine heaven and the secular earth are two distinctive places, the heaven is sealed off from the earth. So whatever happened on earth, souls in heaven do not know, do not need to know. They feel happy, because they don’t know the sufferings, the pains of the earth…..they lose the freedom to feel sad.

 

Thus for Prop. II, including both scen. 1 and 2, I have the following deduction:

 

Man exercises his freewill [to believe in Jesus], to love God, arises to Heaven, and attains a state of no freewill --- in the least, he does not have the freewill to feel sorrow.

[Guest Heavenly Deceit]

I'd like to know how satan rebelled in heaven when no evil can exist there.

[Mr. Neil]

Remember that scene in Star Trek V when Bones was trying to convince Kirk to have Sybok take away his pain, and Kirk started freaking out? "I don't want my pain taken away! I need my pain!" That's usually what I think of when I think of heaven. If going to heaven means being a zombie, then I don't want to go.

[Reach]

"I don't want my pain taken away! I need my pain!"  That's usually what I think of when I think of heaven.  If going to heaven means being a zombie, then I don't want to go.

Exactly! It is the contrasts that make life interesting.

 

I don't know if there actually is a heaven but if there is a heaven, and some "souls" are there, it doesn't seem to make sense that they would have to be subjected to "viewing" activities here on earth. That would be hell for them.

[Mr. Neil]

That is, by the way, my absolute favorite scene out of the entire Star Trek series; Kirk heroically resisting religious brainwashing. Parallels to free thought can be found throughout that movie.

 

 

...not to sidetrack the topic.

[Totallyatpeace]

The following verses show that Jesus felt sadness and sorrow for people while he was here on earth.

 

Matthew 23:37-39

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord."

 

John 11:33-36

When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. "Where have you laid him?" he asked.

"Come and see, Lord," they replied. Jesus wept. Then the Jews said, "See how he loved him!"

 

Christ had already ascended when Saul is on the road to Damascus and he hears a voice from heaven call out......

 

Acts 9:4-5

He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.

 

This verse and others show that pain/sorrow can be felt in heaven. (The intermediate heaven, which is now)

 

However, the most commonly used verse regarding there being no pain in heaven refers specifically to the New Earth or Eternal Heaven. It's possible at that time, we will cease to remember.

 

Revelation 21:4

He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

[Totallyatpeace]

Thankful~

 

First of all, nice to meet you.... I can tell that you will be loved here.....

 

Anyway, I was simply giving biblical scripture regarding whether there is pain/sorrow in heaven. I really don’t know the answer..............neither does anyone else.

 

tap

[Totallyatpeace]

Thankful~

 

I agree with much of what you have said but I am assuming (not always a good thing) that our perspective or perspective in general will be different. If indeed, there is a heaven, I believe we will see things differently from how we see them now.

 

Regarding freewill.........who needs it?......... considering all will be perfect.

 

tap

[Kryten]

. . .

Say, on Sept 11 2001, did the souls in heaven know what happened? Did they feel sad too?

. . .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If there were a heaven, then they probably were glad for the busload of new residents. Not so much of a tragedy to those already there or for those new arrivals. Less happy would be the other 97% of those killed headed the other direction, and of course, those left behind (who weren't anti-American muslims).

But that assumes there is a heaven-- and if the only evidence of such is found in the bible, then we can pretty much dismiss it as church propaganda.

 

 

TAP, nice to "see" you again...

 

Welcome Thankful

Not speaking for TAP here (or anyone else), but the Christian rationalization I was always taught was that "quickly" must mean "suddenly" and not "soon". But as you already know, that is just a way to salvage an incorrect prophecy, and save the savior from telling another fib.

[Totallyatpeace]

Nice to *see* you too, Kryten.

 

"but the Christian rationalization I was always taught was that "quickly" must mean "suddenly" and not "soon". But as you already know, that is just a way to salvage an incorrect prophecy, and save the savior from telling another fib."

 

 

Aaaahh, yes. That must be it.

 

 

tap

[Kryten]

Nice to *see* you too, Kryten.

 

"but the Christian rationalization I was always taught was that "quickly" must mean "suddenly" and not "soon". But as you already know, that is just a way to salvage an incorrect prophecy, and save the savior from telling another fib."

Aaaahh, yes. That must be it. 

tap

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You weren't supposed to read that last part...

[Kryten]

Oh, and WELCOME, SCOTTER!!

[Totallyatpeace]

But TAP, didn't God previously make everything perfect????  The first chapters in Genesis say he already did.  So either he made everything perfect the first time or he didn't.  If he didn't make things perfect the first time then that means that God isn't perfect, right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Yes, he made everything perfect and "all creations groans to be restored to perfection". He also gave us free will. This topic probably does not belong in this particular thread and I also have a history here of avoiding the debate section.....

 

Go figure.

 

Totally at Peace

[Merlinfmct87]

Why should death be the end of the journey? Assuming there is an afterlife, why should we exchange death--i.e. non-existance--with perfection--i.e. nothing left to do?

 

I have no clue where I am going, if anywhere. But I hope it has a library... I still want to work towards understanding the world.

 

And THINK of all the history you could learn, directly from the people who made it...

 

Merlin

[Totallyatpeace]

And last but not least, if you answered any of the above, that perfection was ruined by Satan, please answer why God allowed Satan to continue existing after his initial rebellion, knowing that He was eventually going to destroy Satan anyway?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Madame M~

 

My conditioned response would be that this is all circular reasoning and leads nowhere fast.

 

However, I'm just about to shock you, I'm sure.

 

I would have answered many of the above questions with the fact that Satan ruined our perfection by sinning against God in the first place. So in response to your last statement......"why God allowed Satan to continue existing after his initial rebellion, knowing that He was eventually going to destroy Satan anyway?" ....

 

Every morning when I wake up and every evening when I go to sleep, that is the question I ask myself. Knowing that, this is probably not the best time to push me on this-------- because I am balancing on a tightrope.

 

However, I didn't want to ignore your post.

 

Tap.

[chefranden]

Thankful~

 

First of all, nice to meet you.... I can tell that you will be loved here.....

 

Anyway, I was simply giving biblical scripture regarding whether there is pain/sorrow in heaven. I really don’t know the answer..............neither does anyone else.

 

tap

Of course you know the answer. You just don't want to acknowledge it. How, you may imagine, do I know that? Experience, dear lady. I'm sure you remember the emperor and his new clothes. It is like that.

[chefranden]

...Every morning when I wake up and every evening when I go to sleep, that is the question I ask myself. Knowing that, this is probably not the best time to push me on this-------- because I am balancing on a tightrope.

 

...

Tap.

I feel for you, Tap. I remember being on that tight rope. The good news is, it is not as high off the ground as you might think.

[Eponymic]

I feel for you, Tap.  I remember being on that tight rope.  The good news is, it is not as high off the ground as you might think.

 

Hey, just remember, if you fall are way, we'll catch you.

[scotter]

Wow guys, I am overwhelmed. I put down the thread this morning and I took off for the day. I just logged on to check and there were tons of discussions and interests aroused.

 

First of all, thank you for your welcome.

 

Secondly, yes, we have a bad cycle here – many apologetics to challengers of this question: “Why didn’t God make some robots to begin with? Why did God give man freewill?”

 

Apologetics: “God gives freewill because God wants his creation to love Him out of his freewill.”

 

But after the final judgment, according to Christian responses here, heavenly people don’t have a clue and memory of the past, so what’s the karma cycle of Creation---freewill [out of the reason not wanting to make robots]---final judgment---heaven---robotic happiness in heaven with no freewill [because of no sensory, no memory of the past] for?

 

---

As you see from my profile, I am a theist. But still I have a lot of questions for the Christians, nothing personal, but to stimulate our thinking for all members of the board.

[Totallyatpeace]

As you see from my profile, I am a theist. But still I have a lot of questions for the Christians, nothing personal, but to stimulate our thinking for all members of the board.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Ask away....

[Vixentrox]

Many of us have been on that rope.

[Abiyoyo]

Madame M,May 19 2005, 06:25 PM

 

 

Why did God give us freewill in the first place?  To love Him freely, because love from a robot is not satisfying?  If that is the case, how will love from people with no freewill suddenly become satisfying in Heaven when it wasn't satisfying on earth?

 

  scotter,May 19 2005, 08:44 PM

But after the final judgment, according to Christian responses here, heavenly people don’t have a clue and memory of the past, so what’s the karma cycle of Creation---freewill [out of the reason not wanting to make robots]---final judgment---heaven---robotic happiness in heaven with no freewill [because of no sensory, no memory of the past] for?

 

---

As you see from my profile, I am a theist. But still I have a lot of questions for the Christians, nothing personal, but to stimulate our thinking for all members of the board.

 

Madame M/ scotter,

This thought can not be guided toward all Christianity. For example, I go to church twice a week, pray continually, read diffrent text of the Bible everday, worship God truly when at service or anywhere really, Pray for peace during strife and receive peace, pray to recieve comfort during irratations and situations of our human freewill mindset and receive it. I truly look toward leaving this earth and going to The Kingdom of God and worshipping God and praising Him all the days, just like I do now.

 

I cant imagine the presence of the Holy Spirit directly beside me, in that merely passing by my earthly body causes me to weep in joy, become peaceful, steadfast in His presence. Also, I cant wait to see the End result already, if I pass from the earth before the last Day. By freewill, I choose to put my strength in God, and my every possible thoughts and meditations on His word.

 

Im not trying to say I do this or that, just making a point about the freewill topic and perfection topic by a Christians exampling. I also "perfect" my spirit(fruits)everyday. I strive to develop the fruits of the spirit, or yet perfect them in preperation of entering His Kingdom. In all, the whole means of the Word of God is to draw close to His perfection of our spirits as in Jesus's perfection. Not to simplify this process at all, it can be struggling, but revealing of our faults at the same time.

 

To more less address scotters topic, Jesus said that Abraham saw His day and rejoiced, implying that one could be given the freedom to know and see from the Kingdom. Also and Lastly, Moses and Elijah came to meet Jesus on the mount of tranfiguring and had interaction with them, Samuel meet to speak Gods word to Saul(even by a spiritualist), Abrahams talk with the rich man regarding the begger Lazarus, nevertheless, people have been demonstrated throughout the Bible OT and NT to have some type of freedom or "know" in the Kingdom of God.

[Asimov]

Madame M/ scotter,

This thought can not be guided toward all Christianity. For example, I go to church twice a week, pray continually, read diffrent text of the Bible everday, worship God truly when at service or anywhere really, Pray for peace during strife and receive peace, pray to recieve comfort during irratations and situations of our human freewill mindset and receive it. I truly look toward leaving this earth and going to The Kingdom of God and worshipping God and praising Him all the days, just like I do now. I cant imagine the presence of the Holy Spirit directly beside me, in that merely passing by my earthly body causes me to weep in joy, become peaceful, steadfast in His presence. Also, I cant wait to see the End result already, if I pass from the earth before the last Day. By freewill, I choose to put my strength in God, and my every possible thoughts and meditations on His word. Im not trying to say I do this or that, just making a point about the freewill topic and perfection topic by a Christians exampling. I also "perfect" my spirit(fruits)everyday. I strive to develop the fruits of the spirit, or yet perfect them in preperation of entering His Kingdom. In all, the whole means of the Word of God is to draw close to His perfection of our spirits as in Jesus's perfection. Not to simplify this process at all, it can be struggling, but revealing of our faults at the same time. To more less address scotters topic, Jesus said that Abraham saw His day and rejoiced, implying that one could be given the freedom to know and see from the Kingdom. Also and Lastly, Moses and Elijah came to meet Jesus on the mount of tranfiguring and had interaction with them, Samuel meet to speak Gods word to Saul(even by a spiritualist), Abrahams talk with the rich man regarding the begger Lazarus, nevertheless, people have been demonstrated throughout the Bible OT and NT  to have some type of freedom or "know" in the Kingdom of God.

 

 

And yet you still can't seem to grasp the concept of paragraphs. There should be a commandment about this...

[Vixentrox]

So in other words YoYo, you hope for death.....

[Fweethawt]

And yet you still can't seem to grasp the concept of paragraphs.  There should be a commandment about this...

 

 

Dude, that's because the proper use of paragraphs are part of the knowledge of this world. To strive to type a coherent post with separate paragraphs, is the same thing as saying, "Lord, I do not wish to know you."