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Goodbye Jesus

My Escape From Southern Baptist Fundamentalism


Misterspock1

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Along with the others in this thread, I wanted to express my thanks to you, Mr Spock, for sharing your journey (and your update) with us. I think the biggest fear for those of us who have or are deconverting is the overwhelming sense of being truly alone, of having no one to talk or share with. After all, the myths of hell often include isolation (especially from God) and the prospect of being alone for eternity (odd considering the Christian assertion that God is omnipresent).

 

I am fortunate that my wife, though still a Southern Baptist, is a gracious and kind woman. I "came out" with her two years ago about my conviction that I was no longer a Christian or the kind of Christian that I used to be. Her response was that as long as I didn't try to stop her from going to church or taking our children there, that we would have no inordinate problems. And she has kept to that agreement. I love her dearly and, oddly, I can talk about my doubts with her and she never judges me. A rare woman. My in-laws, however, are not so gracious, being deacons in a Southern Baptist church. They feel that I was "faking it" when I married their daughter almost 20 years ago. Yeah, right.

 

Anyway, I wanted to tell you how brave you are and that it will get better. Christianity relies on a "magic bullet" (believing in the Bible) that, supposedly, instantaneously changes everything about a person -- their destination, their identity, their character, their new family, their new culture, etc. But their "magic bullet" is an illusion. Once you are on the inside, you discover that hardly any two Christians know for absolute certainty that they know their destination is secure; they have to create labels to describe what kinds of Christians they are; they have the same character (they are just "sinners" who happen to be forgiven); their family fuses and fights like any other; and their culture is exclusionary and closed-minded.

 

I've found, in my experience, that there is no "magic bullet" for deconversion either. It is a long, hard, painful process. It involves alot of deconstruction with reconstruction of...what?...we don't really know if we've been in Christianity all of our lives. It is maybe like trying to rebuild a house that has been hit by a tornado...trying to decide what is worth salvaging and what is fit only for the trash heap.

 

When I look at the very best of what Jesus taught - helping the poor, feeding the hungry, healing the sick, justice for the oppressed - I still find value there. These things line up, as far as I can tell, with the best of humanism. But I discard alot of the mystical mumbo-jumbo found in the package.

 

Keep on keeping on. Keep "going where you have not gone before." :) It is only through exploration that we grow to be the best we can be.

 

I thank you for your encouragement. Though you have only been on this board for a short time, I have already grown to respect and admire your opinion. I am glad that your wife has been so supportive during this time. When your perspective on life (or at least the way others see it) radically changes like in our situations, you can be very hard-pressed to find someone - anyone - who will stick with you through all of it. Fortunately for both of us, we have found somebody. For you it is your wife, and for me it is my sister. When I "came out" to my fiancee, she left me, and my relationship with my mom has not been the same since that day. At that time I truly felt alone, abandoned by everyone I thought cared for me. Without my sister, I don't know if I would have been able to make it these past few years without killing (or otherwise harming) myself. I have found other people who have supported me since then, though pretty much all of them are people I befriended after everything went down.

 

My personal take on Jesus is that there most likely was a person named Jesus who walked the Earth, made some great teachings, did great things, and was probably a notable figure in history. He was probably a very decent human being, and someone to be admired. However, I think the Bible has skewed the true character of Jesus, trying to make him into something more (or at least different), and as a result he has become the figurehead of all the religious nonsense to go along with it. It is really difficult to separate fact from fiction in his case.

 

And yes, I spent so much time trying to find that "magic bullet" for deconversion. But I quickly realized that the only thing that would suffice for a "magic bullet" (at least for me) was a 100% guarantee that I would not be going to Hell, something I knew that was impossible to attain, and so I fell headlong into a slump. Many times in my journal and aloud I would ask myself how I was supposed to pick up the pieces of my shattered life. Everyone expects you to just pick up and move on, but my foundation completely crumbled, and I had no idea what to do next. I don't know what it was that finally started clicking (I think it was something my counselor said), but I finally grew to the point where I realized that I no longer had to succumb to terrorism, letting myself be controlled by fear. Yes, it is still a very hard process, and still very painful at times, but I have finally started to move forward.

 

I think the best thing Kirk ever said about Spock (other than calling him his friend) was, "Of all the souls I have encountered in my travels, his was the most...human." What a compliment!

 

And that line was from the best Star Trek movie of them all! :grin:

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And that line was from the best Star Trek movie of them all! :grin:

 

Oh yeah! Here's how I rate 'em:

 

II - Wrath of Khan - Best Story & Suspense (not to mention awesome space battles)

IV - The Voyage Home - Best Humor/Characterization (Catherine Hicks was HOT)

VI - The Undiscovered Country - Best "Who Dunnit" (Kim Catrall was HOT)

I - The Motion Picture - Though a rehash of "The Changeling", I still like it for the nostalgic leap to the Big Screen

II - The Search For Spock - Enjoyed Christopher Lloyd as the Klingon (but he wasn't HOT...until the end)

V - The Final Frontier - Don't even get me started

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Oh yeah! Here's how I rate 'em:

 

II - Wrath of Khan - Best Story & Suspense (not to mention awesome space battles)

IV - The Voyage Home - Best Humor/Characterization (Catherine Hicks was HOT)

VI - The Undiscovered Country - Best "Who Dunnit" (Kim Catrall was HOT)

I - The Motion Picture - Though a rehash of "The Changeling", I still like it for the nostalgic leap to the Big Screen

III - The Search For Spock - Enjoyed Christopher Lloyd as the Klingon (but he wasn't HOT...until the end)

V - The Final Frontier - Don't even get me started

 

That's pretty much the same as my list. I always had a hard time deciding whether IV or VI was number 2, but I ultimately have to agree with you.

 

II was just awesome. That's the best way to put it. Khan is the best Star Trek villain ever, none of the other movies come close on great space battle sequences, and there was so much drama and suspense. Characterization was also really good in this one.

 

IV hit the nail on the head on characterization, there was definitely a lot of humor (Catherine Hicks slamming into a cloaked Bird of Prey), plus there are some of my favorite lines from the whole series ("everyone remember where we parked" or "I think he did a little too much LDS"). Plus, Catherine Hicks. :grin:

 

VI had a nice battle scene there at the end, Christopher Plummer made an awesome Klingon, and it had some good one-liners as well. They also did a good job with characterization here, I think. The music for this one was just awesome as well. It was a fitting finale for the series. Oh yeah, and Kim Catrall. :grin:

 

III was okay, but it got boring at times. It started out really slow and was kind of hard to get into. Though I still love the part where they break McCoy out of jail (don't call me tiny) and steal the Enterprise (Good Morning, Captain). This is the only reason I rate III higher than I, because it set up the scene at the end of IV where they read off the long list of charges.

 

I was definitely a rehashing of "The Changeling," though again I have to give props for making the leap to the big screen. Plus, I still remember the first time I watched it and found out it was Voyager (well...one that hasn't been built yet). I loved studying the Voyager missions as a kid, and I was a kid when I watched it for the first time.

 

V was...well...different. It really didn't fit in with the rest of the series. It did have a good spiritual message, which I view in a different light now that I am no longer a Christian. There were also some good lines, but something about it was just off. The acting also wasn't the greatest, either.

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V was...well...different. It really didn't fit in with the rest of the series. It did have a good spiritual message, which I view in a different light now that I am no longer a Christian. There were also some good lines, but something about it was just off. The acting also wasn't the greatest, either.

 

"What does God need with a starship?"

 

Sort of like, "What does God need with a virgin?" :grin:

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V was...well...different. It really didn't fit in with the rest of the series. It did have a good spiritual message, which I view in a different light now that I am no longer a Christian. There were also some good lines, but something about it was just off. The acting also wasn't the greatest, either.

 

"What does God need with a starship?"

 

Sort of like, "What does God need with a virgin?" :grin:

 

LOL! Though that hits a little close to home...

 

Damn you, Steve Carell and your The 40 Year Old Virgin movie!

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Hi Misterspock,

 

I have enjoyed reading the conversation between yourself and Trekkie; I always loved Star Trek too. My 12 year old son actually likes watching reruns of Voyager episodes when he gets home from school in the afternoons (he's out for the summer now but enjoyed them this past school year). I remember laying in front of the tv with my head perched on my hands, eyes glued to the screen when Trek was on. I also remember the arguments I had with my brothers about who had to get up to change the channel once the show was over! :) (Showing my age here... life before remote controls!)

 

Regarding your deconversion and the other things you have said on this thread... I absolutely admire you for your courage in not only walking away from the church, but for being open about your change in belief. I haven't "come out of the closet" yet; my husband is the only person who knows how much I am struggling with faith. He is not religious at all (anytime we have gone to church in our almost 18 years of marriage has been because I insisted and got everyone up and ready on time), but he is seriously pissed at me for questioning the faith. My family of origin was, and continues to be, extremely evangelistic and fundamentalistic. My dad was an elder, my mom was a deacon, my older brother is now a missionary with a parachurch organization overseas and my younger brother is an ordained minister here in Ohio. So I am greatly afraid of telling them that I'm not a Christian anymore. I guess I am trying to have all my arguments cemented in my mind before I tell them, so I'll be ready for whatever they throw at me. I am fairly certain that my parents and brothers will treat me the way your mom has treated you. I am hopeful that my husband will choose to stay with me, but I don't know if that will be the case. *Sigh* So I am really proud of you and inspired by you for walking away from Christianity and being open with your family and former fiancee about it.

 

You talked about being suicidal... I have certainly been there many times myself. I even attempted suicide last year (2007). I am, therefore, in no position to judge you or criticize you. I understand how that depth of depression makes you feel. But I would like to encourage you not to give up. Life is, truly, worthwhile. I was on the psych ward of the local hospital in May of this year; dealing with some pretty deep traumas from the past. My psychiatrist told me that suicide is a permanent answer to temporary problems. It is also just the beginning of new, profound problems for the people who love us. There have been so many times when I have felt that life was completely hopeless and pointless. Such despair is suffocating, isn't it? I am finding myself now looking for hope in this world, instead of having hope in an afterlife. There are so many people on this earth who need help, and I want to do whatever I can to alleviate suffering and encourage people in this life.

 

Hang in there.

 

Thinking of you,

Susan

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  • 3 months later...
Guest ruanddu

Misterspock - I know the fear you are going through regarding Hell. I recommend this book: www.hopebeyondhell.net. The book does an amazing job of arguing against the traditional view of Hell by researching the original Greek words and translating them. After I read the book I felt a peace that I hadn't had before. It was written by a Universalist author, however, his argument is still impressive. Best wishes.

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The church knows all the little tricks and gimmicks for getting you to believe and keep believing. I have been saying ever since I left that Christianity has had two thousand years to work all this teaching, all this psychological manipulation, all this brainwashing, into a nice little pill that is easy to swallow, and they will even shove it down your throat for you!

 

Actually, the various American protestant sects are particularly good at that. There was a great book written by a sociologist about "religious economy." I'll dig it up for you when I have time. Basically, the European state-supported churches got fat and lazy, whereas the various sects in the American hillbilly wilderness (many of whom were kicked out of Europe for being too nuts) were totally on their own and they had to compete (with each other in many cases) to get souls saved and wallets opened in order to survive and thrive. The sects that are huge and powerful today are the ones that were "naturally selected" for back in the 1700s and 1800s.

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Guest danny64

thank you for sharing, i can sypathize. hang in there bud, as one of the others put it, you are stronger than perhaps you realilze. do you have any fellow exchristian friends to conversate with? that has to be one of the brightest parts about deconverting for me. i have several friends i can get together with and talk...laugh, make a little fun of the jebus stuff, watch george carlin, talk about books we've read or points we've thought of.

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thank you for sharing, i can sypathize. hang in there bud, as one of the others put it, you are stronger than perhaps you realilze. do you have any fellow exchristian friends to conversate with? that has to be one of the brightest parts about deconverting for me. i have several friends i can get together with and talk...laugh, make a little fun of the jebus stuff, watch george carlin, talk about books we've read or points we've thought of.

 

That's one of the reasons for a forum like this. Although we can't see each other face-to-face, we can still meet friends who are on a similar journey, so necessary to help us traverse the terrain. After all, when we leave Christianity, we are not just leaving a worldview and a set of beliefs, we are, many times, also leaving an entire culture and a body of social structure.

 

It certainly isn't that we need to go from dependency on one group to dependency on another. It just that deconversion can make us feel so damn alone. Christianity is designed that way.

 

It would be nice if, someday, someone came up with a 12-step program for deconversion, "Hi, my name is Bill. I'm a Christoholic." :scratch:

 

bill

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