The Problem of Sin

[chefranden]

It has probably been a couple of forums since we last discussed the problem of sin.

 

There are two basic Christian ideas concerning the nature of sin.

 

1. Somehow we have inherited sin that has been passed down from Adam through our parents and their parents and so on and on. This apparently is something like a genetic defect.

 

2. We are born innocent but somehow at some time before the age of accountability we choose to be sinners. Sometimes this is explained by saying we are born flawed in such a manner that we cannot use a good. This is really not any different than the idea of original sin, except that it makes people feel better about adult baptism instead of infant baptism.

 

The main problem with sin is that no one can choose not to sin. If this were really a matter of free will some people would choose not to sin. It would seem that somewhere in the neighborhood of 50% of the human population would be sinless. Since this is not the case it is impossible that we have free will at least in the matter of sin.

 

Most humans (I acknowledge my assumption here) feel that it would be improper to condemn someone for having a genetic defect, say being born with six fingers. Therefore, God being more moral than we are, cannot be just and condemn us for something we have no control over. Now it is true that a genetic defect may be deadly. If that is the case with original sin, we may die. However, it is just a silly to consider it condemnation as it would be to consider sickle cell anemia condemnation. Since God is the originator of these things it would be up to him to fix the problem. Christians say the problem has been fixed by the passion of Christ. The problem with this claim is that it does not fix the defect. First it does not correct the defect for all those babies who have been born subsequently to the death of Christ. So the only way we may view this is that the passion of Christ is something like medicine. This has been compared to the bronze serpent that Moses lifted up to save people from snakebite.

 

The medicine idea is problematic in that it supplies no cure. Christians often say they are not perfect only saved. In fact few Christians if any will claim they have quit sinning. Therefore at best the medicine of Christ's passion is a mere treatment, and not a cure. Instead of a cure it appears to be something like a get out of jail free card.

 

Christian religion does not pay much attention to the idea of the passion as medicine. Most Christians would agree that a person who has led a reprobate life and who is lucky enough can accept the get out of jail free card at the last minute. Therefore God has not taken care of the defect. God has taken care of only the effect of the defect. Which means of course those who do not have access to the get out of jail free card are shit out of luck. Calvinists get around this problem by presuming those that don't get a card are already condemned before they are even born. That is they were never meant to get a card in the first place. Or in other words, God never meant to take care of the defect.

 

Christians ignore the fact that the Old Testament says that a person may take care of the problem of sin on his or her own (actually on on his own -- men took care of the sin of their women). All the sacrifices for sin that God supposedly set down erased the sin. Moreover according to Ezekiel chapter 18 a man could correct his sin problem simply by changing its behavior. This change of behavior erased the sin.

 

Another problem with sin is that according to Ezekiel it is not a defect inherited from one's father either in the first way or the second period

[orthodox christian]

That is Western Christianity. It all makes sense (to me, at least) when it is explained by Orthodoxy.

 

Here we go. As Esekiel sais, sin cannot be transfered from father to the son. We are not guilty of Adam's sin, but we inherited the consequences, like you say, the defect, and death. We inherit the tendency to sin, because sin changes your nature from God like to the opposite. It's a natural defect which indeed needs a cure. That cure is Baptism which Christ brought. Baptism regenerates the nature and makes it pure and God-like again, and your will becomes stronger. Because before baptism you could wish good, but could do only primitive kind of good, you could not resist sin and free yourself from it. After Baptism, you get the Holy Spirit and then you have control over yourself and can get rid of sin, in other words, become sinless (and many did). But only if you choose to do that, because even after Baptism you can fall and live a pretty wicked life.

 

And your free will can get to to receive Baptism, but not just any Baptism, but the Apostolic one.

 

Some of the people who were born before Christ are saved. When Christ died, He descended into Hell and freed some of the faithful and put them in Heaven.

 

And in Orthodoxy, God does not punish and does not condemn anyone. It is us who punish ourselves.

[SmallStone]

And your free will can get to to receive Baptism, but not just any Baptism, but the Apostolic one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let me see if I understand correctly. I was baptized as a dirty western protestant. However, after that baptism, I continued to 'sin'. In fact, I still do 'sin'. For a while, I even tried really hard to not 'sin'. Why did the Holy Spirit abandon me and refuse to assist me in my efforts?

 

Is it just because I didn't get the Apostolic baptism?

[Ouroboros]

It has probably been a couple of forums since we last discussed the problem of sin.

 

There are two basic Christian ideas concerning the nature of sin.

 

1.  Somehow we have inherited sin that has been passed down from Adam through our parents and their parents and so on and on.  This apparently is something like a genetic defect. 

 

 

Probably it's the free will and egoism (both natural instincts we're born with) that are the real sin.

 

We can't help that he have it, and we have to lay both down to God to be saved. Basically give up what he gave us.

 

(Just theorizing here, I'm still an agnostic)

 

Then the christians should be buddhists instead, right? Or is it hinduism, I can't remember...

[LloydDobler]

That is Western Christianity. It all makes sense (to me, at least) when it is explained by Orthodoxy.

See Chef, you just don't know TRUE CHRISTIANITY.

We inherit the tendency to sin, because sin changes your nature from God like to the opposite.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So we sin because we sin? We didn't inherit the sin but the tendency to sin, and that makes us sinful? Do you even know how to think?

 

Orthodoxy must be so convincing because it creates a complete suspension of logic and critical thought, through confusion and circular phrases.

[Guest Priapus]

Let me see if I understand correctly. I was baptized as a dirty western protestant. However, after that baptism, I continued to 'sin'. In fact, I still do 'sin'. For a while, I even tried really hard to not 'sin'. Why did the Holy Spirit abandon me and refuse to assist me in my efforts?

 

Is it just because I didn't get the Apostolic baptism?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

What SmallStone said. I've heard this argument, the "oh, but did you get the special annointing when you professed your devotion to the Lord?"

 

As if somehow my earnest confession and begging God for communion with Him was somehow a defective factory second and thus didn't count.

[Ouroboros]

That is Western Christianity. It all makes sense (to me, at least) when it is explained by Orthodoxy.

 

Here we go. As Esekiel sais, sin cannot be transfered from father to the son. We are not guilty of Adam's sin, but we inherited the consequences, like you say, the defect, and death. We inherit the tendency to sin, because sin changes your nature from God like to the opposite. It's a natural defect which indeed needs a cure. That cure is Baptism which Christ brought. Baptism regenerates the nature and makes it pure and God-like again, and your will becomes stronger. Because before baptism you could wish good, but could do only primitive kind of good, you could not resist sin and free yourself from it. After Baptism, you get the Holy Spirit and then you have control over yourself and can get rid of sin, in other words, become sinless (and many did). But only if you choose to do that, because even after Baptism you can fall and live a pretty wicked life.

 

And your free will can get to to receive Baptism, but not just any Baptism, but the Apostolic one.

 

Some of the people who were born before Christ are saved. When Christ died, He descended into Hell and freed some of the faithful and put them in Heaven.

 

And in Orthodoxy, God does not punish and does not condemn anyone. It is us who punish ourselves.

 

Sounds good in theory, but statistically shouldn't then a strong religious country have less crime than a strong atheistic?

 

Sweden have the largest percent of atheists. (50-60%)

America is very high up on the percent of christians (70-80%, only 6% or less atheists)

Yet, America have 4 times higher crime rate than Sweden.

 

How can that be?

[Ouroboros]

What SmallStone said. I've heard this argument, the "oh, but did you get the special annointing when you professed your devotion to the Lord?"

 

As if somehow my earnest confession and begging God for communion with Him was somehow a defective factory second and thus didn't count.

 

God doesn't have any "lemon" laws, so you can't return your salvation for repair or replacement when it's faulty ... sorry!

[Ouroboros]

See Chef, you just don't know TRUE CHRISTIANITY.

 

So we sin because we sin?  We didn't inherit the sin but the tendency to sin, and that makes us sinful?  Do you even know how to think? 

 

Orthodoxy must be so convincing because it creates a complete suspension of logic and critical thought, through confusion and circular phrases.

 

We sin because we're humans. It's human to sin. Our genetic programming forces us to sin, and only a blood transfusion and decapitation can really stop it.

[chefranden]

That is Western Christianity. It all makes sense (to me, at least) when it is explained by Orthodoxy. 

Hello there, Orthodox Christian, I was kind of excited when I saw that you had made a post to this topic. I thought finally we are going to get a new point of view from a Christian. But I am somewhat disappointed.

 

Here we go. As Esekiel sais, sin cannot be transfered from father to the son. We are not guilty of Adam's sin, but we inherited the consequences, like you say, the defect, and death. We inherit the tendency to sin, because sin changes your nature from God like to the opposite. It's a natural defect which indeed needs a cure.

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That cure is Baptism which Christ brought. Baptism regenerates the nature and makes it pure and God-like again, and your will becomes stronger. Because before baptism you could wish good, but could do only primitive kind of good, you could not resist sin and free yourself from it. After Baptism, you get the Holy Spirit and then you have control over yourself and can get rid of sin, in other words, become sinless (and many did). But only if you choose to do that, because even after Baptism you can fall and live a pretty wicked life.

I don't see where this is any different than a Western Christian' s point of view when you say we inherit the tendency to sin. But I don't want to jump to conclusions. Are you saying that a person can choose not to sin before baptism? That is there are people who are not sinful and are not in danger of the consequence without Christ?

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I assume you have been baptized. Have you gotten rid of sin? Have you chosen to get rid of sin? Why is it still is struggle not to sin? If you have been cured of the defect it should be simply a matter of choice. It should be no more difficult than choosing between strawberry or chocolate pie. If that is so, why are there so few saints? If I had the defect of being born without arms, it would probably be impossible to use a knife and fork. However, if by some magic trick of God my arms are given to me, an ability to use a knife and fork would also be given to me.

 

And your free will can get to to receive Baptism, but not just any Baptism, but the Apostolic one. 

I don't think I'm quite understanding this. Are you saying that free will extends only to accepting baptism, and not choosing to be sinless?

 

It is pretty much meaningless to say that your baptism is better than someone else's baptism, as you have no way of showing that God accepts your baptism instead of someone else's. There are many other sects that would say your baptism is useless. Whether you call it apostolic or not.

 

Some of the people who were born before Christ are saved. When Christ died, He descended into Hell and freed some of the faithful and put them in Heaven.

Why only some? And what you mean by faithful? Faithful to what?

 

And in Orthodoxy, God does not punish and does not condemn anyone. It is us who punish ourselves.

This is not anything different than a Western Christian would say.

[Guest Son of Belial]

Some of the people who were born before Christ are saved. When Christ died, He descended into Hell and freed some of the faithful and put them in Heaven.

 

Can I see a scripture to back this up?

[Guest bdp]

After Baptism, you get the Holy Spirit and then you have control over yourself and can get rid of sin, in other words, become sinless (and many did). But only if you choose to do that, because even after Baptism you can fall and live a pretty wicked life.

 

...so the holy spirit is powerless because I still choose if I'm going to 'sin' or not. There is no holy spirit, I prayed for years to be delivered of certain 'sins' and exercised every bit of self control I had and couldn't stop. Know what? There is no holy spirit and what the bible demonizes as 'sin' is just human nature in action, nothing evil, wicked, bad or wrong about it.

 

bdp

[Guest JP1283]

This reminds of me of my ex-friend Megan's mom. Megan was talking with her because one of her friends was gay (me) and she basically wanted to know what she could do to help, since she was a Christian and she was pretty sure that gays went to hell. She also played devil's advocate and asked her mom "What if gays can't change?" Her mom responded that "Everyone is born with a sin inside them, and through prayer they can work it out." Her mom isn't a pastor or anything, she's just some fat bitch who eats like a fucking vaccuum, yet she knows all about gays and sin. Needless to say that was the beginning of the end of my friendship with Megan.

 

Didn't mean to hijack the thread, but I thought I'd share that with y'all. Carry on!

 

JP

[Ouroboros]

Now Han,  it's because American Christians have had a special "revelation".  You see, even though there are ton's of do's and don't in the Bible, Chrisitans can pick and choose.  Christians can harp on homosexuals but go and enjoy a sexually explicit movie because that darn Spirit hasn't pulled on their hearts to stop. Even though Paul, in almost each epistle gives a list of characteristics that show a false Christian, Christians in later years decided that Paul was wrong.  You see Han, Paul is right about the law being abolished, but not right on things couldn't do. Therefore a christian can murder but god will look that over because all christians "grow" at different rates.  The spirit hasn't led that person to not sin yet, also we musn't forget Satan, that devil, prowling around like a lion.

 

The Atheists, those evil doers, do not have a god or devil.  When they are good it is because they just choose to be good.  They don't have the spirit or devil to blame so their minds aren't so screwed up either.  No worries about after life, eternal security, meat laws, etc.  In other words; No guide book making them wonder and strive and stress to find out what in the hell they have to do to please a perfect god. In general, they are probably very happy people. That is why Sweden, a nation of evil doers, has such a low crime rate.

 

Well, I hope that helps!

 

Good answer.

 

(Actually it was kind of a rhetorical question, I kind of understand why, but I wanted to see your opinions. I probably should have spelled that out a bit.)

 

I think you're right, and just wanted to add:

 

The the crime rate is higher in a religious country could prove (well look at it the statistical way), that religion really doesn't help that much to become a better person. But instead it creates (like you're saying) a tension that makes people think and crave for the sin more, just because it's taboo.

 

In several (many) occasions I've seen the people that strongly speak against certain sins, have a problem in their own life, with the exact same sin.

 

One person I met told me that I could never handle a lot of money or working as a consultant meeting beatiful women. He told me I would start cheating etc. Well 15 years later, I'm still good, without a God I still have strong morals. But that guy, just 6 months after he said it (15 years ago), he left his wife for some single, rich lady. So look who's talking!

 

There are several examples of this. One of my brothers was the "white" sheep in the family (white sheep like the opposite to black sheep), he preached and did mission work and told us about honor your marriage etc. He left his wife too.

 

The stronger you suppress feelings and emotions, the stronger they get, and the more problem they become in your life. I'm not suggesting giving in to every wild thought, but sometimes, just admitting that you have certain feelings and "sins" in your life and you can't remove them, could be better than to fight with all power you have.

 

It's like the saying "the squeaky wheel gets the grease".

And the bully in the schoolyard get all the attention.

[Ouroboros]

This reminds of me of my ex-friend Megan's mom.  Megan was talking with her because one of her friends was gay (me) and she basically wanted to know what she could do to help, since she was a Christian™ and she was pretty sure that gays went to hell.  She also played devil's advocate and asked her mom "What if gays can't change?"  Her mom responded that "Everyone is born with a sin inside them, and through prayer they can work it out."  Her mom isn't a pastor or anything, she's just some fat bitch who eats like a fucking vaccuum, yet she knows all about gays and sin.  Needless to say that was the beginning of the end of my friendship with Megan.

 

Didn't mean to hijack the thread, but I thought I'd share that with y'all.  Carry on!

 

JP

 

Isn't gluttony a deadly sin too?

[Lanakila]

The biggest thing that took me so long to realize was that even the Bible says that you would not know sin without the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit illuminating it to the individual. Trouble with that doctrine is that how can someone know they need to be saved in the first place, if they don't know sin without the Bible/Holy Spirit and someone preaching it to them? They wouldn't, and would be either unaccountable for that sin like the Catholics believe, or going to hell for something they don't even know they are doing. As a former missionary/evangelist my hope was that God would see fit to not punish someone for something they had know knowledge about, but at the same time the fear that he would, so we had to tell them. But, if we told them and they then rejected, when they might have been safe before, then our telling them would only condemn them now. What a dilemna, and its no wonder I lived in fear for the souls of the world.

 

But if you read the Biblical account from Genesis 3 where sin comes into the world by Adam's and Eve's sin--this mythical story creates the disease "sin". Those Christians that try to reject the Genesis account are picking and choosing which verses are true and which aren't based on their own feeling. Later the sacrificial system is created to give a temporary cure for that sin disease. But, the cure had its faults and only the Jews had the cure. So a new cure was brought by Jesus. But even this cure wasn't a thorough cure because like was mentioned most Christians don't claim to be sinfree. In fact as has been mentioned the whole sin-repent-forgiveness-sin again cycle creates people who think they have no power over their own selves. I have met Christians that think they would be murderers but for God's power in their lives. Which means that they are not in control of their own selves, and if they ever do lose their faith--watch out because they have no morals without some book controlling them.

[Ouroboros]

I know you did, from having seen other posts you've written. Just having a fun time with the whole thread.

 

Absolutely, which you have all right to do.

 

Besides, a lot of our posts doesn't necessarely have to be to answer who made the questions, but to give the answer to the ones that only read and don't know.

So, Thankful, I think you're wonderful.

[Ouroboros]

The biggest thing that took me so long to realize was that even the Bible says that you would not know sin without the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit illuminating it to the individual. Trouble with that doctrine is that how can someone know they need to be saved in the first place, if they don't know sin without the Bible/Holy Spirit and someone preaching it to them? They wouldn't, and would be either unaccountable for that sin like the Catholics believe, or going to hell for something they don't even know they are doing. As a former missionary/evangelist my hope was that God would see fit to not punish someone for something they had know knowledge about, but at the same time the fear that he would, so we had to tell them. But, if we told them and they then rejected, when they might have been safe before, then our telling them would only condemn them now. What a dilemna, and its no wonder I lived in fear for the souls of the world.

 

This is a good one, and I feel compelled to give my extra 2 cents too it.

 

A friend of mine, her brother is very religious, and she's not, and we used to talk a lot about religion. Anyway we were talking about this same subject, that if someone doesn't know about Jesus at all, God will still save them, and judge them based on their knowledge (or lack thereof), but if you've heard the gospel, it's your decision to accept or not, and only if you do, you're save.

 

So I told her,

"Tell your brother: Screw you, you messed my life up! If you hadn't told me about Jesus in the first place then I would have gone to heaven. But now, after you told me, if I won't accept, then I'm going to hell. And IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT!"

 

She totally liked that, but I never asked her later if she did tell him.

[Eponymic]

I have met Christians that think they would be murderers but for God's power in their lives. Which means that they are not in control of their own selves, and if they ever do lose their faith--watch out because they have no morals without some book controlling them.

 

Which leads us write back to one of the reasons the crime rate is higher in an excessively religious country- like the US.

[Mike D]

All sinners are not created equal. Isn't sin just doing something that Christianity tells you you're not supposed to do? Like breaking a rule? If it is so, then some people are predisposed to automatically "sin" more than others (i.e. homosexuals, natural thrill seekers, risk takers, critical thinkers, people born into non-christian nations, etc).

 

For example, your average heterosexual Joe who was born as a Christian in the US, is of average intelligence, has an average job, lives in an average community, happens to find a woman he loves and who loves him, is satisfied with a life of working 40 hours, church on sunday, raising the kids, etc. etc. etc, isn't going to be tempted by all these other "horrible" sins like homosexuality, questioning the Bible, atheism, blasphemy, idolatry, adultery, etc, because his natural tendencies, circumstances, environment etc do not predispose him to commiting them. Ok yeah, every once in awhile good old Joe might have to occasionally stop himself from looking at a beautiful woman a few seconds too long before he commits the sin of "lust in the heart", but this can be easily resolved by going home and screwing his wife a couple of times to get it out of his system (which I might add has God's total approval). Other than that, your average middle class American Christian who has enough money not to be tempted to steal, has no reason to lie, murder, etc. etc etc, can follow the Christian rules pretty easily. And he can credit all this to the power of the holy spirit.

 

As for myself, I have no problem not commiting the sin of murder. And it ain't because of the holy spirit, it is simply because I have no desire to commit murder, just like the majority of humans whether they have the holy spirit or Jesus in them or not.

 

I guess what I am saying here is that it seems to me that the Christian model was designed for average people who can easily stay compliant with the Christian rules and therefore keep the "sins" at a minimum, which to many of them is "proof" that Jesus and the holy spirit are working in your life. Everyone else who doesn't naturally fit within those parameters either struggles greatly, maybe adopts "liberal" Christianity, or ends up at sites like this .

[Guest Slayer-2004]

We are not guilty of Adam's sin, but we inherited the consequences

 

So much for all just . XD

[Amethyst]

Of course the concept of sin doesn't make sense, because it's brainwashing. It's the cult trying to make people feel guilty for being human. It's the only way they get people to stay in it on a long-term basis. Excessive guilt leads to low self-esteem, and to thinking that you're not good enough to let anyone except the cult's leader control your thoughts.

 

Those little visits from God Madame X is talking about, that's called your Inner Critic. That's the voice that tells you you're too fat, too ugly, too stupid, too sinful, etc. It's NOT God talking, it's low self-esteem. I know because I've been there, and I struggle with it a lot. I'm getting better, but it takes a long time to recover from it.

 

Do you people really believe that a deity would truly want his/her followers to hate themselves? What kind of divine being would want people to do that? Not one worth worshipping, in my book. That kind of thinking only leads to depression and suicide. Get some help from a psychologist if you are truly thinking that way or at least read some self-help books.

[necrosmith]

Can I see a scripture to back this up?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ditto. I'd like to see a scripture to back this up as well.

 

I'm wondering where this fable came from.

[Baggs]

Hi,

I remember Jesus said before to hinder not the children to come to me for such is the kingdom of heaven.

I personally consider that to be a clue to show us that children are indeed innocent till they willingly do evil with full knowledge and conscience.

I heard somone say before in another forum "God cannot call a retard for double dribble".

Although I personally dont like to focus on the fact that we screwed up, but on the fact that we can be made right with God. And that is what I think Christianity is all about. Realizing that we screwed up, but God is loving that he wants us to be forgiven IF we are willing to turn away from our sins and trust in the Saviour.

[All Gods Fail]

Hi,

I remember Jesus said before to hinder not the children to come to me for such is the kingdom of heaven.

I personally consider that to be a clue to show us that children are indeed innocent till they willingly do evil with full knowledge and conscience.

I heard somone say before in another forum "God cannot call a retard for double dribble".

Although I personally dont like to focus on the fact that we screwed up, but on the fact that we can be made right with God. And that is what I think Christianity is all about. Realizing that we screwed up, but God is loving that he wants us to be forgiven IF we are willing to turn away from our sins and trust in the Saviour.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But again, xtians continue to sin the rest of their lives. Is there no way christ's sacrifice can defeat sin? We're just too corrupt for his blood to transform us? Even if we're baptized, repent, get born again, pray, struggle against the flesh and the world and the devil, and love the lord with all our heart, can nothing can stop us from sinning even a tiny bit?

 

How do we turn away from our sins if we're all sinful creatures and it's encoded in our DNA to sin, even after accepting christ's salvation?

 

And if children are innocent, why did god tell the Israelites to rip the Amekelite babies from their mother's wombs? Even if their parents were horrible ghouls just waiting for the kid to be born so they could sacrifice it to their loathesome gods, why didn't god tell the Jews to take all the babies away from the Amekelites so they could be spared, and raised properly?

 

Etc, etc.