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Goodbye Jesus

The Problem of Sin


chefranden

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And how do you know it didn't? You have proof? Oh, wait, wait, you were there?What plot hole? Adam is perfect, accordingly he should make the perfect choice. But he didn't, that's the key to the plot.

 

It's not the key to the plot, it's the hole in the plot. Adam was perfect, he should make the perfect choice, he didn't...that's a plot hole. How do I know it didn't? Because that's what the story says, and that's what we're talking about.

You base Genesis and Adam as THE very foundation of Christianity? OK I see. Bummer. My entire religion has just crumbled into a heap of illogical myths. Oh well  :shrug: *sob*

 

Well...let's seee.....that's how it supposedly all started, isn't it? Sounds like a foundation to me.

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...

 

Secondly, like Asimov was debating earlier, the world was Perfect, meaning, no faults, not errors, no bugs, no kinks in the system, no problems, but sin or acting on sin is an inperfect act! And not only that, the fruit of good and evil, alludes to that evil already existed, yet the world was perfect. How can that be? We have a world that is perfect, but already evil exists, before A&E sinned. This means evil is perfect too, and sinning is perfect also, it is God's perfect intention for sin and evil to exists, so why the frikkin hell does it bother him so much? Why eternal punishment and torture for something that he consider perfect and makes him happy? The only solution is that he enjoys the thought of people going to hell for torture.

 

Wow. I guess the writers didn't think there would ever be any readers above 2nd grade level understanding.

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Is it just me or do we x's tend to hold god to a higher standard than most active christians?

 

I always think Christians hold people to a higher standard then they do god. Like okay let's say a child is being beaten, severely, life threateningly. A police officer walks by the house this is happening in, he can hear and see it. He gets a closer look and confirms what is going on. The police officer then walks away and lets the adult beat the child to death. If others find out he callously walked away this officer could be brought up on charges, he is bound to serve and protect. Almost every Chrisitan I know would say this police officer was not only neglegent, but a horrible person deserving of punishment.

God though?? God does not save the child, although he could, and although he knows. He does nothing, children die of abuse because god cannot be moved to act. No matter the excuse, free will, destruction of faith through too much proof, etc. He could stop all child abuse, he chooses not to, but it's god, so its okay.

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...

    Read it over a few times and realize that no matter how you sum it up that no creature like bible god can exist and act like anything described in your little book.  He's either flawed or simply doesn't do anything.  Since that alone is enough contradiction to falsify the entirety of the story (as it hinges on a perfect "god" as well as his perfect works and plan) there's no point in discussing, or believing in, a jesus or anything else related to the bible doctrine (I'll still debunk it since I find it to be harmful but beyond that it's barely a good myth).

 

    mwc

 

well, that's a great nutshell summation!

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Wow.  I guess the writers didn't think there would ever be any readers above 2nd grade level understanding.

It's a religion for morons... Anyone with an IQ that's above room temperature can see that it's senseless.

 

The smarter ones interpret it to smooth out the cracks, but end up putting new cracks in.

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It's a religion for morons... Anyone with an IQ that's above room temperature can see that it's senseless.

:HaHa: We better keep our rooms warm then!!!

 

The smarter ones interpret it to smooth out the cracks, but end up putting new cracks in.

It's because they use a sledgehammer to smooth the cracks... :grin:

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I'm not debating that point.

 

I'm disputing his 100%, no-fail. guaranteed "get baptised and you'll be filled with the HS" method.

 

 

At the end of the day it doesn't matter. According to you worldview he will be saved cause he believes in Christ and repentence. He may disagree on minor issues I suppose.

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At the end of the day it doesn't matter. According to you worldview he will be saved cause he believes in Christ and repentence. He may disagree on minor issues I suppose.

Yup. (I'll elaborate...)

 

And still, if you believe in Christ and repent, then become an apostate, the argument comes up that "you were never a True Christian™ anyway". That proves that no one is a True Christian™ through their faith.

 

Could you be a True Christian™ through your actions instead? Nope, not that either.

 

Are you a True Christian™ through God's mystical and unknowable will? Sure, which means it doesn't matter what you believe or not believe, or do or not do, it's all up to a supposed God to roll a dice on you.

 

That's it. In the end, it doesn't matter what you do or believe in this life.

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It's because they use a sledgehammer to smooth the cracks...

 

Not to mention, doing complicated gymnastics to leap over the cracks and pretend like the cracks aren't even there.

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Let me give you a hand Asimov: Adam (perfection incarnate): I stand here before my ??? This female granted to me by god who is similar to me to alleviate my loneliness. She is saying that she has eaten of a fruit of the tree which God has commanded me not to eat. She says has done exactly as it's name suggests: granted her knowledge of good and evil.

 

She's asking me to take a bite out of it. But my god has commanded me not to eat it, although he said in the day that we do, we'd die. I don't quite know what die is, but, god warned us against it, therefore, he being our creator, must know that this wouldn't be favorable. I think I won't eat this fruit and ask god about it later.

 

Oops. I screwed up. Here we go:

 

Eve (perfection incarnate): I stand here before this snake, holding this ??? fruit, off the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which God has commanded us not to eat from. Now this snake is saying that God has lied about what will happen. Since I, having never experienced 'die' don't know what that is, I don't know what change that will bring when I eat this fruit. Also, God created me, given me everything I could want, and seems to care for me, and thinks that this 'die' thing wouldn't be favorable. I think therefore I'll disbelieve this snake, and ask God about it later.

 

I don't know, if perfection is perfection with relation to the perfect god who created them, then logic too (within the bounds of what they know) should also be perfect. So the former scenario wouldn't have happened at all. Ever.

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I don't know, if perfection is perfection with relation to the perfect god who created them, then logic too (within the bounds of what they know) should also be perfect. So the former scenario wouldn't have happened at all. Ever.

 

Yes!!! Excellent point. If the Bible was perfect, then all of the logic in it would be perfect and not contradictory. But the Bible's logic contradicts itself. It's the ultimate logical fallacy.

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Yes!!!  Excellent point.  If the Bible was perfect, then all of the logic in it would be perfect and not contradictory.  But the Bible's logic contradicts itself.  It's the ultimate logical fallacy.

 

Off course. It is a book written by fallible men. The bible was voted in by fallible men.

 

And then a few hundred years later a fallible man takes out a certain number of books to correct this book.

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Let me give you a hand Asimov:  Adam (perfection incarnate): I stand here before my ???  This female granted to me by god who is similar to me to alleviate my loneliness.  She is saying that she has eaten of a fruit of the tree which God has commanded me not to eat. She says has done exactly as it's name suggests: granted her knowledge of good and evil.

 

She's asking me to take a bite out of it.  But my god has commanded me not to eat it, although he said in the day that we do, we'd die.  I don't quite know what die is, but, god warned us against it, therefore, he being our creator, must know that this wouldn't be favorable.  I think I won't eat this fruit and ask god about it later.

 

Oops. I screwed up.  Here we go:

 

Eve (perfection incarnate):  I stand here before this snake, holding  this  ??? fruit, off the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which God has commanded us not to eat from.  Now this snake is saying that God has lied about what will happen.  Since I, having never experienced 'die' don't know what that is, I don't know what change that will bring when I eat this fruit.  Also, God created me, given me everything I could want, and seems to care for me, and thinks that this 'die' thing wouldn't be favorable.  I think therefore I'll disbelieve this snake, and ask God about it later.

 

I don't know, if perfection is perfection with relation to the perfect god who created them, then logic too (within the bounds of what they know) should also be perfect.  So the former scenario wouldn't have happened at all. Ever.

 

Ah, her hair must have turned Blonde when she ate of the fruit.

 

For on the day you eat of it, ye shall surely dye.

 

And the first hair dresser was born.

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mwc,

 

God is perfect

 

Perfection is unchanging

Hmmmm... depends. What if the standard for measuring that perfection changes due to the discovery of new measuring "equipment"?

 

Let's say we discover the "perfect" diamond, then we invent another super whatever that can measure it to another nth degree ~ then it's not so perfect anymore.

 

But we are talking about Adam, why did he disobey? Could it be a very persuasive Eve. God deliberately being funny? Nahhh... Must be flawed story. Or wrongly recorded.

 

God is unchanging

 

God is all things (omni-everything, "I am", "Alpha and Omega" etc.)

All things wants for nothing as it is the collection of everything

God wants for nothing

God wants nothing? Maybe He desires sucking up to? Yeah lots of praise. I don't know... if not why does He try so hard to terrorise His own creations with such atrocities? Then change His mind, and gives them another chance.

 

 

God cannot want worship

God cannot want belief in him

God cannot want companionship

See above "logic".

 

God cannot want change

God cannot change

Uhhh... I don't know. He's so fickle. Especially in OT, destroy this ppl, save this ppl. Heal this guy. Leper this gal. Polygamy in OT, not ok in NT. Unchanging? Maybe his creations asked for permission to tweak His holy book?

 

If God cannot change God is not omni-everything

If God does change God was not perfect

Perfect in His own eyes. Not in His wise creation's eyes.

 

If God does not want anything God is complete

If God is complete God does not act

If God does not act God is inert

Refer to above; I've been told He craves praise and desires/wants us to remember what He did for us (good or bad).

 

Read it over a few times and realize that no matter how you sum it up that no creature like bible god can exist and act like anything described in your little book.

If you say so. Your flawless logic is so, so god-like. I'm impressed.

 

He's either flawed or simply doesn't do anything.

Of course He is flawed; your critical analysis and conclusion is so much, much more 101% perfect. And you are right about the not doing any thing bit too. He has not done any thing for you, right?

 

Since that alone is enough contradiction to falsify the entirety of the story (as it hinges on a perfect "god" as well as his perfect works and plan) there's no point in discussing, or believing in, a jesus or anything else related to the bible doctrine

Yep, end of my digestion and your disgustion.

 

(I'll still debunk it since I find it to be harmful but beyond that it's barely a good myth).

Yes it's harmful to those who do not believe in the xtian god; but i have yet to discover in what way. Well, at least you agree it's a good myth.

 

So do have a good day.

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At the end of the day it doesn't matter. According to you worldview he will be saved cause he believes in Christ and repentence. He may disagree on minor issues I suppose.

 

Grab that book, look for that line! Double the dose of punishment if some body should spout false doctrines.

 

It's in there some where:

 

Peter warns Christians of all ages: “But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways” (2 Peter 2:1,2).

 

There were false prophets in the Old Testament, there will be false teachers among us as well.

 

Jesus warned: “Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many” (Matthew 24:11). The fact that there are many false teachers among us and that many people listen to them is simply a fulfillment of the word of Christ.

 

He also said: “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves” (Matthew 7:15). False teachers are false not only in doctrine but also in their appearance. They pretend to be something they are not. On the inside they are vicious wolves who kill and scatter the sheep. But they wear a sheepskin to trick the sheep.

 

Paul told the elders at Ephesus: “For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves” (Acts 20:29,30).

 

John warned: “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1).

 

Beware of false prophets, preachers and priests. They are more concerned about worldly things than spiritual values. Jesus said to the religious leaders: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.” ... “Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness” (Matthew 23:25 and 28).

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"Perfect" is an ideal, and therefore by definition, does not exist in reality.

 

IMOHO,

:thanks:

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Grab that book, look for that line! Double the dose of punishment if some body should spout false doctrines.

 

It's in there some where:

 

Peter warns Christians of all ages: “But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways” (2 Peter 2:1,2).

 

There were false prophets in the Old Testament, there will be false teachers among us as well.

 

Jesus warned: “Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many” (Matthew 24:11). The fact that there are many false teachers among us and that many people listen to them is simply a fulfillment of the word of Christ.

 

He also said: “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves” (Matthew 7:15). False teachers are false not only in doctrine but also in their appearance. They pretend to be something they are not. On the inside they are vicious wolves who kill and scatter the sheep. But they wear a sheepskin to trick the sheep.

 

Paul told the elders at Ephesus: “For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves” (Acts 20:29,30).

 

John warned: “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1).

 

Beware of false prophets, preachers and priests. They are more concerned about worldly things than spiritual values. Jesus said to the religious leaders: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.” ... “Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness” (Matthew 23:25 and 28).

Yep, beware. Maybe your particular sect if you have one is led by a false preacher?

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mwc,

Hmmmm... depends. What if the standard for measuring that perfection changes due to the discovery of new measuring "equipment"?

 

Let's say we discover the "perfect" diamond, then we invent another super whatever that can measure it to another nth degree ~ then it's not so perfect anymore.

So perfection is fluid after all. So the "perfect god" xians proclaim may not be absolutely perfect as argued? A book that defines "god" better might be found? A better "god" might be found? How can the absolute best of the best unchanging "god" somehow manage to become more perfect? If you're talking about refining the definition there's no need. Perfection is the best. It is complete. No more needs to be added to it. To add to (or remove from) perfection makes it imperfect unless it was never perfect to begin with. By definition, in the bible and xianity as a whole, the accepted definition of "god" is that he is perfect in all respects no matter how you want to define perfection. He is the ultimate thing to strive to be like. When talking relative perfection everything is less than him and nothing can be greater. Perfection is regard to "god" is not fluid and cannot change irregardless of measure.

 

But we are talking about Adam, why did he disobey? Could it be a very persuasive Eve. God deliberately being funny? Nahhh... Must be flawed story. Or wrongly recorded.     

Well, you're talking about Adam. I'm talking about Adam, Eve, "god" and the whole concept of perfection, but we'll go with your thing here. I've read the story. Eve, and the serpent don't come off as "very persuasive" at all. If that's all it takes to sway a perfectly created being into performing an imperfect act then we didn't stand much of a chance at all.

 

God wants nothing? Maybe He desires sucking up to? Yeah lots of praise. I don't know... if not why does He try so hard to terrorise His own creations with such atrocities? Then change His mind, and gives them another chance.

And here Pug points out the fact that he cannot possibly understand the concept of perfection despite definitions being procided to make sure everyone was on the same page as terms go. Pug also makes several good points about the "god" he worships and holds dear. Let's see..."desires sucking up to", "lot's of praise", "terrorise" [sic], "attrocities", "changes his mind."

 

You really need to understand the whole concept of perfection especially in relation to your "god." If these are perfect traits then I can honestly say I am beyond your concept of perfection (and so are most people) especially when it comes to attrocities and terrorism. You also need to understand that something that is complete cannot desire anything. It's not possible. Desire indicates something is lacking that must be added. If "god" desires "sucking up to" then he is lacking (apparently self-esteem). Remember that unlike us "god" cannot grow and mature.

If "god" lacks self-esteem then absolute perfection must not include self-esteem (or any other traits that "god" obviously lacks). Being "sucked up to" will never fill that void and "god" will never be satiated. This all stops making sense the more it is argued when it should really make more sense.

 

If that's even a small portion of what you consider to be traits of a perfect (not to mention loving) "god" then I'd hate to be something that you "loved" in some twisted version of the "trickle down theory."

 

See above "logic".

I assume you speak of the "logic" of a perfect and all loving being performing any number of attrocities to his own "children" as witness as to why we should all (re)convert? Why don't I come over to your house so you can beat me with a pipe? That way we can be best friends. :loser:

 

Maybe you speak of your "logic" that spoke of a perfect, all-knowing "god" that needs to "test" his perfect creation for loyalty? Is this the same "god" that knew everything before he even started creating it? Could "god" not know we'd fail the test until we actually took the test? Not according the the Bible I read. He knew the ending before he even started. Not one thing has happened that he didn't know would happen. No tests required. The "flaw" of sin was known and obviously considered acceptable by "god." Our ability to not pass the "test" was known and obviously considered acceptable by "god." I was never personally given the chance to take this "test" but "god" knows I would have based on his sample group of two, right? If he knew they'd "fail" and by extension that I'd fail then the "test" wasn't required. If "god" doesn't "know" that I'd fail then he's not omniscient and I should be allowed to, under the same original circumstances, take the test myself.

 

There's a few things that bother me about this whole story through (not counting it's overall absurdity). Why were Adam and Eve suddenly ashamed that they were naked? Were they aware of any clothed people to compare themselves to? Now, I've been naked around my wife and feel no shame and I'm nowhere as good looking as "perfect" people would be. I feel no shame being naked in front of my pets or in front of "god" (he is always watching after all). So what did they have to be ashamed of? Why did "god" not proclaim any of this to be a sin? He punished them all for not obeying but no mention of sinning. Why doesn't "god" mention sin until Cain and Abel? Why did all snakes have to be punished too. If, as xians assert, the snake was really Satan possessing a snake, or in the form of a snake, then what did snakes do to be cursed? Why did "god" not only "test" us by planting the tree of knowledge but then also ups the ante by allowing satan to tempt us as well? If it weren't for satan would we have "passed" and "god" just couldn't allow that? If the serpant hadn't managed to convince us what more would "god" have tried to trip us up? He seemed determined to "prove" we just aren't worthy. What was the test really for anyway? "God" and man lived happily in the garden didn't they? The bible seems to indicate this. Why did "god" suddenly become unhappy with this situation? Why would "god" expect two beings with absolutely no experience to understand that the serpent would decieve them? How could they know what deception even is if they had no knowledge of it? How could they be suspicious without knowledge of deception? Why would they even, for one moment, think that their perfect, loving creator would allow such a deception to occur in the first place? Would not trusting the serpent indicate that they doubted "god's" intentions? If all things were perfect and all things were of "god" for Adam and Eve then the serpent was of "god" for them. To doubt the serpent would have been to doubt "god." Adam and Eve could not have imagined they were being setup. The serpent did trick them but more importantly so did "god." The fact that they were being tested, without their knowledge or consent, and that they could not know they should have not trusted one of "god's" creations is proof of that.

 

Uhhh... I don't know. He's so fickle. Especially in OT, destroy this ppl, save this ppl. Heal this guy. Leper this gal. Polygamy in OT, not ok in NT. Unchanging? Maybe his creations asked for permission to tweak His holy book?

Perfect in His own eyes. Not in His wise creation's eyes.

So you admit that "god" is irrational.

 

The bible shows no requests from his creations to do any "tweaking." This is total speculation (and bad speculation at that) on your part. Let me try it though just to be sure. "Dear 'god' can I change your 'perfect' book to be more inline with my way of, imperfect sinful, thinking even though it undermines you? Amen." I'm getting something. "God" says I can. Praise be to "god." My changes are to scrap the whole damn thing and replace it with all episodes of "The Simpsons." All praise to Homer!

 

I also like that simply declaring one's self to be perfect is enough to be perfect. I guess I'm perfect too. If I change my mind then I'm somehow *more* perfect not less.

 

Refer to above; I've been told He craves praise and desires/wants us to remember what He did for us (good or bad).

If you say so. Your flawless logic is so, so god-like. I'm impressed.

Of course He is flawed; your critical analysis and conclusion is so much, much more 101% perfect. And you are right about the not doing any thing bit too. He has not done any thing for you, right?

Yep, end of my digestion and your disgustion.

I never declared my logic "flawless" but thanks for noticing and pointing it out. I must say I'm quite flattered. I never thought I'd be able to surpass "god" but with my own declaration of perfection above and your declaring my logic "flawless" I guess the student has surpassed the master as it were.

 

Oh, I get it, you're being sarcastic. Even though I was perfect in all ways I couldn't spot this. I'm more perfect now that I have. Thank you for helping me be an even more perfect form of perfection. I can't wait until I am even more perfect. I'll be even more perfecter. :Doh:

 

Yes it's harmful to those who do not believe in the xtian god; but i have yet to discover in what way.

It's harmful to us that don't believe in that we have people that do believe enforcing there "will" upon us in the name of "god" via some "divine" right that they think they have. These are people that for some reason seem to think that perfection is fluid (it's not). That "might makes right" (it doesn't...in fact with great power comes great responsibility). That an abusive "god" is really loving (go look up information on abuse and how it's victims have very xian attitudes and beliefs and how the abusers are pretty xian "god" like). We have examples throughout history of these ideals being put into practice and each and every time it turned out as a miserable brutal mess. Emulating your "god" has been the worst thing mankind has ever done and non-believers (and xians that aren't "real" xians) bear the brunt of you and your "god's" "love." I've been told that everyone one of those examples really show how we screwed up "god's" message and intentions and that they weren't true xians, reading the book and comparing the actions of "god" and these men easily point out more similarities than differences (your own words above confirm this as well). Do non-xians do a better job overall? Not really but as far as I know they never performed their attrocities in the name of "perfect love."

 

Well, at least you agree it's a good myth.

Do you read what you write or do you just type hoping something coherant will come out (via the "spirit" perhaps)? If you and I agree it's a myth then what the hell are you arguing with anyone about? I'm arguing to get people to stop believing a myth (you know, a story with supernatural overtones that is not real). You seem to be arguing to get people to buy into a myth. Secondly, I said it was barely a good myth (I've read much worse) since there are plenty of "good" myths out there (the first Matrix movie is a better myth as do the original Star Wars trilogy...more believable too).

 

So do have a good day.

I most certainly will once I get some of what you're taking. I sure we'd all have good days once we [smoke/snort/inject/eat] a little of your stash. I bet the bible would suddenly make a lot more sense then too.

 

mwc

 

P.S. To everyone else I apologize for the long posts.

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[various warnings about false teachers and prophets]

So how do you know that those giving the warnings weren't the "wolves" among the sheep? They wrote the book. They ran the show. Even in this day and age the one trying to trick you is the one proclaiming they are the truthful originators of something when they're the ones twisting it for their own purposes and wrenching control from the true originators. Sounds a little like xianity taking over the whole Jewish belief system and where they disagree xians proclaim truth and Jews are tricking you into believing the lie when the Jews invented the whole thing. Of course this sounds like xians and the pagans of the day (and xians and everyone throughout xian history).

 

mwc

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Grab that book, look for that line! Double the dose of punishment if some body should spout false doctrines.

 

It's in there some where:

 

Peter warns Christians of all ages: “But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways” (2 Peter 2:1,2).

 

There were false prophets in the Old Testament, there will be false teachers among us as well.

 

Jesus warned: “Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many” (Matthew 24:11). The fact that there are many false teachers among us and that many people listen to them is simply a fulfillment of the word of Christ.

 

He also said: “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves” (Matthew 7:15). False teachers are false not only in doctrine but also in their appearance. They pretend to be something they are not. On the inside they are vicious wolves who kill and scatter the sheep. But they wear a sheepskin to trick the sheep.

 

Paul told the elders at Ephesus: “For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves” (Acts 20:29,30).

 

John warned: “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1).

 

Beware of false prophets, preachers and priests. They are more concerned about worldly things than spiritual values. Jesus said to the religious leaders: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.” ... “Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness” (Matthew 23:25 and 28).

 

As someone said maybe yours is a sect who follows false doctrine? How do you know yours are not false and not his? You are following a edited version of the bible? Eastern Orthodox Christianity is much older than yours.

 

Christian claim that "To be saved one must belive in christ". Considering that christians have so many denomimation here is what you guys say about the reasons for denomination

 

http://www.carm.org/seek/denominations.htm

 

"The reason there are different denominations within Christianity is because the Bible allows for us to have differences of opinions. Within Christianity there are very few essential doctrines that make someone any Christian. These essential doctrines are,

 

Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1,14; 8:24; Col. 2:9; 1 John 4:1-4).

Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; 1 Cor. 15:14).

Salvation is by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:1-2; 5:1-4).

The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Gal. 1:8-9).

There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8)

God exists as a Trinity of persons:  Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (See Trinity)

Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary (nature of incarnation"

 

  As long as a church believes in these essential doctrines, then it is Christian. "

"Neither salvation nor damnation is dependent upon our differences.  Our salvation is based on our relationship with Christ."

 

Since he is a eastern orthodox christians he already believes in the "essentials". Note in doesn't say whether you cannot believe in other biblical doctrines whether it is the doctrine of speaking in tongue or doctrine of asking saints to pray from you. So Eastern Orthodox is already a different denomination and older than your denominnation. According to the protestant worldview eastern orthodox christians ought to be saved.

 

I am pretty sure he has scriptures to backup his doctrines too. Afterall he has the Extended Edition of the bible :wink:

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And amazingly, pug does not address my post.

 

It's cuz he's a troll. All he's trying to do is keep leading people on with his schoolboy arguments and snotty replies. He'll never address your replies seriously - he's trying to get you shadow-boxing.

 

Don't feed the troll!

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I'm tellin ya'; no matter what, Adam was a pussy bitch for falling for the old trick of "well, let's eat the apple anyway, God won't find out!" For someone who was created to be in charge of the family, Adam sure lacked the brains and the spine to do it.

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Pug seems to be of the idea that perfection refers to things that we call perfect, such as a perfect diamond, or a perfect game of bowling (a perfect 300). Of course, since those things have limits that cannot be exceeded, perfection of a sort can be reached, but you can still do better in other ways (A bigger perfect diamond, bowling 300 in less time, etc.). If we refer to creation and god that way, then technically, none of it is perfect, or if you will, gods perfection leaves something to be desired. Which of course means that he and his creation falls short of true perfection, that is to say he and it can't be exceeded in any dimension.

 

If that's the case, why defend God's plan?

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:lmao:   How apologist of you.  Of course, when all else fails, the other "christian" is not really a "christian".  Of course you do know that orthodoxy has been around alot longer than charismatic forms of worship?

So very true. The Orthodox Church was around until 16 century. And I'm not sure Lutherans really are charismatic either.

How come God waited so long to reveal the True, New and Improved Gospel™???

 

I always find it ironic when Christians start arguing among themselves.

To me that is a proof that Christianity is not from God.

 

Jesus said that if they (the Church, Christians) would love each other, it would be the sign to the world that they were of God. (I have to find the verse again, I had it up in a post some weeks ago).

 

In essence, they internal conflict and struggle the Church has, is to me the proof that it is man-made.

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