Guest foolfromms Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Hi All and especially to you Freeday! I'm a regular reader from the mail list, but post rarely. I have been talking with an old friend concerning religion and ask him to keep an open mind and come have meaningful discussions here concerning the God that he loves so much. I myself was once a brainwashed confused christian, but there was always that gut feeling that something just wasn't quite right, through Geology, Biology and good common sense I have been religion free for over a decade. Thank Goodness! Both Freeday and I are from Hattiesburg, Mississippi, deep in the buybull belt. I ask that the group please help this poor lost soul see the light and remember in doing so, that he was brainwashed by the best, the dreaded Southern Baptist. The sad thing is Freeday is a RN, works in a hospital, but like most people around here, has no true understanding of the basis of life science, the Theory of Evolution, in an discussion we were having the other day he stated: "Speaking of science as in relation to the medical field, is it not so hard to believe that there is a higher power that created us. look at how long we have been here. and the time we have had to evolve and learn about the human body. and yes we do know a lot. but when you look at what they don't understand. the stuff that is classified as syndromes, which are just a common set of symptoms that can't be explained medicaly, just in theory. then you look at the perplexity of just how cells reproduce with DNA and how a fetus is developed in the womb, is it not so hard to believe that something with an infinite wisdom created us. and if we did evolve from monkeys, why are there still monkeys, and why haven't we evolved into something else? do you ever have the feeling you are alone, that whatever you do is not enough to satisfy you? and if you say no, i know you are lying. God is real and he is actively seeking you!" and finally, we are still talking and debated about a man that lived 2000 years ago, if it was a hoax, i don't think we would be having this conversation right now. {END FREEDAY QUOTE}" Now Freeday means well, after all he is worried about my soul, whatever that is, he's just a little confused, I do commend him for joining the forum, who knows we all may learn something! Welcome to the Forum Freeday, this is your big chance to convert a shitload of us sinners, so say your prayers and give it your best, I'm all ears! Eariler Freeday Post 1 Earlier Freeday Post 2 Welcome Buddy! Jump in get your hands dirty! I hope you learn as much here as I have! William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Welcome foolfromms (and by extention, Freeday), Try not to push your friend Freeday too hard, if he's viewed our forums at all, he may feel a bit reluctant to participate in a place that challenges his viewpoints so hard and heavy. We can be a pretty in-your-face group, and a lot of what we have to say may be too-much-too-soon for your friend. Remember that the process of de-conversion is a highly individual choice, that unlike christianity, does not feel good immediately. The questioning phase is scary and unstable feeling, and many people have chosen to just shut their eyes and keep going through the motions that are safe and sure. It is once you are on the far side of that, that you truly realize who was once a slave, and who is now free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Welcome to the Forum Freeday, this is your big chance to convert a shitload of us sinners, so say your prayers and give it your best, I'm all ears! Welcome Buddy! Jump in get your hands dirty! I hope you learn as much here as I have! William Thanks for the welcome. I'm not here to convert anyone, just here to defend the truth. It is God's job to change lives, it is just mine to be sure that the truth is shared. Although, I did read something very funny about the belief of evoluntion, but I will get to that in due time. Your buddy, Freeday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I'm not here to convert anyone, just here to defend the truth. Why does truth need anyone to defend it? That which is true is its own defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I'm not here to convert anyone, just here to defend the truth. Why does truth need anyone to defend it? That which is true is its own defense. Yes, that is a most excellent point. Truth is self-evident. Bible "truth" is, well.... not. BTW, freeday welcome. Anticipate having have most all your notions of "truth" challenged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 We're all here looking for the truth, Freeday. Most of us have thoroughly examined your religion and found out that ain't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedPillAddict Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Welcome to the Forum Freeday, this is your big chance to convert a shitload of us sinners, so say your prayers and give it your best, I'm all ears! Welcome Buddy! Jump in get your hands dirty! I hope you learn as much here as I have! William Thanks for the welcome. I'm not here to convert anyone, just here to defend the truth. It is God's job to change lives, it is just mine to be sure that the truth is shared. Although, I did read something very funny about the belief of evoluntion, but I will get to that in due time. Your buddy, Freeday So...God has a "job" and has assigned you one, too? All these silly traits man gives to his invisible creator in the sky. Freeday, usually the people that think they have found "the truth" are probably further from it than someone who admits that they have no clue. We, as humans, try to understand the world around us, but some believe mythological stories and try to jump to quick answers instead of actually trying to find real answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Welcome, freeday and foolfromms. Thanks for the welcome. I'm not here to convert anyone, just here to defend the truth. It is God's job to change lives, it is just mine to be sure that the truth is shared. For the purpose of reviving a fun and enlightening discussion (and for my own egotistical gratification ), I invite you to take a stab at this thread, freeday: Why Should I Worship Jeezus Instead of Odin? It's long and involved, so at least enjoy reading if you don't care to post. It's sure entertaining, to say the least Just be sure you brush up on the rules of the Rules of the Colosseum first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqua Kitty Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Thanks for the welcome. I'm not here to convert anyone, just here to defend the truth. It is God's job to change lives, it is just mine to be sure that the truth is shared. Don't worry, you won't convert me. Been there, done that. Welcome to the forums! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Thanks for the welcome. I'm not here to convert anyone, just here to defend the truth. It is God's job to change lives, it is just mine to be sure that the truth is shared. Although, I did read something very funny about the belief of evoluntion, but I will get to that in due time. Your buddy, Freeday Freeday, I'm concerned regarding your severe misunderstanding of science in general. If you have any questions or wish to engage in a little one on one discussion about any subject in science or philosophy I would be happy to do so. I know that coming onto a forum like this can be difficult with all the overwhelming questions directed at you. Just a thought, enjoy the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Although, I did read something very funny about the belief of evoluntion, but I will get to that in due time. Your buddy, Freeday Actually since we're all interested in hearing the truth defended, lets jump straight to the "belief" of Evolution. I think it's a wonderful starting point to uncovering the amazingly scientific truths in the Bible. I'll start: Evolution is a fact, not a belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dianka Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 I'll add: we are primates NOT MONKEYS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Me next, I have no clue what "evoluntion" is! Sorry, couldn't help it. I guess the "belief in evoluntion" is funny after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Although, I did read something very funny about the belief of evoluntion, but I will get to that in due time. Your buddy, Freeday Actually since we're all interested in hearing the truth defended, lets jump straight to the "belief" of Evolution. I think it's a wonderful starting point to uncovering the amazingly scientific truths in the Bible. I'll start: Evolution is a fact, not a belief. how is evolution a fact, in my opinion it is a belief just like religion. how can you scientificly prove something that occurred billions of years ago? it is all just theories of evolution. thank you guys for the warm welcome. please don't misunderstand me, i am not here to bash you guys and tell you to turn or burn. i would like to provide you with a better understanding of christianity, and you in return can provide me with a better understanding of evolutionist/athiest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Me next, I have no clue what "evoluntion" is! He spelled it wrong. It should be evil luncheon. It's what happens when a bunch of infidels such as us get together to fellowship. WTF. This is the Lion's Den. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 I'll start: Evolution is a fact, not a belief. I'll start: Are you talking about the ToE, Antlerman or just the idea of evolution as it relates to biology in general? You should be specific since one is a fact, the other is a collection of facts providing an explanation in a coherent and logical manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 i would like to provide you with a better understanding of christianity, and you in return can provide me with a better understanding of evolutionist/athiest. Hi freeday, I am just curious, why you think anyone here would need a "better" understanding of Christianity? I was a Christian for the majority of my life - as many others here. In fact some of us are former pastors, ministers, preachers, etc., with a very in-depth theological knowledge of the Bible from cover to cover. If you're going to presume to "educate" anyone here, I hope your credentials are in order becuase you'll need them. Good luck! P.S. Atheism is simply a disbelief in god(s). You believe in the existence of Jehova/Jesus, I disbelieve in their existence, because there's no evidence they exist. Until Jesus decides to appear in my living room and grant me some facetime, I consider him about as real as Santa Claus, Zeus, and the invisible magical elves that live in my basement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 how is evolution a fact, in my opinion it is a belief just like religion. how can you scientificly prove something that occurred billions of years ago? it is all just theories of evolution. thank you guys for the warm welcome. please don't misunderstand me, i am not here to bash you guys and tell you to turn or burn. i would like to provide you with a better understanding of christianity, and you in return can provide me with a better understanding of evolutionist/athiest. Where to begin? Let's start with the better understanding of Christianity. How do you assume you have a better understanding of Christianity than me, or anyone else here? I earned a degree in theology some years back. What is your education in this area? Theory of Evolution. "Just a theory"? Do you understand the difference between theory in the common usage and when "theory" is used in science? A scientific theory is more a "model" based on a set of verified hypothesis. In other words, it’s not opinion. It's something entirely different. Evolution is a fact of nature. The Theory of Evolution has to do with how species evolved from each other. Evolution happens every day, just gravity does. A virus can evolve in a matter of hours. This is not something that always takes millions of years. You can no more deny this process than gravity. If you dispute that the fact of evolution resulted in the origin of species, that's a different matter. We can look at that if you'd like. I'll start with a question for you. Why do you have disprove science to believe in God? Is it possible to read the Bible more than one way? WTF. This is the Lion's Den. Yes indeed it is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open_Minded Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Thanks for the welcome. I'm not here to convert anyone, just here to defend the truth. Welcome Freeday... As God said .... Jer 1:17 - Gird up your loins; stand up and tell them everything that I command you. Do not break down before them, or I will break you before them. But.... before you do that ... you may want to read a few threads: One Verse at a Time: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=134419 Get your prayers answered now: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...indpost&p=85153 A Christian's inerrancy challenge, Can the Bible can be trusted? - http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...indpost&p=97193 If - after reading through these three threads you still feel like taking on these folks ... well... you really are a "confused Christian". Be warned the following are signs of "breaking down before them" Ignoring questions and challenges that you can't answer. Complaining that there are too many questions to answer Starting a new thread when the questions in this thread become too challenging Skipping out on the conversation before it's finished. I'm sure others can list more signs of breaking "down before them". Good luck..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 how is evolution a fact, in my opinion it is a belief just like religion. how can you scientificly prove something that occurred billions of years ago? it is all just theories of evolution. thank you guys for the warm welcome. please don't misunderstand me, i am not here to bash you guys and tell you to turn or burn. i would like to provide you with a better understanding of christianity, and you in return can provide me with a better understanding of evolutionist/athiest. Where to begin? Let's start with the better understanding of Christianity. How do you assume you have a better understanding of Christianity than me, or anyone else here? I earned a degree in theology some years back. What is your education in this area? Theory of Evolution. "Just a theory"? Do you understand the difference between theory in the common usage and when "theory" is used in science? A scientific theory is more a "model" based on a set of verified hypothesis. In other words, it’s not opinion. It's something entirely different. Evolution is a fact of nature. The Theory of Evolution has to do with how species evolved from each other. Evolution happens every day, just gravity does. A virus can evolve in a matter of hours. This is not something that always takes millions of years. You can no more deny this process than gravity. If you dispute that the fact of evolution resulted in the origin of species, that's a different matter. We can look at that if you'd like. I'll start with a question for you. Why do you have disprove science to believe in God? Is it possible to read the Bible more than one way? WTF. This is the Lion's Den. Yes indeed it is! i am not trying to disprove science, science is a good thing, i work with it every day and see the effects of it. i am not saying i have a better understanding than you. since you do have a degree. i realize that there are several people that have a better knowledge of the bible than i do. i have just posted up on a couple of messages that was totally twisting the scripture around, i would hope you could at least see that. believe it or not. help me out here, where is the post that science has proven evolution. from what i understand, evolution is the theory that everything came from one central cell. is this correct. this is my last post for the night. i am signing off. later guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 help me out here, where is the post that science has proven evolution. from what i understand, evolution is the theory that everything came from one central cell. is this correct. Alright, I'm going to change tone a little here after picking on you a little elsewhere. I would spend some time here on one series of articles I discovered on this issue of Evolution and the claims of Intelligent Design. There are a total of 13 articles I consider well presented. He is in fact a scientist. Start with this one here. At the bottom of the page are links to the other articles. http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/philosop/method.htm BTW, I was married to an RN for 7 years, so I honestly do not consider you qualified as a scientist. It is more a skilled humanitarian if anything. I understand the jealousies that are common in RN's of actual Medical Doctors. Sorry, I can't help but state what was so obvious to me. Hell, even she recognized it. To answer the question did life come from one central cell? Sure, but more when it comes to animal life forms, all animals came from one single animal. DNA research has confirmed this. Then I ask the question, how in the world does this square with the book of Genesis - if you are going to take Genesis as a factual accounting of events, as opposed to a mythological presentation of the origins of life? The Bible is a book written by men that is mytholgical and philosophical in nature. Not all is bad, yet not all is valid. You however, I am sure will claim it is all perfect and all accurate? Understand we are more than your average consumer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 help me out here, where is the post that science has proven evolution. from what i understand, evolution is the theory that everything came from one central cell. is this correct. this is my last post for the night. i am signing off. later guys. Evolutionary theory posits three things, freeday: 1. The common ancestry of all living things. 2. Inheritance of traits in a lineage. 3. The mechanisms that determine which traits remain in the gene pool and which traits do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedPillAddict Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 help me out here, where is the post that science has proven evolution. from what i understand, evolution is the theory that everything came from one central cell. is this correct. Why is it that EVERY SINGLE Christian I have ever met knows absolutely NOTHING about evolution...yet they are willing to deny it to the grave? It really baffles me. Its always "well, i heard blahblahblah.." or else some random, ridiculous, made-up-by-christian "fact" about evolution. Evolution is not an assumption. It is what happens to every living thing on this planet. The only reason anybody denies it is because they dont know anything about it or they are blinded by the baby Jesus....but then again, even the late Pope said that evolution was a part of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Freeday, Oh my. I am neither a scientist nor a scholar, but even I can see evolution. I have evolved from a child into an old man. I have evolved from a believer into a non-believer (in Christianity). To evolve means to change, to adapt, to survive. And as for the 'Second Law of Thermodynamics', yes living things can grow even while that which made them to be living things slowly winds down (changes into something else). Why are there still monkeys? That reminds me of a Kent Hovindish argument I heard a couple of years ago. He said that dogs begat dogs. There may be different breeds of dogs, he said, but they are still dogs. Well, there may be different kinds of primates, but they are still primates. There are also several types of mammals; some are in my backyard looking for food while I type. Some are in the depths of the oceans as I type, looking for food and still being mammals (for example, coming up for air). So why are there still monkeys? Maybe 'humans' and 'monkeys' both came from the same place, grew up together (to a point), but then split apart at some point. Some became us, some became monkeys, and some became those damn moles in my backyard. What made them 'split apart' then? I don't know. science has some interesting theories. You, as a Christian, have two creation theories in Genesis. They may all be right, or none of them may be right. To determine, without at least basic investigation, that any of them are right (i.e. 'true'); is to cheat yourself, IMHO. I mean, Allah will be madder at you than Jesus, whether They are both Prophets, or Teachers, or Fantasy. Either way, you need to look into Islam. I mean, you don't want to miss out on a technicality do you? Which leads me to ask you the question that all would-be Christians secretly want to be asked... "What is truth?" And before any of this degenerates into you defending your position against a barage of questions, opinions, and too many to count opinions, I'll say to you what I said to Amy-Marie... Choose a topic. If you don't want so many various thoughts/questions assailing you, we can take any discussion here to a place where you can go one on one, set your response time limits, pretty much get a debate set up any way you want it to be, and the mods will be nicer to you here and more fair than you will ever find on a 'Christian' website. I feel that I can honestly say that most any of the regulars here will be patient and take you at face value, if you'll do the same for them...and again, you can choose the question, topic and forum. If you don't, then most here will see you as a 'fake'. A wannabe-Christian who looks for his/her strength in the force of numbers, not in the battlefield where a Christian (who has nothing to lose) should excel. Just a heads up, Freeday... come high or stay at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 I want to focus in on what the "Theory of Evolution" is. I mentioned at the outset that Evolution is a fact. It is and has been well confirmed within multiple disiplines. Order from disorder is seen occuring daily in the world. The following is from the articles I recommended you read, which may be of some help to your understanding why the "ToE" is not "just a theory"' http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/philosop/theory.htm What's a theory? Philosophers of science, and physicists, define "theory" as a well-established and well-tested unifying principle. In physics, theories such as gravitational theory and electromagnetic theory take the form of a compact set of equations from which one can logically deduce nearly everything in a particular subfield of physics. An established theory is the pinnacle and goal of the scientific enterprise, held in high esteem by scientists. Biologists commonly refer to the theory of evolution. Here I may irritate some biologists by arguing that the theory of evolution is an entirely different sort of thing than theories in physics. Let's list some differences. •Physics theories are generally compact and mathematical. Evolution has no compact set of equations, in fact no equations at all. •One can deduce very specific and precise predictions from physics theories. Evolution's predictions are nowhere near so specific. •Physics theories' predictions may be tested experimentally to high mathematical precision. Evolution's predictions are more general, and don't lend themselves to precise testing. These differences don't in any way diminish the importance of evolution. Perhaps we should have a different name to characterize evolution. After all, what's in a name? By any other name the achievements of scientists who study evolution are in no way diminished, and the persuasiveness of their findings remains just as strong. I suggest that we call it the "process of evolution", to distinguish it from the "fact of evolution". The gradual progression of living things through a succession of modifications is a fact of natural history well confirmed by an abundance of different and independent kinds of evidence. That's the "fact of evolution". The processes that brought this about are simply components of the "process of evolution". There is no "force" of evolution or "principle" of evolution, and no single universal law of evolution. Evolution is the natural result of many other laws of physics, geometry, chemistry, etc. That's why one can't characterize evolution with a compact set of laws that you could write on the back of an envelope. For those who like analogies, consider other processes of nature: mountain building, erosion, formation of meandering streams and rivers, sand dunes, ocean currents, atmospheric phenomena. They are all complicated when examined in detail. No single set of equations can predict the exact shape a mountain will have when it is fully formed. There are too many variables that can't be easily measured. Powerful computer programs are required even to predict tomorrow's weather reasonably well, and don't even expect an accurate prediction for more than a week from now. All of these other processes have the feature of formation of orderly structures from lesser order, and eventually the breakdown of that order again. A mountain rises from flat land by physical processes, then erosion wears it down over a long period of time. A river may develop a wonderful pattern of sinuous looping meanders, then cut a new channel, abandoning an old loop to form a small lake. Sand dunes form, erode and reform. In the atmosphere, cyclones and anti-cyclones form and dissipate. The planets and the earth formed from a disk of gas and dust, and they now orbit the sun in orderly fashion and their moons orbit them with precise regularity. In all cases, when order increases, that process is driven by energy input. All of this is in strict accord with the laws of thermodynamics. A tornado is a dramatic example that illustrates natural processes at work to produce increased order. Calm air, gently rustling leaves, with no large temperature or pressure gradients, evolves into a whirling, violent and highly structured object, with characteristic behavior. Eventually it dissipates. Is this purposeful design? Is it in any sense an "accident" of nature? It it the result of "blind chance"? Posing these questions about such processes illustrates the inadequacy of these words to deal with them. Many of the philosophical issues that arise in the ID debate are embodied in this destructive maelstrom of whirling air. Perhaps that is a good metaphor for the entire ID controversy. Perhaps avoidance of the word "theory" in these discussions could eliminate a lot of wasted words about irrelevant issues. However, creationists will still object to anything that does not allow them to believe in the possibility of supernatural intervention in the natural order, but then it might be harder for them to conceal their real concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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