Please Welcome My Confused Christian Friend Freeday

[freeday]

 

BTW, I was married to an RN for 7 years, so I honestly do not consider you qualified as a scientist. It is more a skilled humanitarian if anything. I understand the jealousies that are common in RN's of actual Medical Doctors. Sorry, I can't help but state what was so obvious to me. Hell, even she recognized it.

 

please don't make assumptions about me, the only jealousies i have toward doctor's is the brand new Z06 that i walk by everyday leaving the hospital in the morning. i honnestly don't want to be a doctor. i would rather go back to school and become an engineer.

[freeday]

 

Alright, I'm going to change tone a little here after picking on you a little elsewhere. I would spend some time here on one series of articles I discovered on this issue of Evolution and the claims of Intelligent Design. There are a total of 13 articles I consider well presented. He is in fact a scientist. Start with this one here. At the bottom of the page are links to the other articles. http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/philosop/method.htm

 

 

i love this page allready.

 

"Questions like "What is the meaning of it all," or "What jump-started the universe?" I think that scientists should set these aside for the philosophers to chew on, and get on with the business of answering more accessible questions.)"

 

there is a difference in science and philosophy

 

"Scientists build their work upon measurable, testable and verifiable evidence and strive to keep personal and emotional feelings from influencing their judgment. Pseudoscientists start with "gut feelings" and emotional conviction, then select supporting evidence while inventing ways to deny any evidence that doesn't support their beliefs."

 

i have read 3 chapters now and all i keep finding are blanket statements. i can't seem to find any answers. you shouldn't have to read 3 chapters building up something, statements about the scientific theory.

 

"In most "denial" movements, the effort is spearheaded by just one or a handful of people who can write and debate with some effectiveness. Creationism's spokesmen (deniers of all stripes are nearly always male), never included any with relevant scientific credentials. None had training and a record of research in the fields they were talking about. Few had academic degrees from accredited institutions, but more typically held degrees in unrelated fields from unaccredited schools or Bible colleges. "

 

there is obviously not enough proof, so if you don't buy into it. they will just call you stupid. and say you are not educated properly to comprehend it.

 

"The bottom line: The proofs of god are pathetic attempts to justify an emotional commitment to a fantasy that is logically and scientifically impossible to prove. Once this fact is appreciated, all of these proofs of god are seen to be totally empty of content."

 

i read 4 chapters of someones opinion and psycobabble. he offered no proof for what he was saying, no explination. other than a full chapter of explaining the fundamentals and theories of science.

 

and this is what you base your beliefs on. and you think that i am confused. sure he has a phd. in physics and you think that makes him the ultimate authority on the subject. i can name people with phd's in microbiology that will defend christianity and more than 2 dozen MD's that will defend it also.

 

if everything came from a single cell, how did that cell get here? simple laws of physics states mater cannot be created, nor destroyed. unless it was done by a higher power.

 

and finally if you are one of those people who believe the world Is and will always Be. science suggests that the world had a beginnning. and that it will eventually have an end.

[Young Mother Atheist]

and this is what you base your beliefs on. and you think that i am confused. sure he has a phd. in physics and you think that makes him the ultimate authority on the subject. i can name people with phd's in microbiology that will defend christianity and more than 2 dozen MD's that will defend it also.

 

if everything came from a single cell, how did that cell get here? simple laws of physics states mater cannot be created, nor destroyed. unless it was done by a higher power.

 

and finally if you are one of those people who believe the world Is and will always Be. science suggests that the world had a beginnning. and that it will eventually have an end.

 

 

I don't think any of us base our beliefs on a single article.

 

If everything came from a single cell, how did that cell get here? If you can ask that, then ask, if God made the cell, how did God get here? Then who created God's creator? It will never end. I actually commented something similar to that on another thread in response to your posted article on "Does God Exist?"

 

Science suggests the universe has a beginning, many in fact. There is a rubber band theory that the Earth is continually expanding outward from a point and then back in on itself, and over and over again. Who knows if this ever started or will ever end? Beginning and ending are really human concepts that are sort of ambiguous. Even when a person dies, their matter and atoms do not "end" but continue on feeding back into the earth (or a coffin). And those atoms were there before the person was "alive".

 

I, as an Atheist, don't claim to know how the universe started. I don't think anyone can honestly make that claim because we weren't there. We can theorize about it though. And that is the great thing about science. It doesn't have to have ONE answer. It can continue on searching for the truth instead of stopping itself at one idea (as in religion).

[Lizard]

 

 

if everything came from a single cell, how did that cell get here? simple laws of physics states mater cannot be created, nor destroyed. unless it was done by a higher power.

 

and finally if you are one of those people who believe the world Is and will always Be. science suggests that the world had a beginnning. and that it will eventually have an end.

Freeday, you are confusing Evolution with Abiogenesis.

 

Evolution does not address how first matter came to be.

 

As to the world ending, one day our sun will go out..but first, it will expand greatly, taking Mercury, Venus, and most likely Earth and Mars out in an incredible fireball. Of course, we won't be around for that...its quite far in the future.

 

And yes, there are many thoughts out there on the origins and endings. Pull your head out of the bible for a bit and see what IS being said. Objectively.

[Ouroboros]

if everything came from a single cell, how did that cell get here? simple laws of physics states mater cannot be created, nor destroyed. unless it was done by a higher power.

This shows your misconception of matter vs biology/chemistry/physics.

 

A cell isn't new matter. It's the same old matter, but organized by physical laws (chemistry, nuclear bounds, etc) into higher constructs.

 

A house isn't new matter. It only takes energy and time to build it from existing matter.

 

This "first cell" you're talking about only required energy and time. Energy from the atmosphere, sun, heat from the Earths core, winds etc. And time, well, it's just time.

 

Question for you, is a crystal new matter, or did God create or still creates crystals? Crystals are self organizing matter based on physical laws.

 

(freeday = spoofer?)

[Antlerman]

there is a difference in science and philosophy

Absolutely. There is a difference between science and religion also. Unfortunately, many who are religious don't see that difference, hence why you stated "the belief of evolution."

 

i have read 3 chapters now and all i keep finding are blanket statements. i can't seem to find any answers. you shouldn't have to read 3 chapters building up something, statements about the scientific theory.

Yes, it is much easy to make it simple, "In the beginning, god did it." Much easier than science.

 

there is obviously not enough proof, so if you don't buy into it. they will just call you stupid. and say you are not educated properly to comprehend it.

You're joking, right? "Obviously not enough proof"? This entire statement of yours is nothing but an emotional rant with no basis in fact.

 

i read 4 chapters of someones opinion and psycobabble. he offered no proof for what he was saying, no explination. other than a full chapter of explaining the fundamentals and theories of science.

Do I have to help you understand the intent of the article? It wasn't about offering proof of the ToE, it's to talk about the issues of ID thinking versus real science; it's comparing how the two systems differ and what is involved in doing science.

 

Your calling this "psycobabble" again is emotional ranting and basesless. Deal with the substance. BTW, my ex the RN that was here favorite word to use to try to puff up her ego in leveling that accusation to others who she felt were smarter than her. Sorry, that's what I'm hearing here too.

 

and this is what you base your beliefs on. and you think that i am confused. sure he has a phd. in physics and you think that makes him the ultimate authority on the subject.

And herein lays the entire problem of religion and science. You said it right there. Let's read it carefully and see what it says: You seem to think I base my beliefs on this? You think I view him as the ultimate authority? You see what you are doing is taking how you approach knowledge, from a single source, and applying to everyone else!!!! This is what I see time and again, and why people with religious bias will accuse the ToE as being "Darwinism". Like the whole theory is based on his writings! They view knowledge as coming down, rather that being accumulated.

 

No, I do not base my beliefs on this person, or that person, or any person. First of all, these are not "beliefs" like religion. What you should ask is, "Do I accept what he is saying as being credible". The answer to that is a qualified yes. For many reasons, I accept that the scientific method is the best tool available to us to determine the credibility of claims. Unlike the Bible and theology which is accepted by faith, science backs up its claims by being testable. This is not a belief for me, but it is an acceptance of its credibility based on the system and the majority of scientists from the world over and across multiple fields of the sciences.

 

What are your criteria to determine valid "truth"? Your "common sense"? Your spirit? A holy book? A preacher?

 

i can name people with phd's in microbiology that will defend christianity and more than 2 dozen MD's that will defend it also.

I can also find some there too who belief in ET abductions and Crop Circles. What's your point? There are many credible scientists who also have religious beliefs? So what? I have no problem with that. Do they deny Evolution? If so, well..... that's on the fringe and like I said, they do so without passing peer review, and consequently fails to be considered science.

 

if everything came from a single cell, how did that cell get here? simple laws of physics states mater cannot be created, nor destroyed. unless it was done by a higher power.

Well, the laws of physics do not say that matter cannot be created without a higher power. Nowhere does it say that. My joke about education in Mississippi may not have been too far fetched?

 

Addressing what came before the beginning is not what science looks at. That's religion. Once we get after that, then the rules of science kick in and NOTHING happens supernaturally. "Supernatural" is a mythological construct for the human imagination, not an explanation of things in the natural world.

 

and finally if you are one of those people who believe the world Is and will always Be. science suggests that the world had a beginnning. and that it will eventually have an end.

I am not one who believes the earth has always existed. That is as much a religious belief not supported by science as the Book of Genesis story is, if read as a literal truth of history, and not a metaphor. I accept that our Universe had a beginning. I do not need God to explain how it works.

[Ouroboros]

if everything came from a single cell, how did that cell get here? simple laws of physics states mater cannot be created, nor destroyed. unless it was done by a higher power.

Oh. And of course I have to ask you this question too, where did the higher power get the uncreatable and undestructible matter from? And what matter is the higher power made out of, since it must be made out of uncreatable and undestructible matter too, unless it was done by a even higher power? ...

 

I'm sorry to say this Freeday, but your spelling and grammar is worse than mine, and I have less education than you (or what you claim you have). English isn't even my native language. Every argument you make sounds like you ranting and talking down to scientists, but your posts expose you as much less knowledgable than most on this site. I'm sorry, but you must be a spoof or a troll.

 

'Fess up, who'r'u?

[freeday]

if everything came from a single cell, how did that cell get here? simple laws of physics states mater cannot be created, nor destroyed. unless it was done by a higher power.

Oh. And of course I have to ask you this question too, where did the higher power get the uncreatable and undestructible matter from? And what matter is the higher power made out of, since it must be made out of uncreatable and undestructible matter too, unless it was done by a even higher power? ...

 

I'm sorry to say this Freeday, but your spelling and grammar is worse than mine, and I have less education than you (or what you claim you have). English isn't even my native language. Every argument you make sounds like you ranting and talking down to scientists, but your posts expose you as much less knowledgable than most on this site. I'm sorry, but you must be a spoof or a troll.

 

'Fess up, who'r'u?

 

a spoof or a troll? i am not the greatest typist. and most of the time i do not check it once i am done. i don't have to prove myself to you. i never claimed that i am more edumacated than anyone on here. i was posing some questions to you guys. and i think Young Mother Atheist answered it very well.

 

i do enjoy the ignorant mississippi stuff though, i bought a book on evolution today. i will refrain from posting about evil luncheon anymore untill i have read it and have learned something.

[Asimov]

i read 4 chapters of someones opinion and psycobabble. he offered no proof for what he was saying, no explination. other than a full chapter of explaining the fundamentals and theories of science.

 

Psychobabble? All I've seen from you are uninformed opinion and just plain babble. Can YOU offer anything before criticizing?

[freeday]

i read 4 chapters of someones opinion and psycobabble. he offered no proof for what he was saying, no explination. other than a full chapter of explaining the fundamentals and theories of science.

 

Psychobabble? All I've seen from you are uninformed opinion and just plain babble. Can YOU offer anything before criticizing?

 

i asked for explinations of evolution, i was dirrected to an article that i found uninformative. i think maybe i posted the question in the wrong forum.

 

i still can't comprehend how thousands of species evolved from one single cell. so i went out and purchased a book on evolution.

[Mythra]

i still can't comprehend how thousands of species evolved from one single cell. so i went out and purchased a book on evolution.

 

And I can't comprehend an RN who doesn't know jack shit about evolution.

[Antlerman]

i asked for explinations of evolution, i was dirrected to an article that i found uninformative. i think maybe i posted the question in the wrong forum.

 

i still can't comprehend how thousands of species evolved from one single cell. so i went out and purchased a book on evolution.

Oh, I apologize. I didn't realize you were unaware of the ToE altogether. My reference was to talk about why what the Scientific Method was, and why is is incorrect and an error to refer to the Theory of Evolution as "just a theory", as you stated.

 

Here's a series as primer on Evolution that should be right up your ally having some exposure to medical education. It's from the Howard Hughes Medical Instutue: http://www.hhmi.org/biointeractive/evolution/lectures.html

 

Also another good resource is here: http://www.becominghuman.org/

 

I will forward more as I find pertainent resources. In the meatime, I must admit I a bit surprised you are not really familiar with Evolution to the point you need to learn it, having studied biology in College. I'm sorry you haven't yet learned this. I hope these sources will be more helpful to you. Enjoy.

[Ouroboros]

i still can't comprehend how thousands of species evolved from one single cell. so i went out and purchased a book on evolution.

Good idea. As long as it's a scientific book and not a Christian apologetics critical book, because it won't have (on purpose) the full and correct information about the theory.

 

The same way as you wouldn't go to us to get the Bible explained, would you? You would go to your priest, pastor, teacher or get a book by a Christian. The same goes here, it's important to get a book about evolution by a person that doesn't try to hide facts or evidence.

[Lycorth]

i still can't comprehend how thousands of species evolved from one single cell. so i went out and purchased a book on evolution.

 

And I can't comprehend an RN who doesn't know jack shit about evolution.

 

You're telling me.

 

The Xians who come here are getting weirder each time...

[Asimov]

i asked for explinations of evolution, i was dirrected to an article that i found uninformative. i think maybe i posted the question in the wrong forum.

 

i still can't comprehend how thousands of species evolved from one single cell. so i went out and purchased a book on evolution.

 

Evolutionary Theory doesn't posit that thousands of species evolved from one single cell.

 

It posits that all life shares a common ancestor.

 

Your problem is you think that all life came from one single organism when everything to do with evolution deals in populations and not individuals.

 

If you don't even understand the fundamentals of evolution, how can you criticize it?

 

Read this: http://talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html

[freeday]

i still can't comprehend how thousands of species evolved from one single cell. so i went out and purchased a book on evolution.

 

And I can't comprehend an RN who doesn't know jack shit about evolution.

 

why do we keep bringing up my work in this, they teach A/P, not evolution in nursing school.

[willybilly30]

So freeday you'd believe Adam came from dirt, Eve came from a rib, all of humanity came from cain sleeping with his sister (incest leads to sterility by the way so our species would've died out) jesus came from a virgin when you need sperm to make a baby and jesus wouldn't of had the stuff to make him male no male hormones, a snake can talk need I go further?

[willybilly30]

My posts always shuts them up weird

[Gnosis of Disbelief]

My posts always shuts them up weird

 

 

Yeah, they kinda do that to me, too.

[freeday]

So freeday you'd believe Adam came from dirt, Eve came from a rib, all of humanity came from cain sleeping with his sister (incest leads to sterility by the way so our species would've died out) jesus came from a virgin when you need sperm to make a baby and jesus wouldn't of had the stuff to make him male no male hormones, a snake can talk need I go further?

 

funny enough we all come from dirt and return to it in the end. and yes i believe the above, that is not so eloquently written.

[nick5]

we all come from dirt

No.

[willybilly30]

So freeday you'd believe Adam came from dirt, Eve came from a rib, all of humanity came from cain sleeping with his sister (incest leads to sterility by the way so our species would've died out) jesus came from a virgin when you need sperm to make a baby and jesus wouldn't of had the stuff to make him male no male hormones, a snake can talk need I go further?

 

funny enough we all come from dirt and return to it in the end. and yes i believe the above, that is not so eloquently written.

Humans did not come from dirt and a woman cannot be made from a rib, jesus could not of come from a virgin. All this stuff is impossible and no cases or scientific research says it is.

[nick5]

freeday, every single story element and symbol from the OT and the NT is copied from older pagan religions. They are found in dozens of other beliefs much older than christianity

Those elements include:

 

-the virgin birth

-being visited by wise men

-the miracles

-starting the ministry at age 30

-ending the ministry at age 33

-being executed/crucified

-ascending to heaven

-resurection

 

And many more. Everything can be traced back to its pagan origins. EVERY SINGLE LITTLE THING. None of those are original to christianity. In fact, even in the time of the ancient pagans, it was all just a metaphor for the zodiac. It goes for the OT too.

[Ouroboros]

Here's Adam and Eve, and the snake... a seal from the Babylonian Era: (not Christian, not Jewish)

 

Abraham (Abram) left Ur. Ur was a city in the old Babylon. Where did he get the story about Noah and Adam&Eve and the Creation story? All those stories have their roots in Babylon.

[nick5]

The flood story is based on the yearly floods that happened every year in ancient egypt. It was destructive, but also brought new life (without it, nothing woul ever grow because of the dryness and it also brought minerals). Wash away the old, and bring new life. Sounds familiar? They had a festival for it and it was called "argha noa".

This happened while the moon was lit from underneath, causing it to look kinda like a boat.