Jump to content

Presbyterians Think Of Changing 'father, Son, Holy Spirit'


Recommended Posts

Presbyterians Think Of Changing 'Father, Son, Holy Spirit'

 

POSTED: 5:09 pm EDT June 19, 2006

UPDATED: 7:11 pm EDT June 19, 2006

 

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. -- The divine Trinity -- "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" -- could also be known as "Mother, Child and Womb" or "Rock, Redeemer, Friend" at some Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) services under an action Monday by the church's national assembly.

 

Delegates to the meeting voted to "receive" a policy paper on gender-inclusive language for the Trinity, a step short of approving it. That means church officials can propose experimental liturgies with alternative phrasings for the Trinity, but congregations won't be required to use them.

 

"This does not alter the church's theological position, but provides an educational resource to enhance the spiritual life of our membership," legislative committee chair Nancy Olthoff, an Iowa laywoman, said during Monday's debate on the Trinity.

 

The assembly narrowly defeated a conservative bid to refer the paper back for further study.

 

A panel that worked on the issue since 2000 said the classical language for the Trinity should still be used, but added that Presbyterians also should seek "fresh ways to speak of the mystery of the triune God" to "expand the church's vocabulary of praise and wonder."

 

One reason is that language limited to the Father and Son "has been used to support the idea that God is male and that men are superior to women," the panel said.

 

Conservatives responded that the church should stick close to the way God is named in the Bible and noted that Jesus' most famous prayer was addressed to "Our Father."

 

Besides "Mother, Child and Womb" and "Rock, Redeemer, Friend," proposed Trinity options drawn from biblical material include:

 

# "Lover, Beloved, Love"

# "Creator, Savior, Sanctifier"

# "King of Glory, Prince of Peace, Spirit of Love."

 

Early in Monday's business session, the Presbyterian assembly sang a revised version of a familiar doxology, "Praise God from whom all blessings flow" that avoided male nouns and pronouns for God.

 

Youth delegate Dorothy Hill, a student at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in Massachusetts, was uncomfortable with changing the Trinity wording. She said the paper "suggests viewpoints that seem to be in tension with what our church has always held to be true about our Trinitarian God."

 

Hill reminded delegates that the Ten Commandments say "the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name."

 

The Rev. Deborah Funke of Montana warned that the paper would be "theologically confusing and divisive" at a time when the denomination of 2.3 million members faces other troublesome issues.

 

On Tuesday, the assembly will vote on a proposal to give local congregations and regional "presbyteries" some leeway on ordaining clergy and lay officers living in gay relationships.

 

Ten conservative Presbyterian groups have warned jointly that approval of what they call "local option" would "promote schism by permitting the disregard of clear standards of Scripture."

 

http://www.wftv.com/family/9393768/detail.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm glad to see some news where Churches and Christians become less fundamentalistic and judgmental. Makes you a little more hopeful...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hahaha! You can call him/her/it whatever you want. Doesn't mean whatever it is will ever answer. :HaHa:

 

Zackly what I thought :HaHa:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's blasphemy, pure and simple. If you start saying that Jesus was a woman, who knows where it will end?

 

I don't CARE if it hurts your feelings. God is a man. Jesus is a man. Deal with it.

 

In fact, what the hell are you doing here anyway, woman? Go home and be subject to your husband!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's blasphemy, pure and simple. If you start saying that Jesus was a woman, who knows where it will end?

Joseph giving birth to the baby girl Jesus? :twitch:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Joseph giving birth to the baby girl Jesus? :twitch:

 

Yes - he'll be giving birth through the rectum. Just poop him out. Poor Joey won't walk for a month, but hey, it's for the glorah of Gawd!

 

Sure would make for a virgin birth, no? :HaHa:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It just shows how desparate they are. To have to change such important language, given the fact their cult is based on a patriarchal religion, only tells us that they know they're on the way out and are pulling out all the stops to save the ship from sinking :loser:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Somehow it all sounds kind of fluff bunny to me.

 

I mean I suppose if there's a religion that's really a bunch of misogynist bullshit, it isn't going to do any real good if they try to pretend they really think that feminine things are OK by god and women are genuine human beings too. It just seems fake to me.

 

Besides, everyone knows it's really "Larry, Moe, and Curly" anyway.

 

:cunn:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It just shows how desparate they are. To have to change such important language, given the fact their cult is based on a patriarchal religion, only tells us that they know they're on the way out and are pulling out all the stops to save the ship from sinking :loser:

 

*assumes Rabbi Sidhe mode*

 

Actually, that's not quite right. Judaism isn't patriarchal, it's just that in English "He" is the neutral pronoun.

 

In Hebrew, names for G-d are both masculine and feminine, and G-d is defined as being completely other even in terms of gender. And, in some branches, completely unknowable, too. And there's a lot less of "It's G-d's will, don't question it!" in Judaism. It's more of "G-ddammit, WHY?"

 

So mucking about with "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" is just people deciding to not be literalistic about their translation.

 

An Episcopal priest I'm friends with (we're both Macheads, and gadget geeks, so we get along), prefers "Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier" based on analysis of Hebrew, which leads him to believe that gender-specificity should be avoided.

 

*leaves Rabbi Sidhe mode*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, that's not quite right. Judaism isn't patriarchal, it's just that in English "He" is the neutral pronoun.

 

Fascinating tidbit about the Hebraic language - yet it showcases two things.

 

Firstly, if the Xian god was all-knowing, he was an even bigger idiot for wanting his "word" written down, when he should've foreseen even this problem with it.

 

Secondly, every Xian denomination is in even greater error than we thought, since they all do indeed believe that the Judaic cult was patriarchal. So much for the Holy Spurt™ guiding them to "properly divide the word of gawd" :Wendywhatever:

 

And now that I think about it, does this not also highlight an inconsistency within Judaism™? After all, didn't it grow out of the henotheistic glorification of the ancient Hebraic god Yahweh, who was part of a bigger pantheon of gods? This Yahweh - wasn't this always understood to be a male god? If so, then why the asexualization of Yahweh when he became the Yahooweh™ of the Torah™?

 

Can't these Abrahamic cults make any sense?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have some suggestions for a new name/word for the Trinity:

 

The Three Stooges

 

or

 

Huey, Dewey and Louie (Donald Duck's Nephews)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have some suggestions for a new name/word for the Trinity:

 

The Three Stooges

 

I second that! :HaHa:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is ridiculous. It's foolish to spin around 2,000 years later and say that a dogma is actually something else when it has already been thoroughly defined. If these people don't like the way their religion has consistently regarded the trinity for thousands of years they should part ways. Changing it now to meet their sensibilities is dishonest, contrary to their very dogma and revisionist. I guess they want to cling onto a religion they don't even find appealing; they just put a petty label over something they don't like regardless of the fact that it is going back on their own religion so that they can convince themselves that their faith isn't what it is, has been and will always be.

 

What's next? Tree, acorn, grass?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, that's not quite right. Judaism isn't patriarchal, it's just that in English "He" is the neutral pronoun.

 

And now that I think about it, does this not also highlight an inconsistency within Judaism? After all, didn't it grow out of the henotheistic glorification of the ancient Hebraic god Yahweh, who was part of a bigger pantheon of gods? This Yahweh - wasn't this always understood to be a male god? If so, then why the asexualization of Yahweh when he became the Yahooweh of the Torah?

 

Can't these Abrahamic cults make any sense?

 

Well, what happened was just mythologization when it comes to Judaism. They're still henotheistic, but their original pantheon got merged into one all-powerful YHVH, who always had a bunch of names anyway.

 

They're still henotheistic in that they feel that other people have their own gods, and that's fine and dandy. But they worship YHVH. That's their horse in the race.

 

Judaism is lacking the "our way or the highway" mentality of Christianity. It's a lot more universalistic than Christianity or Islam.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's blasphemy, pure and simple. If you start saying that Jesus was a woman, who knows where it will end?

Joseph giving birth to the baby girl Jesus? :twitch:

 

THAT would certainly be a Biblical twist....NOBODY that has a god sanctified/assisted pregnancy/birth has a daughter in the Bible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the hole conception part was supposed to be read like this:

 

Mary had a little too much of the Holy Fire Water, eh, sorry the Spirits, no I meant the Wine.

 

The Father came and ... well, you know...

 

And voila, the son was conceived.

 

But that's the R rated version, and the PG version goes better during the holidays.

 

(Who would have thunk that the Holy Spirit was a date drug?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.