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Intelligent Design


willybilly30
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I brought this up here but I thought It'd be interesting to discuss on a topic by itself.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=9907&hl=

I just thought of something.

Ok, something always comes from something is that right?

Cats from other cats, dogs from other dogs and humans from other humans.

To keep from saying something over and over I'll say 1 + 1=2 so for two to exist there had to be 1 and 1. to build a cat I would need the stuff that makes up a cat. Here is where I am going with this.

Whoever, whatever created the universe had to come from something before that. whether it be a god, white hole, or what ever.

So, the ongly one god theory intelligent design wants to use don't exist by that theory cause something has to come from something.

Ok, to go further the bible says there was nothing then god made the universe basicly.

Ok, what'd this god do to make the universe were was his supplies? were did god come from?

What's so funny about the intelligent design theory is people use the bible to explain it when by the theorys own definition something had to come from something makes the bible untrue.

if god made the universe he had to of had something to make it with and god had to of came from another god. this theory defeats itself by its own belief.

Ok, I am assuming intelligent desihn is a christian theory so if there is other theorys let me know.

 

Personally I would like to think something intelligent created the universe but I don't think it's bible god. No being by itself with out anything could create the universe if you think it could I want to know how.

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I brought this up here but I thought It'd be interesting to discuss on a topic by itself.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=9907&hl=

I just thought of something.

Ok, something always comes from something is that right?

Cats from other cats, dogs from other dogs and humans from other humans.

To keep from saying something over and over I'll say 1 + 1=2 so for two to exist there had to be 1 and 1. to build a cat I would need the stuff that makes up a cat. Here is where I am going with this.

Whoever, whatever created the universe had to come from something before that. whether it be a god, white hole, or what ever.

So, the ongly one god theory intelligent design wants to use don't exist by that theory cause something has to come from something.

Ok, to go further the bible says there was nothing then god made the universe basicly.

Ok, what'd this god do to make the universe were was his supplies? were did god come from?

What's so funny about the intelligent design theory is people use the bible to explain it when by the theorys own definition something had to come from something makes the bible untrue.

if god made the universe he had to of had something to make it with and god had to of came from another god. this theory defeats itself by its own belief.

Ok, I am assuming intelligent desihn is a christian theory so if there is other theorys let me know.

 

Personally I would like to think something intelligent created the universe but I don't think it's bible god. No being by itself with out anything could create the universe if you think it could I want to know how.

 

If I was to reluctantly argue the case for a creator one approach would be:

 

God is not matter. He has no beginning and no end. You cannot view God as being a super man type figure even though the bible depicts him so. As you hint at, all things we observe have causal dependencies on other things but God is not dependent on anything, being entirely self sufficient. If there is a chain of causes that could be charted backwards in time you come to the first cause - God. There never was a time God did not exist, God is before time, before the universe came to be. Before the universe came into being there was nothingness. Nothingness is not empty space - it means precisely what is says - nothingness. There was no matter, no energy store, no time, no distance, no forces, no laws of physics - nothing at all. God is the first principle that is before everything created, before the universe. The universe was made from nothing not from something, like everything else in the created universe, because God is not bound by matter or the laws he gave to the universe - God is the ultimate source of matter and everything we can perceive. You are hinting at one of the five methods proposed by Thomas Aquinas (based on Aristotle) for proving the existence of God in his summa theologica.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_cause

 

A human cannot comprehend such a being as God with our finite created intelligence. But its possible to put forward arguments based on contigency that strongly suggest the existence of a creator. As you will gather I do believe in a higher power(s) or whatever you want to call it but its not through any of the five ways of Aquinas or proofs by anyone else. I only post the above to show you are going down one of the well trodden paths.

 

Does this help?

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The ID argument is never going to be logical because in the end they have to address who made the creator or where he came from since they say everything here is intelligently designed.

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The ID argument is never going to be logical because in the end they have to address who made the creator or where he came from since they say everything here is intelligently designed.

 

 

a finite can not comprehend or logically explain an infinite power that knows no time, place, beginning or end. all we can know is what he has chosen to reveal to us.

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a finite can not comprehend or logically explain an infinite power that knows no time, place, beginning or end. all we can know is what he has chosen to reveal to us.

 

What a cop-out. A typical Xian response: "we can't understand Gawd 'cuz Gawd's infinite and beyond our feeble and wormish brains." Riiight. I think we can understand the divine just nicely, and our understanding will grow and become honed over time.

 

That's just a handy way of excusing incomprehensible Xian spiritual garbage :Wendywhatever:

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a finite can not comprehend or logically explain an infinite power that knows no time, place, beginning or end. all we can know is what he has chosen to reveal to us.

So why can't God have a Creator, while the Universe can?

 

Is it only because you can see the Universe (or parts of it), but you can't see God?

 

Would that mean, if you could see God, then you could envision him to have a Creator too?

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I brought this up here but I thought It'd be interesting to discuss on a topic by itself.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=9907&hl=

I just thought of something.

Ok, something always comes from something is that right?

Cats from other cats, dogs from other dogs and humans from other humans.

To keep from saying something over and over I'll say 1 + 1=2 so for two to exist there had to be 1 and 1. to build a cat I would need the stuff that makes up a cat. Here is where I am going with this.

Whoever, whatever created the universe had to come from something before that. whether it be a god, white hole, or what ever.

So, the ongly one god theory intelligent design wants to use don't exist by that theory cause something has to come from something.

Ok, to go further the bible says there was nothing then god made the universe basicly.

Ok, what'd this god do to make the universe were was his supplies? were did god come from?

What's so funny about the intelligent design theory is people use the bible to explain it when by the theorys own definition something had to come from something makes the bible untrue.

if god made the universe he had to of had something to make it with and god had to of came from another god. this theory defeats itself by its own belief.

Ok, I am assuming intelligent desihn is a christian theory so if there is other theorys let me know.

 

Personally I would like to think something intelligent created the universe but I don't think it's bible god. No being by itself with out anything could create the universe if you think it could I want to know how.

 

If I was to reluctantly argue the case for a creator one approach would be:

 

God is not matter. He has no beginning and no end. You cannot view God as being a super man type figure even though the bible depicts him so. As you hint at, all things we observe have causal dependencies on other things but God is not dependent on anything, being entirely self sufficient. If there is a chain of causes that could be charted backwards in time you come to the first cause - God. There never was a time God did not exist, God is before time, before the universe came to be. Before the universe came into being there was nothingness. Nothingness is not empty space - it means precisely what is says - nothingness. There was no matter, no energy store, no time, no distance, no forces, no laws of physics - nothing at all. God is the first principle that is before everything created, before the universe. The universe was made from nothing not from something, like everything else in the created universe, because God is not bound by matter or the laws he gave to the universe - God is the ultimate source of matter and everything we can perceive. You are hinting at one of the five methods proposed by Thomas Aquinas (based on Aristotle) for proving the existence of God in his summa theologica.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_cause

 

A human cannot comprehend such a being as God with our finite created intelligence. But its possible to put forward arguments based on contigency that strongly suggest the existence of a creator. As you will gather I do believe in a higher power(s) or whatever you want to call it but its not through any of the five ways of Aquinas or proofs by anyone else. I only post the above to show you are going down one of the well trodden paths.

 

Does this help?

What is the five ways of Aquinus? I think if their is a god it is beyond human comprehension.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, something always comes from something is that right?

 

No.

Right the universe might have always been here earth might of always been here and had life on it.

who says everything had a beginning or came from something else. Is that what your saying? cause I think it's possible.

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The ID argument is never going to be logical because in the end they have to address who made the creator or where he came from since they say everything here is intelligently designed.

 

 

a finite can not comprehend or logically explain an infinite power that knows no time, place, beginning or end. all we can know is what he has chosen to reveal to us.

 

I don't see how god would require us to believe in something that we could not even understand. If he were to base us going to hell for eternally on believing in him, then he would have to at least make it so we could understand what we were believing in, I mean it's only fair, right?

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The ID argument is never going to be logical because in the end they have to address who made the creator or where he came from since they say everything here is intelligently designed.

No one knows I know I don't.

 

The ID argument is never going to be logical because in the end they have to address who made the creator or where he came from since they say everything here is intelligently designed.

 

 

a finite can not comprehend or logically explain an infinite power that knows no time, place, beginning or end. all we can know is what he has chosen to reveal to us.

Revealed? If god revealed anything we wouldn't be discussing this.

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I don't see how god would require us to believe in something that we could not even understand. If he were to base us going to hell for eternally on believing in him, then he would have to at least make it so we could understand what we were believing in, I mean it's only fair, right?

 

Indeed - it's just another logical fallacy of Xianity. The Lard™ wants us to know him, love him, and serve him out of total debasement and fear, because otherwise our souls will burn in Hell™ forever. But how can we know and love and serve that dope if he is also beyond our comprehension, and even discourages us from questioning him or his nature or intentions?

 

People sometimes don't think before they make shit up, yanno?

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a finite can not comprehend or logically explain an infinite power that knows no time, place, beginning or end. all we can know is what he has chosen to reveal to us.

So why can't God have a Creator, while the Universe can?

 

Is it only because you can see the Universe (or parts of it), but you can't see God?

 

Would that mean, if you could see God, then you could envision him to have a Creator too?

Why couldn't god have parents and family? Maybe gods are some very advanced species that created the universe or atleast life on earth.

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a finite can not comprehend or logically explain an infinite power that knows no time, place, beginning or end. all we can know is what he has chosen to reveal to us.

 

What a cop-out. A typical Xian response: "we can't understand Gawd 'cuz Gawd's infinite and beyond our feeble and wormish brains." Riiight. I think we can understand the divine just nicely, and our understanding will grow and become honed over time.

 

That's just a handy way of excusing incomprehensible Xian spiritual garbage :Wendywhatever:

 

 

Yeah, it's just another rationalization that christians have for shutting off

their brains and shooting up with another round of Jeebus juice. Ugh!

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But how can we know and love and serve that dope if he is also beyond our comprehension, and even discourages us from questioning him or his nature or intentions?

 

Plus he made humans like that (unable to understand) on purpose. What a dick head.

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I don't see how god would require us to believe in something that we could not even understand. If he were to base us going to hell for eternally on believing in him, then he would have to at least make it so we could understand what we were believing in, I mean it's only fair, right?

That's one problem I have with so called revealed religions if god told us anything their wouldn't be all this confusion

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a finite can not comprehend or logically explain an infinite power that knows no time, place, beginning or end. all we can know is what he has chosen to reveal to us.

Revealed? If god revealed anything we wouldn't be discussing this.

Willy, I must say, you have come a long way! :HaHa: Very good point you're making.

 

If God had revealed anything so it was obvious, then it would be obvious and we wouldn't have doubts about it.

 

No one here, or anywhere in the world, are questioning if the Sun exists and that it's warm to be in the sunshine. That's an obvious observation of nature.

 

But God exists or created the universe isn't obvious. It's only a speculation, which some people take to the extreme into a blind faith.

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a finite can not comprehend or logically explain an infinite power that knows no time, place, beginning or end. all we can know is what he has chosen to reveal to us.

 

Orrrrr... it could just be that it doesn't exist. I don't even believe in "infinty" in the sense you seem to expose. You are taking an abstract and superimposing it on reality. You might as well say "Hope" is a god.

 

:shrug:

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a finite can not comprehend or logically explain an infinite power that knows no time, place, beginning or end. all we can know is what he has chosen to reveal to us.

Revealed? If god revealed anything we wouldn't be discussing this.

Willy, I must say, you have come a long way! :HaHa: Very good point you're making.

 

If God had revealed anything so it was obvious, then it would be obvious and we wouldn't have doubts about it.

 

No one here, or anywhere in the world, are questioning if the Sun exists and that it's warm to be in the sunshine. That's an obvious observation of nature.

 

But God exists or created the universe isn't obvious. It's only a speculation, which some people take to the extreme into a blind faith.

 

this is an excellent question you pose. "if God revealed anything we wouldn't be discussing this"

 

lets start off with what we do know about God that the bible reveals. God is light, love, spirit, not flesh and blood, not a man, is the word, is unseen, patient, just, alpha and omega. (if you want ref. i will give them). now lets look at the general laws of physics of our demension length, width, height and time. i am mostly going to focus on time in this. Unlike us he is not bound by our demensions. Time as defined by webster is "a nonspatial continuum that is measured in terms of events which succeed one another from past through present to future." when trying to define time we have the same conceptual problem with it that we have with God. like him we cannot see it, smell it, taste it, feel it or hear it. in our world it is impossible for two different masses to occupy the same location at the same time. they can occupy the same location but at different times. time is also inter-related with distance. it takes me 1 hour to drive to jackson, or 60 miles. to further complicate things the great mind of einstein proposed that time is not fixed, but varies depending upon the speed at which an object or person is traveling. for example if you travel at 99.9% at the speed of light in space for 50 yrs, it would be eqivalent to 20,000 earth years. (this has been proven on a much smaller scale). now that we have this down, on to the point.

 

the bible describes God as a being who relates to time the way we relate to a wall. God can see the beginning , the end and all points or events in between. (Isaiah 46:9). if we could stop time, there would be no limit to what you could acomplish. you could be in california, drive to florida and in that time frame be 2 different places at once.

 

i am almost done, If God created this universe, then he created all 4 deminsions including time. God cannot die, death is dependent on time. God had no beginning because beginning by definition implies time. since he existed before time began, he has always been. therefore he can speak of events that took place before time began, and of the events that will take place after time. i call this eternity, which is a higher order or dimension where time does not exist at all. i personally believe this to be the heaven that is reffered to.

 

please no emotional bashing on this one, pardon the punn, but i spent a lot of time researching and preparing this. i choose not to take the easy way out and just say he did reveal himself 2000 yrs ago.

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lets start off with what we do know about God that the bible reveals.

 

Romans 1:20 talks about the revelation of the nature of the Godhead being stamped on creation. This I assume must be the Trinity. The nature of time is Triune, the three elements past, present and future cannot exist one without the other, and obviously space has the same nature, and matter has the triple point.

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The nature of time is Triune, the three elements past, present and future cannot exist one without the other, and obviously space has the same nature, and matter has the triple point.

 

You make assumptions about the nature of time which many do not share...

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lets start off with what we do know about God that the bible reveals. God is light, love, spirit, not flesh and blood, not a man, is the word, is unseen, patient, just, alpha and omega.

God is light but he's also unseen? :twitch: He's the alpha and the omega (which implies a beginning and end which implies time), but according to you he's always been? Which is it? :twitch: Isn't there anything about this guy that isn't a contradiction? :Doh:

 

We can measure the passage of time so we can test it. There's no way to test for "god", especially if according to you he exists outside of space and time in some magical place called heaven. Anyway since space and time are both components of physical reality I guess that means your god does not exist within the realm of physical reality, which leads me to wonder how we as humans bound by physical reality interact with beings who exist outside of physical reality? :scratch:

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Right the universe might have always been here earth might of always been here and had life on it.

who says everything had a beginning or came from something else. Is that what your saying? cause I think it's possible.

 

No, I'm saying that things may come from nothing.

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Right the universe might have always been here earth might of always been here and had life on it.

who says everything had a beginning or came from something else. Is that what your saying? cause I think it's possible.

 

No, I'm saying that things may come from nothing.

That's true so the intelligent design theory is wrong in saying something has to come from something.

Why I keep wanting to stick an H in the word design I'll never know.

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Right the universe might have always been here earth might of always been here and had life on it.

who says everything had a beginning or came from something else. Is that what your saying? cause I think it's possible.

 

No, I'm saying that things may come from nothing.

That's true so the intelligent design theory is wrong in saying something has to come from something.

Why I keep wanting to stick an H in the word design I'll never know.

 

No, because I don't think Intelligent Design is saying that something has to come from something.

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