Me And The Controversy.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Well, Jay, I only revealed a couple of details about the PM because it didn't seem like you were going to say anything and I thought I was watching someone tell bald faced lies. I considered posting the PM, but didn't. Even after I said what I said I was hoping that you would back me up. When you didn't, I began to wonder if what you told me was the truth. So, as far as trust goes, I can understand how we both might not explicitly trust each other right now. Does that sound fair?

 

Perhaps, if the future, you might consider talking to me about something like that instead of waiting to express your feelings with an exclusionary vote (I'm assuming you voted against me).

 

What can I say about trolling? Every serious issue here has been discussed to the nth degree, so sure, sometimes I'll pick a little fight here and there. But it's not like I'm the 16 yr old with a beard in the eighth grade going around kicking everyone's ass. Everyone here has a keyboard for a weapon.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

I'm sincerely wanting to hear my critics, here. This is the perfect opportunity for anyone with a beef to say it "to my face", if you will. I promise I will treat you fairly. So howsabout you do the same for me, whoever you are?

[pandora]

I voted against you in the first vote, changed my mind, and then stuck up for you a bit in this last one.

 

I do think you were kind of overly rude to a few members on here, but I also think that you will respect that there is a time and place for everything. I've also gotten to know you better now, and you're a very complex guy... I like it.

 

But if you were as mean to me in real life as you have been to some on here, I would probably cry. JK

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

I voted against you in the first vote, changed my mind, and then stuck up for you a bit in this last one.

 

I do think you were kind of overly rude to a few members on here, but I also think that you will respect that there is a time and place for everything. I've also gotten to know you better now, and you're a very complex guy... I like it.

 

But if you were as mean to me in real life as you have been to some on here, I would probably cry. JK

 

 

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Which mean stuff are we talking about?

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Perhaps you might consider asking me if I want my PMs posted.

 

I didn't post your PM. I said something that I didn't directly attribute to a PM from you or anyone else.

 

I forgave and reconciled.

 

That's awesome. I'm all for forgiveness and reconciliation. But someone wasn't telling the truth, and that will always bug the shit out of me. I apologise for saying things that you told me in a PM, but I can't guarantee I won't again say something from a PM if it just so happens to contradict someone that I think is lying. In that instance, it's my assumption that the person who PM'd me stands behind the story as they told it to me and would prefer that the truth be told, when the other option is having people be lied to for no good reason.

 

You seem to be characterizing me as if I was waiting to pounce on you, like I somehow possessed a sixth sense and knew you were going to do that at the exact time you were up for a vote.

 

Not at all. I would just prefer that if someone doesn't like me or something I have done, they stand up and say so instead of holding on to it and expressing it in a place like a vote forum to exclude me from something.

 

I think you're crediting me with more magical gifts than I possess, because you can ask anyone and they'll confirm to you that I was fence-sitting the whole time up until that point, maybe even speaking a bit on your behalf.

 

I was surprised to hear you intimate that you voted against me. Seriously. I see why you did it, in a way, but, I can honestly tell you, if the situation were reversed, I wouldn't have voted against you. It's meaningless essentially. But, it's the truth.

 

I don't think you really expected someone to

 

I still expect, hope, anticipate - whatever, I want to talk to the people who feel I have wronged them to the point that they feel okay casting a vote excluding me from something. Nothing would satisfy me more, regardless of the outcome in the other forum, than to be able to hear the criticisms of me from the mouths attached to the brains that formulated them and respond to them honestly. Like I said earlier in the thread, a criticism that I can't hear is merely a cowardly insult.

[Rachelness]

MOST POINTLESS THREAD EVER!

[greygirl]

Shiva, I've never had any personal interaction with you that I recall, but I have seen your posts, and I feel like I know where a few people are coming from. I also love this board, but there are some things that bother me quite a bit about it. One of those things is this idea quite a few people seem to have (and we've seen the sentiment expressed in this very thread) that hurting other people is perfectly okay if you consider it personal entertainment. That you can say something you know is hurtful to another person, and the other person is somehow at fault for being hurt by it. That deliberate cruelty is perfectly acceptable if you dress it up as " telling the truth" or "being real".

 

You can be blunt and honest without being cruel, and sometimes hurt feelings are unavoidable, but you seem to take pleasure in upsetting and hurting people. I've had the impression a few times that you don't really see the people on the other side of your monitor as real people. We're all just entertainment for you, and seeing people here hurt is like watching a pratfall on a sitcom, only these falls aren't staged for your entertainment. You're just being entertained by someone genuinely falling and getting hurt.

 

The fact is, there are real people on the internet. There seems to be this fairly pervasive idea that being hurtful is allowed if "it's just who you are", but there's no equivalent Get Out Of Jail Free card for the people who are hurt and take things personally because it's just how they are. It rather seems that you're not to blame for hurting people, but they are to blame for getting hurt. That doesn't fly with me, and I think it doesn't fly with a lot of other people. If hurting people and then blaming it on alcohol is "just the way you are", then maybe you should take a good, hard look at the way you are decide whether that's the kind of person you really want to be.

[pandora]

I voted against you in the first vote, changed my mind, and then stuck up for you a bit in this last one.

 

I do think you were kind of overly rude to a few members on here, but I also think that you will respect that there is a time and place for everything. I've also gotten to know you better now, and you're a very complex guy... I like it.

 

But if you were as mean to me in real life as you have been to some on here, I would probably cry. JK

 

 

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Which mean stuff are we talking about?

 

 

Critisizing Willy and trolling on some people's very personal and emotional posts. They were dealing with being newly ex-C, a very personal and emotional and fragile thing, and you just made fun of them. And I vaguely remember you being rude to me about something, but I don't remember what exactly it was and I was probably in PMS.

 

I post some very personal things in the CH (as do many of the others), and I was mainly concerned that you might say something to me or or someone else that was insensitve. But after watching you work for a while, I think that you can control yourself as long as you know the rules. Am I right?

 

I really think you're a nifty, complex guy. I would like to hear your perspective on a lot of the personal life things that come up in the CH. There's a difference between saying "You're a moron and it's all your fault, you jackass." and "Maybe you should try it this way next time, but that was the natural consequence of whatever." I hope that makes sense.

 

It's all in the presentation, and I think you're capable of figuring that out.

 

Greygirl described it nicely.

 

There's a time and place for trolling... and some people just can't handle being trolled because they mostly don't recognize it as such. Respect that-- because there are real people behind your monitor. That doesn't mean you can't troll at all, just be careful who you choose to troll.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

I also love this board, but there are some things that bother me quite a bit about it. One of those things is this idea quite a few people seem to have (and we've seen the sentiment expressed in this very thread) that hurting other people is perfectly okay if you consider it personal entertainment. That you can say something you know is hurtful to another person, and the other person is somehow at fault for being hurt by it. That deliberate cruelty is perfectly acceptable if you dress it up as " telling the truth" or "being real".

 

You can be blunt and honest without being cruel, and sometimes hurt feelings are unavoidable, but you seem to take pleasure in upsetting and hurting people. I've had the impression a few times that you don't really see the people on the other side of your monitor as real people. We're all just entertainment for you, and seeing people here hurt is like watching a pratfall on a sitcom, only these falls aren't staged for your entertainment. You're just being entertained by someone genuinely falling and getting hurt.

 

The fact is, there are real people on the internet. There seems to be this fairly pervasive idea that being hurtful is allowed if "it's just who you are", but there's no equivalent Get Out Of Jail Free card for the people who are hurt and take things personally because it's just how they are. It rather seems that you're not to blame for hurting people, but they are to blame for getting hurt. That doesn't fly with me, and I think it doesn't fly with a lot of other people. If hurting people and then blaming it on alcohol is "just the way you are", then maybe you should take a good, hard look at the way you are decide whether that's the kind of person you really want to be.

 

Other than my insensitive words to Willy, which have been dealt with several times by now and quite thoroughly, I would really love an few examples of me saying "hurtful" things to someone, as in undeserved personal attacks. What? My criticism of garrison for being a teacher and using 1000 commas in a posts? I didn't tell him he was a stupid ass or anything, I just told him that that many commas are unnecessary.

 

Seriously, show me where I was cruel to someone. Just because someone gets upset doesn't necessarily mean that they have good reason to be upset. Like me. I'm not upset that a few of you have chosen to use your power to exclude me from your CH for, as I see it so far, no good reason. I'm curious as to why this is happening, though. It's all well and good for you all to think I am insensitive and mean, but if the only example you can think of is something that happened several months agao for which I've apologised and for which the offended person has now forgiven me and moved on, then what's the point?

 

I know you guys think I'm not CH material because I am too mean and insensitive. Here's your opportunity to help someone change by seeing the error of their ways. Show me where I was mean and it was inappropriate. Please.

 

 

Shiva, I've never had any personal interaction with you that I recall, but I have seen your posts, and I feel like I know where a few people are coming from.

 

May I please hear from someone whom I have actually directly offended to the point that they feel justified excluding me from the CH?

 

Please.

 

 

You're just being entertained by someone genuinely falling and getting hurt.

 

I don't know what the hell you're talking about and I'd rather not hear anymore of this speculation unless someone can provide some friggin evidence that I have ever been this callous. This is ridiculous.

 

If hurting people and then blaming it on alcohol is "just the way you are", then maybe you should take a good, hard look at the way you are decide whether that's the kind of person you really want to be.

 

May I ask that only those of you with real criticisms of my behavior post here. If you would like to make general accusations of heartlessness and give me advice on how I might become a better person, ostensibly more like you are, I can start a new thred. For now let's try and keep this productive, shall we?

[willybilly30]

Can we please stop with the willy's posts stuff I'v heard about this over and over their was nothing emotional about it sure I was pissed off but so what. I wish I knew everyone was going to take this the wrong way and judge shiva forever then I wouldn't of said another word. I am over it I been over it I never gave it a second thought till it was mentioned over and over in the CH. Why am I so special? All over this board we have people pissing people off and fighting let's face it lets get over it.

Why is Shiva singled out? If we are going to punish ever one who have said harsh things and offended someone the 90% of the members of this forum need punished. I'm sorry but this is getting old.

Why are we discriminating Shiva for voicing opinions that piss people off and no one else?

we have had conversations about Shiva being in the CH over and over and it's the same thing oh Shivas been mean to me no way and yes I will admit the first time I did the same thing. but this is wrong everyone has been mean to everyone here if that's what we vote people on then everyone should leave the ch. Get over it let it go already damn And please stop using my name and my posts to be against shiva I swear if I see the word 'willy's posts' again i'm gonna scream and rip my hair out.

It's over damn next time I get pissed off at someone I think I will just keep it too my self.

Surely, somebodys got another reason besides me to be against shiva damn.

I'm sorry this will piss people off but after hearing this over and over and over and over I just can't take it any more damn!

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

 

Critisizing Willy

 

Heard it. Next.

 

and trolling on some people's very personal and emotional posts.

 

Where?

 

They were dealing with being newly ex-C, a very personal and emotional and fragile thing, and you just made fun of them.

 

Who?

 

And I vaguely remember you being rude to me about something, but I don't remember what exactly it was and I was probably in PMS.

 

You said that your "intuitive" sense of physics told you that there was something amiss about the twin tower's collape. I said I was glad that engineers use "real" physics. If that hurt your feelings you need a thicker skin.

 

I post some very personal things in the CH (as do many of the others), and I was mainly concerned that you might say something to me or or someone else that was insensitve. But after watching you work for a while, I think that you can control yourself as long as you know the rules. Am I right?

 

I post very personal stuff on the regular board where all the trolls can see it all the time. Am I afraid that someone will say something I don't like? No. Does it happen? All the friggin time. Do I cry about it? Not once? If I decided I wasn't particularly fond of the things someone said to me would I use it as an excuse to exclude them from a support group they may desperately need. Hell no I wouldn't.

 

Of course I can control myself. No one has presented any evidence so far that I am even 10% worthy of all this ridiculous fuss. I don't just go around hurting people and the next person who says so had better have a non-willy example.

 

I really think you're a nifty, complex guy. I would like to hear your perspective on a lot of the personal life things that come up in the CH. There's a difference between saying "You're a moron and it's all your fault, you jackass." and "Maybe you should try it this way next time, but that was the natural consequence of whatever." I hope that makes sense.

 

There have only been a few threads where I resorted to blatant name calling and it was justified every time, IMO. If you'd like to show me how I'm wrong I'd be glad to listen.

 

It's all in the presentation, and I think you're capable of figuring that out.

 

Of course I am, no one has shown me any evidence that a reasonable person should think the contrary.

 

Greygirl described it nicely.

 

No she didn't. She basically told me I like to push people down and enjoy their pain without a shred of evidence that this is true. Based on her post, I could just as easily say that my impression of her, though I haven't really dealt with her personally, is that she is a presumtuous busybody who doesn't feel good about herself unless she's giving people life advice from a position of presumed superiority. Would that be fair of me to say? Why not?

 

There's a time and place for trolling... and some people just can't handle being trolled because they mostly don't recognize it as such. Respect that-- because there are real people behind your monitor. That doesn't mean you can't troll at all, just be careful who you choose to troll.

 

Of course there are real people behind the monitors. Before I hear anymore sentiments about how I don't understand this fact, could someone please show that there is any reason to believe I have no compassion at all? I'm begging you people!

[willybilly30]

I don't get why everyone is using willy examples damn you know it's funny but everyone on here seems more bothered by it then I was. Shit this is redicoulus.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

I don't get why everyone is using willy examples damn you know it's funny but everyone on here seems more bothered by it then I was. Shit this is redicoulus.

 

 

They are using you as an example, willy, because that is when they decided they didn't like me. They are "deciders", willy. They believe the same thing on Wednesday that they believed on Monday no matter what happened Tuesday. That's called strength of character. Another sign of a strong character is refusing to present their evidence in court, and using the tabloids to influence people so they don't have to answer for their words. It takes balls to criticise someone so freely in a private forum they'll never read. Suckers stand up to the people they think have wronged them. It's far more noble to get your dirty work done with a secret vote, and oh so delicious.

[willybilly30]

I wish they would stop it's getting annoying. It seems like some people lack the ability to get over shit and that's sad. I'm just tired of hearing it. Why am I the ongly reason they don't like you? it don't make sense. I'll admit I used to do the complaining in the CH thing but I don't anymore and now that I see it'll become a damn dead horse everyone will keep beating on I sure wont again next time the person that pisses me off I'm gonna let them know like I'm doing now. Surely somebody has got another reason. Oh, by the way If I am so influental to you people that you are swayed by my words why isn't shiva in the CH I said let him in and give him a chance now do it damn it.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

I said let him in and give him a chance now do it damn it.

 

 

That's just crazy enough to work!

[willybilly30]

I wish it would work this is just getting old.

[pandora]

Shiva, you asked for it buddy.

 

I personally don't care, and like I said, I voted you in the second time around.

 

It doesn't matter enough to me to go search thousands of old posts to find out exactly what you said that pissed me off. I can say it was NOT the physics comment... I thought that was actually funny. This was when you first joined, and I was probably in PMS. I have long forgotten about it. Like I said, you asked! You seemed to have missed that I have no ill will towards you, that I want you in the CH, and that I was half-kidding. You still got all pissy in your reply. I guess this is the problem with the internet and the point that many of us are trying to make.

 

I don't have a problem with you. Honest to gawd.

 

I hope my post kills this damn thread. I was reluctunt to post in it anyway, but you begged for it and I thought I'd have some guts and tell you why I voted against you once, in the beginning, a long frigging time ago.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Shiva, you asked for it buddy.

 

I asked for alot more than "you're mean and it scares me but I can't tell you why or how. You just are".

 

I personally don't care, and like I said, I voted you in the second time around.

 

Great. You didn't have to bring up willy, and you sure didn't have to bring up random unspecified posts where I was intolerably cruel to bolster your endorsement. It seems counter-productive.

 

It doesn't matter enough to me to go search thousands of old posts to find out exactly what you said that pissed me off.

 

It's just enough for you to know that I did at one point piss you off, whether or not it was justified and I was clearly in the wrong.

 

I can say it was NOT the physics comment... I thought that was actually funny.

 

That's a relief.

 

This was when you first joined, and I was probably in PMS. I have long forgotten about it. Like I said, you asked!

 

I asked for more than "you pissed me off way back then but don't ask me how and I was probably pre-menstrual"

 

You seemed to have missed that I have no ill will towards you, that I want you in the CH, and that I was half-kidding. You still got all pissy in your reply. I guess this is the problem with the internet and the point that many of us are trying to make.

 

I get the fact that you are saying you don't have a problem with me now. What I don't understand is why, before this post, you couldn't just say that without also saying "but you were really mean to willy and very hurtful to many new XCs and greygirl said it best it just seems like you don't see people as real people.etc." If I sound pissy I am responding to those words which still have yet to be validated by anything factual. Put yourself in my position for a minute. There is also a real human face behind my monitor.

 

I don't have a problem with you. Honest to gawd.

 

Good.

 

I hope my post kills this damn thread. I was reluctunt to post in it anyway, but you begged for it and I thought I'd have some guts and tell you why I voted against you once, in the beginning, a long frigging time ago.

 

Don't I have a right to face and answer my detractors? CH or no CH, I'll be damned if I'm going to let people make accusations behind my back and not try to answer them and stick up for myself.

[pandora]

Shiva, if you want to know, go back to the first month or so that you were here and see if we had any exchanges.

 

I'm not wasting my time on it. If you want specific examples, go review your own posts... it's that simple. Okay? Okay. Yes, you deserve to know what pissed people off, but since this is a forum where you can view what you've said, I'd say it's your responsibility to go look it up. I am admittedly too lazy and too apathetic about this whole thing to do it for you.

 

The fact that you're doing this publicly in a thread devoted to it in just insane. Most people would go back and review their own posts... but you demand that people step up. I understand why, but let it go already. The rest of us have.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

The fact that you're doing this publicly in a thread devoted to it in just insane. Most people would go back and review their own posts... but you demand that people step up.

 

You're goddamned right I do. Has it occured to you that I may have read through my posts and I still don't understand what all the fuss is about. Is it even a little bit possible that people's opinions of me have been greatly exaggerated because of the votes and CH threads, and they don't actually represent me.

 

It's not too goddamned much to ask people to stand behind their criticism. I do it. If you think my reaction to this mess is insane, maybe it's you who doesn't see real people behind the monitor, or whatever meaningless rhetoric suits you best.

 

I understand why,

 

Really? Then what's your problem?

 

but let it go already. The rest of us have. smile.gif

 

What? If the rest of you had let it go then this thread wouldn't even exist. Now who's being callous?

[pandora]

If I actually thought that you'd take it to heart, I would go back and look. But I think you'll just say that whoever deserved whatever you said and leave it at that. It's possible I'm imagining this, but I remember thinking that you are even meaner than Asimov when you first came on. I will apologize if I am wrong, but your compassionate side didn't exactly shine through on your first few weeks here, and first impressions are everything.

 

Since I don't care if you're in the CH or not, why are you directing your energies at me? Why not at the people who still have issues with you and would still vote against you?

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

If I actually thought that you'd take it to heart, I would go back and look. But I think you'll just say that whoever deserved whatever you said and leave it at that.

 

Right, because that's how I treated will when I realised that I had overstepped. You people need look no farther than your favorite example of my evil to reassure yourselves of the fact that I can also admit when I'm wrong.

 

It's possible I'm imagining this, but I remember thinking that you are even meaner than Asimov when you first came on. I will apologize if I am wrong, but your compassionate side didn't exactly shine through on your first few weeks here, and first impressions are everything.

 

So what?

 

Since I don't care if you're in the CH or not, why are you directing your energies at me?

 

Because you are the one here reiterating the generic criticisms of me and calling me crazy for trying to stand up for myself.

 

Why not at the people who still have issues with you and would still vote against you?

 

When they come around I'll talk to them. I don't even know who they are.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Hey Pandora, just for you I read through all of my posts again paying specila attention to my earlier posts and I can honestly say that I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. You said that if you thought I'd actually considered what was said honestly, you'd go look for it. I'm promising you that I will do exactly that if you will take the time to stand by your words and find examples of what made you think I was particularly mean in the beginning and what exactly I said to you that was wrong?

 

I know, I know, you don't care one way or the other, but you cared enough to open your mouth and exhale a rather pungent and unsubstantiated personal opinion about me. If you were just running your pie-eater. I understand. You can take it back and I'll understand.

[pandora]

I never said you were evil. I never said you were craz y. It seems you have a problem exaggerating things, yourself.

 

Anyway, I have newborn kittens to take care of and a final exam tomorrow, so it will be a few days before I can get back to you. Because I respect you, I am going to do it. I don't know why. It's like doing what the school bully asks you to do. I really hate myself for doing it because I think you're going to walk all over me and keep being rude (as you have been in this thread, even after I complemented you and basically said it was all water under the bridge)... but whatever.

 

I'll get back to this thread possibly by the end of the weekend. You aren't exactly on my priority list.

 

Remember that I'm female, and females often have very different ideas of what is considered over-the-line in things such as this. This is why I don't even think you'll understand what I'm saying. But I'll do it. I'm a masochist, I guess.

[Checkmate]

I wish it would work this is just getting old.

But damn it, it IS fascinating!

 

This has GOT to be the most pointless and narcississtic thread I've ever read, and YET I CAN'T leave it alone. I'm actually learning something about relationships and behaviors from reading these interchanges.

 

So I suppose that means it ISN'T "pointless and narcissistic", but that I am a fucking voyeur! Whoo-hoo!

 

Okay. Back to my popcorn. This is better than most movies I've rented lately.

 

 

[Oh, and before I forget....."Willy's posts". ]