Me And The Controversy.

[Dianka]

[Fweethawt]

Heh, heh, heh!

 

I told you guys.

 

 

There's a little bit more to that guy than just the crust on his underwear.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Shiva, that's an extraordinary post. All of it. Just amazing to me.

 

First, I don't hold myself up as any paragon of rationality. I can get just as emotional over things I consider outrages as the next person. Those who've seen my posts over a long period of time, here, know that all matters Jewish are deeply meaningful to me because, you're right, Jewish issues strike me on a very personal level. Like Lou Dobbs has become the Big Bore of immigration issues, I set eyes to rolling whenever the Holocaust topic arises.

 

I totally understand. For many years after the event with my friend Jamal, and the subsequent conversations we had about race and his perspective, not only as a "black" man, but as someone of mixed race who never really felt totally accepted by either race, I responded with the utmost of my passion to anything, and I mean anything, that I perceived as "racist".

 

When I was a teenager in highschool in Franklin , Tn, in the 80s, there was a short lived popular resurgence of "white power" issues in the media, either beginning with or culminating in the episode of Geraldo in which a young neo-nazi named David Metzger lobbed a chair into the pseudo-journalist's nose, breaking it, and ensureing that we'd all have to listen to his lilting, sybillant self righteous posturing for nearly a decade to come. I remember being called a "nigger lover" by many an ignorant, unsuspecting soon-to-be-bleeding idiot. During that time I began to see many of the telltale signs of the skinhead culture popping up at my highschool. There seemed to be a clique of white boys dressed in bomber jackets adorned with rebel flags, and jackbooted in Dr. Martin's , oxblood in color. The neo-nazi uniform of the time.

 

I took it upon myself to pick fights with these guys everyday, everywhere that I saw them. If I was alone and there was more than one of them, I often lost the fight, but never without leaving my mark. If they were alone, I took out all of the anger I had stored up over my less-than-ideal treatment at the hands of insensitive children on their shaven skulls. I'm not proud of it. We were all kids and if I were to be held responsible for every careless word I'd spoken or every whim I had that turned into a dark path I'd be burning in hell with the rest of you. But, at that time and in my youth, I needed to see the world in black and white. My upbringing had prepared me for nothing more than that.

 

To this day, if I think that what someone is saying is truly an expression of unbridled racism, I will unload the most eloquent invective I can muster on their ignorant melons. But, I do not believe that everyone who echoes sentiments or reiterates questions that were once, and perhaps originally uttered by the mouth of an unabashed antisemite, is deserving of the lable of "hate speech". What makes speech hate speech? Is it merely the words? Or is it hateful intent?

 

Cursorily searching my critical faculties, I can immediately conceive of many reasons why someone would question an historical even and in particular the holocaust without having any solid hateful or racial motivations. In the case of the holocaust, I can easily see how anyone of German decent would be reticent to accept the party line, and may doubt it, not because of racial prejudice, but for something as simple and natural as ethnic or national pride. Surely we all know that ethnic and national pride is something enjoyed by jews and germans alike.

 

One might also be motivated by a curious and skeptical nature. Or a love of conspiracies, most of which have nothing to do with racial bias or hatred. Or just a simple desire to discover the truth of history for themselves, and what they will ultimately discover is that much of our acceptance of historical facts is closely akin to our acceptance of religious ideas. History and truth are not interchangeable terms.

 

I say all of this to suggest that perhaps Varokhar's, or whosever words it was that prompted your reply, were not strictly hateful. Is that possible? If they were not hateful can you see how the suggestion that they were might bristle a few neck hairs? Ignorance and hate are not twins, though they often share the same incestuous bed. I don't mean to beat a dead horse on this issue, not do I wish to reopen a thread about the holocaust. This is just my opinion, and I offer it as Exibit A, in the trial of how I may question certain issues of the holocaust wihout being a racist.

 

The first Jew I was ever aware of knowing was a girl from a neighboring high school whom I'd see at speech and debate tournaments. She took me into her life, her home, her dazzling intellect, her passion for beauty, her admiration for excellence and, so critical to me for the rest of my life, her history with her Holocaust-survivor parents. Like many survivors, they told their children nothing of their experiences. The children were left to piece together the bizarre parental eruptions over seemingly meaningless statements, the abrupt departures from stores or movie theaters, the inexplicable moves, depressions, psychosomatic illnesses, and so much more, on an almost daily basis.

 

Along with witnessing some of these behaviors from the parents, I also was the recipient of their unaccountable kindness, their childlike gratitude when I was appreciative of their food or other efforts they made toward including me in their lives. They adored watching the friendship develop between Martha and me. They loved me. And it was love like I'd never experienced. It was a desperate kind of love, like one would have for the promise of relief from unbearable physical pain.

 

I understand. My close relationship with the Ruhe family throughout my life has taught me much about humanity. Jamal and his sister Shamsi (whom I played guitar for in her band for the 2 years I was in NYC) Shamsi are two f the most talented, passionate, intelligent human beings I've ever met. My relationship with that family has been like iron sharpening iron for me in so many ways. In addition to offering me a social education I couldn't get anywhere else, at the time, they also drove me to be better than I am, and still do. Their musical talents humble me to this day.

 

Because of the intense love and respect I had and have for them, I made it a part of my personal crusade to weed out racism. In so doing, I discovered that racial prejudice is almost never as simple as just one human hating another, and it is never an indication of some fundamental flaw in a person's spirit. Tribalism is one of the most base and fundamental aspects of human culture. No society has ever escaped it. It warps the truth, and causes people to behave in a way not befitting their human status, but none of us, not even you, I believe, pitchu, are totally vaccinated against it. I continue to try to understand my own mind, and how it's ultimately just a small portion of the collective.

 

I've given thought to this first "Jewish" experience of mine over the years, and I've still not solved the puzzle of it. I do know that during the ensuing years Jews have figured largely in almost all good things that have come to me. I'm a Judeophile. When I've expressed this to Jews, I've often seen on their faces the flicker of that same kind of astonished gratitude. Pretty much across the board, Jews aren't used to being loved by gentiles.

 

Is it at all possible that this is in part due to that fact that Judaism seems to carry and inherent dislike for "gentiles" I know that this might not be the case, at least as far as you know, with the family for which you've professed such a love. But surely, like the rest of us, you can see how someone familiar with judaism through their own religious texts might not be so sure that, to the jews, gentiles are equal, qualified human beings.

 

It was the aftermath of the Holocaust that visited Martha and her family and untold numbers of American families whose parents escaped Hitler's death decree for all European Jews. I can only assume that Martha's children, if they exist, bear their own scars from that "ancient" history.

 

Ther is no question in my mind that nazi Germany desired and sought the total eradication of the jews. Himmler's own words to the SS in a secret recorded speech, make it clear that "ausrotten" was their goal. But is it also so clear than anyone and everyone who might get sucked up into the specious theatre of "evidence" against the holocaust could only be motivated by racial hatred? I am not so sure.

 

Please read the post that prompted my outburst on that thread. It was not about Israel. The subject of Israel hadn't even come up. Everybody has a right to take any nation and its various leaders to task for doing things which nations and leaders should not do. But that post was about the Holocaust.

 

The post claimed that "...Conquest was Hitler's goal in Europe, not genocide." And, "No doubt many of the Jewish deaths came about through simple mistreatment and spur-of-the-moment executions, as well as disease and friendly fire from Allied bombs."

 

Yes, you are right, it wasn't an honest criticism of israel to which you were responding. I see that. But, it wasn't an obviously hatefilled diatribe, either. Ignorant, perhaps, but I don't see that kind of hate in those posts.

 

I called it smug, hateful speech then, and I call it that now. In the face of abundant documentation of Hitler's goal of a Juden-free Europe, and the documented prisoner-messages sneaked out of the camps begging the Allies to bomb the rails leading to the camps, bomb the camps themselves, the claims in this post are ugly, brutal, inhuman.

 

Honestly, beyond highschool history, I hadn't studied the war or the holocaust at all. The only thing that sparked my curiousity was the documentary I saw by David Cole, a jew who has since renounced his video and apologised. I wouldn't have spent 10 seconds listening to a blonde swastika brandishing aryan abotu such a topic. But this jewish kid said alot of things that set my mind in motion. I still have questions, but I don't have any certain belief either way about the answers to those questions.

 

They are claims that sound very much like those of the unmerciful Japanese overseer of the torture camps that held American POWs who died by the thousands building the rails and bridges of the infamous "River Kwai" area. Even in an interview in 1980, this man claimed that the Americans died because they were fed rice and it didn't agree with them, so they didn't eat much and became weak and susceptible to disease. He was never charged with war crimes.

 

There is no excuse for war crimes. And there is no excuse for denying war crimes. And there are generational repercussions from these crimes. And, no, "reason" will not see to staving off the re-emergence of such crimes in the future (as claimed in that post) because reason has never done so, because reason has no power against the psychology that perpetuates such crimes.

 

I don't think I was ever trying to excuse war crimes. I just had some doubts about the details. I know there was some mess about crematory ovens in the first thread, and the only reason I didn't acquiesce is that I thought the person makeing the argument was a shitheel, didn't even understand the point they were trying to make, and ultimately didn't care.

So, the above is something akin to an explanation for my fervid comments on matters Jewish. It's my response to your eloquent telling of your own childhood story and of the suffering you've endured at the hands of those elevated creatures, Perfect Human Beings.

 

I have much more understanding of what happened between you and me, and even more of you as a person. I'm grateful for it. I hope this post will accomplish something of the same for you.

 

(I doubt I'll have a chance to get back to you before my departure today.)

 

I have a newfound respect for you, pitchu, and, like you said, a better understanding of what went wrong and my responsibility in the matter. I don't think we are all that different and I look forward to further exchanges of ideas.

[Checkmate]

Heh, heh, heh!

 

I told you guys.

 

 

There's a little bit more to that guy than just the crust on his underwear.

Awright, awright! Don't rub it in. If there's one thing I hate, it's a smug fucking mouse!

[Fweethawt]

If there's one thing I hate, it's a smug fucking mouse!

Maybe so. But you can't hate me.

 

I'm sorry, but you just can't.

 

It's like one of those universal laws.

 

You may think you can break it, but you can't.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

I hates meeces to pieces!

[Knightley]

I know there's something not-kosher about posting this in the regular forums, but I have no where else to post it, so I hope it survives long enough for a few of you that I may have rubbed the wrong way to read it.

 

I love this site. I've been looking for something like it since the day I left christianity. I love the people here, even when I may vehemently disagree with them. It may be hard to believe, but love is one of the principle ideals that I'd like to be known for.

 

Herein lies the rub. No matter how much I love love, I sometimes act like a jackass. Sure, sometimes it's my drinking, but it's more than that. From the earliest memories I have of my social interaction I have always just said the first thing that pops into my mind. Now, I understand that this isn't always the best policy, especially when you can be counted on to be under the influence for a significant portion of your waking life. But, it's who I am. I take all the blame, but I also think my sometimes poor social skills are a direct result of my fundy upbringing.

 

In any case, the part of me that has offended many of you with my insensitive words isn't the part of me where "I" live, if that makes any sense. Like many of you I have adapted to life by hook or by crook, but my insensitivity is born out of sensitivity, if that makes any sense, and it's never my desire to hurt anyone who hasn't hurt me.

 

I say all of this mostly to say that those of you on the site who doubt (for lack of a better word) my humanity or decency, read through all of my posts. I'm pretty sure you'll see some of yourself somewhere in there. I'm on the team, whether you like it or not.

 

 

 

I don't hate you. I don't hold any grudges, I usually like to move on. Yeah we can all act like jackasses now and then, I've made mistakes on this forum like changing names, what was the fuck that about?! I bet I confused people here as well. Anyway, its cool dude.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

I know there's something not-kosher about posting this in the regular forums, but I have no where else to post it, so I hope it survives long enough for a few of you that I may have rubbed the wrong way to read it.

 

I love this site. I've been looking for something like it since the day I left christianity. I love the people here, even when I may vehemently disagree with them. It may be hard to believe, but love is one of the principle ideals that I'd like to be known for.

 

Herein lies the rub. No matter how much I love love, I sometimes act like a jackass. Sure, sometimes it's my drinking, but it's more than that. From the earliest memories I have of my social interaction I have always just said the first thing that pops into my mind. Now, I understand that this isn't always the best policy, especially when you can be counted on to be under the influence for a significant portion of your waking life. But, it's who I am. I take all the blame, but I also think my sometimes poor social skills are a direct result of my fundy upbringing.

 

In any case, the part of me that has offended many of you with my insensitive words isn't the part of me where "I" live, if that makes any sense. Like many of you I have adapted to life by hook or by crook, but my insensitivity is born out of sensitivity, if that makes any sense, and it's never my desire to hurt anyone who hasn't hurt me.

 

I say all of this mostly to say that those of you on the site who doubt (for lack of a better word) my humanity or decency, read through all of my posts. I'm pretty sure you'll see some of yourself somewhere in there. I'm on the team, whether you like it or not.

 

 

 

I don't hate you. I don't hold any grudges, I usually like to move on. Yeah we can all act like jackasses now and then, I've made mistakes on this forum like changing names, what was the fuck that about?! I bet I confused people here as well. Anyway, its cool dude.

 

Eh, I'm over it. Some jizzbags don't like me. Fine. For a minute there I was 12 again trying to gain the approval of a bunch of dumbass "peers". I've gone beyond the perplexing "how can the douchebags not like me?" stage to the "Why should I care what a typing douchebag thinks of me"? phase, which puts the Ch issue in stark perspective for me. I'm emotionally immature enough to care what a spitoon full of judgemental teetotalers thinks for a moment, but not consistant enough to maintain that concern when it has been made obvious that my acceptance is as abitrary as the results of a celebrity poker game.

 

So, I know it's cool.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

MOST POINTLESS THREAD EVER!

 

Heh, just noticed this post. YOU ARE A RETARDED WHORE! Seriously, what the fuck kind of name is rachelness? I'm assuming that Rachel is your name, and that you are so self aggrandizing, in the face of overwherming worldly failure, as belly dancing is to real dancing like addition is to trigonometry, to name yourself with a metareference to some eternal noun which is Rachelness, which my limited resources will only permit me to define as "yeastiness with a hint of irrelevance".

 

Bless you, ridiculous, sequined hipped, trollop. And please, do not hesitate to afford your slutty sage advice whenever your vacuous skull cavity deems it appropriate.

[Guest JP]

MOST POINTLESS THREAD EVER!

 

Heh, just noticed this post. YOU ARE A RETARDED WHORE! Seriously, what the fuck kind of name is rachelness? I'm assuming that Rachel is your name, and that you are so self aggrandizing, in the face of overwherming worldly failure, as belly dancing is to real dancing like addition is to trigonometry, to name yourself with a metareference to some eternal noun which is Rachelness, which my limited resources will only permit me to define as "yeastiness with a hint of irrelevance".

 

Bless you, ridiculous, sequined hipped, trollop. And please, do not hesitate to afford your slutty sage advice whenever your vacuous skull cavity deems it appropriate.

 

LOL. Sorry Rach, but Shiva's rants are funny.

[Dianka]

MOST POINTLESS THREAD EVER!

 

 

I really wish you weren't mixing up Rachelness with greygirl.

 

 

Otherwise

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Crap. Who can keep track of all these sluts?

[Ex-COG]

MOST POINTLESS THREAD EVER!

 

Heh, just noticed this post. YOU ARE A RETARDED WHORE! Seriously, what the fuck kind of name is rachelness? I'm assuming that Rachel is your name, and that you are so self aggrandizing, in the face of overwherming worldly failure, as belly dancing is to real dancing like addition is to trigonometry, to name yourself with a metareference to some eternal noun which is Rachelness, which my limited resources will only permit me to define as "yeastiness with a hint of irrelevance".

 

Bless you, ridiculous, sequined hipped, trollop. And please, do not hesitate to afford your slutty sage advice whenever your vacuous skull cavity deems it appropriate.

 

LOL. Sorry Rach, but Shiva's rants are funny.

Shiva does have a way with words, doesn't he? Shiva, do you spend a lot of time writing your posts, or can you just whip them out effortlessly?

[NotBlinded]

I didn't vote for or against you...I haven't been in the CH for months now. Either way...you're just an asshole.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm just kidding!!!!!!!! HA! There are far greater assholes on here than you Shiva. hehehe

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

I didn't vote for or against you...I haven't been in the CH for months now.

 

How does that work? Did they kick you out? Let me guess, just like the in voting process, anyone can call a vote at any time to kick you out, and if even one person votes against you, they have to go with that one negative vote, because it's uber important that everyone feel safe in the CH and some panty waste didn't feel safe around you because you mentioned that their post about having the boils on their moldy vagina lanced was kinda gross and it made them cry? Am I right?

[NotBlinded]

I didn't vote for or against you...I haven't been in the CH for months now.

 

How does that work? Did they kick you out? Let me guess, just like the in voting process, anyone can call a vote at any time to kick you out, and if even one person votes against you, they have to go with that one negative vote, because it's uber important that everyone feel safe in the CH and some panty waste didn't feel safe around you because you mentioned that their post about having the boils on their moldy vagina lanced was kinda gross and it made them cry? Am I right?

You are sooooo bad! No, it's not that at all. I can still go in there (I think!), but my beliefs have changed from when I was voted in, so I didn't think it was proper for me to go in there any longer. I'm not an atheist anymore, not that that is a requirement, but it's a stipulation that I put on myself. I just couldn't trust myself to not offer people my 'tainted' opinions when that place is somewhere they can go to escape 'tainted' opinions. It's all my doing. I'm sure if I didn't get all preachy, they would still be fine with me being in there. It's just a choice I made.

 

Now, go on with your bad self Shiva... I hope no one takes this wrong, but it's more exciting out here!

[Knightley]

Well Shiva, I'm sure you'll make it to the sorority that must not be named eventually

 

I like that you're opening up to us more on the forums, its cool to see you do that.

[Dianka]

the boils on their moldy vagina lanced

 

OH GODAMMIT!!!!!

 

 

 

I WAS EATING BLUEBERRIES!!!!!

 

Must you paint such a vulger picture???

 

 

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

the boils on their moldy vagina lanced

 

OH GODAMMIT!!!!!

 

 

 

I WAS EATING BLUEBERRIES!!!!!

 

Must you paint such a vulger picture???

 

 

 

In a word, yes.

[pitchu]

Shiva, I appreciate the thoughtfulness that went into your last post to (mainly) me on this thread. I'm gonna bow out from that particular discussion here, though, with the resigned certainty that the issue will come around again.

 

And again.

 

 

And again.

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

Shiva, I appreciate the thoughtfulness that went into your last post to (mainly) me on this thread. I'm gonna bow out from that particular discussion here, though, with the resigned certainty that the issue will come around again.

 

And again.

 

 

And again.

 

Probably a wise decision.

[Ex-COG]

the boils on their moldy vagina lanced

 

OH GODAMMIT!!!!!

 

 

 

I WAS EATING BLUEBERRIES!!!!!

 

Must you paint such a vulger picture???

 

 

Get all the stains scrubbed off your monitor yet?

[Knightley]

well I know that I was up for vote at the Clubhouse and I rejected the nomination just recently, from what I hear its not that special anyway, too much drama, gossip, elitism, etc.

[Guest JP]

well I know that I was up for vote at the Clubhouse and I rejected the nomination just recently, from what I hear its not that special anyway, too much drama, gossip, elitism, etc.

 

That's not all it's about. It just seems that way recently. Sad to hear you've terminated your nomination...guess who was the one who nominated you?

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

well I know that I was up for vote at the Clubhouse and I rejected the nomination just recently, from what I hear its not that special anyway, too much drama, gossip, elitism, etc.

 

Smart move, girl.