Freeday Just Doesn't Get It! Evolution!

[Guest foolfromms]

In an eariler thread, I introduced my long time good friend Freeday. We have been going around concerning evolution and creation, so I ask him to bring the discussion here, since I'm neither a biologist or research specialist. Freeday is a good guy, just confused and brainwashed as hell. He refuses to believe anything that didn't somehow drip from the BuyBull.

 

He and myself are a perfect example of the fact Evolution is not taught in Mississippi, most students have no idea of what it is or how it effects Biology. I remember the day it was mentioned in my class, teacher told me god made us all, and evolution was Bullshit. I'm a skeptic by nature, I lost my religion long ago.

 

Freeday being an RN should at least have a grasp on evolution and the Last Common Universal Ancestor (LUCA). Like most christians he refuses to open his mind, they only way he will allow his self to see it, is through gods eyes.

 

He recently purchased a couple of books on the subject by creation scientist or some ex-atheist who converted to christianity when researching the science of it.

 

While I'm busting his balls he's trying to get F'n Fresh, somebody please teach this kid some F'n manners.... Freeday "Go home and get your Shine-Box" Lil quote from Goodfellas - In short, below is what was sent to me this last night by Freeday:

 

Interesting you should mention Charles Darwin. Let me quote some points in this book you believe to be true.

 

"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an unproved theory-is it then a science or a faith? Belief in the theory of evolution is thus exactly parallel to belief in special creation-both are concepts which believers know to be true but neither, up to the present, has been capable to prove."

 

This is taken from the intro to On the Origin of Species. it was written by L. Harrison Matthews- Bristish Biologist

 

Another quote from Darwin's book:

 

"Natural selection can act only by the preservation and accumulation of (infinitesimally) small inherited modifications, each profitable to the preserved being."

 

Interestingly enough, if you research Cambrian explosion you will find that many evolutionist have concluded that vast numbers of changes have occured all at once at various points in history. Unfortunately, this contradicts Darwin's statement. The evidence from the Cambrian period shows vast quanties of creatures experiencing substantial (non-infinitesimal) change- all within a relatively short time. In fact, gradualism is not supported anywhere in the fossil record.

 

I believe you will find that the term for this new theory is punctuated equilibrium. Which essentially means that evolution took place in very rapid spurts-at those times when new species were formed. Huh, that doesn't really seem to fit Darwin's statement?

 

Darwin was rightly disturbed by the lack of "transitional" species in the fossil record. He asked:

 

"But, as by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers on the crust of the earth?"

 

Now, even though millions of fossils have been found since Darwin's time, we still can't identify any transitional species-let alone "countless numbers." In fact, in the fossil record body parts and systems are either fully formed or non existent.

 

I am not completely criticizing Darwin. The fact is, he predicted problems in his theory that are still problems today. New hard- science evidence is only adding to these difficulties.

 

Maybe, this will give you something to think on. Let me pose a question that maybe you can answer to help me better understand evolution:

 

How do inanimate molecules come to life in the first place?

 

As far as my belief goes the answer to that is simple: God created life. Maybe you could shed some light on how your belief would answer that question.

 

Christian Science, AKA Pesudoscience, gotta love it! I think this vacation I'm going to Dr. Kent Hovind's Dinosaur Adventure Land in Pensacola, Florida.

 

Dinosaur Adventure Land - Adventure in BullShit

 

2006 and people still believe this shit to the end!

[Vigile]

Perhaps the mods might consider moving this to the Science and Religion section. Maybe then Neil and CT might be enticed to come back and tag team this burgeoning creationist.

[Antlerman]

Since we're consolating the topic here (which is a good idea) I want to make sure this post of mine below with proper references for him are included:

 

i asked for explinations of evolution, i was dirrected to an article that i found uninformative. i think maybe i posted the question in the wrong forum.

 

i still can't comprehend how thousands of species evolved from one single cell. so i went out and purchased a book on evolution.

Oh, I apologize. I didn't realize you were unaware of the ToE altogether. My reference was to talk about why what the Scientific Method was, and why is is incorrect and an error to refer to the Theory of Evolution as "just a theory", as you stated.

 

Here's a series as primer on Evolution that should be right up your ally having some exposure to medical education. It's from the Howard Hughes Medical Instutue: http://www.hhmi.org/biointeractive/evolution/lectures.html

 

Also another good resource is here: http://www.becominghuman.org/

 

I will forward more as I find pertainent resources. In the meatime, I must admit I a bit surprised you are not really familiar with Evolution to the point you need to learn it, having studied biology in College. I'm sorry you haven't yet learned this. I hope these sources will be more helpful to you. Enjoy.

[Antlerman]

Oh, I just read that stuff in the quote above from the Creationists handbook. Garbage. If you are going to study evolution, you do not go to the Evolution Deniers to learn what it really says. All you are getting there is biased arguments against it that are full of inaccuracies hard to being to even count. This is not how you do science. That is how you do religion. Go to the first link I posted. That's a scientist, not a minister of the Lord.

[Ouroboros]

Perhaps the mods might consider moving this to the Science and Religion section. Maybe then Neil and CT might be enticed to come back and tag team this burgeoning creationist.

Good idea.

 

Exactly.

 

This is something I actually learned from one of the fundamentalist preachers:

 

You don't go to a poor man and ask advice for investments.

 

And I know that no Christian would go to an Atheist to interpret their Holy Book, would they?

 

So why go to a Creationist to get the explanation to Evolution?

[Antlerman]

So why go to a Creationist to get the explanation to Evolution?

Because your motivated by wanting to disprove it, not understand it?

[Ouroboros]

Exactly. I know that, but it's a question Freeday needs to ask himself/herself.

 

I know I did the same thing as a Christian, and now I know how misrepresented science was in those books. Amateurs writing biased opinion about things they don't understand.

[freeday]

So why go to a Creationist to get the explanation to Evolution?

Because your motivated by wanting to disprove it, not understand it?

 

it is an excellent book in my opinion, it has explained the ToE much better than it has ever been explained to me. this message was dirrected towards a friend, not this board. i am pushing and probing him for his knowledge. the book explains in great detail the theories and then presents arguments against it. wouldn't you want both sides of the story. i think SOME people just take evolution for its word and do not properly research it for themselves.

 

i did the same thing as an early christian. well the preacher said it, so it must be true. since then i have read the bible and several other resources which reconfirmed what i believed. I also started reading about other religions to find out why i believed in mine. and in every one i read about there was always something that didn't makes sense to me.

[Ouroboros]

wouldn't you want both sides of the story.

Would 30 years against Evolution and 2 years pro evolution count as objective enough? I gave "Creationism" it's time of my life, basically almost my whole life, I think that's giving it enough attention and "side" to the story.

 

i think SOME people just take evolution for its word and do not properly research it for themselves.

Like most Christians does. They take the preacher for his words, and never look into if he's right or not.

 

i did the same thing as an early christian. well the preacher said it, so it must be true. since then i have read the bible and several other resources which reconfirmed what i believed.

That's good. Keep on doing it. You'll get a better understanding of your religion that way. Preachers are usually very emotionally involved in what they preach, and skip lots of important information just to manipulate people into agreeing with him.

 

I also started reading about other religions to find out why i believed in mine. and in every one i read about there was always something that didn't makes sense to me.

You're doing the right thing. Keep it up.

[Antlerman]

it is an excellent book in my opinion, it has explained the ToE much better than it has ever been explained to me. this message was dirrected towards a friend, not this board. i am pushing and probing him for his knowledge. the book explains in great detail the theories and then presents arguments against it. wouldn't you want both sides of the story. i think SOME people just take evolution for its word and do not properly research it for themselves.

 

i did the same thing as an early christian. well the preacher said it, so it must be true. since then i have read the bible and several other resources which reconfirmed what i believed. I also started reading about other religions to find out why i believed in mine. and in every one i read about there was always something that didn't makes sense to me.

If you sincerely want objectivity, why go to an apologist? I can pretty well guarantee you that they are creating straw man arguments based on half-truths, or just false information, then handily shooting down the opposing point of view that they just set up for failure by misrepresenting it.

 

You certainly will benefit by reading both side of the issue - by reading both sides of the issue. You are reading one side's version of the other side. It would be like me being the one to present both sides of an argument I am having with my girlfriend, then you claiming you've heard both sides of the argument objectively. This is an invalid research being laced with biases. Go to a scientist to learn science, not a religious apologist telling you what a scientist says.

 

So exactly who is the author and what are is related qualification on the subject of Evolution?

[freeday]

it is an excellent book in my opinion, it has explained the ToE much better than it has ever been explained to me. this message was dirrected towards a friend, not this board. i am pushing and probing him for his knowledge. the book explains in great detail the theories and then presents arguments against it. wouldn't you want both sides of the story. i think SOME people just take evolution for its word and do not properly research it for themselves.

 

i did the same thing as an early christian. well the preacher said it, so it must be true. since then i have read the bible and several other resources which reconfirmed what i believed. I also started reading about other religions to find out why i believed in mine. and in every one i read about there was always something that didn't makes sense to me.

If you sincerely want objectivity, why go to an apologist? I can pretty well guarantee you that they are creating straw man arguments based on half-truths, or just false information, then handily shooting down the opposing point of view that they just set up for failure by misrepresenting it.

 

You certainly will benefit by reading both side of the issue - by reading both sides of the issue. You are reading one side's version of the other side. It would be like me being the one to present both sides of an argument I am having with my girlfriend, then you claiming you've heard both sides of the argument objectively. This is an invalid research being laced with biases. Go to a scientist to learn science, not a religious apologist telling you what a scientist says.

 

So exactly who is the author and what are is related qualification on the subject of Evolution?

 

Ralph O Muncaster Dismantling Evolution. he was an ex-athiest; it doesn't list his degree, but from what i have read, he is an award winning engineer. graduate of university of colorado.

 

the other one, i had to order off the internet and has not gotten here yet, it is call the The Source.

[Antlerman]

it is an excellent book in my opinion, it has explained the ToE much better than it has ever been explained to me.

Let's see if that's true. Explain what you've been just been shown by this author (is he a scientist?).

 

i think SOME people just take evolution for its word and do not properly research it for themselves.

Well, I agree to some extent but the difference being that the scientific method is the best system of determined unbiased, objectivity about information that the world has. Through careful experimention, peer review, etc, etc. placing a higher degree of confindence in what they find and reveal is not unwarranted at all. It is a far safer bet than looking at uncredentialed, non-peer reviews, wildly speculative, logic based arguments for "evidence" that comes out of the world of religion.

 

You do not have to fully study cosmology to have a fairly secure degree of confidence that scientists are not being stupid fools about black hole theories. But ironically, again I say with force, ironically how is it that all these mistakes about science are being pointed out by NON-SCIENTISTS, and that somehow the whole scientific community is just missing these errors caught by non-scientists?! It is far, far more likely that the non-scientist are motivated by something other than pursuit of objective truth in coming up with these unsupportable accusations.

 

i did the same thing as an early christian

well the preacher said it, so it must be true. since then i have read the bible and several other resources which reconfirmed what i believed. I also started reading about other religions to find out why i believed in mine. and in every one i read about there was always something that didn't makes sense to me.

And that is the difference between you and me. I don't approach knowledge begining with a belief and looking for support for that belief. I will go wherever the information will lead me. I strive to be open minded and objective, willing at any moment to change my mind. If something doesn't make sense to me, I try to understand it by trying my objective best to see things from a new perspective (my sacred key to personal growth), rather than just concluding like you seem to be doing that it is wrong. Do you find yourself having a hard time accepting cultural differences too, "it just doesnt make sense to me"? I seek out knowledge for knowledge's sake. I think your choice in "safe" authors speaks to yours. I hope I'm wrong.

 

 

Ralph O Muncaster Dismantling Evolution. he was an ex-athiest; it doesn't list his degree, but from what i have read, he is an award winning engineer. graduate of university of colorado.

 

the other one, i had to order off the internet and has not gotten here yet, it is call the The Source.

His degree is in Theology (so's mine). He's hardly qualified as a scientist to teach Evolution. He is biased against it from the word go. I would never read someone like this for accurate information. Bad choice, if gaining accurate information is your intention.

 

You should start the the link I sent you. Then go to what he has to say after you've actually heard a scientist teach on the subject they are qualified to teach.

[Vigile]

the book explains in great detail the theories and then presents arguments against it. wouldn't you want both sides of the story. i think SOME people just take evolution for its word and do not properly research it for themselves.

 

Read *builds a strawman out of ToE and then tears it down.* Seriously, if you know nothing of evolution, how do you know that it is explaining the theory in great detail? Perhaps the details presented are not correct.

 

Some of us actually paid attention in bio/bot/zoo and did learn something about it. We've heard your creationist arguments. Frankly, we have had some experts on the subject that used to post more often but they got so tired of the paroting of creationist babble that they left out of bordom. Perhaps they are hungry again and will come back for another easy kill, or not. Swing for the fences and we'll see what you got.

 

Prediction. You will eventually give up and tell us we are blinded by Satan claiming victory in the middle of your defeat. *yawn*

[freeday]

(snip)

And that is the difference between you and me. I don't approach knowledge begining with a belief and looking for support for that belief. I will go wherever the information will lead me. I strive to be open minded and objective, willing at any moment to change my mind. If something doesn't make sense to me, I try to understand it by trying my objective best to see things from a new perspective (my sacred key to personal growth), rather than just concluding like you seem to be doing that it is wrong. Do you find yourself having a hard time accepting cultural differences too, "it just doesnt make sense to me"? I seek out knowledge for knowledge's sake. I think your choice in "safe" authors speaks to yours. I hope I'm wrong.

(snip)

 

i am going to honnest with you, the chances of me changing are slim to none, and i would expect likewise of you. i am still trying to figure out why i am here. william should have known this. i will admit i love to learn about stuff, i have more athiest friends than christian ones. maybe i am here so i can learn to identify with them better. or maybe i am hear to show not all christians are turn or burn people. we all have different beliefs and values, but it doesn't mean we can't get along.

[Open_Minded]

i am going to honnest with you, the chances of me changing are slim to none, and i would expect likewise of you. i am still trying to figure out why i am here. william should have known this. i will admit i love to learn about stuff, i have more athiest friends than christian ones. maybe i am here so i can learn to identify with them better. or maybe i am hear to show not all christians are turn or burn people. we all have different beliefs and values, but it doesn't mean we can't get along.

 

Freeday - I agree - "not all christians are true or burn people". But does this statement mean what I think it means? Does it mean you do not believe your atheist friends will fry in hell?

 

Do you believe in a literal hell?

 

If so, who does get the honor of frying for eternity?

[Lycorth]

And if Hell™ is only figurative, then why not regard the whole Babble™ as figurative?

[Antlerman]

i am going to honnest with you, the chances of me changing are slim to none, and i would expect likewise of you. i am still trying to figure out why i am here. william should have known this. i will admit i love to learn about stuff, i have more athiest friends than christian ones. maybe i am here so i can learn to identify with them better. or maybe i am hear to show not all christians are turn or burn people. we all have different beliefs and values, but it doesn't mean we can't get along.

Thanks for your being honest about your motives, however you are incorrect about my willingness to change. I am constantly changing. My having left a closed system has made the possibilites for personal growth limitless. I love having my mind changed on things. It's exciting to me. But I do understand others prefer the saftey of established borders.

 

I am happy to hear you are not a Christian who thinks all others in the world except those who share your beliefs are "wrong" and condemned. I think that's an unhealthy approach to belief that supposed to be about spirituality. Arrogance in unspiritual.

 

If you are willing to respect other views, than I have to ask why would you choose a book that is specifically titled "Debunking Evolution"? If you are not interested in learning about Evolution, but rather arguing against something you've already decided you don't want to be open to, then this is the right choice of book. But if you are sincere in wanting to know what science really teaches, then again I suggest you seek out a scientist, rather than the theologian you chose. If you don't care about learing outside the covers of one group of Christians reading of the Bible, then don't bother learning the rhetoric of Evolution Deniers. I would respect you for not caring, over going down their road of being absurd.

 

If you'd rather discuss the aspects of Christianity in a diverse world of many valid religious belief systems, I'd be happy to go there instead. Up to you.

[freeday]

i am going to honnest with you, the chances of me changing are slim to none, and i would expect likewise of you. i am still trying to figure out why i am here. william should have known this. i will admit i love to learn about stuff, i have more athiest friends than christian ones. maybe i am here so i can learn to identify with them better. or maybe i am hear to show not all christians are turn or burn people. we all have different beliefs and values, but it doesn't mean we can't get along.

Thanks for your being honest about your motives, however you are incorrect about my willingness to change. I am constantly changing. My having left a closed system has made the possibilites for personal growth limitless. I love having my mind changed on things. It's exciting to me. But I do understand others prefer the saftey of established borders.

 

I am happy to hear you are not a Christian who thinks all others in the world except those who share your beliefs are "wrong" and condemned. I think that's an unhealthy approach to belief that supposed to be about spirituality. Arrogance in unspiritual.

 

If you are willing to respect other views, than I have to ask why would you choose a book that is specifically titled "Debunking Evolution"? If you are not interested in learning about Evolution, but rather arguing against something you've already decided you don't want to be open to, then this is the right choice of book. But if you are sincere in wanting to know what science really teaches, then again I suggest you seek out a scientist, rather than the theologian you chose. If you don't care about learing outside the covers of one group of Christians reading of the Bible, then don't bother learning the rhetoric of Evolution Deniers. I would respect you for not caring, over going down their road of being absurd.

 

If you'd rather discuss the aspects of Christianity in a diverse world of many valid religious belief systems, I'd be happy to go there instead. Up to you.

 

the book goes in a methodical order, he says what he believed as an athiest, states scientific facts. then he states other scientific facts that made him not believe in evolution. i think this is a good starting point. and once i have my facts down, then we can discuss it in open forum.

[freeday]

 

Freeday - I agree - "not all christians are true or burn people". But does this statement mean what I think it means? Does it mean you do not believe your atheist friends will fry in hell?

 

Do you believe in a literal hell?

 

If so, who does get the honor of frying for eternity?

 

sometimes people focus more on the negative than the positive aspects of christianity. yes i believe in a hell. the term hades actually derived from "Gehenna." This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned. that is our depiction of hell. Jesus said that it is a place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth," and a place apart from God in darkness. The bible makes clear who will go there and who will not.

 

But i think it is important when ministering to people to focus on his great love for us. Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice so that no-one would have to spend eternity there. However, being a just God, there are consequences for those who choose to turn their backs on Him just as there are consequences for those who choose to disreguard the laws of the land.

 

do i think it is fair that my buddies have the possibility of going to hell? of course not. i wouldn't wish that on anyone. but does God think its fair that he has given us multiple opportunities to hear his message and yet some people choose not to believe it? I don't think that any of us are worthy of the salvation He has so graciously given to us. So, although it may seem unfair, what should concern you is that He has shown you the way and you have the opportunity to receive it.

 

i think a fear for the Lord is a good thing, but i don't think that it should be what motivates us to seek him. His love can offer so much more.

 

sorry for the long post, this is a tough subject.

[Ouroboros]

sometimes people focus more on the negative than the positive aspects of christianity.

Have you ever thought about why? What about the book you just got about Evolution that only focuses on the missing parts of Evolution Theory and skips the positive proofs of it?

 

The bible makes clear who will go there and who will not.

Does it now?

 

Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice so that no-one would have to spend eternity there. However, being a just God, there are consequences for those who choose to turn their backs on Him just as there are consequences for those who choose to disreguard the laws of the land.

What about people that never heard about Jesus? Or the people before Jesus?

 

What about people that lose faith, and not turn their backs to God, since they just don't believe he exists anymore? It's not really a decision, but more of a sudden realization or loss of belief. Would God give the lacking faith back if one asked him for it? What if the person actually did ask God for belief again, but didn't get the prayer answer, but only dead silence? Who's fault is it then?

 

do i think it is fair that my buddies have the possibility of going to hell? of course not.

That means that you have a higher morality than God himself. Congratulations. You prove the point.

 

You have love stretching far beyond Gods. Your fairness is greater than God.

 

 

i wouldn't wish that on anyone. but does God think its fair that he has given us multiple opportunities to hear his message and yet some people choose not to believe it?

To believe something is not a decision. You either do or you don't.

 

Do you believe in Santa Claus? Why not? Why did you decide to turn your back to Santa Claus? Even if you know that means he will give you pieces of coal at Christmas! Did you ever thought about how sad you make Father Christmas when you deny his name?

 

I don't think that any of us are worthy of the salvation He has so graciously given to us. So, although it may seem unfair, what should concern you is that He has shown you the way and you have the opportunity to receive it.

He hasn't shown it. It's just a story.

 

i think a fear for the Lord is a good thing, but i don't think that it should be what motivates us to seek him. His love can offer so much more.

Actually, you probably believe because of the culture, social environment and upbringing. You believe because you have been taugth to believe.

 

You should do an experiment. Move away from your city and family. Move to a foreign country where they don't believe in Jesus. Don't bring the Bible either. Cut all your ties and connections. Now live alone with non-Christians for 10 years. Let us see how Christian you are when you come back. Only then will you know the truth about yourself and your own faith.

[Antlerman]

do i think it is fair that my buddies have the possibility of going to hell? of course not. i wouldn't wish that on anyone. but does God think its fair that he has given us multiple opportunities to hear his message and yet some people choose not to believe it? I don't think that any of us are worthy of the salvation He has so graciously given to us. So, although it may seem unfair, what should concern you is that He has shown you the way and you have the opportunity to receive it.

 

i think a fear for the Lord is a good thing, but i don't think that it should be what motivates us to seek him. His love can offer so much more.

 

sorry for the long post, this is a tough subject.

It is curious that from what I see you say above, you seem to be saying that you feel that despite God feeling it is fair sending people to hell for eternal torment for not having faith in him, you see this as unfair. What concerns me personally, and I think most everyone else on the planet, is despite God showing love, the kind of deity that can send anyone to the sort of pointless eternal torture of an indescribable nature, is the kind of Character who is capable of being truly loving. Either that theology is based on a misreading of scripture, or you are blinding yourself to an abusive monster in the form of a deity. Why would you serve a God that feels that is justice? Are you just looking out for yourself?

 

Some other poster here last week actually commented that he felt that after the first million years, hell won't be as bad for them, that they will get used to it. I can just hear the conversation in heaven now, "Don't cry Daddy, Mommy will get used to it down there after a couple million years." Wow, what a monster. I wouldn't worship that. If I was to worship a god, he would be loving to all life. Man, what a messed up theology you believe.

[Ouroboros]

But wouldn't "getting used to Hell" basically be invalidate the intention of Hell? Isn't Hell supposed to be always painful and hurtful for eternity, and infinite dispair? If Hell is just a holiday cruise after a while, then what's the point. It has to be painful, cruel, evil, agonizing, torturing for have the true effect of punishment for the extremely serious crime of not believing there is a god.

[Skankboy]

But i think it is important when ministering to people to focus on his great love for us. Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice so that no-one would have to spend eternity there.

 

Not to derail the thread too badly, but I really would like to comment on a portion of this:

 

How exactly is what he did a sacrifice? If he was a man, died and never came back, that would be a sacrifice. But to be "god", die for a few days and then come back better than ever doesn't seem much like a sacrifice to me.

 

Also, why was the "sacrifice" necessary to begin with? I know you'll probably say original sin, but I my understanding of Ezekiel 18 would most certainly seem to run counter to this idea...

 

 

IMOHO,

[freeday]

i have to work the next couple of nights, will reply soon though.

[Ouroboros]

 

Just when we started to have fun!