Gnosis of Disbelief Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Sorry, freeday, but any entity that feels he needs to torment any being eternally for any reason whatsoever is so demented that he is unworthy of worship. You can try to wriggle your way out of that all you want, but an entity like that is simply sick. Psycho. Deranged. Untrustworthy. If that is the gawd you want to worship, you can have him. I don't think I could spend an hour with someone as psychologically fucked up as that. Spending an eternity with someone like that would not be heaven, but a living hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 i have to work the next couple of nights, will reply soon though. Why is it you only hear Xians say stuff like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnosis of Disbelief Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 i have to work the next couple of nights, will reply soon though. Why is it you only hear Xians say stuff like this? Because they don't like it when their marketing campaigns fizzle..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Because they don't like it when their marketing campaigns fizzle..... Yeah - they have to call an emergency board meeting to discuss alternative strategies. In other words, cry to the local pastor that the godless antichrists are too slick and he needs the power of Jeezus to save us all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Why is it you only hear Xians say stuff like this? Because they don't have a job like mine! Which is Partner in my own company, set my own hours work all the time, dual monitors, several computers running simultaneous... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnosis of Disbelief Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Yeah - they have to call an emergency board meeting to discuss alternative strategies. In other words, cry to the local pastor that the godless antichrists are too slick and he needs the power of Jeezus to save us all Yeah, I'm sure they have sob sessions all the time, about how Satan gets all the best advertising. Makes you wonder why a deity as super-powerful as Yahooveeh and his super-poweful son Jeebus would rely on such bumbling idiots to get their message out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Yeah, I'm sure they have sob sessions all the time, about how Satan gets all the best advertising. Makes you wonder why a deity as super-powerful as Yahooveeh and his super-poweful son Jeebus would rely on such bumbling idiots to get their message out. Zackly. Brilliant gods to rely on such an inconsistent thing as human language and literature to convery such a really important message, eh? Must not be all that important after all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open_Minded Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 yes i believe in a hell. the term hades actually derived from "Gehenna." This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned. that is our depiction of hell. Jesus said that it is a place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth," and a place apart from God in darkness. The bible makes clear who will go there and who will not. Freeday …. So… you believe in a literal hell, which literal hell? The Christian one? Christianity. Bible, Revelation 21.8 As for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolators, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death. The Islam Hell? Islam. Qur'an 78.21-30 Hell will lurk in ambush to receive home the arrogant, who will linger there for ages. They will taste nothing cool in it nor any drink except hot bathwater and slops, a fitting compensation since they have never expected any reckoning and have wittingly rejected Our signs. Everything We have calculated in writing. "So taste! Yet We shall only increase torment for you!" The Buddhist Hell? Buddhism. Lotus Sutra 3 After their lifetime's end They will enter the Avici hell, For a complete kalpa; Reborn at each kalpa's end, They thus go on revolving Unto innumerable kalpas; When they come out of hell, They will degrade into animals, Such as dogs or jackals, With lean-cheeked forms, Blue-black with scabs and sores, The sport of men; Moreover by men Hated and scorned, Ever suffering hunger and thirst, Bones and flesh withered up. Alive, beaten with thorns, Dead, with shards and stones; By cutting themselves off from the Buddha seed, They receive such recompense. And another description of Buddhist Hell Buddhism. Sutta Nipata 672-76 Then the man of unwholesome deeds boils in water infested with worms. He cannot stay still--the boiling pots, round and smooth like bowls, have no surfaces which he can get hold of. Then he is in the jungle of sword blades, limbs mangled and hacked, the tongue hauled by hooks, the body beaten and slashed. Then he is in Vetarani, a watery state difficult to get through, with its two streams that cut like razors. The poor beings fall into it, living out their unwholesome deeds of the past. Gnawed by hungry jackals, ravens and black dogs, and speckled vultures and crows, the sufferers groan. Such a state is experienced by the man of unwholesome deeds. It is a state of absolute suffering. So a sensible person in this world is as energetic and mindful as he can be. Or… maybe your partial to the Hindu version of Hell… Hinduism. Garuda Purana 3.49-71 Some of the sinful are cut with saws, like firewood, and others, thrown flat on the ground, are chopped into pieces with axes. Some, their bodies half buried in a pit, are pierced in the head with arrows. Others, fixed in the middle of a press, are squeezed like sugarcane. Some are surrounded close with blazing charcoal, enwrapped with torches, and smelted like a lump of ore. Some are plunged into heated butter, and others into heated oil, and like a cake thrown into the frying pan they are turned about. Some are thrown in the path of huge maddened elephants, and some with hands and feet bound are placed head downwards. Some are thrown into wells; some are hurled from heights; others, plunged into pits full of worms, are eaten away by them.... And now here's the tricky question … which hell will you fry in for not believing the absolute truth from the correct innerant scripture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Why is it you only hear Xians say stuff like this? Because they don't have a job like mine! Which is Partner in my own company, set my own hours work all the time, dual monitors, several computers running simultaneous... finally a voice of reason, yes i do have a job. i am currently at my job. my employer would appriciate it if i was doing somthing other than playing on the computer. so i keep it short. you speak of religion as if it is supposed to be fair and equal. how can we be equal to such a Spirit. is that why you don't believe. because it's not fair. does it offend you? i will elaborate on it later, i just don't have time right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 you speak of religion as if it is supposed to be fair and equal. how can we be equal to such a Spirit. is that why you don't believe. because it's not fair. does it offend you? i will elaborate on it later, i just don't have time right now. If this Spirit (using the captital S as you did) is not equal to us, then why does it violate our core sensiblities?? If anything it should inspire us to higher heights of the spirit, not vex and trouble us as to our very response to the basics of love and compassion! That is what the teaching of hell does. I'm not asking that a God image be equal to us. Of course not, then how could it serve as something to aspire to? Man creates God in his own image for this reason. If however that created image is offensive - then it is neither above us, nor equal to us, but beneath us, or rather more accurately stated - behind us, back in the days of antique where blood spilled on altars appeaced various tribal deities. That image of God is no longer useful in this day and age. It serves no benefit. Are you happy about this image of God, or do just choose to ignore it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnosis of Disbelief Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 you speak of religion as if it is supposed to be fair and equal. how can we be equal to such a Spirit. is that why you don't believe. because it's not fair. does it offend you? i will elaborate on it later, i just don't have time right now. That hasn't really been the topic of this thread at all. We are talking about a psychotic monster that sees justice in torturing people for all eternity. "Fair" and "equal" are so far beyond the mentality of this sort of cruel monster that it isn't the main thrust of this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 And now here's the tricky question … which hell will you fry in for not believing the absolute truth from the correct innerant scripture? Oh that's easy! The Humanist Manifesto. If you do not accept it, you will fry forever in front of a gas range top, with an endless supply of culinary treats and an infinite cook book. Yes, there are grave, grave consequences for not agreeing with this dogmatic view of the Manifesto! Repent or cook! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 you speak of religion as if it is supposed to be fair and equal. how can we be equal to such a Spirit. is that why you don't believe. because it's not fair. does it offend you? i will elaborate on it later, i just don't have time right now. Yes, it offends me. A religion that preaches the damnation of innocent people solely for the "crime" of not being a properly fanatical member of it is offensive. A religion that demands I turn my back on my friends and family and place a deadbeat "god" at the center of my life, rather than the people who love me, is offensive. A religion that promotes hatred and bigotry, even to the point of anti-human thinking (think: all the times Jeezus refers to us as "sheep") is offensive to me. Your religion, your god, and your whole sick philosophy of spirituality is offensive to me - and hence, on that point alone, I deny it. Even if your god really did exist as he says he does, I spit in his face because he is not worthy of honor. He does not answer the prayers he promises to, he does not live up to his word, and he does not vanquish evil like any all-good and all-powerful being has a moral obligation to. Furthermore, he punishes innocent people for being tempted into the evil that he permit to run unchecked. Your god is a devil, and I do not worship devils. A religion should be fair. Why not? We think governments should be fair, courts should be fair, people should be fair to each other - why not religion? It only makes sense, except for those who believe in absolute power, totalitarianism, and autocratic cults like Xianity. For an all-good, uber-moral god to institute an unfair and confusing religion for us to follow with damnation as the punishment for not doing so is sick, cruel, and most unfair. You god has no sense of honor or morality. As an Odinist, I believe that gods are merely "amplified humans" - in other words, magnify all the noble traits of humans, and you have gods. All gods in all Pagan cultures are basically depicted like this; vulnerable to negative traits and possessing some special powers, but basically being amplified humans, with great senses of honor and nobility. Your god is not this - his "holy" books are riddled with hatred, with inconsistencies, with encouragements to cruelty, and with nasty tricks and deliberately confusing riddles. That is not an "amplified human" nor does it reflect higher and better morals or ethics - all it reflects is the unjust, sick, evil nature of the Abrahamic religions and the demons that inspired them. You can try to assuage your own self-hatred by chirping about the Abrahamic god's "incomprehensible holy nature" to us all you wish. You won't get far. For every verse about the Abrahamic god being "nice" that you can dig up in the Babble, there are two more we can cite about his cruelty and unjustifiably evil nature. So, while citing your book of lies is the only real weapon you have, understand now that it is a tin sword with no edge - you won't cut anything with it. The Holah Babble is full of lies and contradictions, and no sane person on this board is dumb enough to believe in it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedah Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 I stopped arguing with fundies about evolution once I realized that its not that they "dont get it" its that they refuse to get it. Understanding almost anything is difficult for a person who is extremely pre-biased against it to before they begin to research it...and in the case of evolution and fundies who are 100% sure its false before they know what the word biology even means it becomes downright impossible. Even when a fundy DOES actually research the science put in front of them, they are only researching it so they can attempt to pick it apart. They arent looking to fully comprehend it they just want to get to a point in the theory where they can use their " EXCELLENT " understanding of the scientific method to debunk it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnosis of Disbelief Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 I stopped arguing with fundies about evolution once I realized that its not that they "dont get it" its that they refuse to get it. Understanding almost anything is difficult for a person who is extremely pre-biased against it to before they begin to research it...and in the case of evolution and fundies who are 100% sure its false before they know what the word biology even means it becomes downright impossible. Even when a fundy DOES actually research the science put in front of them, they are only researching it so they can attempt to pick it apart. They arent looking to fully comprehend it they just want to get to a point in the theory where they can use their " EXCELLENT " understanding of the scientific method to debunk it. Very true. But you're assuming we're trying to de-convert them. I suspect that most of the ex-C'ers here could care less whether these folks de-convert or not. Some of us argue with them, anyway, because it's a good way of reinforcing why we walked away, of keeping ourselves deprogrammed. The rest of us argue with them because, quite frankly, it can be rather entertaining at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 I stopped arguing with fundies about evolution once I realized that its not that they "dont get it" its that they refuse to get it. Understanding almost anything is difficult for a person who is extremely pre-biased against it to before they begin to research it...and in the case of evolution and fundies who are 100% sure its false before they know what the word biology even means it becomes downright impossible. Even when a fundy DOES actually research the science put in front of them, they are only researching it so they can attempt to pick it apart. They arent looking to fully comprehend it they just want to get to a point in the theory where they can use their " EXCELLENT " understanding of the scientific method to debunk it. I think that I could turn this around and say the same about evolutionists. The truth of the matter is that we all have presuppositions whether you believe it or not. In the very first thread on this board you will find a quote of an email I sent to a friend. Towards the bottom I asked the question: How do inanimate molecules come to life in the first place? Amazingly enough, I have yet to see anyone post an answer or even an opinion to that question. I am trying very hard to understand why it is that you believe what you believe. Please help me out here and provide some sort of explaination to this question. I would really like to know what each of you think on this subject. You have asked questions about my beliefs and I am attempting to answer each. Now, I am asking a question about your beliefs and would hope you would attempt to answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redneck22 Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 I stopped arguing with fundies about evolution once I realized that its not that they "dont get it" its that they refuse to get it. Understanding almost anything is difficult for a person who is extremely pre-biased against it to before they begin to research it...and in the case of evolution and fundies who are 100% sure its false before they know what the word biology even means it becomes downright impossible. Even when a fundy DOES actually research the science put in front of them, they are only researching it so they can attempt to pick it apart. They arent looking to fully comprehend it they just want to get to a point in the theory where they can use their " EXCELLENT " understanding of the scientific method to debunk it. I think that I could turn this around and say the same about evolutionists. The truth of the matter is that we all have presuppositions whether you believe it or not. In the very first thread on this board you will find a quote of an email I sent to a friend. Towards the bottom I asked the question: How do inanimate molecules come to life in the first place? Amazingly enough, I have yet to see anyone post an answer or even an opinion to that question. I am trying very hard to understand why it is that you believe what you believe. Please help me out here and provide some sort of explaination to this question. I would really like to know what each of you think on this subject. You have asked questions about my beliefs and I am attempting to answer each. Now, I am asking a question about your beliefs and would hope you would attempt to answer. The short answer is, it didn't, it couldn't and it wont. DNA is not the source of the information but the carrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 I think that I could turn this around and say the same about evolutionists. The truth of the matter is that we all have presuppositions whether you believe it or not. I changed my mind after a course in Botony. I went in a creationist and came out understanding that there was no way around ToE. Most of the members on this board changed their paradigm by choosing to be objective. I spent more than 20 years in your shoes. How many have you spent in mine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Towards the bottom I asked the question: How do inanimate molecules come to life in the first place? Amazingly enough, I have yet to see anyone post an answer or even an opinion to that question. I am trying very hard to understand why it is that you believe what you believe. Please help me out here and provide some sort of explaination to this question. I would really like to know what each of you think on this subject. You have asked questions about my beliefs and I am attempting to answer each. Now, I am asking a question about your beliefs and would hope you would attempt to answer. What is you're asking? My beliefs or a scientific explaination for why chemical react in a certain way towards a preditable outcome? Those are two seperate questions. If you are trying to ask a question along the lines of "what happened before the big bang?", I have no answer for you that science can address. If you are asking what my religious beliefs are, that's a sperate question. Science is not faith. This is why I sent you those original links. Read them again to see how your question is irrelevant, if that is what your are suggesting: that since science can't yet address certain questions this somehow allows magic to fill that current gap of knowledge. To answer what I believe, if that is an appropriate word to use: I believe every single thing in the natural world has a natural explaination. Everything so far that the magic believers have pointed to as evidence of a god, invariably turn out to have natural explainations, after which a sufficient amount of time has passed after much grumbling and complaining from the faith crowd, is forotten in the pages of history only to be replaced by the arugments you a latching onto today. Same thing. God of the Gaps theory. There is nothing to indicate that natural explainations exist for everything in nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubergeek Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 For my first post to the forum here (I'm a regular on the main site), I'd simply like to offer an alternative - and more authoritative than most apologetic literature - source to any Christian who argues against evolution. In my humble opinion, moving from faith in special creation to understanding of evolution sometimes begins by taking baby steps - hearing it from the mouths of other Christians. The main site is <a href="http://www.asa3.org/">The American Scientific Affiliation</a>. Basically, they want to present current science in the Christian perspective. Thus, it's friendly to the Christian worldview, but there's a ton of material that supports evolution. Specifically, I recommend visiting their <a href="http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Evolution/index.html">Creation/Evolution</a> page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 I think that I could turn this around and say the same about evolutionists. The truth of the matter is that we all have presuppositions whether you believe it or not. I changed my mind after a course in Botony. I went in a creationist and came out understanding that there was no way around ToE. Most of the members on this board changed their paradigm by choosing to be objective. I spent more than 20 years in your shoes. How many have you spent in mine? I don't see your answer to my question in this post. Is it that you are attempting to change the subject? Please give me an explaination to this basic question. Without an explaination there seems to be no reason for me to doubt the existence of God. Therefore, I need not spend any years in your shoes. If God is a Spirit, which the Bible clearly states that He is, then He could exist outside of time and matter. Therefore He is capable of creating life. My question is if there is no God, how do inanimate molecules come to life in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubergeek Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 For my first post to the forum here (I'm a regular on the main site), I'd simply like to offer an alternative - and more authoritative than most apologetic literature - source to any Christian who argues against evolution. In my humble opinion, moving from faith in special creation to understanding of evolution sometimes begins by taking baby steps - hearing it from the mouths of other Christians. The main site is <a href="http://www.asa3.org/">The American Scientific Affiliation</a>. Basically, they want to present current science in the Christian perspective. Thus, it's friendly to the Christian worldview, but there's a ton of material that supports evolution. Specifically, I recommend visiting their <a href="">Creation/Evolution</a> page. Crap...the tags didn't work. Here's the site without all the HTML junk: http://www.asa3.org and http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Evolution/index.html Can anyone tell me if there are valid link tags on this forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Towards the bottom I asked the question: How do inanimate molecules come to life in the first place? Amazingly enough, I have yet to see anyone post an answer or even an opinion to that question. I am trying very hard to understand why it is that you believe what you believe. Please help me out here and provide some sort of explaination to this question. I would really like to know what each of you think on this subject. You have asked questions about my beliefs and I am attempting to answer each. Now, I am asking a question about your beliefs and would hope you would attempt to answer. What is you're asking? My beliefs or a scientific explaination for why chemical react in a certain way towards a preditable outcome? Those are two seperate questions. If you are trying to ask a question along the lines of "what happened before the big bang?", I have no answer for you that science can address. If you are asking what my religious beliefs are, that's a sperate question. Science is not faith. This is why I sent you those original links. Read them again to see how your question is irrelevant, if that is what your are suggesting: that since science can't yet address certain questions this somehow allows magic to fill that current gap of knowledge. To answer what I believe, if that is an appropriate word to use: I believe every single thing in the natural world has a natural explaination. Everything so far that the magic believers have pointed to as evidence of a god, invariably turn out to have natural explainations, after which a sufficient amount of time has passed after much grumbling and complaining from the faith crowd, is forotten in the pages of history only to be replaced by the arugments you a latching onto today. Same thing. God of the Gaps theory. There is nothing to indicate that natural explainations exist for everything in nature. I was simply asking how science can prove life came from an inanimate molecule. You have answered that by saying that science cannot prove it. You have also said that "science is not faith." However, it would seem to me that it would be a giant leap of faith to take something as fact that simply cannot be proven. Amazingly enough, God can fill those gaps as you said "God of the Gaps." Since we know this to be true then previous arguements that the Bible was written by unintelligent people simply cannot be true. I think that we can all agree that life does exist. Therefore, there must be some explaintion as to why. If you do not agree that life exist then maybe you should ask yourself if you are really reading this after all. Because if in fact, reality does not exist then we really aren't here to care so it makes no difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedah Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 The truth of the matter is that we all have presuppositions whether you believe it or not. There is a huge differance between basing pressupositions on your 5 senses and understanding of reality in comparison to basing them on what you want reality to be, whether you believe it or not. Grow a spine, and use logic. If logic doesnt work for you, accept that and grab the guts to admit that your wrong. Attacking the vey essence of logic with pressupositionalist crap only succeeds in proving how pathetically desperate you are. I was simply asking how science can prove life came from an inanimate molecule. You have answered that by saying that science cannot prove it. You have also said that "science is not faith." However, it would seem to me that it would be a giant leap of faith to take something as fact that simply cannot be proven. Amazingly enough, God can fill those gaps as you said "God of the Gaps." Since we know this to be true then previous arguements that the Bible was written by unintelligent people simply cannot be true. Science isnt a magic that claims to know everything, its a system to figure something out that is unknown. The fact that you dont even recognize this basic point proves what I said earlier - You dont want to get it. You arent interested in getting it. You probobly never will get it. Im only saying this for shits and giggles. You may tell yourself you want to get it, but here you are questioning the absolute drop dead basics without even attempting to further comprehend the big picture. You would rather make unsupportable claims to fill in any gaps, failing to understand that "gaps" in science are not really gaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 If God is a Spirit, which the Bible clearly states that He is, then He could exist outside of time and matter. Therefore He is capable of creating life. What does "spirit" mean? What does it mean to exist outside time and matter? My question is if there is no God, how do inanimate molecules come to life in the first place? I don't know and neither do you. "Goddidit" is a cop out though. Before we learned that bacteria and viruses caused illness people thought that goddidit as well. God of the gaps is a logical falacy. BTW, ToE does not adress this issue. Perhaps you should learn what it is before you criticize it. You're pretty heady for someone who admits they know nothing about ToE other than that it is wrong. No need to start getting rude here. I don't care what you believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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