nicoleeann Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 it seems to me that going to heaven/hell should be by works and faith should count for nothing. yeah, yeah, we all have "sinned" but wasn't that what free will was created for in the first place? choosing which way to go? If I were to believe in heaven/hell I would like for it to be fair, anyone else agree? The story of the progigal son is one of my worst favorites in the bible. He goes out and wastes all his fathers money while the other son is responsible and caring of his father, but still the progigal gets rewarded. the bible god is not "fair and just" at all. If it was true then the worst should get the worst punnishment and the best should get heaven. god makes the rules now doesn't he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHEMtron Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 that bodes well for me.... im the prodigal of all prodigal sons any sane person would agree with you and me. what i never understood is how one does good deeds just to get into heaven and is accepted. if that's the only reason why they perform good deeds, then their heart isnt it. they shouldnt be rewarded by going to heaven. i always felt it should be like in the song "santa claus is coming to town".... so be good for goodness sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Of course; it's logical to place more emphasis on a person's deeds than on which religion they follow. In most Heathen religions, that is the case. Xianity, on the other hand, is about loyalty to its god and cult. Of course, other parts of the Babble justify works and the favor of their god, so the book is as always in contradiction. No wonder Xians can't even agree on the issue of salvation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnosis of Disbelief Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Honestly, if there is an afterlife, I doubt that there would be much we could do about it. All this talk about faith and works is just human beings' attempts to pretend that they have control over things for which they have no control whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicoleeann Posted June 21, 2006 Author Share Posted June 21, 2006 that bodes well for me.... im the prodigal of all prodigal sons any sane person would agree with you and me. what i never understood is how one does good deeds just to get into heaven and is accepted. if that's the only reason why they perform good deeds, then their heart isnt it. they shouldnt be rewarded by going to heaven. i always felt it should be like in the song "santa claus is coming to town".... so be good for goodness sake. I agree! If christianity were to be true, here is how I would see it: 1. We would not be told about god or heaven/hell 2. We would each get at least 100 lives to figure it out. 3. We would each get our share of bad/good/poor/rich/smart/dumb/ugly/etc. lives so that it would be completely fair and we would actually get to experience being bad before we choose good. 4. then finally at the end we would be seperated into bad/good groups. that would be a fair god. anyone can "accept jesus" on their death bed, and i guarantee you alot of people do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 The current belief-du-jour about Paul's "strictly by faith" must ignore one or two other passages in the bible that give a few different requirements. Jesus had some other minor requirements in order to make it to heaven: 1. Don't call anyone a fool. Matt 5:22 2. Avoid getting turned on. Matt 5:27 3. Be Perfect. Matt 5:48 4. Not allowed to have a savings account. Matt 6:19 5. Not allowed to worry. Matt 6:25 6. Not allowed to get divorced or marry a divorced person. Matt 19:19 7. Hand over your 10% . Matt 23:23 8. Don't seek a sign from God. Mark 8:11 9. Don't be a hypocrite. Mark 8:38 10. Spend all your time telling others about Jesus. Mark 16:15 11. Love your enemies. Luke 6:27 12. Hate your life. Luke 14:26 13. Forsake all your possessions. Luke 14:33 Simple plan, really. Of course, Jesus called people fools. And he loved his enemies by calling them snakes, vipers, whited sepulchurs, and telling them their father was Satan. I think the gospel writers needed a better editor to make sure the storyline was a little clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Simple plan, really. Yeah - some "free gift," huh? Kind of like those credit card offers you get in the mail. Big savings for one year - then massive fees to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Meadows Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 I used to think about justification through faith or works as a Christian and settled for work done through faith. Now I see it as being a false choice. If a person accepts there is a creator then the persons worth is simply down to the fact that the creator choose to bring him into existence. The creator doesn't need any works from his creature to buy his love, the gift of existence is exactly that - gift from a being who is love itself and that love gives birth to us. Neither does he need an act of faith in how a person pictures him in order to earn that love - for his own reasons he has chosen to remain hid and if he wanted anyone to know for sure exactly what they should think about him then he could have done so. In this scenario there is no hell for its contradicts Gods goodness to knowingly bring into existence a creature he knew in advance was destined for eternal torture, especially when that creature never asked to be born in the first place. Time is an analogue for distance. In this world we are put at a certain distance from God and obtain experience of what it is like being apart from God. In heaven there will be no temptation to want to leave - you have already experienced life in this world and your free will chooses accordingly. Instead of hell there would be a purification of the heart prior to entrance to heaven. The harm we have done to others we now experience and in the doing so are sorry for the pain inflicted on others. There is no punishment just for the sake of punishment. All the above is pure speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicoleeann Posted June 22, 2006 Author Share Posted June 22, 2006 I used to think about justification through faith or works as a Christian and settled for work done through faith. Now I see it as being a false choice. If a person accepts there is a creator then the persons worth is simply down to the fact that the creator choose to bring him into existence. The creator doesn't need any works from his creature to buy his love, the gift of existence is exactly that - gift from a being who is love itself and that love gives birth to us. Neither does he need an act of faith in how a person pictures him in order to earn that love - for his own reasons he has chosen to remain hid and if he wanted anyone to know for sure exactly what they should think about him then he could have done so. In this scenario there is no hell for its contradicts Gods goodness to knowingly bring into existence a creature he knew in advance was destined for eternal torture, especially when that creature never asked to be born in the first place. Time is an analogue for distance. In this world we are put at a certain distance from God and obtain experience of what it is like being apart from God. In heaven there will be no temptation to want to leave - you have already experienced life in this world and your free will chooses accordingly. Instead of hell there would be a purification of the heart prior to entrance to heaven. The harm we have done to others we now experience and in the doing so are sorry for the pain inflicted on others. There is no punishment just for the sake of punishment. All the above is pure speculation. yeah, i agree with what you said, but I was just talking about what would make the heaven/hell scenerio the fairest it could be if it were in existance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurari Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Very well put, those are my feelings exactly, GM. The christian god is neither omnipotent or unconditionally loving, and creation simply wouldn't be able to last if it were true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Nicoleeann, nice thought provoking thread! it seems to me that going to heaven/hell should be by works and faith should count for nothing. Why shouldn't we ALL eventually end in the same place of peace and joy? yeah, yeah, we all have "sinned" but wasn't that what free will was created for in the first place? choosing which way to go? If I were to believe in heaven/hell I would like for it to be fair, anyone else agree? I think we should get more than what's fair. The story of the progigal son is one of my worst favorites in the bible. He goes out and wastes all his fathers money while the other son is responsible and caring of his father, but still the progigal gets rewarded. Hmmmm.... I think it was the other one that was the prodigal son. You know, the one that was complaining about the feast because his brother had returned. the bible god is not "fair and just" at all. If it was true then the worst should get the worst punnishment and the best should get heaven. Surely all should be held accountable and responsible for their decisions/behavior! However... in a perfect justice system, do we offer some sort of compassion for those of us that don't know any better? What about those of us that are a victim of their particular life circumstances? Wouldn't it be best if we overcame our issues and had heaven right here on earth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicoleeann Posted June 23, 2006 Author Share Posted June 23, 2006 Amanda- I am not saying that I believe that what i said should be what happens. I am just saying that if god were to organize us into groups of hell vs. heaven bound it seems like it would be by who does best vs. who does worst. yes I know that we all come from different circumstances-that's why i don't agree with heaven/hell existing. what i'm saying is if "god" wanted a heaven/hell to exist, then it seems to me like he would pick by works instead of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 Amanda- I am not saying that I believe that what i said should be what happens. I am just saying that if god were to organize us into groups of hell vs. heaven bound it seems like it would be by who does best vs. who does worst. yes I know that we all come from different circumstances-that's why i don't agree with heaven/hell existing. what i'm saying is if "god" wanted a heaven/hell to exist, then it seems to me like he would pick by works instead of faith. Nicoleeann, I think we basically agree. IMO, heaven and hell are just states of mind. Of course "god" would not send anyone to a literal hell! How could anyone follow a guy because of the threat of a literally burning eternal hell? Let me ask you something to think about though... if we really did have convicted faith in these principles, such as love others as yourself, wouldn't our works automatically have to follow? Isn't it faith without works is dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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