God, Jesus Or Man: Who Led You Away?

[Taphophilia]

ISB,

 

In case you didn't know, many of the members here are ex-pastors, have degrees in religious studies, have gone to theology school, have been missionaries, or at the very least have done an in depth study of the Bible and Christianity. It's not like one day we woke up and decided to reject Jesus, Christianity, and our entire way of living our life. It was a long and, yes, painful process, as you can imagine. For someone like you to come here and tell us old cliche's we have heard over and over again, yes, we get offended.

If you want to listen to what we have to say and have an open discussion, we welcome you. However, when you come in here slinging the same old muck, we get testy.

 

Taph

[Lycorth]

Indeed.

 

ISB, quit whining. You know nothing about our many varied beliefs, and not much more about your own.

 

And Xianity has been fragmented for centuries and is dying rapidly today. The "Gates of Hell™" don't need to triumph against it - it'll triumph against itself.

 

We've heard rants like yours, before. As vapid and pointless as your religion.

 

Now go educate yourself on other people's beliefs before you run your mouth about them, and then maybe we'll talk - and maybe you'll be one of us by then

[julian]

Reply to Istillbelieve

1) Indestructibility Evidences. For centuries powerful people and even nations have attempted to destroy God's word and its truth, but here it stand just as Christ said it would.

 

You really can't be serious. The fact that people have been buying into a religion doesn't make it right, sane, logical, reasonable or any of the above. Hey guys, this Flying Spagetti Monster thing and Scientology have really endured a lot of criticism! They MUST be real!

 

2) Historical Evidences. People have been skeptical and scoffed for centuries at God's word and it's truth, but Biblical archeology has proven them wrong time after time.

 

Right, because there is so much evidence of the Garden of Eden, Jesus, Moses' escape from Egypt...oh, that's right, there isn't. Please, there is no significant historical evidence to confirm or even suggest what the Bible says.

 

3) Prophetical Evidences. Many pinpoint prophecies written hundreds of years before they came to pass, shows God's inspiration on and in His scriptures. Not just written accounts and opinons of men.

 

What actually happened was people claimed they were fulfilling a prophecy, when there is no way to verify that they really were. I mean, people have claimed to be the fulfillments of many prophecies, does that make them fulfilled? It's the same exact thing. Also, men wrote the Bible, that is a fact, and furthermore, the writing is terrible and riddled with inconsistencies and flaws. Not so "divinely inspired", huh?

 

4) Scientific Evidences. Things written down like hydrological cycle, underwater springs in the ocean, ocean paths or streams, earth suspended in space on nothing, the sphericality of the earth, plus many other evidences. Something they could not have known at the time of writing, shows inspiration.

 

This is just too silly. First of all, science has beaten the living crap out of just about every Christian notion from the geocentric theory to evolution. The fact that you even mention science shows how misled and mistaken you are. By the way, the Bible mentions the four corners of the earth on multiple occassions, claims the earth has "ends" and more. Next, Isiah 40:22 says the "circle of the earth", not sphere or anything like that. Now that I've debunked those assertions, provide citations for your own.

 

5) Most important of all, on which all truth rests and how it is revealed to us is God Himself. Jesus said, "That man cannot live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from God."

 

What is this supposed to prove?

 

I really don't think that I can give any "case closed" evidence that the God that I believe in is real. God wouldn't allow that - we still have to come to Him by by Faith. Where would the choice be? God doesn't want a bunch of robots that do His will mindlessly.

 

You can't because there is no evidence. Furthermore, you are using circular logic. You say that the god you believe in wouldn't allow us to find evidence for him, but why do you believe in him in the first place if there is no evidence for that? It doesn't make sense.

 

I think some of you are too intelligent for your own good. Yes it's great to be scholarly and be able to spout off at the little Christian woman who wants to save souls - but are you truly happy with your lack of faith? Are you truly happy living lives putting down the Jesus that you once believed died on the cross to save you from your sins? I guess if you truly believe that He was evil or non existant than you should say the things you are saying. According to you I'm a fool that hasn't seen the light yet . . .

 

It's not that I, or anyone else like me, has superior intelligence, it's that we actually search were others have their eyes firmly closed. At any rate, people should not blindly believe they have souls to save or other such nonsense, so there is nothing wrong with criticising an obviously flawed mindset. Next, I am very satisfied and relieved that I am no longer part of Christianity; why wouldn't I be (I assume you are also happy)? Look, I don't agree with Christianity, I see every reason NOT to believe in it. Also, I don't think you're a fool, I already said intelligence has little to do with it.

 

Well continue to believe that the world was created by chance - I believe that it came about by the loving and jealous hands of God the Father Our Creator . . .

 

I don't believe the world was created by chance. Look at my "Any Gods?" response. And again, what is there to believe what you believe?

 

You have a hand full of rocks you throw it over your shoulder it creates a perfect heart on the ground . . . or you have a hand full of rocks and you place the rocks on the ground to create a perfect heart . . . which is easier for you to believe?

 

This doesn't apply to me, but the universe is what it is. If you throw anything, it is in the formation that it is in and that's what it is. Same concept.

 

What religion other than Christianity is as free? It's been done for me. I don't have to do anything but believe that God came to earth as Jesus and died on the cross to save me from my sins. Yes there is more that I do, but that is out of love - not fear.

 

Please. Christianity says you have to worship ONE god "or else". You HAVE to accept that you are "sinful" and that this "saviour" is your only chance for some "salvation". You must chain yourself to a book. I could go on and on. Read up on other religions (some of them have been nearly destroyed and devoured by Christianity, the "free religion", by the way) to get some perspective.

 

You're right I don't completely understand the people in this forum and how they have reached their conclusions about Christianity. I can only try to understand from my own perspective how it would be for me if I had to give up my faith. Are there things I would do if I were not a Christian? I don't think so, so I'm not imagining any evil lifestyle that any of you are living.

 

Read what people have wrote in "Testimonies of Former Christians", as well as the testimonies on the main page. Perhaps then you can understand (you don't have to agree).

 

I'm sure most of you do lead lives that you are proud of. But to me evil is anything that separates me from my God. Anything that takes my focus away from Him. That is evil to me and so yes I can say that what the majority of people are doing here is evil according to the Christian faith. But you're not Christians any more so I'm very sorry that offends you. As non believers I wouldn't think you'd care. It's not what I say that matters anyway. It's what God says (if you believe) If you don't then . . . I guess I wouldn't worry about someone calling you evil. Evil has been watered down to mean bad, but really it is a word that means sinful which is a word that describes something you do against God. So if there is no God then no evil.

 

You have quite the obtuse definition of evil. We care that Christianity labels people like us as "evil" because it only validates our conclusions and further shows the delusion of the religion.

 

On your last comment, the difference between Spock and Christianity is immense. Spock doesn't demand people consider him a "saviour", he doesn't claim people who don't like him will be eternally punished, he doesn't assert that he is the only way to truth, I could go on.

[Mythra]

It's been done for me. I don't have to do anything but believe that God came to earth as Jesus and died on the cross to save me from my sins.

 

You see that as something easy? Are you kidding?

 

If I were to say that all you have to do is believe that the Tooth Fairy is real - and I'll give you million bucks - could you do it? How could you do it? You couldn't. Not even for a million bucks.

 

Why?

 

Cause you know it ain't so.

 

And that's the crux of the matter. All of the hell threatenings from every gomer who comes in here cannot make us believe.

 

Cause we know it ain't so.

[Golden Meadows]

"I think some of you are too intelligent for your own good. Yes it's great to be scholarly and be able to spout off at the little Christian woman who wants to save souls - but are you truly happy with your lack of faith? Are you truly happy living lives putting down the Jesus that you once believed died on the cross to save you from your sins?"

 

This is just like saying "I am ignorant, I am proud to be ignorant, why can't you be ignorant like me and accept the Lord Jesus as your saviour"

[Astreja]

1) Indestructibility Evidences. For centuries powerful people and even nations have attempted to destroy God's word and its truth, but here it stand just as Christ said it would.

Incorrect. Powerful people and nations have been preserving religion because it's such a handy method of controlling the masses through fear.

5) Most important of all, on which all truth rests and how it is revealed to us is God Himself. Jesus said, "That man cannot live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from God."

False. There are millions of atheists and agnostics and non-Abrahamic theists who manage just fine, thank you. I am one of them.

I think some of you are too intelligent for your own good.

IMNSHO, that is unlikely. Knowledge is power. Oh, I forgot... The biblical god likes its followers to be subservient. Me, I prefer to work from a position of strength.

You're right I don't completely understand the people in this forum and how they have reached their conclusions about Christianity. I can only try to understand from my own perspective how it would be for me if I had to give up my faith.

See, ISB, there's the problem in a nutshell. You aren't willing to try on our shoes; you just stare in abject horror as we go strolling by.

There is bad however and the name calling is bad and mean. So yes I am sorry for saying that any of you are evil because I truly don't want to be a bad person.

Neither do we. We just see things differently.

I'll just say . . . take care and live long and prosper . . . I suppose you don't believe in Spock either . . .

Leonard Nimoy is cool, and Spock is a good character. Even if it is a myth it's still a good sentiment, and I return it to you. May life be kind.

[All Gods Fail]

I suppose you don't believe in Spock either . . . ISB

 

Well, no - Mr. Spock is a fictional character...like God.

 

Good luck!

[Thurisaz]

life must be so easy when you dont have to think.

 

Man, this is one of the moments when I wish there was a reputation system here, like the one on christianforums.com. You'd get about half of my own rep right now

 

you may be 40 something but you have the conscience of a 6 year old.

...

its like tring to talkpolitics with a three year old and all the baby does is puts hir hand over hir ears and says lalalalalalala.

 

In other words, standard cookie-cutter fundie-brat demeanor

 

What religion other than Christianity is as free?

 

You don't know freedom where religion is concerned. You're bound by "divine" sadistic rules.

 

Compare with the faith Varokhar, AndreasBolle and I share. We got recommendations from our Gods, but they respect us just as much as we respect them. They wouldn't order us into anything, for that would be disrespect.

 

Talk about "freedom" again fundie brat.

[Checkmate]

>retarded, standard ramblings<....

. . . I'll just say . . . take care and live long and prosper . . . I suppose you don't believe in Spock either . . .

ISB

 

And NO, we don't "believe in Spock". WTF?!? Am I supposed to believe in yet ANOTHER fictional character, simply because I like Star Trek™? I LOVE the Wrath of Khan. I LOVE Gene Roddenberry's work. But of course I don't "believe in Spock"! Such a statement PROVES how insane you are, ISB!

 

One can receive inspiration from a WORK OF FICTION, and NOT "believe in" the characters as real! THIS is where we differ. WE are rational. YOU are fucking insane!

[Mythra]

What religion other than Christianity is as free?

 

Uh. Right.

 

Guard your heart. Guard your mind. Put on the full armour. The devil roams the earth looking for someone to devour. To hate is to murder. To lust is to commit adultery. Don't associate with sinners. If you don't forsake all that you have you canot be my disciple. Everyone who humbles himself will be exalted. Fear him who has the ability to cast you into hell. Take care then how you hear. Why do you call me Lord and not do what I tell you? No one is good except God alone. Whoever loses his life for the sake of the gospel will save it. Everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like the man who built his house on the sand. You must be perfect just as your heavenly father is perfect. Do not lay up treasures on earth. Do not be anxious. On judgment day everyone will give an account for every careless word that they speak. If your brother sins, you must rebuke him.

 

Oh, I forgot, ISB. When you tell someone christianity is free, it only works if they don't already know the bible.

 

 

I don't call giving up the right to think for myself and having to see myself as a worthless, useless, fearful, pitiful worm who's only hope lies in Jesus - "free".

[mwc]

2) Historical Evidences. People have been skeptical and scoffed for centuries at God's word and it's truth, but Biblical archeology has proven them wrong time after time.

Depends how you want to define this. For the most part you're wrong. Here's a taste from the official State of Israel website http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_...0and%20Reality:

 

The saga of the Israelites, as told in the Bible, was designed as a morality tale to prove the importance of faith in the One God. The stories of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses and Joshua demonstrate that the Israelites were rewarded when they obeyed God, but were punished when they strayed.

 

The historical evidence to back up these events is sparse, and, in some cases, contradictory. In particular, the account of Joshua's conquest of Canaan is inconsistent with the archaeological evidence. Cities supposedly conquered by Joshua in the 14th century bce were destroyed long before he came on the scene. Some, such as Ai and Arad, had been ruins for a 1000 years.

If the Israelites themselves can accept it, why can't you?

 

3) Prophetical Evidences. Many pinpoint prophecies written hundreds of years before they came to pass, shows God's inspiration on and in His scriptures. Not just written accounts and opinons of men.

Many prophecies were written by many people. Those that "came to pass" were true and kept and others were tossed. Many were too vaque to understand (fortune cookies) and others were simply mis-applied (most every xian "prophesy" about jesus taken from the OT). Similar things happened in most cultures.

 

4) Scientific Evidences. Things written down like hydrological cycle, underwater springs in the ocean, ocean paths or streams, earth suspended in space on nothing, the sphericality of the earth, plus many other evidences. Something they could not have known at the time of writing, shows inspiration.

Yeah...

 

Okay, then, without using the magic of a "vision" or some such explain to me which mountain in the vicinity of the Jordan river I can climb to the top of in order to see all the kingdoms of the world? Keeping in mind that in the 1st century AD we know that there were kingdoms (large ones) established pretty much on all continents. Now, failing that, find me any mountain, real or not, where I can do that. Can't do it? Now do it on a flat earth. Much easier? I thought so. Seems they weren't so up on these things as you want me to believe.

 

The things you mention are all apologetics in motion because if these things are all so obvious we would have went out and made these discoveries and not waited until these discoveries were made to fit the biblical evidence to them (quite some time after the fact). Think about Noah's ark. We *want* to find it and haven't been able to do so despite the efforts made. It's not like we found a boat on a mountain a few hundred years ago and put together some vague references in the bible to support a boat on a mountain and called it Noah's ark in retrospect. That's what all your "evidences" here are.

 

5) Most important of all, on which all truth rests and how it is revealed to us is God Himself. Jesus said, "That man cannot live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from God."

I guess you're saying that the bible is concrete evidence of god?

 

I really don't think that I can give any "case closed" evidence that the God that I believe in is real. God wouldn't allow that - we still have to come to Him by by Faith. Where would the choice be? God doesn't want a bunch of robots that do His will mindlessly.

 

And one of the unique things of the god of Israel was that he revealed himself to the entire nation of Israel at the same time so that they would all have proof of his existance (of course he was simply a volcano but still). This is something the Jews have always loved about their god. That he does prove himself unlike those static pagan idle gods. If it is to solely be by faith then why the "proof" of the bible? Why the "proof" of a solid form jesus? Why the "proof" of anything at all? Anything that is anything is proof. Faith is the absence of proof. Above you are telling me that the substance of god is his word. Essentially the word of god is his proof. Proof is what makes us robots. You are by your own logic a robot since you have that book. Toss the book and function on faith alone. Do not have any association with anyone/anything xian and utilize only the Holy Spirit to sustain you the rest of your days. This is faith alone. Can you take up this challenge and succeed? Is your faith that strong? This is your own definition and test.

 

I think some of you are too intelligent for your own good. Yes it's great to be scholarly and be able to spout off at the little Christian woman who wants to save souls - but are you truly happy with your lack of faith? Are you truly happy living lives putting down the Jesus that you once believed died on the cross to save you from your sins? I guess if you truly believe that He was evil or non existant than you should say the things you are saying. According to you I'm a fool that hasn't seen the light yet . . .

I'm sorry. Your questions simply don't make any sense. When I was growing up I was a consistant under-achiever. Now that I question (even my own mother has said this to me just as you have) I am now too intelligent and such. This is not logical. I won't limit my knowledge to keep my faith. I'll tell you this. One prayer I made consistantly was for wisdom. It was the one prayer I had answered. Your god does not exist.

 

You remind me of Darth Vader "I find your lack of faith disturbing." Right before he starts choking the guy with his mind.

 

Well continue to believe that the world was created by chance - I believe that it came about by the loving and jealous hands of God the Father Our Creator . . .

 

You have a hand full of rocks you throw it over your shoulder it creates a perfect heart on the ground . . . or you have a hand full of rocks and you place the rocks on the ground to create a perfect heart . . . which is easier for you to believe?

Easy doesn't mean a thing. Which is easies to believe. That people are possessed of evil spirits when they are sick or that they are made up of minute particles that you can't see with your naked eye and that there are other minute life forms, that you can't see that invade your body, but not evil spirits, that come into your body and they wage war of sorts and this weakens you and so on. Should I keep going with my childish version of how you get sick? The real version, as you know, is far more complicated and is dependant on many things (what illness you get and so on) but I'm willing to accept that you do not believe that with a cold or flu (at least those two) you do not think an evil spirit flies into you. But people did. And the evil spirit version really is the easier one to believe if you already believe in that sort of thing...but you don't.

 

So your answer as to how the universe came into being is irrelevant. You don't understand biology but you accept the cold/flu reasoning because it sounds reasonable because most every reasonable person you know accepts the answer. You are not a cosmologist but you don't accept the origin of the universe theory because reasonable people you know and trust dispute it. That's all. You are fully aware of the issues with the earth being the center of the universe and all that and how that was silly because those people had "issues" of some sort. That's your rational at least. But it's the same thing. It's the same story being played out. In the future, once the scientific community wins again...because they will win, the church will adjust and this argument will be "silly" to those believers. You will be the equivelent of someone who believed in demons causing colds, or the earth was the center of the universe, or the flat earth. Just look back in time and point out one time where science and church butted heads and the church won out in the end. It hasn't happened and it's never going to happen. God will eventually lose this battle too and the church and future believes will adjust like they have. Like you have and you don't even realize it.

 

What religion other than Christianity is as free? It's been done for me. I don't have to do anything but believe that God came to earth as Jesus and died on the cross to save me from my sins. Yes there is more that I do, but that is out of love - not fear.

Then stop believing. Denounce it all and go apostate.

 

So if there is no God then no evil.

Good and evil and relative terms.

 

 

I suppose you don't believe in Spock either . . .

You do know the difference between fantasy and reality, right? Star Wars, Star Trek, the bible and many more are all works of fiction. So I enjoy watching Star Trek (I'm really a Star Wars fan myself) but, no, I don't believe in Spock. Sorry.

 

mwc

[Checkmate]

What religion other than Christianity is as free?

 

Uh. Right.

.........

I don't call giving up the right to think for myself and having to see myself as a worthless, useless, fearful, pitiful worm who's only hope lies in Jesus - "free".

Ditto. Also, isn't there some "obscure" passage (sarcasm) about either being the slaves of sin or being the SLAVES of righteousness? Since when is being a slave of god (or of anyone) the same as freedom?

 

Slave, servant, bond servant, pick one. You aren't "free". You're under someone's thumb and MUST behave acording to their rules/edicts. "He who keeps my commandments..." Sound familiar? Sound like "freedom" to anyone, except retarded sheep?

 

What a crock of double-talking bullshit!

[Ouroboros]

2) Historical Evidences. People have been skeptical and scoffed for centuries at God's word and it's truth, but Biblical archeology has proven them wrong time after time.

What about Historical Evidence that contradicts God's word?

 

If you have an image of something that kind of could look like Noah's Ark, and at the same time we have remains and archeological findings from cultures born before Adam and Eve, which evidence is stronger?

 

I've read some of these apologist archeology books too. And what is interesting to me today is that it works this way:

 

1. Someone finds anything (sometimes very strong evidence) against the Bible history

And the apologist does the following: claim it is false, explain it with lies, cover it up, claim science if faulty and can't do things, etc.

Ancient Near East time line and Noah's Ark happened somewhere between the 3rd and 2nd century. But no one seemed to notice the flood to destroy their cities in the rest of the world. Even more, some of these cutlures have the same story, but places it much further back in time.

 

2. Someone finds anything that is remotely an evidence to prove the Bible, but could if you're willing to be interpreted as an evidence

Apologists jumps on it and blows out of proportions as the full, complete and totally awesome proof that the bible was true after all.

Like the "wheels" found in the Red Sea after the Exodus (the early fragments of the Exodus story places the crossing in the sea of reeds - no kidding - and that is swamp where you could cross if there would be a dry period. So the miracle is to find the wheels in the wrong place!). Or a pile of dirt suddenly become Tower of Babel. Or a shroud is the evidence of the resurrection.

[Taphophilia]

. . . I'll just say . . . take care and live long and prosper . . . I suppose you don't believe in Spock either . . .

ISB

 

 

I believe that Leonard Nemoy exists and that he was an actor playing the part of Spock. There is concrete evidence to prove that this is true.

 

Taph

[Ouroboros]

Star Trek was a prophetic mythology. Some of the sci-fi technology they used are coming into existence today. A perfect example is the cell phone. And they have "transporter beamed" light in experiments. Warp drive isn't so far off from some space propulsion ideas at all. Or using an anti-matter reactor for energy. I probably could go on if I wanted to, but you get the point. Star Trek is the same kind of "religious" stories that moves us, and foresee the future. It actually does have a message, an hidden message of ideology and life-philosophy, if anyone wonders.

[mwc]

Or a pile of dirt suddenly become Tower of Babel.

Actually, I saw something about the Persian Empire that shows that while it was going quite strong there was a group that built large (maybe 300 feet) mud brick towers that fit the description for the story. The thing they built and rebuilt them because the rain washed them away (not entirely) despite their best efforts (being mostly mud brick and all). The story in the bible would be a good example of someone mocking them for their folly (but with the "god" twist instead of just rain issues).

 

The Persians were unifying the world at the time and there were many languages but state business was done in a single unified language. They also had no state religion and alters were of the type described like those Abraham was to sacrifice his kid on (a simple alter on a mountain top). After seeing all that I could see the Persian Empire as a great backdrop for the whole of that part of the story.

 

mwc

[Purple]

I don't assume anything about any one in here. I don't know you and the only thing you know about me is that I'm still a believer. I'm not a bitch. I'm not arrogant. I am a church lady, but that's not all I am. You don't know how I came to believe. You don't know the things I've read and not read. You want to ban me from the site - go ahead. I probably won't be coming here much more any way it's an extremely depressing place for me . . . I'm not a scholar, a researcher, or any kind of Bible expert. But I do read the Bible. I do go to Sunday School, Study Groups etc.

 

 

 

I think some of you are too intelligent for your own good. Yes it's great to be scholarly and be able to spout off at the little Christian woman who wants to save souls - but are you truly happy with your lack of faith? Are you truly happy living lives putting down the Jesus that you once believed died on the cross to save you from your sins? I guess if you truly believe that He was evil or non existant than you should say the things you are saying. According to you I'm a fool that hasn't seen the light yet . . .

 

 

 

What religion other than Christianity is as free? It's been done for me. I don't have to do anything but believe that God came to earth as Jesus and died on the cross to save me from my sins. Yes there is more that I do, but that is out of love - not fear.

 

You're right I don't completely understand the people in this forum and how they have reached their conclusions about Christianity. I can only try to understand from my own perspective how it would be for me if I had to give up my faith. Are there things I would do if I were not a Christian? I don't think so, so I'm not imagining any evil lifestyle that any of you are living.

 

I'm sure most of you do lead lives that you are proud of. But to me evil is anything that separates me from my God. Anything that takes my focus away from Him. That is evil to me and so yes I can say that what the majority of people are doing here is evil according to the Christian faith. But you're not Christians any more so I'm very sorry that offends you. As non believers I wouldn't think you'd care. It's not what I say that matters anyway. It's what God says (if you believe) If you don't then . . . I guess I wouldn't worry about someone calling you evil. Evil has been watered down to mean bad, but really it is a word that means sinful which is a word that describes something you do against God. So if there is no God then no evil.

 

There is bad however and the name calling is bad and mean. So yes I am sorry for saying that any of you are evil because I truly don't want to be a bad person. I don't want to sound arrogant so I'm sorry if that's the way I sound. When you believe as deeply as I do I guess that is just the way it comes out. I truly believe in the Lord because He is real for me. I can't imagine my life with out Him and I wouldn't want to live a life without Him. He has answered my prayers many times. He has spoken to me through others, through things that have happened to me, so yes I do believe. Can I prove it to you? No, I can't. Do I wish I could - maybe - but I'm not trying to win any brownie points - I should if I were a better Christian I guess - a more evangelistic one - but I'm only a Baptist Secretary - I'm a member of a Presbyterian church where we believe people need to come to there only conclusions - we just need to be open with the truth of what we believe. I can pray for you but then you wouldn't want that either so . . . I'll just say . . . take care and live long and prosper . . . I suppose you don't believe in Spock either . . .

 

ISB

 

 

ISB, I am not going to respond to your 5 points, others here can do that even better than I. I am going to say this, to your first paragraph, go back, yourself and read your first post, it is full of assumptions about us, how we came to these conclusions, because people let us down, and how we think God did. Now you are saying well I don't know you adn I don't know why, ok, great, thats a good place to start, you're rgith you do not know me, or why I left Christianity, so, don't speculate, there si no need to do any speculation, I wrote it all out, in the testimony section of this forum.

 

I have been hearing the "too smart for your own good" thing since I was 12, it's a BS line that means nothing. It's not possible, I think, you think we all think. Some of us here are very smart, and it's lead those people at least in part to leave xianity. Not all of the real brains here are atheists though.

 

What religion, other than xianity is free? Um, all of them? I have never, in my studies of other faiths ever been charged so much in time, guilt and an overall disrespect fo my person than ni Christianty. It having been done for you is not freedom, it is the oppisite of freedom, a lion in the zoo has everything done for him, he is kept healthy, and has no competition for food, and he doesn't even have to hunt it, ni exchange he loses all of his freedom. A lion in the wild must work hard for his own livign, but that is the free lion. Which leads me back to yoo are too smart for your own good line, do you which kinds of animals are the hardest to keep in captivity? The smartest ones. The smarter the animal the less likely they are to be accepting of captivity. Well ok, that and great white sharks, but that's a horse of a different color.

 

Well, thank you for not assuming I am living in unabashed evil, or assuming I am not a Christian cuz I love to sin SO much. The thing is, are you really trying to understand? Do you actaully care? See my other post to you here, I am sorry if you feel I am judging you, but from your behavior here I do not think you care about the individuals here at all. You will never understand "us" if we remain an "us" to you. Non-chrisitan is not a group label you can slap on people and expect to understand them as a whole. We did not all leave for the same reasons, and we do not now all believe the same things.

 

But to me evil is anything that separates me from my God. Anything that takes my focus away from Him. That is evil to me and so yes I can say that what the majority of people are doing here is evil according to the Christian faith. But you're not Christians any more so I'm very sorry that offends you. As non believers I wouldn't think you'd care. It's not what I say that matters anyway.

 

Why do I care? Because believes and thoughts become actions. If you believe and think all outside of your faith are evil, you can begin to dehumanize them, once you do that you can demonize them, and at that point good, god fearing Christian people can comit the most henous acts against other people. THAT'S why I care! I am NOT evil, no I do not believe in your definition of God, and you know what, you do not believe in mine, but I am not calling YOU evil. I am not going well, ..... anything that seperates you form Sulis Minerva is evil, so you are evil. Maybe you wouldn't care, cuz you do not believe in Sulis Minerva, but do you see how if a large group that believed in her, decided all that believe differently are evil could make peopel a wee bit nervous? That is why I ask the love question, it is terrifing to me how many Christians believe all that do not believe in their god cannot love. That all mothers, you said you were just a simple mother right? Okay I've been told that I do not, and could not love my children as much, as well, and in the same way as a Chrisitan. Why? because without god I am evil and incapable of a good act. But you say why should I care, because that kind of thinking, justifies all manner of hate. It makes me a second class citizen who cannot even love.

 

Your last paragraph would be fine if it wasn't for what came before it. You are sorry you called us evil, but... you believe we are. I'm sorry, but that's a sideways apology at best. When you realise I am not evil, that I am just another human being, just another simple wife, mother adn possession, come talk to me. When you can take a step back and realise you're not addressing a group of like minded people, but a group where complete individuals come to recover from a similar bad experiance, come talk to me. Until then though, until you are speaking to me, and others in truth, care and as individuals you are just full of hot air, and being in a california desert in July I have enough hot air TYVM.

[Young Mother Atheist]

' date='Jun 27 2006, 10:33 AM' post='191456']

Many people here are angry, cruel, hateful, and just plain scared to search any more. They have done evil in the site of the Lord and now they're desperate to believe that they are right.

 

If I was too scared to search, I wouldn't have left Christianity, what with its threat of hell and all. But I was brave and searched. I knew the other side and looked at the other. I searched, and still do, for truth.

 

All I can speak of is what God has done for me. I believe in the truth of the Bible. You all say I disrespect where you are coming from . . . I don't even know you people. I'm not assuming anything about what you have been through, what you know, and how you've come to know it.

Didn't you just assume that we were scared to search for truth? Didn't you just assume that we all sinned and so we are trying to justify our sins instead of following God? Don't speak out of two sides of your mouth.

 

You disrespect me and where I'm coming from. I'm not here to try to tell you all what the Bible says and what it doesn't say. You're all capable of picking up the book again if the moment strikes you. Why am I here? I guess out of curiosity as to what type of people would create and visit a sight for ex-Christians.

 

Dear, I think many of us pick up the Bible often and read it. We reference it on here quite a bit. I actually just finished reading the book of Mark AGAIN. Again, you assume as you said you don't.

 

Why do I come back? Someone here said I can't save someone who has committed apostacy. That's probably true - I'll have to research that one. But possibly there are others here reading who have fallen into this web of hatred who might be saved by my words.

 

You don't even know about something that pivitol that is in your belief system? And you are 40 something? And you are trying to save people?[/color]

 

You're a slave to sin or you are a slave to God. Take your choice.

 

I am a slave to TRUTH. Actually, Jesus said the Truth would set us free. So because I believe in truth, I don't have to be a slave! Hey, that's better than being Jesus' slave or sin's slave! WOW! And Jesus even said it was ok.

 

Why has the Word of God survived as long as it has for so long with out someone "proving" that it was all a lie? Prove me wrong - people here are good at throwing insults, but they can't "PROVE" to me that Christianity is a lie.

 

You don't have to prove something is a lie for people to have doubts about its veracity. Do you believe in unicorns, elves, faires, the boogey monster, the easter bunny? There are stories about them out there passed down for probably as long as the Bible stories have been, but most people don't believe in those things. However, they haven't been TOTALLY DISPROVED.

 

Again, I've returned here out of a desire to help doubters of the Christianity faith to stay strong, and hopeful and to continue to reach for the truth.

 

Anyone here is reaching for the truth. Anyone who hasn't already converted will only get support in their questioning. They ask a question, we answer it as best as we can with information from either side (though most people already know the Christian side, so it is more generally a presentation of the other side that people show).

 

JOY - Jesus 1st, Others 2nd, Yourself 3rd. It's a prescription that works. That heals. People here say that I've got blinders on, that I've been brainwashed, etc. I haven't . . . I continue to search, I'm not afraid to search deeper - and not just the Bible. Be open to all resources - but just continue to search until you find it.

 

As a psychology student, I find this mode of thought to be very damaging for individuals. If you don't take care of yourself first, you are not capable to take care of or care for other people first. This is exactly why many Christians that I have met have low self-esteem or are always struggling with identity issues. They also overcommit themselves instead of setting boundaries. This idea of putting Jesus and others needs before one's own is a quick spiral to self-decay and many, many personal problems. Be careful. It could happen to you.

 

 

I really don't think that I can give any "case closed" evidence that the God that I believe in is real. God wouldn't allow that - we still have to come to Him by by Faith. Where would the choice be? God doesn't want a bunch of robots that do His will mindlessly.

 

Honey, faith IS mindless following. It is setting your mind aside to believe in something. Coming to God without faith would actually be a better use of the skills HE supposedly gave us to think and reason.

 

I think some of you are too intelligent for your own good.

 

Well take that one up with God. I was MADE this way.

 

Yes it's great to be scholarly and be able to spout off at the little Christian woman who wants to save souls - but are you truly happy with your lack of faith? Are you truly happy living lives putting down the Jesus that you once believed died on the cross to save you from your sins? I guess if you truly believe that He was evil or non existant than you should say the things you are saying.

 

I am happy with my lack of faith in Jesus. I ardently followed him, lived for him, served him, and prayed to him for a long time. I am just as content with my life now, actually more so, than I was following Jesus. I don't have anything personal against the figure of Jesus, but I just believe him to be a myth equivalent with all the other myths out there that I don't follow.

 

Well continue to believe that the world was created by chance - I believe that it came about by the loving and jealous hands of God the Father Our Creator . . .

 

I don't believe the world was created by chance. Actually, I am content to not EVER know how the Earth was created and just hypothesize. I don't need answers about the world to feel secure about the path I am choosing.

 

 

What religion other than Christianity is as free?

 

But you just said it was slavery...?

 

You're right I don't completely understand the people in this forum and how they have reached their conclusions about Christianity. I can only try to understand from my own perspective how it would be for me if I had to give up my faith. Are there things I would do if I were not a Christian? I don't think so, so I'm not imagining any evil lifestyle that any of you are living.

 

That's good. Because I pretty much live the same way as I did when I was a Christian, minus the religious practice. I actually think I am more compassionate towards people and more humble now than when I was a Christian because I don't have my head in the Bible every two seconds.

 

I'm sure most of you do lead lives that you are proud of. But to me evil is anything that separates me from my God. Anything that takes my focus away from Him. That is evil to me and so yes I can say that what the majority of people are doing here is evil according to the Christian faith. But you're not Christians any more so I'm very sorry that offends you. As non believers I wouldn't think you'd care. It's not what I say that matters anyway. It's what God says (if you believe) If you don't then . . . I guess I wouldn't worry about someone calling you evil. Evil has been watered down to mean bad, but really it is a word that means sinful which is a word that describes something you do against God. So if there is no God then no evil.

 

I don't believe in "sin". I don't believe in absolute right and wrong. I used to think, when I was a Christian, that sin was anything we did that God told us not to. Therefore, I thought only people that knew what God wanted to could actually "sin". But, eventually, this changed because I allowed myself to think and read the Bible without doctrine. If evil is anything that separates us from God, then the traits of thinking, reasoning, and logic that God gave me are what separate me from Him. You might want to talk to Him about that. He shouldn't hand us gifts and then tell us not to use them. You know the spiritual gift of discernment? Yeah, I feel like I use that gift all the time. That's what got me here.

[Asimov]

1) Indestructibility Evidences. For centuries powerful people and even nations have attempted to destroy God's word and its truth, but here it stand just as Christ said it would.

 

2) Historical Evidences. People have been skeptical and scoffed for centuries at God's word and it's truth, but Biblical archeology has proven them wrong time after time.

 

3) Prophetical Evidences. Many pinpoint prophecies written hundreds of years before they came to pass, shows God's inspiration on and in His scriptures. Not just written accounts and opinons of men.

 

4) Scientific Evidences. Things written down like hydrological cycle, underwater springs in the ocean, ocean paths or streams, earth suspended in space on nothing, the sphericality of the earth, plus many other evidences. Something they could not have known at the time of writing, shows inspiration.

 

You're gonna have to do a bit better than just making bullshit claims like that, ISB.

 

5) Most important of all, on which all truth rests and how it is revealed to us is God Himself. Jesus said, "That man cannot live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from God."

 

I don't live by bread alone. I also eat steak, chicken, cheese, veggies, fruits.

 

I really don't think that I can give any "case closed" evidence that the God that I believe in is real. God wouldn't allow that - we still have to come to Him by by Faith. Where would the choice be? God doesn't want a bunch of robots that do His will mindlessly.

 

Where would the choice be? That doesn't even make any sense.

 

What religion other than Christianity is as free?

 

My belief system is more free than any.

[Mythra]

I don't live by bread alone. I also eat steak, chicken, cheese, veggies, fruits.

 

WTF? No pizza? Ya gawddamn food heretic.

[Lycorth]

What religion other than Christianity is as free?

 

As free as Xianity? None; aside from perhaps Is-lame and Judaism, all other religions are more free than Xianity. "Freedom" isn't defined by following a bunch of bullshit rules and buying into the hype of Jeezus'™ "liberating" sacrifice.

 

And yes, pizza is utterly necessary. That, and those little Soft Batch cookies from Keebler. My computer desk isn't complete without a jar of 'em to my immediate right.

[Guest Istillbelieve]

I do care about the people here - as much as I would care for any person that I don't know who is drowning in a river and won't grab hold of the log that I'm holding out for them. It's sad for me to see the way faith has turned to bitterness and sarcasim.

 

Oh you mean Spock isn't real. People here can't even take a joke. But then you're right this isn't a matter to joke about - so I'm sorry for trying to lighten things up a bit. There will be no more words from me to you . . . I'll just say a prayer and watch you float away down the river.

 

I Still Believe

[Guest JP]

There will be no more words from me to you . . . I'll just say a prayer and watch you float away down the river.

 

I Still Believe

 

Get off your high horse. Guess what? Your shit stinks too, so don't act like you're all better than anyone here just because you're a Christian.

[Lycorth]

You're being awfully smug, you know.

 

I do care about the people here - as much as I would care for any person that I don't know who is drowning in a river and won't grab hold of the log that I'm holding out for them.

 

Funny, that's how we view you.

 

In all seriousness, what river? We're fine in how we believe - I know I am. I am more at peace in my heart and soul keeping an open mind about religious and spiritual matters than I ever was as a Xian. I am more at peace in exploring the ways of my ancestors, and more than happy with their spirituality. Gimme that old-time religion, indeed

 

It's sad for me to see the way faith has turned to bitterness and sarcasim.

 

The only "bitterness" you see is the natural reaction we have to something cruel, wrong, and oppressive. I know you don't see it like that, but the facts are that we see Xianity as a cruel, oppressive, ugly cult, full of mindgames and unnatural demands - all hinging around the terror of eternal punishment. No person who understands that can react in any way other than bitter.

 

Are you not angry at things such as Nazism or Communism? Oppressive regimes which treat people with cruelty and hang the fear of heavy retribution over their heads? Well, we see Xianity as being that - a spiritual Nazism or Communism, complete with an eternal gulag and everlasting holocaust for all those your dictator deems "undesirable." See what I mean?

 

And sarcasm - that's just our dazzling wit at work It's fun to lampoon the "lofty" and "holy" concepts and attitudes of Xianity, now that we know there's no eternal suffering waiting for us for having minds of our own.

 

Oh you mean Spock isn't real. People here can't even take a joke. But then you're right this isn't a matter to joke about - so I'm sorry for trying to lighten things up a bit. There will be no more words from me to you . . . I'll just say a prayer and watch you float away down the river.

 

If you want to run, go ahead. If you can't defend your slavecult and understand that we will not capitulate to the dictator you call Jeezus™, then you are free to go. You are the one who came here, tried to trick us, and you expect fuzzy bunnies?

 

You can float away down your own river into your imaginary Hell™. And save your prayers for yourself - you evidently are in need of something higher and better than what you have now.

[Young Mother Atheist]

And save your prayers for yourself - you evidently are in need of something higher and better than what you have now.

 

Agreed. You didn't come here to help anyone. If you did, you would stick through it and actually talk to us and be open to learning something yourself since you expect us to. You are obviously insecure about yourself or you wouldn't take our criticism of Christianity so seriously. I hope that you start to see things in a new light and that you'll quit telling other people how they should live until you do.