Fweethawt Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Pastor Declares Kneeling A Sin Since Vatican revised instruction on Mass, the argument over kneeling for blessings has arisen. David Haldane / Los Angeles Times FROM HERE At a small Catholic church south of Los Angeles, the pressing moral question comes to this: Does kneeling at the wrong time during worship make you a sinner? Kneeling "is clearly rebellion, grave disobedience and mortal sin," Father Martin Tran, pastor at St. Mary's by the Sea, in Huntington Beach, Calif., told his flock in a recent church bulletin. The Diocese of Orange backs Tran's anti-kneeling edict. While told by the pastor and the archdiocese to stand during certain parts of the liturgy, a third of the congregation still gets on its knees every Sunday. "Kneeling is an act of adoration," said Judith M. Clark, 68, one of at least 55 parishioners who have received letters from church leaders urging them to get off their knees or quit St. Mary's and the Diocese of Orange. "You almost automatically kneel because you're so used to it. Now the priest says we should stand, we … ignore him." The debate is being played out in at least a dozen U.S. parishes. Since at least the seventh century, Catholics have been kneeling following the Agnus Dei, the point during Mass when the priest holds up the chalice and consecrated bread and says, "Behold the lamb of God." But four years ago, the Vatican revised its instructions, allowing bishops to decide at some points in the Mass whether their flocks should get on their knees. The debate is part of the argument among Catholics between tradition and change. Traditionalists see it as the ultimate posture of submission to and adoration of God; modernists view kneeling as the vestige of a feudal past. At the center of the controversy is the church's concept of Christ, said Jesuit Father Lawrence J. Madden, director of the Georgetown Center for Liturgy at Georgetown University in Washington. Because the earliest Christians viewed Christ as God and man, Madden said, they generally stood during worship services to show reverence and equality. About the seventh century, however, Catholic theologians put more emphasis on Christ's divinity and introduced kneeling as the only appropriate posture at points in the Mass when God was believed to be present. Things started to change in the 1960s, Madden said, when Vatican II began moving the church back to its earliest roots. The most controversial point involves the Agnus Dei. Traditionalists argue the faithful must then fall to their knees in awe for several minutes, believing that the bread and wine are literally the body and blood of Christ. Orange County parishioners are allowed to kneel at other points in the Mass, including the Eucharistic prayers. Kneeling is optional when receiving communion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrisonjj Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Pastor Declares Kneeling A Sin Since Vatican revised instruction on Mass, the argument over kneeling for blessings has arisen. David Haldane / Los Angeles Times FROM HERE At a small Catholic church south of Los Angeles, the pressing moral question comes to this: Does kneeling at the wrong time during worship make you a sinner? Kneeling "is clearly rebellion, grave disobedience and mortal sin," Father Martin Tran, pastor at St. Mary's by the Sea, in Huntington Beach, Calif., told his flock in a recent church bulletin. The Diocese of Orange backs Tran's anti-kneeling edict. While told by the pastor and the archdiocese to stand during certain parts of the liturgy, a third of the congregation still gets on its knees every Sunday. "Kneeling is an act of adoration," said Judith M. Clark, 68, one of at least 55 parishioners who have received letters from church leaders urging them to get off their knees or quit St. Mary's and the Diocese of Orange. "You almost automatically kneel because you're so used to it. Now the priest says we should stand, we … ignore him." The debate is being played out in at least a dozen U.S. parishes. Since at least the seventh century, Catholics have been kneeling following the Agnus Dei, the point during Mass when the priest holds up the chalice and consecrated bread and says, "Behold the lamb of God." But four years ago, the Vatican revised its instructions, allowing bishops to decide at some points in the Mass whether their flocks should get on their knees. The debate is part of the argument among Catholics between tradition and change. Traditionalists see it as the ultimate posture of submission to and adoration of God; modernists view kneeling as the vestige of a feudal past. At the center of the controversy is the church's concept of Christ, said Jesuit Father Lawrence J. Madden, director of the Georgetown Center for Liturgy at Georgetown University in Washington. Because the earliest Christians viewed Christ as God and man, Madden said, they generally stood during worship services to show reverence and equality. About the seventh century, however, Catholic theologians put more emphasis on Christ's divinity and introduced kneeling as the only appropriate posture at points in the Mass when God was believed to be present. Things started to change in the 1960s, Madden said, when Vatican II began moving the church back to its earliest roots. The most controversial point involves the Agnus Dei. Traditionalists argue the faithful must then fall to their knees in awe for several minutes, believing that the bread and wine are literally the body and blood of Christ. Orange County parishioners are allowed to kneel at other points in the Mass, including the Eucharistic prayers. Kneeling is optional when receiving communion. Christ almighty and this comes from an ex catholic who worked very hard at making religion work! No wonder the church is falling apart! Closing schools and parishes, pedofile priests, no vocations, and spend time on whether its a fuckin mortal sin whether you kneel, stand or fuck the person next to you in the pew! Makes me more and more proud to call myself an atheist! Pastor Declares Kneeling A Sin Since Vatican revised instruction on Mass, the argument over kneeling for blessings has arisen. David Haldane / Los Angeles Times FROM HERE At a small Catholic church south of Los Angeles, the pressing moral question comes to this: Does kneeling at the wrong time during worship make you a sinner? Kneeling "is clearly rebellion, grave disobedience and mortal sin," Father Martin Tran, pastor at St. Mary's by the Sea, in Huntington Beach, Calif., told his flock in a recent church bulletin. The Diocese of Orange backs Tran's anti-kneeling edict. While told by the pastor and the archdiocese to stand during certain parts of the liturgy, a third of the congregation still gets on its knees every Sunday. "Kneeling is an act of adoration," said Judith M. Clark, 68, one of at least 55 parishioners who have received letters from church leaders urging them to get off their knees or quit St. Mary's and the Diocese of Orange. "You almost automatically kneel because you're so used to it. Now the priest says we should stand, we … ignore him." The debate is being played out in at least a dozen U.S. parishes. Since at least the seventh century, Catholics have been kneeling following the Agnus Dei, the point during Mass when the priest holds up the chalice and consecrated bread and says, "Behold the lamb of God." But four years ago, the Vatican revised its instructions, allowing bishops to decide at some points in the Mass whether their flocks should get on their knees. The debate is part of the argument among Catholics between tradition and change. Traditionalists see it as the ultimate posture of submission to and adoration of God; modernists view kneeling as the vestige of a feudal past. At the center of the controversy is the church's concept of Christ, said Jesuit Father Lawrence J. Madden, director of the Georgetown Center for Liturgy at Georgetown University in Washington. Because the earliest Christians viewed Christ as God and man, Madden said, they generally stood during worship services to show reverence and equality. About the seventh century, however, Catholic theologians put more emphasis on Christ's divinity and introduced kneeling as the only appropriate posture at points in the Mass when God was believed to be present. Things started to change in the 1960s, Madden said, when Vatican II began moving the church back to its earliest roots. The most controversial point involves the Agnus Dei. Traditionalists argue the faithful must then fall to their knees in awe for several minutes, believing that the bread and wine are literally the body and blood of Christ. Orange County parishioners are allowed to kneel at other points in the Mass, including the Eucharistic prayers. Kneeling is optional when receiving communion. Christ almighty and this comes from an ex catholic who worked very hard at making religion work! No wonder the church is falling apart! Closing schools and parishes, pedofile priests, no vocations, and spend time on whether its a fuckin mortal sin whether you kneel, stand or fuck the person next to you in the pew! Makes me more and more proud to call myself an atheist! God fucking damnit! I read it again and can't believe this is such a big fuckin deal! How absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted June 24, 2006 Author Share Posted June 24, 2006 God fucking damnit! I read it again and can't believe this is such a big fuckin deal! How absurd. Dude, calm down. It's not a big deal. It's quite stupid, but it's not a big deal. You missed this part: The debate is being played out in at least a dozen U.S. parishes. Just around a dozen churches and that's it. So far. Hell, I have a dozen churches within five minutes in any direction of my house. I don't even want to know how many churches there are across the whole country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 What about people who can't kneel do they go to hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 No Willy, it is the opposite. The ones that kneel go to Hell. They call it a "mortal sin" to kneel at the wrong time. Very cool. Should go in there and kneel when everyone stands up, stand up when everone sits down, and sit down when everyone stands up. That would confuse them. Will I go to a lower level of Dante's Hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 That's weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts