Question About Sabbaths

[mwc]

I need some help on the various "flavors" of days that might be called a "sabbath."

 

I know about "sabbath" (obviously).

 

I also now have "Yom Tov" which appears to be about the same except some of the restrictions, like cooking, are lifted and "Chol HaMoed" which is an even more relaxed variation which is basically a mid-week "feast day."

 

The question I'm having is could these last two, at any point, be considered a "shabbat" or sabbath? I haven't seen the terms in the bible so I imagine they came about later so did they consider all days of a feast week to be "sabbaths" but recognize the various level of restrictions or maybe all days were equally restricted and later became less restricted? There must be a reason that these variations now exist and it's usually because a stricter form came before (ie. all days of a feast were a sabbath).

 

The reason I'm asking is, in case you haven't guessed, because these restrictions keep people from grieving a person today until after the feast is completed. Yom Tov is the first and last night of Passover (two sabbaths?) from what I can find with the intervening days being the Chol HaMoed. If this is the case today, and if it's a holdover from a more restricted period, then there's no way that anyone would have been able to go to the tomb, or begin ritual mourning, until after the 2nd Yom Tov, or the last day of Passover without breaking the law and becoming unclean for the entire rest of the festival. So doing anything, at all with jesus, on the 3rd day is simply unthinkable during Passover festival week.

 

I suppose they could make it up during the Second Passover (it does exist) but the story/stories don't seem to hint at this plan. The Epistle of Barnabas (I think) says he rose on the 8th day which makes sense in light of these ideas. This would also prove the texts were all "altered" since they could not have eaten Seder and then have jesus crucified the next day on a "sabbath."

 

So does anyone have any better insight into all of this? I've found a lot of conflicting information but it does seem to me that all the days of a festival might have been considered a sabbath at one point.

 

mwc

[Grandpa Harley]

Can't help, old thing... sorry...

[NotBlinded]

I have read something about that...I just have to remember where. I'm thinking it was in a Judaic mysticism book I got from the library (and I could be totally mistaken).

 

I'll have to get back to you.

 

Jesus was supposedly crucified during passover and removed before sunset because the Sabbath began at that time.

 

Nope, I can't help you either.

 

I did find one site that says that those days of Chol HaMoed are more or less free days and some work is permitted. link

 

 

Ohh...I did find this on Wiki about the unveiling of a headstone which seems to hint that there are restrictions about the dead on those days:

 

A headstone (tombstone) is known as a matzevah ("monument"). There are varying customs about when it should be placed at the head of the grave. Most communities have an unveiling ceremony a year after the death. Some communities have it earlier, even a week after the burial. In Israel it is done after the "sheloshim", the first thirty days of mourning. There is no restriction about the timing, other than the unveiling cannot be held during certain periods such as Passover or Chol Ha'Moed.

link

 

 

I don't know if this site would help you or not, but it mentions ancient rituals that the Dead Sea scrolls sheds light on: New Light on an Ancient Ritual

 

hehe...lots of edits here. I'm learning as I go, thanks to you again!

 

The gospel of John has Jesus being crucified directly before the Passover festival, whereas, Matthew and Luke have the last supper as the Passover meal. Wiki does say that some scholars say that they are harmonious with each other. I don't know how though.

 

Come post again when you find more info.

[mwc]

There are obviously quite a few issues with the timing in the story itself. One of those does concern removing the body for the Sabbath but most people tie that to the weekly sabbath. Now that I've spent quite a bit of time reading the story I'm convinced it is not but rather a Yom Tov, or the 1st day of Passover (I know what the text says outright but I'm saying otherwise). If this is the case this means that they couldn't start shiva, or public mourning, until after the 2nd Yom Tov, a week later (from what I understand his immediate family possibly could but not the others...I haven't looked too deeply). Both Yom Tov's would be known as shabbat's (sabbath's) but cooking would be allowed (for the feast).

 

Someone who was unaware of this tradition would assume the sabbath mentioned was the weekly sabbath and have the resurrection happen on the first of the week for no good reason.

 

mwc

[NotBlinded]

There are obviously quite a few issues with the timing in the story itself. One of those does concern removing the body for the Sabbath but most people tie that to the weekly sabbath. Now that I've spent quite a bit of time reading the story I'm convinced it is not but rather a Yom Tov, or the 1st day of Passover (I know what the text says outright but I'm saying otherwise). If this is the case this means that they couldn't start shiva, or public mourning, until after the 2nd Yom Tov, a week later (from what I understand his immediate family possibly could but not the others...I haven't looked too deeply). Both Yom Tov's would be known as shabbat's (sabbath's) but cooking would be allowed (for the feast).

 

Someone who was unaware of this tradition would assume the sabbath mentioned was the weekly sabbath and have the resurrection happen on the first of the week for no good reason.

 

mwc

You know, I hope you stick around here a long time mwc. We'll all be scholars following you around!

[NotBlinded]

It seems this guys has thought about that also...he's just a fundamental Christian. He says there are two Sabbaths.

 

Maybe what he says can give you something to go on:

 

According to tradition, Jesus was crucified on a Friday. Some translations accordingly interpret "a preparation day had really been a Friday. But there are obvious inconsistencies in the traditional interpretation. If Jesus had been crucified on a Friday, it would be scripturally impossible for Him to have been resurrected on a Sunday morning. The time extending from Friday evening at sunset to Sunday morning at sunrise is simply not three days and three nights, no matter how one might seek to justify the traditional view. Many scholars insist that the period of darkness from the sixth hour to the ninth hour can be counted as the first night in the tomb. But the truth is that Jesus was not in the tomb during this period of darkness, but on the cross, and alive. He did not die until the ninth hour? To count this period of darkness as a night in the tomb is a gross stretching of the imagination to justify a tradition which is not scriptural. If Jesus had not been in the tomb for precisely three days and three nights, He would not be the Messiah. The three days and three nights in the tomb was the only sign He gave to show that He was the Messiah. Those who deny this sign by clinging to mythical traditions are in fact rejecting Jesus Himself as their Messiah and Savior! What then is the proper understanding of this time period?

 

Luke tells us, "And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment" (Luke 23:55-56). According to Scripture, a Sabbath began shortly after the tomb was sealed. It would not have been possible for them to purchase the spices, return home and prepare them in the few minutes left before the Sabbath began. Furthermore, none of the businesses from which they could purchase spices would have been open. All businesses normally closed for the Sabbath at the ninth hour of a preparation day, or 3 p.m. This was the exact hour when Jesus died (Matthew 27:46-50). The women could not buy spices until the stores reopened after the Sabbath. Mark 16:1 plainly says, "And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought spices, that they might come and anoint him." It is clearly a fact that they bought the spices after the Sabbath.

 

Putting the two Gospel accounts together, it would have been impossible for them to purchase the spices after the Sabbath, and then to prepare them before the Sabbath, and rest on the same Sabbath. The conclusion is inescapable. There were two Sabbaths that week, and when properly harmonized, everything fits in place.

 

John says of the day following the Passover, "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the Sabbath day (for that Sabbath was an high day) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away" (John 19:31). The Sabbath after the Passover was a high day, or a holy day -- an annual Sabbath. The only Sabbath that immediately follows the Passover, and is a holy day, is the First Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread! This annual Sabbath is totally separate from and in addition to the weekly Sabbath.

 

 

The book of Luke carries on with the chronology at this point. Here is my translation of this part. "After he [Joseph of Arimathaea] had gone to Pilate, [he] requested the body of Jesus. And after he had taken it down, he wrapped it in fine linen cloth, and placed it in a tomb hewn in the side of a rock, in which no one had ever been laid. And it was a preparation day, and a Sabbath [the first annual holy day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread] was approaching at sundown. And the women also, who came with him out of Galilee, followed along and saw the tomb, and how his body was laid, and then returned" (Luke 23:52-55). When this was originally written in Greek, Luke did not use the definite article "the" for "preparation day" and "Sabbath". At this point Mark continues the story. "And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid. And after the Sabbath was past [the first holy day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread], Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought aromatics and spices, that they might anoint him" (Mark 15:47-16:1). Luke continues, "And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments [on the day following the holy day Sabbath]; and on the [weekly] Sabbath they rested according to the commandment" (Luke 23:56). In the Greek, in verse 56 the definite article "the" is used with "Sabbath," showing that this Sabbath was the weekly Sabbath. However, in verse 54 Luke was inspired to write "a preparation day, and a Sabbath," making a difference between the two Sabbaths, further verifying that there were two Sabbaths in the week Jesus was crucified.

Link

 

He goes on to say that Jesus would have had to have been executed on Wednesday.

[mwc]

Thanks for the link/info. I've heard similar arguments before based on the quick scan I've given it just now.

 

I wanted to point out the following objection that he notes about the women getting spices for jesus:

Luke tells us, "And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment" (Luke 23:55-56). According to Scripture, a Sabbath began shortly after the tomb was sealed. It would not have been possible for them to purchase the spices, return home and prepare them in the few minutes left before the Sabbath began. Furthermore, none of the businesses from which they could purchase spices would have been open. All businesses normally closed for the Sabbath at the ninth hour of a preparation day, or 3 p.m. This was the exact hour when Jesus died (Matthew 27:46-50). The women could not buy spices until the stores reopened after the Sabbath. Mark 16:1 plainly says, "And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought spices, that they might come and anoint him." It is clearly a fact that they bought the spices after the Sabbath.

 

Putting the two Gospel accounts together, it would have been impossible for them to purchase the spices after the Sabbath, and then to prepare them before the Sabbath, and rest on the same Sabbath. The conclusion is inescapable. There were two Sabbaths that week, and when properly harmonized, everything fits in place.

 

Now I want everyone to make note of this quote from G.Mark:

14:3 And while he was in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, seated at table, there came a woman with a bottle of perfumed oil of great price; and when the bottle was broken she put the perfume on his head. 4 But some of them were angry among themselves, saying, For what purpose has this oil been wasted? 5 We might have got more than three hundred pence for it, and given the money to the poor. And they said things against her among themselves. 6 But Jesus said, Let her be; why are you troubling her? she has done a kind act to me. 7 The poor you have ever with you, and whenever you have the desire you may do them good: but me you have not for ever. 8 She has done what she was able: she has put oil on my body to make it ready for its last resting-place. 9 And truly I say to you, Wherever the good news goes out through all the earth, what this woman has done will be talked of in memory of her.

Make a special note of the bold portions. Jesus claims his body has already been made ready for burial. Anything that the two Mary's (and any other women) do later on is redundant. This section undermines the whole of their actions.

 

mwc

[NotBlinded]

Thanks for the link/info. I've heard similar arguments before based on the quick scan I've given it just now.

 

I wanted to point out the following objection that he notes about the women getting spices for jesus:

Luke tells us, "And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment" (Luke 23:55-56). According to Scripture, a Sabbath began shortly after the tomb was sealed. It would not have been possible for them to purchase the spices, return home and prepare them in the few minutes left before the Sabbath began. Furthermore, none of the businesses from which they could purchase spices would have been open. All businesses normally closed for the Sabbath at the ninth hour of a preparation day, or 3 p.m. This was the exact hour when Jesus died (Matthew 27:46-50). The women could not buy spices until the stores reopened after the Sabbath. Mark 16:1 plainly says, "And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought spices, that they might come and anoint him." It is clearly a fact that they bought the spices after the Sabbath.

 

Putting the two Gospel accounts together, it would have been impossible for them to purchase the spices after the Sabbath, and then to prepare them before the Sabbath, and rest on the same Sabbath. The conclusion is inescapable. There were two Sabbaths that week, and when properly harmonized, everything fits in place.

 

Now I want everyone to make note of this quote from G.Mark:

14:3 And while he was in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, seated at table, there came a woman with a bottle of perfumed oil of great price; and when the bottle was broken she put the perfume on his head. 4 But some of them were angry among themselves, saying, For what purpose has this oil been wasted? 5 We might have got more than three hundred pence for it, and given the money to the poor. And they said things against her among themselves. 6 But Jesus said, Let her be; why are you troubling her? she has done a kind act to me. 7 The poor you have ever with you, and whenever you have the desire you may do them good: but me you have not for ever. 8 She has done what she was able: she has put oil on my body to make it ready for its last resting-place. 9 And truly I say to you, Wherever the good news goes out through all the earth, what this woman has done will be talked of in memory of her.

Make a special note of the bold portions. Jesus claims his body has already been made ready for burial. Anything that the two Mary's (and any other women) do later on is redundant. This section undermines the whole of their actions.

 

mwc

Well, that just makes him twice as slick as anyone else! (Yes, that was bad...)

[DarthOkkata]

Wikkipedia is a great place to go for 'what is' questions like this.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_%28disambiguation%29

 

There are a number of links at the top of the page that describe sabbaths for different cults.

[mwc]

Unfortunately Wikipedia hasn't been too much help in this matter. It has given me quite a bit of information that is fairly relevant in the modern religion but I can't say if that information was applicable back then.

 

One thing that does seem to come up again and again though is that it seems highly unlikely now or then that the women would have, or could have, went to his tomb during the festival to mourn much less interact with his corpse. This makes them discovering his resurrection within 3 days implausible. The day after the festival would be the very first day this discovery could be made.

 

Now, the other thing that I am finding interesting as well, is that for those outside Jerusalem is Passover lasted 8 days instead of 7 (as it did in Jerusalem). It's speculated the reason is that those outside couldn't be sure it had actually began and did this as a precaution since one of the days had to be the right one. So if we have two "sabbaths" back to back with jesus getting killed prior to the first and popping up after the second, well, it's obvious that he makes it out on the 3rd day and BOTH days are Passover Sabbath days. Not just that but the 2nd Sabbath is also a regular Sabbath making it a special version (I want to say Shabbat of Chol HaMoed but this could be wrong since I'm a total novice at this). How's that for a trick? But it only really works if you're outside of Jerusalem and we all know the guys that wrote this were all in town when this happened.

 

Oh well, I'll keep on digging around. Thanks for the leads. I appreciate the help.

 

mwc