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Report post   Posted 1 hour ago Thanks for the link DanForsman. I'd listened to Ken Millers presentation on this trial, but this helped get an overall sense of it. ID is such a strange movement to me, it seems like they embrace the archaeological record, and embrace microevolution, but never macroevolution. So they're left with the conclusion that every new species just poofed into existence the first time we see it appear. And then there's the inevitable question of which designer is it? Do other religions embrace this as science and then claim it's their designer, or is it really just a complicated argument made by Christians.   Don't know if you got to watch this but the several day presentation put on by scientists who had volunteered to represent evolution had the judge and the media just mesmerized particularly when the altered chromosome that evolution had predicted was discovered. That engaging testimony had raised expectations for what the creationists would present. The thing that shocked everyone was how simplistic and easily disproved the "evidence" was that the creationists presented. Here was their big chance to demonstrate their alternative "science" and they had all their money and hired their best scientists but lacked the critical evidence. Creation scientists had absolutely nothing to present. The judge just ripped them in his decision.   

Well that's both comforting to know, and sobering that others have to go through this too. I'm glad you were able to see the light and deal with it as well. I'll have to keep my expectations realistic and understand that recovery will be a drawn out process..   Yeah this was a big one for me too. I mentioned this to my mom after she said a pastor told her that Egyptians removed Moses from their history books or something. Technically they would have removed a lot more than that from history books and archaeology..

Actually when you posted this I had just ordered Marlene's book. I'm 4 chapters in and its just an absolute game changer for me! I scored so high on the manipulations test that it hurts haha. Thanks for the tips!

Hi MOHO, It was put together over a span of about 6 years. Though I keep it updated as I like to go through certain sections myself, to remind me of the ground I've covered. I have given it recently to a select few who have talked to me over the years since I lost my faith, with the expectation that they may share it with others. So far, only crickets. In fairness, however, I imagine they haven't come close to getting through it and find it rather daunting, as it clocks in at over 1200 pages, with 4 generous further reading sections >.<  That was not my original plan! Back in 2012 I planned to finish it rather quickly, thinking it might be 200 pages, and covering just the standard arguments for God that one finds in a philosophy of religion textbook (e.g., fine-tuning, cosmological and moral arguments). But I just kept going and going as I encountered new arguments and read more books. I ended up wanting to cover nearly everything, like the doctrine of Hell, the ugliness of Yahweh, the Resurrection, the origins of Christianity and religion, death, awe and wonder, meaning in life, and so on. It became a serious project.  Carrier is in there, yup. So are the so-called Four Horsemen, though they actually are not really a main attraction. I'd say it's filled mostly with professional philosophers, scientists, and biblical scholars that aren't part of the "new atheism" crowd. So, yeah, they may just be looking at certain sections or have just put it aside to read when they have a lot more time. I'm not sure. Will be interesting to see how/if they respond.

Thanks for the link DanForsman. I'd listened to Ken Millers presentation on this trial, but this helped get an overall sense of it. ID is such a strange movement to me, it seems like they embrace the archaeological record, and embrace microevolution, but never macroevolution. So they're left with the conclusion that every new species just poofed into existence the first time we see it appear. And then there's the inevitable question of which designer is it? Do other religions embrace this as science and then claim it's their designer, or is it really just a complicated argument made by Christians.

Welcome to Ex-C, @Luke6188.   Regarding the anthology that you put together (are putting together?)? Have you presented it to your fams? I'm interested in their responses as attempts to introduce concepts from Carrier, Hitchens, Hawkins, Minwel et al to family members have led me to the conclusion that folks have to be questioning already to really appreciate enlightenment on that level. Perhaps the mere mention will cause them to question - down the road.   Fodder for another topic, that.   Welcome again and hope to hear more from you.      - MOHO (Mind Of His Own)

Thanks, LF! Appreciate it

Hi Luke   Welcome to Ex-C.   Glad to have you with us. Your experience will be helpful for new deconverts.