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    •  Many apologists will say that the arguments for God’s existence should be seen as a cumulative case rather than any single argument being a reason for belief on its own. This is understandable as the majority of arguments for God are second hand inference, God of the gaps or incredulity based, so as evidence goes none of it should not be convincing on its own.

      The cumulative case works in both directions, as there are many reasons to disbelieve in a God’s existence, but any single argument may not be convincing on its own. With that in mind, here are a few of the more common reasons for disbelief and the rabbit hole of questions that these reasons lead to:  
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      • 52 replies
    • The evidence is clear that evil and suffering exist.
       
      The evidence that god exists?  No one really has any.
       
      Moreover, we know that even if a god does exist, evil and suffering obviously do not offend him.  If it did, he'd have put a stop to it by now.  After all, if he is omniscient, then he knows how much evil and suffering there is; and how broken and miserable it makes human existence.  If he really is omnibenevolent, then he wants to prevent his children from brokenness and misery.  If he really is omnipotent, then he has the ability to prevent the evil and suffering that causes brokenness and misery.  And if he really is omnipresent, then he is present every where that evil and suffering exist.
       
      If god is all of these things, and evil and suffering offend him, then why do evil and suffering continue to exist?  Why has he not moved to alleviate his own offense and save us all in the process? The simple fact that evil and suffering continue in this world is, in itself, evidence that god is not offended by it... or maybe god isn't the omni-max he's made out to be... or maybe god simply does not exist. 
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    • Animal suffering is a subject which I have thought of as simply a variation on the problem of suffering.  If God loved every one of His creations, then why would He set up a system where predators need to kill live prey to survive.  It's a system designed around killing, which is hard to reconcile with a loving, good God.
      However, I came across some other implications of animal suffering that expand the subject in several interesting ways.  The first was that if you are an old Earth creationist, so accept evolution, then the creation of every species that we see was guided by the principles of survival of the fittest, with evolutionary pressure being horrendous suffering (predation, disease, starvation, conflict etc).  The tool that God decided to use was untold misery for hundreds of millions of years, before we get to our current world of diverse life.
      The fact that thousands of T-Rex stalked the lands killing to survive, can't be seen as necessary, when they are all extinct long before His chosen people come along.  Hundreds of millions of years of creatures being torn limb from limb, before any of it mattered for our existence.  Why have that time period of suffering without benefit?
       
      I was talking to a vegan, who said God loves all of His creations, and believing that Christians should be vegan because killing His creations was against His will.  This just led to pointing to the horrors of the OT, where God requests burnt sacrifices on a regular basis, saying that the smell was pleasing to Him.  Or to the Israelites attacks on various cities, where they are told to kill all of the inhabitants, including the innocent animals.  King Saul even angered God for not murdering all of the animals, as some were taken as plunder.
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    • Hello,
      I guess our reasons for joining this site are slightly different for each person and yet perhaps desperation might be a common theme. So, with that said, a brief introduction. I have been involved with Christianity for many years. Out of sheer despair, I suppose I ended up finding this site. 
      Here is my experience with Christianity:
      The unhappiest times of my life were when I got myself involved in Christianity. I marvel at those who appear to be at ease with it all. I conclude, there's something wrong with me. 
      Never, have I felt more powerless, worthless, unfree. 
      • 9 replies
    • Failed prayer, the idea that there is an invisible being , listening to everyones thoughts is beyond laughable. 
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    • pantheory
      Quote from James Webb observations:  “James Webb telescope confirms there is something seriously wrong with our understanding of the universe” “Astronomers have used the James Webb and Hubble space telescopes to confirm one of the most troubling conundrums in all of physics — that the universe appears to be expanding at bafflingly different speeds depending on where we look.” https://www.livescience.com/space/cosmology/james-webb-telescope-confirms-there-is-something-seriously-wrong-with-our-understanding-of-the-universe These observations not only put dark energy in doubt but also the Hubble constant and the expansion of space, which some now consider a variable. To explain this, all different kinds of non-mainstream proposals are now being made. Below is one of them called “Unparticles.” A. Friedman, Mysterious “Unparticles,”  the expansion of the universe https://www.livescience.com/physics-mathematics/particle-physics/mysterious-unparticles-may-be-pushing-the-universe-apart-new-theoretical-study-suggests                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            moxieflux66     
    • Weezer
      Does anyone else want to discuss the topic??
    • Weezer
      Perhaps Anderson got some of his ideas from Zecharia Sitchin??  Who also has a vivid imagination, which he connects to some ancient writings.  
    • Rae
      I do have supportive friends, but I fell into a depression and haven’t been speaking much to others.
    • mwc
      The video starts out with about 10 minutes of intro and prayer.        It then goes into about, not quite, an hour of, well, nothing new.  We need to assume the bible is 100% true.  It didn't evolve.  And as a result the characters aren't who they appear to be so here's his "fix."  And, it's far less elegant than Marcion.        After that hour we get maybe 10 or so minutes of conspiracy theories.  That's always fun.        Then we get back on track where we finish up and get another prayer.         All in all a lackluster affair.        That said I'll head off on my own with a point that really stuck out in my mind probably because I think it was around the time he wondered off into his conspiracy theories.  It had to do with the alter of Pergamon (also Pergamum).  He makes the terribly false claim that this is the throne of Satan mentioned in the Revelation.  The reality is that the city was known as a "neokoros."  Cities would be granted this title with consent of both the emperor and the senate after having creating a temple to the Imperial Cult and having this temple as being regionally significant.  So not just anywhere that had an Imperial cult temple was awarded this title.  Pergamon was granted this title during the first century and was given the additional title of "first neokoros" at the start of the second century (and likely held the title while the Revelation was being written).  Basically, the seat of the Imperial Cult is in this city and would be a much larger issue than just another temple to Jupiter.        To quote a Review of Neokoroi: Greek cities and Roman Emperors. Cincinnati Classical Studies, New Series Volume IX: Even when the temple was shared with Roma or another cult partner, this other god was often merely “a placeholder, whose name could drop from common reference” (pp. 2-3). Significantly, this was never true in reverse, even when the other deity was one of the traditional pantheon. Thus a coin depicting Pergamon’s first and second koinon temples could show not just Augustus standing alone in his temple but also Trajan alone within his (even though it was shared with Zeus Philios), “indicating … what the Pergamenes thought to be essential: the emperors” (p. 25).        In addition, in his strange Nazi conspiracy rant, the whole temple was never moved to the Soviet Union but only a few pieces.  Why he decides that it's the alter that somehow enables rocket flight is beyond me since the alter never comes the United States but we managed.  We did the same thing the Soviets did and used Nazi scientists NOT magic alters possessed by ancient god aliens or whatever he's hinting at.  I mean he goes on about Mars being previously inhabited and conspiracies to hide that so who knows?  I think he's got some issues.        A couple of (minor?) things I recall was how he claimed the Israelites in Egypt were pretty rich so a good god would have just renegotiated their terms with pharaoh instead of taking them out.  And in the two verses about David taking the census he says they branded the people.  They did not.  That's a lie.  A quick note here it cost money to do a census: 12 “When you take a census of the Israelites to count them, each one must pay the Lord a ransom for his life at the time he is counted. Then no plague will come on them when you number them. The whole section is about the rules but basically it cost the person money to count them or else a plague would happen.  From the story a plague killed 70,000 people so no money must have been collected (we're told David chose a plague but it's also clear it's expected result for not collecting the ransom so it seems like if you paid the ransom you're immune).  Now there were a number of reasons for a census but it seems like David may have been counting to discover how many people he could recruit if necessary.             mwc  
    • Weezer
      Do you have a social support system outside family and therapy?
    • Weezer
      I followed him in his discussion of biblical writings of Yahweh, and it made sense.  I had heard some of it before.  But when he got to the part about Yahweh following the "temples" from Jerusualm to Germany in 1930, then to Russia, and back to Germany, and then bringing (or coming with) the scientists from germany to the USA after world war ll in operation Paperclip, and establishing NASA so he could build rockets in an effort to get off planet earth, and get back to the "tree of Life" so he would not die, (and even more crap about Mars and the deep state) I decide Israel Anderson is delusional.  If what he says is true, Yahweh would be thousands of years old.   I do agree the story of Jesus does not "fit" with the Old Testament "God", but this guys explanation is, to put it nicely, VERY "far fetched."  Although he seems to sincerely believe what he is saying..
    • older
      A good one. I'm reminded of Scigen, a site created back in 2005 by some MIT folks to create fake computer science research papers, some of which were accepted and printed. They also created fake content for talks at conferences. I'm not sure if it still works but here's a link: https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/archive/scigen/
    • older
      As I recall, that's how the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster started.
    • Weezer
      I forgot to say this book is available in ebook form, and is a fairly recent book.  If I remember correctly, the author is an exchristian.
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    • moxieflux66

      moxieflux66

      Hey! It was my anniversary here at Ex-c yesterday! 🍻🎂🥳
      · 1 reply
    • Casualfanboy16

      Casualfanboy16

      I know God doesn't exist, but if he did I'd loooove to ask that bitch what he was tweaking on when making the appendix fr fr. "We were fearfully and wonderfully made by God" my ass. My appendix????? Tried to kill me???????? I know no developers put out great models all the time, but if the feature you added for some purpose stops being useful why haven't you removed it???? God wants me dead and I looked into his eyes and laughed.
      · 0 replies
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