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    •  Many apologists will say that the arguments for God’s existence should be seen as a cumulative case rather than any single argument being a reason for belief on its own. This is understandable as the majority of arguments for God are second hand inference, God of the gaps or incredulity based, so as evidence goes none of it should not be convincing on its own.

      The cumulative case works in both directions, as there are many reasons to disbelieve in a God’s existence, but any single argument may not be convincing on its own. With that in mind, here are a few of the more common reasons for disbelief and the rabbit hole of questions that these reasons lead to:  
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    • The evidence is clear that evil and suffering exist.
       
      The evidence that god exists?  No one really has any.
       
      Moreover, we know that even if a god does exist, evil and suffering obviously do not offend him.  If it did, he'd have put a stop to it by now.  After all, if he is omniscient, then he knows how much evil and suffering there is; and how broken and miserable it makes human existence.  If he really is omnibenevolent, then he wants to prevent his children from brokenness and misery.  If he really is omnipotent, then he has the ability to prevent the evil and suffering that causes brokenness and misery.  And if he really is omnipresent, then he is present every where that evil and suffering exist.
       
      If god is all of these things, and evil and suffering offend him, then why do evil and suffering continue to exist?  Why has he not moved to alleviate his own offense and save us all in the process? The simple fact that evil and suffering continue in this world is, in itself, evidence that god is not offended by it... or maybe god isn't the omni-max he's made out to be... or maybe god simply does not exist. 
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    • Animal suffering is a subject which I have thought of as simply a variation on the problem of suffering.  If God loved every one of His creations, then why would He set up a system where predators need to kill live prey to survive.  It's a system designed around killing, which is hard to reconcile with a loving, good God.
      However, I came across some other implications of animal suffering that expand the subject in several interesting ways.  The first was that if you are an old Earth creationist, so accept evolution, then the creation of every species that we see was guided by the principles of survival of the fittest, with evolutionary pressure being horrendous suffering (predation, disease, starvation, conflict etc).  The tool that God decided to use was untold misery for hundreds of millions of years, before we get to our current world of diverse life.
      The fact that thousands of T-Rex stalked the lands killing to survive, can't be seen as necessary, when they are all extinct long before His chosen people come along.  Hundreds of millions of years of creatures being torn limb from limb, before any of it mattered for our existence.  Why have that time period of suffering without benefit?
       
      I was talking to a vegan, who said God loves all of His creations, and believing that Christians should be vegan because killing His creations was against His will.  This just led to pointing to the horrors of the OT, where God requests burnt sacrifices on a regular basis, saying that the smell was pleasing to Him.  Or to the Israelites attacks on various cities, where they are told to kill all of the inhabitants, including the innocent animals.  King Saul even angered God for not murdering all of the animals, as some were taken as plunder.
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    • Hello,
      I guess our reasons for joining this site are slightly different for each person and yet perhaps desperation might be a common theme. So, with that said, a brief introduction. I have been involved with Christianity for many years. Out of sheer despair, I suppose I ended up finding this site. 
      Here is my experience with Christianity:
      The unhappiest times of my life were when I got myself involved in Christianity. I marvel at those who appear to be at ease with it all. I conclude, there's something wrong with me. 
      Never, have I felt more powerless, worthless, unfree. 
      • 9 replies
    • Failed prayer, the idea that there is an invisible being , listening to everyones thoughts is beyond laughable. 
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    • older
      Yes!!!   And do follow the link to the Guardian article that's in the piece linked to above. It's a great story.
    • older
      Don't tell them you are going. Sign up for a creative writing class at the local J.C. (you're a good writer) and thus you'll qualify for the campus counseling center.
    • older
      Hi Casual:   Your situation certainly sucks. You have been very strong in spite of being beaten upon emotionally but it still hurts. Weezer mentions an outside person who can listen and make suggestions on strategies toward some relief. Do give that some thought. Many of us have found it valuable and worthwhile.   And, of course, we are always here for you.
    • Weezer
      Casual, this is about personal stuff, so I am taking this to PM.
    • Wertbag
      The Taliban have been condemned around the world as one of the most brutal and repressive regimes, inflicting a strict form of Shria law that has resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands and the loss of most civil rights.  The thought occurs, how different is the theocratic government of the Taliban from the biblical Jewish and Christian groups? The Taliban don't allow women to be uncovered, to teach, to work (barring providing other women healthcare) or to be out of their home unless escorted by a male relative.  This misogyny seems pretty extreme, but then when you compare it to the biblical teachings including women being covered, not teaching, having no authority, having no consent or choice and being valued less than men, there are a lot of parallels.   The Taliban kill gays, unbelievers or believers in other religions, as well as anyone they deem breaching public sensibility or committing blasphemy.  The bible tells us to kill gays, unbelievers, believers in other religions and lays out plenty of capital punishment crimes including victimless crimes and even thought crimes.  You could easily get to the same legal setting as the Taliban.   The Taliban have killed thousands once they took control, while Christian on Christian killing throughout Europe's history was constant.  The Taliban destroyed libraries, museums and thousands of ancient relics, while Christians destroyed Islamic temples, melted down holy symbols and destroyed anything "blasphemous".  Inquisitions and witch trials would not have been possible without the rulers being fully onboard with the church killing for any reason they deemed against God.     Even just imagining Jesus and the 12 disciples, these would have been middle eastern looking men, bearded, speaking regional languages and wearing the same flowing robes that people from desert regions wear.  They would have looked exactly like the Islamic people today, and nothing like any European person would picture in their mind.   Christians are willing to die for their God as they are so convinced they are correct, the Taliban are exactly the same, absolutely convinced they are correct.  It's all taught behaviour, but I would suggest that that same taught behaviour was the norm 2000 years ago, and in appearance, laws and attitude I doubt we would see any great difference between those we now condemn as horrific, and those the bible holds up as God's chosen people, lead to greatness by His word.
    • Casualfanboy16
      I just responded to it, but I would much rather get away from the parents before anything therapy related so they somehow don't weaponize me trying to heal against me lol
    • Casualfanboy16
      I've considered it, but I think a big part of my problems stems from all the pressure from my parents to basically be someone I'm not, which is taking a gigantic toll on my mental health. I'm just like, coping the best I can right now. I don't want to self-diagnose myself. I just go through periods of rumination and negative thoughts like any totally normal person ever!    Okay, but I'm gonna be honest, unless I get some like real long-term physical distance from family, no amount of professional help is gonna fix things if I'm constantly returning to the same environment that enables my toxic behaviors/thoughts. Hopefully this doesn't come across as some dumb excuse, but so far my biggest hurdle when trying to improve myself has been my parents, and myself, but parents are a pretty big reason as to why. My parents have been trying extra hard to hold onto that parent-child dynamic as of late, especially with sex trafficking apparently being on the rise, which could be true. But again, this feels really overbearing and helicopter parent-y and I'm not really coping well with it because it just keeps happening and I want to have a normal life and a shot at making friends no matter how paranoid my parents are.
    • Weezer
      Have you seen my post in your other thread?
    • Casualfanboy16
      Mostly emotionally I'm like kinda down. Idk much about physically, unless self-isolating to preserve my mental health counts as physical stuff, but I'm trying to get out with friends, which sort of works. It's a process.
    • Weezer
      Have you considered that you may be suffering from depression??  Get an appointment with a mental health professional, and tell them what you have told us!!
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      Casualfanboy16

      This is my 666th post, I think. What should I do for this momentous occasion?
       
      edit: fuck nevermind..... status updates don't count as posts... cringe
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    • Casualfanboy16

      Casualfanboy16

      If I go to Hell I want my preferred method of torture to be spun around and cooked like a silly little rotisserie chicken. 🍗
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