A forum to discuss how ex-Christians have dealt with family members, replaced the church as a place of community, reactions of your family, friends, church, acquaintances upon learning of the de-conversion, or anything else relevant to the Ex-Christian Life.
The bulk of science does not support belief in a deity, or does it? This is an open discussion area to hone your skills at supporting and understanding the various positions. Feel free to post any links of value in this important topic.
This section is confined to serious and formal debate. New topics will not appear in this section until approved by a moderator. For best results, contact a moderator before attempting to post a new topic in this section.
Some people regard private enterprise as a predatory tiger to be shot. Others look on it as a cow they can milk. Not enough people see it as a healthy horse, pulling a sturdy wagon. - Winston Churchill
Hell man, imaging you were God is how you found him right? "for he that comes God must believe he is.
Why would God explain anything to mortals seeing that they are going to be dead in the blink of an eye anyways 😉
But of course you wouldn't want to hear about the 'in kind' principle since if God created the world ex nihilo then that would mean that there was nothing to your God.
But even assuming an eternal God created the world, then nothing in the world could be eternal since the eternal can neither be created nor destroyed. And if not eternal then of course those who were created by nothing would believe that the universe would pass away into nothing because if not eternal then it would end since only the eternal has not end of existence.
And seeing that the 'in kind' principle clearly demonstrates that 'nothing could only come from nothing', now that is something for mortals to think about.
Your claim that the scripture tells you that the earth is flat is only evdence of your calling.
You mean is it isn't sitting on it axis? So why does the earth move with the electromagnetic waves pulsating from the convergence of the two bands of the electrmagnetic circuit?
But I guess if a person does believe that God is light they can't see the truth.
Like Job said, Oh that my words were now visible, Oh that the were printed in light'
But as far as you question "what is day and what is night", would you believe that they are the two great lights that were set in the cloud that the LORD covered the earth with like a garment? How did he do that you ask? Simple by the rotation of the earth upon it's axis. Since there are 12 hours in a day and 12 hours in a nigh then you would have 100%/ 0% or 24 hours of light on one side and 0 hours on the other. That is if you believe the rotation of the sun is produced by the two bands of the electromagnetic wave. One band is pulling the earth towards the sun while the other is pushing it away. You don't think the earth is whirling around in space like a bobber on a whirlpool of water do you?
So if a day is 24 hours, until the earth was rotating at with 12 hours of light along the equator then you wouldn't have 12 hours of night.
Do you know what the effects would be on you if the earth didn't rotate?
Then don't tell me there is a devil if you don't believe there is one was the point of my post.
The truth be known I give a rat's ass if you believe in truth or not, but I do know that unless some opens the door to the possiblity something maybe true then that door will stay shut, and I have no obligiation to prove a dam thing to you. But don't you think that is a little hypocritical to say don't tell us that there alternatives to our interpretation of the truth.
So if you don't believe that everything is light then the fact I believe that Genesis 1:1 represents that the lights created darkness doesn't prove that everything isn't light or that you even know what you are talking about much that you are a truth seeker.
1. Since the LORD is a God of truth, then if you choose to put lies over the truth don't be surprised if you claim think your lies are the truth.
2. Whoever told you that the first commandment is thou shalt have no other gods before him is lying to you.
3. Don't blame in the LORD that you got deceived.
4. Don't blame in on them that told you cause you if you had did what they told you then you wouldn't have got deceived.
You might consider putting the blame on Fanny.....
Why are you asking us this question? Why not ask god? Is it because you can ask god all you want and you'll simply get silence? Or a "feeling"? Or some gibberish spouted off by someone else that you or some other person can interpret? But no matter how many times you ask you will never, ever, in your entire life get an actual sit-down, long form answer, from god?
Anyhow, "god" spent tons of space on the creation. Literally tens of verses. Maybe more if we add the second account and the miscellaneous verses that people tie-in the creation. God really spent a lot of time and effort trying to communicate this as best as a perfect being possibly could no matter the audience that's for certain.
It's not like we're talking about the whole building a tent of meeting that gets described a couple of times in painful detail by comparison.
Come on. The creation is a gloss by comparison. God fail. But since it's god we'll say he failed perfectly. Just like we've glossed over god building the earth on a foundation and all that nonsense in Job.
Darkness precedes the creation of light. Darkness first. Then light. Then separation.
But prior to all this where did god live? In something? What was that something? Not heaven. And there was nothing else. Nothing existed. So nothingness.
Contingency would mean god would be unaware of what was coming and this would be a "Plan B," you know, just in case "Plan A" didn't work out. Foreknowledge sort of contradicts this whole idea.
If god is light, literally light, then god is never at rest since light is always, in all reference frames, traveling at the speed of light by its very definition. The bible says that on the seventh day that god rested. That is a contradiction. Also, if god literally covers himself then that would cause his photon-y goodness to be destroyed. That is the only way "darkness" can be created (unless god somehow bounces himself off a series of mirrors or other strange tricks).
But, you've already seem to argue prior to this that god apparently used "figures of speech" from bronze/iron age language to describe everything to simple minds and then taking that literally to argue here. Basically you're using a less than reliable message but claiming it is extremely reliable. God may well not be light at all according to this but only trying to relate himself to simple minds. Nor may god be any of the things said of him by the same said reasoning. I doubt that's what you want so we'll just move on.
There cannot be good without evil and light without darkness. These things rely on the other. They usually exist on a continuum but could be binary. If everything was simply "good" then the least-good would become evil while the most-good would be perfect. If everything were the same exact level of good then that would just be the normal. There would be neither good nor evil. If everything is perfect then nothing is perfect. Perfection becomes just the ordinary not the extraordinary.
And unless everything becomes transparent, or light emitters, at some point there will be darkness. There's no getting around that. And unless sight works differently than now then simply having light hit the eye to see will cause the photons to be destroyed. Closing your eyelids even. That is darkness. I couldn't imagine a nightmare were there was no darkness anywhere. No shadows. Nothing. Inside or outside. Nowhere. Just light all the time. Forever. Even when I close my eyes. Pure torture.
Oddly enough, if all light is god, as I said before, I can't imagine that god hitting objects, like my eye, should destroy him so we'll have to imagine more than a new heaven and new earth but an entirely new form of magical physics too. The idea of god sitting on a throne won't work since he'll be quite active in his light-speed ways and a lot of gravity to deal with to boot. Sounds a lot like we're just worshiping the Sun here but that would be silly. Lets just say a "star like object that's definitely not the Sun but similar in that it's made up of light." Only some iron age type of guys would come up with this but we know they didn't because god definitely described himself to them and not the other way around.
God sure is making a lot of plans for a lot of fuck ups that he knew were coming or already were in progress. This guy sucks at his job. If you know the train is going to derail you don't fill it with passengers while having a guy busy digging graves. You don't get credit for knowing you'd need those graves and a pat on the back. You get fired and hopefully arrested. The train shouldn't have been loaded and it should have never left the station. Blaming it on the "evil passenger" who you knew was going to set off a bomb and cause the disaster is still all on you because you knew beforehand and failed to act accordingly.
"In the beginning god created the heavens and the earth...darkness was over the surface of the deep..." Oops. It looks like darkness precedes the creation of light. Darkness comes first. Then comes the creation of light and then god separates them.
How is darkness negative in the creation? There's nothing there to indicate that at all. It says that it is "good." You see, the light was "day" and the darkness was "night." The creation was good. That includes darkness. There's nothing here to say "night" is bad.
There's nothing to show "god is social." God supposedly made two of every kind except humans. God then brought all the animals to Adam to see if any of them would do. That's shows ignorance, a lack of foresight, not intelligence and certainly not a being seeking a "social network" or the desire to create one for his most superior creation.
No scholars think Moses wrote any of the books of the bible. "Scholars," on the other hand, probably do think Moses wrote Job for all I know.
What the fuck are you saying here? This is insane shit that isn't backed up by anything...literally...not...one...thing...in the actual bible. There was no meeting where Adam was supposed to meet with god and satan came instead. If you're huffing something you should say so.
The meeting at the beginning of Job takes place at the time of Job. God asks only a couple of verses later something to the effect of "Have you considered Job? There's no one on earth like him." If this meeting took place during the time of Adam this question would be nonsensical since Job didn't exist yet. If we're supposed to consider some sort of temporal shift, like time-traveling, then it just gets worse. So satan is supposed to know about and then go after Job in hundreds of years? Or immediately travel to the future and back? Nonsense. The time frame is set. And it's not during Adam's life but Job's.
It seems that you accept the earth is flat and on fixed foundations as described in Job. I'd like for you to at least admit that.
Where did you get that it was satan here? Because the Genesis narrative does not have that information. It is a serpent.
Our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come,
...THY WILL BE DONE on earth AS IT IS IN HEAVEN...
Oh no. Looks like gods will is always done in heaven. Period. No need to long suffer up there. It's just god's will. So if there's a rebellion, well, that's god's will. If there's an on-going war. That's god's will. If there's anything that happens for any reason. That's god's will. It's all god's will in heaven.
What that means that, if you're in heaven, and an angel somehow turns evil? That's god's will. Not the angel's will. It cannot be. Jesus said so and that's really binding stuff when it comes to heaven since he's supposed to know what goes on there pretty well. That means satan can't go rogue unless god willed it. And since it took place in heaven that has to be the case. There are zero other options in this situation. It's nice to think that satan became jealous and all on his own but if so we'd have to assume that this was god's will as well. God would then have known this was going to happen, allowed it, allowed the war, placed satan on earth, allowed the "fall" and really just loaded up that train while digging all those graves like I said before.
I'm not sure I saw where any of this was actually demonstrated. I responded to all you said and, while it was lengthy and wandering, it never really showed what you're claiming here. Maybe distill things down a bit? I doubt that can be done though since it's really not in the bible. Some people argue two creations and maybe a gap (I don't buy that either) but at least they can almost get some evidence for it. Your thing is baffling me.
That's it. Regardless of whether or not some experience even relates to someone's personal religion, they will often try and shoe horn it somehow. I guess they just don't know how else to interpret the experience. We had that issue the other week where someone was talking about ghosts or something as if it proves the bible, when ghosts are more contrary to the bible than anything else. Something unknown or unexplained = bible true. Except more often than not, these unexplained issues run contrary to the bible rather than bolster it.