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    •  Many apologists will say that the arguments for God’s existence should be seen as a cumulative case rather than any single argument being a reason for belief on its own. This is understandable as the majority of arguments for God are second hand inference, God of the gaps or incredulity based, so as evidence goes none of it should not be convincing on its own.

      The cumulative case works in both directions, as there are many reasons to disbelieve in a God’s existence, but any single argument may not be convincing on its own. With that in mind, here are a few of the more common reasons for disbelief and the rabbit hole of questions that these reasons lead to:  
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    • The evidence is clear that evil and suffering exist.
      The evidence that god exists?  No one really has any.
      Moreover, we know that even if a god does exist, evil and suffering obviously do not offend him.  If it did, he'd have put a stop to it by now.  After all, if he is omniscient, then he knows how much evil and suffering there is; and how broken and miserable it makes human existence.  If he really is omnibenevolent, then he wants to prevent his children from brokenness and misery.  If he really is omnipotent, then he has the ability to prevent the evil and suffering that causes brokenness and misery.  And if he really is omnipresent, then he is present every where that evil and suffering exist.
      If god is all of these things, and evil and suffering offend him, then why do evil and suffering continue to exist?  Why has he not moved to alleviate his own offense and save us all in the process? The simple fact that evil and suffering continue in this world is, in itself, evidence that god is not offended by it... or maybe god isn't the omni-max he's made out to be... or maybe god simply does not exist. 
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    • Animal suffering is a subject which I have thought of as simply a variation on the problem of suffering.  If God loved every one of His creations, then why would He set up a system where predators need to kill live prey to survive.  It's a system designed around killing, which is hard to reconcile with a loving, good God.
      However, I came across some other implications of animal suffering that expand the subject in several interesting ways.  The first was that if you are an old Earth creationist, so accept evolution, then the creation of every species that we see was guided by the principles of survival of the fittest, with evolutionary pressure being horrendous suffering (predation, disease, starvation, conflict etc).  The tool that God decided to use was untold misery for hundreds of millions of years, before we get to our current world of diverse life.
      The fact that thousands of T-Rex stalked the lands killing to survive, can't be seen as necessary, when they are all extinct long before His chosen people come along.  Hundreds of millions of years of creatures being torn limb from limb, before any of it mattered for our existence.  Why have that time period of suffering without benefit?
      I was talking to a vegan, who said God loves all of His creations, and believing that Christians should be vegan because killing His creations was against His will.  This just led to pointing to the horrors of the OT, where God requests burnt sacrifices on a regular basis, saying that the smell was pleasing to Him.  Or to the Israelites attacks on various cities, where they are told to kill all of the inhabitants, including the innocent animals.  King Saul even angered God for not murdering all of the animals, as some were taken as plunder.
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    • Hello,
      I guess our reasons for joining this site are slightly different for each person and yet perhaps desperation might be a common theme. So, with that said, a brief introduction. I have been involved with Christianity for many years. Out of sheer despair, I suppose I ended up finding this site. 
      Here is my experience with Christianity:
      The unhappiest times of my life were when I got myself involved in Christianity. I marvel at those who appear to be at ease with it all. I conclude, there's something wrong with me. 
      Never, have I felt more powerless, worthless, unfree. 
      • 9 replies
    • Failed prayer, the idea that there is an invisible being , listening to everyones thoughts is beyond laughable. 
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  • Recent Posts

    • Weezer
      The more I consider the idea of some "spirit", energy, force, consciousness, etc that is separate from our physical being, the more I think it may be true.
    • TheRedneckProfessor
    • Krowb
      Dennett was one of the "four horsemen" and was also deeply involved in The Clergy Project:   Daniel C. Dennett’s Predictions for The Clergy Project 
    • ABabyBoyAtHeart1977
      It’s going quite well actually since I told the person in question that I am not going to the apostolic church whatsoever. They haven’t bugged me since. So we are doing well. Thanks for asking.
    • moxieflux66
      Would that mean the spell of religion or xtianity? Is he a recent philosopher? Tell us more.....🤔
    • Fuego
      I've always wondered why gods want a starship, er warriors to fight for him when he can wish them into pain, nonexistence, etc. It has always stood out as a hypocritical thing. Gideon is a prime example. "Let Baal contend. If Baal is god, let him deal with me." Sounds reasonable. But then when night fell he straps on a sword and gets his buddies to slaughter for Yhwh, showing his hypocrisy. 
    • Weezer
      The “willful workers” prayer was posted on Facebook by a “Christian” who is on a local school board.  The other is a quote of Kari Lake.  Don’t they make you want to run to your local church and join the children of God ASAP??
    • sdelsolray
      Dennett was a true thinker.  Often, I would need to read his writing more than once to grasp what he was saying.  He was often a bit thick in other words.  I've read many of his works.  Two of my favorites are:   From Bacteria to Bach and Back: The Evolution of Minds and Science and Religion: Are They Compatible?
    • pantheory
      Haven't heard from you for awhile now disillusioned. How goes it?  Yeah, never heard of Daniel Dennett before but will read about him now --  take care.
    • disillusioned
      I never really agreed with the guy, but he was definitely smart and worth taking seriously. "Breaking the Spell" is a good read.   Rest in peace.
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      Happy New Year to my fellow heathens!!! Hope everyone has a fantastic new year and 2024 goes well for all people here! My New Year's resolution is to get a better sleep schedule (I'm not failing shhhhh! 🤫)
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