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    •  Many apologists will say that the arguments for God’s existence should be seen as a cumulative case rather than any single argument being a reason for belief on its own. This is understandable as the majority of arguments for God are second hand inference, God of the gaps or incredulity based, so as evidence goes none of it should not be convincing on its own.

      The cumulative case works in both directions, as there are many reasons to disbelieve in a God’s existence, but any single argument may not be convincing on its own. With that in mind, here are a few of the more common reasons for disbelief and the rabbit hole of questions that these reasons lead to:  
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    • The evidence is clear that evil and suffering exist.
       
      The evidence that god exists?  No one really has any.
       
      Moreover, we know that even if a god does exist, evil and suffering obviously do not offend him.  If it did, he'd have put a stop to it by now.  After all, if he is omniscient, then he knows how much evil and suffering there is; and how broken and miserable it makes human existence.  If he really is omnibenevolent, then he wants to prevent his children from brokenness and misery.  If he really is omnipotent, then he has the ability to prevent the evil and suffering that causes brokenness and misery.  And if he really is omnipresent, then he is present every where that evil and suffering exist.
       
      If god is all of these things, and evil and suffering offend him, then why do evil and suffering continue to exist?  Why has he not moved to alleviate his own offense and save us all in the process? The simple fact that evil and suffering continue in this world is, in itself, evidence that god is not offended by it... or maybe god isn't the omni-max he's made out to be... or maybe god simply does not exist. 
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    • Animal suffering is a subject which I have thought of as simply a variation on the problem of suffering.  If God loved every one of His creations, then why would He set up a system where predators need to kill live prey to survive.  It's a system designed around killing, which is hard to reconcile with a loving, good God.
      However, I came across some other implications of animal suffering that expand the subject in several interesting ways.  The first was that if you are an old Earth creationist, so accept evolution, then the creation of every species that we see was guided by the principles of survival of the fittest, with evolutionary pressure being horrendous suffering (predation, disease, starvation, conflict etc).  The tool that God decided to use was untold misery for hundreds of millions of years, before we get to our current world of diverse life.
      The fact that thousands of T-Rex stalked the lands killing to survive, can't be seen as necessary, when they are all extinct long before His chosen people come along.  Hundreds of millions of years of creatures being torn limb from limb, before any of it mattered for our existence.  Why have that time period of suffering without benefit?
       
      I was talking to a vegan, who said God loves all of His creations, and believing that Christians should be vegan because killing His creations was against His will.  This just led to pointing to the horrors of the OT, where God requests burnt sacrifices on a regular basis, saying that the smell was pleasing to Him.  Or to the Israelites attacks on various cities, where they are told to kill all of the inhabitants, including the innocent animals.  King Saul even angered God for not murdering all of the animals, as some were taken as plunder.
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    • Hello,
      I guess our reasons for joining this site are slightly different for each person and yet perhaps desperation might be a common theme. So, with that said, a brief introduction. I have been involved with Christianity for many years. Out of sheer despair, I suppose I ended up finding this site. 
      Here is my experience with Christianity:
      The unhappiest times of my life were when I got myself involved in Christianity. I marvel at those who appear to be at ease with it all. I conclude, there's something wrong with me. 
      Never, have I felt more powerless, worthless, unfree. 
      • 9 replies
    • Failed prayer, the idea that there is an invisible being , listening to everyones thoughts is beyond laughable. 
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  • Recent Posts

    • pantheory
      Interesting experiment, but the insight they say they hope to gain seems uncertain.
    • TheRedneckProfessor
      Bacteria implanted into fungi offer clues to the origins of complex life (nature.com)
    • moxieflux66
      You know, that's a bullshit story George Carlin himself would be impressed with! 🤣 Or maybe God! He might give you a pass from Hell for it too! I would!    At least the story had a happy ending....for the parents! 🤣
    • pantheory
      I explained it to her parents. It was in Utah. They said that God had also told them to do some things that they questioned at the time. But said that even though their daughter explained that God told me to do nice things with her, they said they believed their daughter was too young for me and that I should ask God for someone older. So I said OK.
    • moxieflux66
      Who did you have to defend yourself to? Her parents or a cop? 🤣
    • Wertbag
      Here in NZ, we had a census in 2023 for which the data is finally being released.  The bit of good news is that religious affiliation continues its downward trend. People responding "No religion": 2013 - 41.9% 2018 - 48.2% 2023 - 51.6%   Those declaring themselves Christian were down from 36.5% in 2018 to 32.3%, or 102,000 less total people. Other religions grew, but are small in total, with Hindu up from 2.6% to 2.9%, and Islam up from 1.3% to 1.5%.
    • pantheory
      Push the little heart at the bottom right hand corner of the posting that you like. It starts working about a week after you've posted here without rule breaking. If longer than that time ask a mod. They will help you.   Cheers 🍻
    • Crithin8
      I would ‘like’ this but I still cannot hit the like button.     
    • pantheory
      OH, he's real alright. All the things he told me I must do with that very pretty 15 year old girl almost got me in jail, or worse. That's why I call him stupid. I had to defend myself by explaining that God told me to do it, and luckily the girl acknowledged by explaining that she heard him tell me also.
    • moxieflux66
      My mama used to say, "Stupid is as stupid does". Hope that helps............   🤗🤗
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    • Casualfanboy16

      Casualfanboy16

      This is my 666th post, I think. What should I do for this momentous occasion?
       
      edit: fuck nevermind..... status updates don't count as posts... cringe
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    • Casualfanboy16

      Casualfanboy16

      If I go to Hell I want my preferred method of torture to be spun around and cooked like a silly little rotisserie chicken. 🍗
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