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  • Clubs

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    •  Many apologists will say that the arguments for God’s existence should be seen as a cumulative case rather than any single argument being a reason for belief on its own. This is understandable as the majority of arguments for God are second hand inference, God of the gaps or incredulity based, so as evidence goes none of it should not be convincing on its own.

      The cumulative case works in both directions, as there are many reasons to disbelieve in a God’s existence, but any single argument may not be convincing on its own. With that in mind, here are a few of the more common reasons for disbelief and the rabbit hole of questions that these reasons lead to:  
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    • The evidence is clear that evil and suffering exist.
       
      The evidence that god exists?  No one really has any.
       
      Moreover, we know that even if a god does exist, evil and suffering obviously do not offend him.  If it did, he'd have put a stop to it by now.  After all, if he is omniscient, then he knows how much evil and suffering there is; and how broken and miserable it makes human existence.  If he really is omnibenevolent, then he wants to prevent his children from brokenness and misery.  If he really is omnipotent, then he has the ability to prevent the evil and suffering that causes brokenness and misery.  And if he really is omnipresent, then he is present every where that evil and suffering exist.
       
      If god is all of these things, and evil and suffering offend him, then why do evil and suffering continue to exist?  Why has he not moved to alleviate his own offense and save us all in the process? The simple fact that evil and suffering continue in this world is, in itself, evidence that god is not offended by it... or maybe god isn't the omni-max he's made out to be... or maybe god simply does not exist. 
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    • Animal suffering is a subject which I have thought of as simply a variation on the problem of suffering.  If God loved every one of His creations, then why would He set up a system where predators need to kill live prey to survive.  It's a system designed around killing, which is hard to reconcile with a loving, good God.
      However, I came across some other implications of animal suffering that expand the subject in several interesting ways.  The first was that if you are an old Earth creationist, so accept evolution, then the creation of every species that we see was guided by the principles of survival of the fittest, with evolutionary pressure being horrendous suffering (predation, disease, starvation, conflict etc).  The tool that God decided to use was untold misery for hundreds of millions of years, before we get to our current world of diverse life.
      The fact that thousands of T-Rex stalked the lands killing to survive, can't be seen as necessary, when they are all extinct long before His chosen people come along.  Hundreds of millions of years of creatures being torn limb from limb, before any of it mattered for our existence.  Why have that time period of suffering without benefit?
       
      I was talking to a vegan, who said God loves all of His creations, and believing that Christians should be vegan because killing His creations was against His will.  This just led to pointing to the horrors of the OT, where God requests burnt sacrifices on a regular basis, saying that the smell was pleasing to Him.  Or to the Israelites attacks on various cities, where they are told to kill all of the inhabitants, including the innocent animals.  King Saul even angered God for not murdering all of the animals, as some were taken as plunder.
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    • Hello,
      I guess our reasons for joining this site are slightly different for each person and yet perhaps desperation might be a common theme. So, with that said, a brief introduction. I have been involved with Christianity for many years. Out of sheer despair, I suppose I ended up finding this site. 
      Here is my experience with Christianity:
      The unhappiest times of my life were when I got myself involved in Christianity. I marvel at those who appear to be at ease with it all. I conclude, there's something wrong with me. 
      Never, have I felt more powerless, worthless, unfree. 
      • 9 replies
    • Failed prayer, the idea that there is an invisible being , listening to everyones thoughts is beyond laughable. 
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  • Recent Posts

    • TheRedneckProfessor
      I don't recall asking anything about god's omnipotence or why he doesn't destroy hell and the fallen angels.  This seems to be just another way of dodging the question I did ask while seeming to provide more insight and information.  I suppose it doesn't matter, though, now that the debate is finished.
    • pantheory
      I have explained to you my understands of the words omnipotent (all powerful) and omnipresent (present everywhere) with the best understandings that I have of these words concerning the God of the Bible. IMHO God has unknown reasons for not destroying Hell and the fallen angels, for instance, not explained in the Bible along with many other possible questions unanswered. Again I have explained to you the best that I can, according to my beliefs, and I will listen to you but never argue with anyone about religion or really anything else. I do not like to argue. Of course there may be contradictions concerning things I've never thought about before but almost never change my mind quickly. My purpose is to explain what I know and believe to those asking, but never to argue about what I believe, only to answer questions about my knowledge and beliefs, answer questions for those who may be interested (seldom anyone), and listen and ponder their responses, but never to argue about my beliefs.   I make no claims here other than my beliefs. I guess the main belief that I have is that the Bible certainly has some errors in it for various reasons but I still choose to believe in the existence of God, that Jesus was a real person who was given important tasks by God, for the benefit of mankind.   Thank you for your time Redneck Professor. You have a good day also.
    • TheRedneckProfessor
      The first law of logic, known as the law of non-contradiction, states that A cannot be not-A.  In simple terms, this means that a thing cannot be the opposite of what it is.  A sea cannot be a desert.  Ice cannot be fire.  Mr. Non-Grata here has made the claim that hell exists outside of the presence of god.  However, this would mean that hell exists at a location where god is not present.  god cannot be omnipresent if he is not present everywhere, because omnipresence cannot be not-omnipresence.  Mr. Non-Grata's claim violates the first law of logic, which renders the claim unreliable, at best.  In this case, the proper response, according to the rules of logic, is to either acknowledge the contradiction and change one's position on the claim, or find a means of refuting the logic itself.  In the absence of either response, dear reader, decide for yourself what to believe concerning the claim.
    • TheRedneckProfessor
      Except you're not really doing that, though, are you?  I have asked several times for you to explain how god can be omnipotent if hell exists outside of god's presence.  I asked this based on your claim; but you haven't even attempted to address it.  Instead, you have introduced a number of different topics ranging from trinitarianism to whether or not Neanderthals had souls, which may be fascinating subjects on their own, but do not answer the question put to you.  One key aspect of a respectful debate is staying on topic until a point is sufficiently covered.  Trying to avoid the difficult questions by changing the subject is as dishonest as it is disrespectful, if the goal is to have a mutually beneficial debate.  Simply put, you're not trying to answer my questions; you're just reasserting your beliefs without regard to the questions I have asked.  I'd rather you just admit that you don't know the answer and we both move on about our business.   I'm not in the least surprised that, though ostensibly starting this thread for the specific purpose of arguing about your beliefs, you suddenly find yourself no longer wanting to.  Nor do I blame you.  You're clearly in over your depth here; and, no doubt, by now you've realized that you cannot argue your beliefs without ignoring the very logic you originally claimed to value and respect.  Caught between such a rock and hard place, the best thing you can do is try to back away.  Certainly, you're welcome to your own beliefs; and, in this forum, at least, you're free to patronize others by allowing them the same freedom with such feigned magnanimity.  But, when you initiate the conversation yourself, you really should have the gumption to see it through.  That involves answering the difficult questions or changing your position once you are shown it is in error.  This is also a key aspect of respectful debate.     Since it seems you are no longer willing to continue defending your claims, I will bid you good day.  Though, for the benefit of our audience, I will include one final post in order to clarify for them exactly how your claims are proven wrong by simple logic.  
    • moxieflux66
      https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2024/5/16/2241024/-Protect-your-church-with-Jesus-Rifles-and-a-trip-down-MRFF-s-memory-lane    
    • pantheory
      Sorry Sir, I have made no assertions, but if you think so I apologize since it was not my intent.  I am explaining my beliefs when asked about their detail  for anyone interested in them,  but I will not argue about them since they are my beliefs only. I have said "according to the Bible" and my understandings and beliefs of it. Without the Bible there could be no explanations of religion or a religious path to follow. But the Bible can be misunderstood, mistranslated, misinterpreted, mistakes or man-made modifications or insertions in its parts. God did not have to put his blessing on every word of mouth telling, every penned hand copy of it, and for every single translation for every different language. My purpose is simply to explain my beliefs when asked, not to convert you to any different belief. If my beliefs don't make sense to you, you have the right to judge my beliefs by your own opinions and conversations of them and continue with your own beliefs, since everyone has a right to their own beliefs IMHO as long as they don't harm others. And I believe that any of man's opinions or beliefs are not infallible including their religious or non-religious beliefs.
    • Weezer
      Some good points.  It looks like shame has taken on a more intense meaning in our culture than it had way back when.
    • moxieflux66
      Shame as a means toward personal growth and rethinking an uncomfortable subject.    https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/shame-better-person-160014144.html?    
    • Casualfanboy16
      Honestly am wondering the same thing...   
    • TheRedneckProfessor
      Again, the bible is not being accepted into evidence.  You cannot claim that the bible is filled with contradictions and inconsistencies, and then expect to use it as an authoritative source of reliable information.  This leaves every assertion you have made above completely unfounded.  Please support these assertions with something beyond more assertions and something more reliable than the bible, which cannot be taken literally, by your own admission.    Please also explain how god is omnipresent (present everywhere at all times) if hell exists outside of his presence.   And, please, explain as well how god can be omnibenevolent (all loving at all times) if his love does not extend to everyone, including those who disobey him.  How can omnibenevolence be conditional, contingent upon obedience?  Perhaps you misunderstand the prefix omni?    
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      Here because I want to see what more is out there. 
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    • Casualfanboy16

      Casualfanboy16

      Happy New Year to my fellow heathens!!! Hope everyone has a fantastic new year and 2024 goes well for all people here! My New Year's resolution is to get a better sleep schedule (I'm not failing shhhhh! 🤫)
       
      Here's to a great 2024!! 🥳🍻🎊🎉
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