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    •  Many apologists will say that the arguments for God’s existence should be seen as a cumulative case rather than any single argument being a reason for belief on its own. This is understandable as the majority of arguments for God are second hand inference, God of the gaps or incredulity based, so as evidence goes none of it should not be convincing on its own.

      The cumulative case works in both directions, as there are many reasons to disbelieve in a God’s existence, but any single argument may not be convincing on its own. With that in mind, here are a few of the more common reasons for disbelief and the rabbit hole of questions that these reasons lead to:  
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    • The evidence is clear that evil and suffering exist.
       
      The evidence that god exists?  No one really has any.
       
      Moreover, we know that even if a god does exist, evil and suffering obviously do not offend him.  If it did, he'd have put a stop to it by now.  After all, if he is omniscient, then he knows how much evil and suffering there is; and how broken and miserable it makes human existence.  If he really is omnibenevolent, then he wants to prevent his children from brokenness and misery.  If he really is omnipotent, then he has the ability to prevent the evil and suffering that causes brokenness and misery.  And if he really is omnipresent, then he is present every where that evil and suffering exist.
       
      If god is all of these things, and evil and suffering offend him, then why do evil and suffering continue to exist?  Why has he not moved to alleviate his own offense and save us all in the process? The simple fact that evil and suffering continue in this world is, in itself, evidence that god is not offended by it... or maybe god isn't the omni-max he's made out to be... or maybe god simply does not exist. 
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    • Animal suffering is a subject which I have thought of as simply a variation on the problem of suffering.  If God loved every one of His creations, then why would He set up a system where predators need to kill live prey to survive.  It's a system designed around killing, which is hard to reconcile with a loving, good God.
      However, I came across some other implications of animal suffering that expand the subject in several interesting ways.  The first was that if you are an old Earth creationist, so accept evolution, then the creation of every species that we see was guided by the principles of survival of the fittest, with evolutionary pressure being horrendous suffering (predation, disease, starvation, conflict etc).  The tool that God decided to use was untold misery for hundreds of millions of years, before we get to our current world of diverse life.
      The fact that thousands of T-Rex stalked the lands killing to survive, can't be seen as necessary, when they are all extinct long before His chosen people come along.  Hundreds of millions of years of creatures being torn limb from limb, before any of it mattered for our existence.  Why have that time period of suffering without benefit?
       
      I was talking to a vegan, who said God loves all of His creations, and believing that Christians should be vegan because killing His creations was against His will.  This just led to pointing to the horrors of the OT, where God requests burnt sacrifices on a regular basis, saying that the smell was pleasing to Him.  Or to the Israelites attacks on various cities, where they are told to kill all of the inhabitants, including the innocent animals.  King Saul even angered God for not murdering all of the animals, as some were taken as plunder.
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    • Hello,
      I guess our reasons for joining this site are slightly different for each person and yet perhaps desperation might be a common theme. So, with that said, a brief introduction. I have been involved with Christianity for many years. Out of sheer despair, I suppose I ended up finding this site. 
      Here is my experience with Christianity:
      The unhappiest times of my life were when I got myself involved in Christianity. I marvel at those who appear to be at ease with it all. I conclude, there's something wrong with me. 
      Never, have I felt more powerless, worthless, unfree. 
      • 9 replies
    • Failed prayer, the idea that there is an invisible being , listening to everyones thoughts is beyond laughable. 
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  • Recent Posts

    • Casualfanboy16
      I also agree with @TheRedneckProfessor because I was still messed up mentally and emotionally when I came to that conclusion. I think it really depends on the person.
    • TheRedneckProfessor
      I'm not sure I agree with this.  I was the farthest thing from logically minded or emotionally secure when I first came to the conclusion.  Logic and emotional stability have both been long-fought-for achievements that didn't even begin until much later.  Maybe I'm an outlier to an otherwise general rule.  I don't know.  I only know that my own experience was different. 
    • older
      I think much of this is culturally based. I recall hearing about a Native American tribe in the upper Midwest where they believed that it took more than one man to get a woman pregnant. A visitor hearing this, asked, "But how do you know who the father is?" The native replied, "We all love all of the children."
    • older
      I vote for "imposed." Read Howard Zinn's book, A People's History of the United States, and An Indigenous People's History of the United States, by Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz. These are not fun books. 
    • moxieflux66
      If not treating sex like it's normal isn't the answer, Weezer, then is the xtian way better? Pretend you can control it with religion and social rules, even laws that can put you in jail for having sex?  I don't think I understand what you're saying. 
    • Weezer
      Same here.  It seems to be the more logical minded and emotionally secure people who come to that conclusion.  (that things don't add up)
    • Weezer
      49 years ago when in graduate school, there were a few swingers in the class, and they made the same argument.  A group of us did some research on the matter including looking at different countries where it was more acceptable.  I don't remember everything about it after all those years, but remember us deciding that overall, in the long run in society, it had more downside than upside.  If participants in "swinging" or "polyamory" were highly educated about the need for STD protection and birth control, and were emotionally secure people, and totally honest with each other, it seemed to go fairly well.  The problem is, in society not many people meet all those qualifications.  If I remember correctly, jealousy eventually emerging was one of the things that was a problem.   Dishonesty also.  And at times in the heat of things STD protection and birth control was at times bi-passed.  And that can lead to health and legal problems, and unplanned pregnancy.   People often joke about unplanned pregnancies, but I could write a book about the personal, family and societal problems that can develop from them.   And a few of those stories are tragic.
    • Dsred19
      I never had a really traumatic experience with the church either. Just a constant nagging that grew over the years that things didn’t add up. 
    • pantheory
      Maybe they don't want to take you but feel it is/ was in your best interest. I went to a number of Christian churches, and invited to many others after I was an atheist. I sometimes went to evaluate human behavior and to learn more about the beliefs of different Christian religions. I never could detect bad motives of the Christians I met, as to my understands of them. They were always nice to me. Remember, they believe in heaven and are trying to help us get there.   Yes, it's all a joke, but not to them. They don't get the joke Many are not well  "attuned" to certain types of humor. One could look at life itself as a kind of joke 🤡 , having difficulty to stop laughing on occasion, while others having the same experiences could be down in the dumps of despair. But of course it's better to have the last laugh, since he who laughs last laughs the hardest, as the saying goes.
    • TheRedneckProfessor
      It made me think of the old one-liner:   Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?   Can't remember the source, though, or I'd give credit. 
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  • Recent Status Updates

    • Casualfanboy16

      Casualfanboy16

      If I go to Hell I want my preferred method of torture to be spun around and cooked like a silly little rotisserie chicken. 🍗
      · 0 replies
    • Casualfanboy16

      Casualfanboy16

      Y'all think God and Satan should just make tf up already and like maybe kiss with tongue or something? A little enemies-to-lovers character arc might do them some good. Just sayin'....
      · 0 replies
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