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      The Bible calls all those who do not believe in its god a fool.

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      The bulk of science does not support belief in a deity, or does it? This is an open discussion area to hone your skills at supporting and understanding the various positions. Feel free to post any links of value in this important topic.

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  • Our picks

    • Here's an interesting episode that breaks down popular fallacies that many theists who are knowledgeable about the arguments prefer to steer clear of: 
      • 3 replies
    • Fundamentalist Christians tend to say either you are a Christian or you are not a Christian.  That may be true for the irrational tribal identity of their churches, but it does not make sense in terms of philosophy and theology. If you read the Bible as deliberate metaphor, as symbolic allegory, not as literal history, then it is possible to retain the ethical value of the texts while accepting none of the surface claims.  The value of the Bible is enhanced by assuming the original authors did not intend that any of their supernatural poetry should be read as literal fact.
        • Like
      • 39 replies
    • One of the benefits of logic is the ability to test whether a particular proposition is true or not.  It often follows the progession: A=B, B=C, C does not equal D; therefore, the proposition that A=D is not likely to be true.  With this in mind, let's look at a particular proposition and follow the progression to its logical conclusion.  
      If logic is the absolute standard for reasoning , then everyone should either agree with the conclusion, or, if disagreeing, be able to point out a flaw in the logic.  Let's begin:
      PROPOSITION: god is both all-loving and all-powerful. 
      OBSERVATION: Evil exists
      A. If god is both able and willing to prevent evil, then evil would not exist.
      B. If god is neither able nor willing to prevent evil, then god is neither all-loving nor all-powerful. 
      1. If god is able to prevent evil, but not willing to, then god is not all-loving. 
      2. If god is willing to prevent evil, but not able to, then god is not all-powerful.
      CONCLUSION: The proposition that god is both all-loving and all-powerful is not true.
      DISCUSSION: It is possible that god is all-loving but not all-powerful.  It is possible that god is all-powerful but not all-loving.  It is possible that god is neither all-loving nor all-powerful, which raises the question: why worship god?
      But it is not possible for god to be both all-loving and all-powerful. 
        • Thanks
        • Like
      • 85 replies
    • My ex christian beliefs are as follows in 10 simple points, each of which has been the focus of one debate / discussion or another around here: 
      1 ) I believe that all religions are man made social constructs geared towards politicizing ancient mythology and folklore. 
      2 ) I believe that no one really knows with certainty the answer to the question of origins or destination. 
      3 ) I believe that the bible is demonstrably false from the outset as a guide to the truth of the universe or the human condition. 
      4 ) I believe that anything basing itself on the assumption that the bible is true is automatically false, as the bible is demonstrably false. 
      5 ) I believe that morality is an evolved concept which continues to evolve and has never been static or handed down from on high. 
      6 ) I believe that the morality of the biblical writings is long since outdated and mostly irrelevant to modern society. 
      7 ) I believe that modern scholarship has revealed the truth about the biblical writings and the evolving theistic concepts contained therein. 
      8 ) I believe that it's both intellectually honest and well intended to expose what truths can be demonstrated about the bible and christianity, through counter apologetics. 
      9 ) I believe that as painful as it may be at times, it's ultimately for the greater good that christianity and similar religions are losing membership and declining into the future under the weight of their own growing lack of relevance. 
      10 ) I believe that humanity doesn't need the fluff and circus show of religion in order for people to do what's right, be decent, and get along. 
      What do you believe???? 
        • Thanks
        • Like
      • 71 replies
    • Is there sufficient evidence to believe complex life could have evolved on its own from non-life without some intelligent creative force?  Is it at all plausible that some intelligent being, perhaps from another universe, could have been the creator of the complex life on our planet (and any other planet in this universe that may have complex life) using evolution as a tool? 
      • 67 replies
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    • Thinking a little more about the either/or choice you offered me, Duderonomy...     Do you have faith that the earth revolves around the sun, or do you believe it does?      I think you've committed a logical fallacy.   https://www.logical-fallacy.com/articles/false-dilemma/     Thank you,   Walter.
    • Let's be as accurate as we can here Duderonomy, so that neither of us is left in any doubt.    What I actually said (and what is meant) is that when it comes to our secular confidence you and I are alike.  Therefore, in that context (and that context alone) if you claimed that you don't have that same secular confidence THAT is what I couldn't accept from you on faith.  I'd need evidence from you that you and I are not alike on this one issue.   Please don't take what I wrote as a catchall statement that I don't accept anything that you say on faith.   I might accept some things from you on faith, but that would be on a case by case basis.     I have secular confidence in the scientific evidence that the Earth revolves around the Sun.   Provided that this is taken into account I'm happy to say that I believe it does.   But my use of the word this belief here carries no religious, supernatural or theological connotations.   Nor would I use the word faith here, for the same reason.   Thank you,   Walter.  
    • Me too. From now on I'll spell it "Phat Buddha".
    • Walter,   You say you don't accept what I say on faith.  Interesting.    But enough of this. Let's get back to the OP.   Do you have faith that the earth revolves around the sun, or do you believe it does? 
    • Weezer, you're correct. I meant to say "fuckin" assumption.   No one is perfect son, save the Lord himself. I should have told you this when you were younger.   I'm sorry I let you down.    
    • Cool enough. As a research scientists I can explain a great many things to you about the pros and cons of today's science.  Aprendi espanol en la escuela, y hablo y escribo bien, pero tal vez menos que perfecto.   Yes, there is a lack of unified theory in science, which is good IMO so that alternative ideas can surface to challenge mainstream theory, which in modern physics I believe there are many problems.   Yes, BAA traded in religion for science, which I generally applaud, but BAA thought that the purpose here was to help those who were injured by religion in the past to escape without looking back. He didn't like my suggesting problems with mainstream science theory since he thought that would hurt his purpose of helping those trying to leave religion via science.   His special interest was cosmology so he asked me to give a balanced perspective of alternatives in my postings which I agreed to do.   Walter is similar to BAA is such ways but maybe even more confrontational. But BAA and I, now Walter and I are coming to terms with less conflict. As I recall you have gone to the Questions Forum before and asked about dark matter one time. They no longer allow much argument in the science vs. religion forum so I think the best place to go would be to the Questions forum, or the Rants and Replies forum  I will start a thread for us in the Questions Forum based upon your last posting.   I put your questions above in the Questions Forum. Check it out. See if this is good for you? I like this better than the Colosseum for questions because one can express different opinions as long as religious arguments are not part of it. As for myself, I'm not so fond of arguments since I was once a teacher of college students.   cheers again Edgarcito  
    • I'm remembering the silence in Revelation 8...
    • No, I don't have any problem with you...you even recognized the Spanish version of little Edgar.  How can I discount a guy like that lol.  Walter on the other hand seems to have a need to deflect rather than just be straightforward.  Everyone can believe as they wish....I'm too old now to give a shit.  I guess it's just a matter of time for people to feel comfortable in their beliefs.  The Prof has his moments, but Walter is still wavering in insecurity.  And Wheezer, I actually have compassion for people in his shoes, but just don't care for whatever vibe he's putting out.  Not sure I can put my finger on it.   I looked a small bit at the UP and have a cursory takeaway....heavy on cursory.  Please excuse my ignorance, but I had an idea that at the quantum level, perhaps there is less interference than at a macro level....maybe "classical" has too much, again, interference, to match the quantum level.  Just shit that runs through my brain....maybe totally out in left field.  My brain also wants to associate 100% certainty with lack of choice and uncertainty with choice/ free will.  Maybe I just need to start a thread in the coliseum to keep WALTER'S BULLSHIT out of the discussion.  He's so very close to a reincarnation of Mark (BAA), it's scary.  I think you and BAA had your differences if I'm remembering correctly.     No, I'm not scared of intellect, I just wish I had more and had the time and inclination to delve into things like the lack of a unified theory.  My dad was a pretty sharp guy, and was a university professor, but had a knack for using his intellect as a weapon rather than a gift.  I'm not as sharp as he was, but throw spears nonetheless.  I'm sure it's an acceptance issue in that he did not hand out much acceptance other than intellectual...   You might ask him the same type of direct question.....why he's such a prick.
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