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    •  Many apologists will say that the arguments for God’s existence should be seen as a cumulative case rather than any single argument being a reason for belief on its own. This is understandable as the majority of arguments for God are second hand inference, God of the gaps or incredulity based, so as evidence goes none of it should not be convincing on its own.

      The cumulative case works in both directions, as there are many reasons to disbelieve in a God’s existence, but any single argument may not be convincing on its own. With that in mind, here are a few of the more common reasons for disbelief and the rabbit hole of questions that these reasons lead to:  
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    • The evidence is clear that evil and suffering exist.
      The evidence that god exists?  No one really has any.
      Moreover, we know that even if a god does exist, evil and suffering obviously do not offend him.  If it did, he'd have put a stop to it by now.  After all, if he is omniscient, then he knows how much evil and suffering there is; and how broken and miserable it makes human existence.  If he really is omnibenevolent, then he wants to prevent his children from brokenness and misery.  If he really is omnipotent, then he has the ability to prevent the evil and suffering that causes brokenness and misery.  And if he really is omnipresent, then he is present every where that evil and suffering exist.
      If god is all of these things, and evil and suffering offend him, then why do evil and suffering continue to exist?  Why has he not moved to alleviate his own offense and save us all in the process? The simple fact that evil and suffering continue in this world is, in itself, evidence that god is not offended by it... or maybe god isn't the omni-max he's made out to be... or maybe god simply does not exist. 
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    • Animal suffering is a subject which I have thought of as simply a variation on the problem of suffering.  If God loved every one of His creations, then why would He set up a system where predators need to kill live prey to survive.  It's a system designed around killing, which is hard to reconcile with a loving, good God.
      However, I came across some other implications of animal suffering that expand the subject in several interesting ways.  The first was that if you are an old Earth creationist, so accept evolution, then the creation of every species that we see was guided by the principles of survival of the fittest, with evolutionary pressure being horrendous suffering (predation, disease, starvation, conflict etc).  The tool that God decided to use was untold misery for hundreds of millions of years, before we get to our current world of diverse life.
      The fact that thousands of T-Rex stalked the lands killing to survive, can't be seen as necessary, when they are all extinct long before His chosen people come along.  Hundreds of millions of years of creatures being torn limb from limb, before any of it mattered for our existence.  Why have that time period of suffering without benefit?
      I was talking to a vegan, who said God loves all of His creations, and believing that Christians should be vegan because killing His creations was against His will.  This just led to pointing to the horrors of the OT, where God requests burnt sacrifices on a regular basis, saying that the smell was pleasing to Him.  Or to the Israelites attacks on various cities, where they are told to kill all of the inhabitants, including the innocent animals.  King Saul even angered God for not murdering all of the animals, as some were taken as plunder.
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    • Hello,
      I guess our reasons for joining this site are slightly different for each person and yet perhaps desperation might be a common theme. So, with that said, a brief introduction. I have been involved with Christianity for many years. Out of sheer despair, I suppose I ended up finding this site. 
      Here is my experience with Christianity:
      The unhappiest times of my life were when I got myself involved in Christianity. I marvel at those who appear to be at ease with it all. I conclude, there's something wrong with me. 
      Never, have I felt more powerless, worthless, unfree. 
      • 9 replies
    • Failed prayer, the idea that there is an invisible being , listening to everyones thoughts is beyond laughable. 
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  • Recent Posts

    • moxieflux66
      That sounds to me like a whole lot'a sinnin' and debauchery! 😈
    • Casualfanboy16
    • Edgarcito
      Not at all what I asked.  Please answer the question.
    • walterpthefirst
      Or I see clearly what is emotionally unacceptable to you, Ed.     And yes, its getting late here, so...     Good night.
    • walterpthefirst
      So who is doing the evil here, Ed?   Do you think it was good of god for him to deny us our free will and choose who will go to heaven and who won't? Do you think it was good of god to entrap his two children this way, by giving them a command they couldn't obey? Do you think it was good of god to allow Satan to harm them by tempting them to disobey him? Do you think it was good of god to leave Satan unchained, when the other fallen angels were chained up? Do you think it was good of god to knowingly spoil and ruin his own 'very good' creation as part of his plan? Do you think it was good of god to not explain to Adam and Eve what death was? Do you think it was good of god to add his curses to the punishment (death) he said he would give them? Do you think it was good of god to inflict pain, disease and death on generations on unborn people for what Adam did? Do you think it was good of god to deny Adam and Eve the possibility of reconciliation with him during their lifetimes? Do you think it was good of god to burn billions of people in hell forever so that others can dwell in heaven forever?   Do you think all of these things, which can only be laid at god's door (the buck stops here) are good?   Really?   You're happy to worship a god who would do all of this 'good'?
    • Edgarcito
      I think you’re hardened by your subjection Walter.  Visit w you another time, thx.
    • Edgarcito
      If it’s necessary that everyone be bound to evil that they might be saved, how is that evil?  Saved= evil?
    • walterpthefirst
      Not exactly.   If you thought that god gave the Law to the Jews to make them righteous in his sight, think again.  He gave it to them so that their disobedience (trespass) would increase.  The Law justifies nobody.  It was given so that god's grace would increase.   Romans 5 : 18 - 21   18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.  19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,  21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.   The one trespass in verse 18 is Adam's one act of disobedience.  The one righteous act is Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.  Through Adam's act of disobedience, all were made sinners and through Jesus sacrifice many will be made righteous.   Where sin increases, so does god's grace.   And this neatly explains why he caused Adam and Eve to disobey him.  So that his grace to everyone might increase.  The key point to grasp is that without guilt, there is no possibility of mercy and forgiveness.  So god could not have shown his mercy to the innocent Adam and Eve if they had remained innocent.   He HAD to make them guilty of just one act of disobedience.  That's all he needed.  Once he had that in his pocket his plan was up and running.     And yes, god's a crafty bastard.  Look how easily he played Satan, letting him do the tempting and keeping his own hands clean.
    • Edgarcito
      I think we can agree there is good and evil in this world.  How is good achieved if we are bound to disobeying. God interjects good into  our midst to make us look even worse?  The crafty bastard that you insist he is….
    • walterpthefirst
      You wanted to know how Satan entered Eden.   I've just told you why.   But I can still tell you how, if you'd like to know.   I have the chapter and verse to hand.   Please let me know.
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    • Casualfanboy16


      Y'all think God and Satan should just make tf up already and like maybe kiss with tongue or something? A little enemies-to-lovers character arc might do them some good. Just sayin'....
      · 0 replies
    • TheBluegrassSkeptic


      I'm feeling overwhelmingly somber after seeing the results of the European elections today. So much hate coming to the EU with extremist false promises deluding the public with nationalist ideas wrapped up in golden foil and labeled as revolution.
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