Animal suffering

[Wertbag]

Animal suffering is a subject which I have thought of as simply a variation on the problem of suffering.  If God loved every one of His creations, then why would He set up a system where predators need to kill live prey to survive.  It's a system designed around killing, which is hard to reconcile with a loving, good God.

However, I came across some other implications of animal suffering that expand the subject in several interesting ways.  The first was that if you are an old Earth creationist, so accept evolution, then the creation of every species that we see was guided by the principles of survival of the fittest, with evolutionary pressure being horrendous suffering (predation, disease, starvation, conflict etc).  The tool that God decided to use was untold misery for hundreds of millions of years, before we get to our current world of diverse life.

The fact that thousands of T-Rex stalked the lands killing to survive, can't be seen as necessary, when they are all extinct long before His chosen people come along.  Hundreds of millions of years of creatures being torn limb from limb, before any of it mattered for our existence.  Why have that time period of suffering without benefit?

 

I was talking to a vegan, who said God loves all of His creations, and believing that Christians should be vegan because killing His creations was against His will.  This just led to pointing to the horrors of the OT, where God requests burnt sacrifices on a regular basis, saying that the smell was pleasing to Him.  Or to the Israelites attacks on various cities, where they are told to kill all of the inhabitants, including the innocent animals.  King Saul even angered God for not murdering all of the animals, as some were taken as plunder.

Then you have the priest's blood rituals given in great detail.  How to kill the animal, smearing its blood on your body parts and across the altar, removing its organs to be discarded or burnt depending on which part it was.

And of course, if you believe in a literal global flood, then God wiped out millions of innocent animals solely to punish the humans.

 

The other related topic was parasites.  There are some truly horrific creatures that God has created to torment humans and animals alike; bot flies, eye worms, guinea worms, ticks etc.  They are lifeforms that require inflicting suffering on larger animals to complete their life cycle.  Why would an all-loving God create eye worms?  If this is His creation, and He is all-loving and all-powerful, then wiping out such parasites would remove vast amounts of suffering.  A simple thing for God to do, but He seems fine to sit back and allow such horrors to be inflicted daily upon His children.  We can hope science will wipe out these horrors, the way prayer never will.  

[TABA]

The suffering of animals is a subject that deserves more attention, and I appreciate @Wertbagbringing it up.  I think it’s one of the most difficult dilemmas for christians to answer. 
 

A case could be made that a lot of human suffering is self-inflicted: do stupid things, win stupid prizes.  Abuse your body and you get sick.  Or be a selfish moron and end up isolated and friendless.  
 

Suffering because of the actions of another is a bit harder to explain, but the free-will argument is used.  Yet in Heaven, presumably, humans don’t harm one another, so maybe god takes away your free will when you go to Heaven, and this is good, but to similarly prevent evil on earth is considered unacceptable by believers.  
So much for the free-will argument. 
 

Maybe humans experience suffering only because of the Fall, because of the actions of two people in the Garden of Eden.  Many thousands of years later, this god still allows generation after generation to be born, knowing many will suffer horribly.  Even two thousand years after Jesus supposedly solved the problem, the suffering goes on.  Evidently god’s appetite for human suffering is still not satisfied.  
 

But when it comes to the suffering experienced by animals, it gets even harder for the theist to explain.  How are antelopes responsible for the sin of Adam?  Why is it that most animal deaths are not sudden but long, painful and miserable?  
 

I guess the Christian’s answer is that somehow all this suffering is necessary because of the actions of humans thousands of years ago.  That’s the best they can come up with.  
 

Where I live, it is heavily forested and deer are everywhere.  Having no natural predators since wolves and other large carnivores were wiped out, most deer die slowly from disease or starvation, or getting hit by cars.  In the latter case, the animal may be fortunate to die instantly, but too often it staggers away into the woods to die painfully hours or days later.  On several occasions I have seen police officers or ordinary citizens shoot such animals to quickly end their suffering.  
 

Then there is hunting.  Most of my friends and coworkers hunt deer and other animals at this time of year, with rifles or bows.  Many thousands of deer are killed by hunters in this state alone each year.  Without such hunting, the incidences of deaths by disease, hunger or vehicle strikes would increase astronomically.  Most hunted deer is butchered and the meat either brought home or donated.   Little goes to waste.  
 

Great emphasis is placed on achieving a quick kill.  A hunter who only wounds a deer will make every effort to keep it in sight and kill it as soon as possible.   A hunter who doesn’t bother to do this is treated as an asshole.  
 

I could give many other examples of human concern for the suffering of animals and efforts to alleviate it.  Concern for the well-being of animals has only advanced as human society has developed and even as humans have become less religious.  Humans, with all their flaws, doing their best to ease the suffering of other creatures.  
 

So how is it that humans often go to great lengths to ease or prevent the suffering of animals, yet the suffering continues in the presence of a supposedly loving god?  It seems that god’s desire to inflict punishment on all of creation is far from being sated, Jesus or no Jesus. 

[walterpthefirst]

I apologise in advance if this video offends or upsets.

 

But if you watch it to the gruesome end you will see what an excellent point Wertbag has made about animal suffering.

 

Spoiler (if you don't want to watch):

The video was shot on the Indonesian island of Komodo and shows one of the huge Komodo dragon lizards attacking and tearing a goat apart.  The poor goat remains conscious and in agony as it's internal organs are ripped out and eaten.  Again, please don't watch this if you are sensitive about these things!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r31Um_IQAzM&t=1s   

 

What happens in this video is nothing new or special.  It happens millions of times every day, all across the world as animals eat and are eaten.  Nature is red in tooth and claw. 

 

But what is the caring and loving god doing to alleviate this suffering?

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

  

[Myrkhoos]

At least the folks who believe in reincarnation in animals as well have a sort of explanation for this:))

[Margee]

This topic of animal suffering was always included with my doubts about the biblical bible god. Even to this day, it tears me apart inside to think of the human and animal suffering. Just horrible. Ugg. Great topic. Surely, the christians would see this?? But I know they push it aside like I did when I was a christian when the pastor would tell me not to question things.

[★ Citsonga ★]

On 11/23/2022 at 2:18 AM, Wertbag said:

if you are an old Earth creationist, so accept evolution, 

 

Clarification: Old earth creationists do not accept evolution; they hold firmly to creation but not the young earth timeline. Christians who accept evolution are theistic evolutionists, not old earth creationists.

 

Otherwise, great points.

[Wertbag]

2 hours ago, Citsonga said:

 

Clarification: Old earth creationists do not accept evolution; they hold firmly to creation but not the young earth timeline. Christians who accept evolution are theistic evolutionists, not old earth creationists.

 

Otherwise, great points.

True, I always thought of it as those who deny abiogenesis but accept evolution over long timeframes, but as with any position there are a large range of opinions.  The Google result I got says "Old Earth creationism is a form of creationism which includes gap creationism, progressive creationism, and theistic evolution." so they see it as an umbrella term covering any belief with big timeframes and God at the start, but due to how vague this is they use more accurate terms to pick between ideas:

 

Gap Creation - The idea there is a split between the two creation stories because there was a gap between first and second creation.

Progressive Creation - That God started creating but Genesis never says He couldn't create more, so new species are later creation events.

Theistic evolution - Science is right but God did it.  This can split further by those who apply that to the universe or just to life, and whether it is guided every step of the way or if God just lit the fuse and let natural processes take it from there.

Day-Age Creation - The term for day in Genesis actually means any length of time, so the 6 days in Genesis can mean whatever timeframe you require.

 

The false dichotomy used by YEC's becomes quite apparent, when they say its science vs YEC, evolution vs creation or believers vs scientists, yet when you look at the range of beliefs many Christians will take a middle ground approach, accepting science but putting God at the helm.

 

[pantheory]

My mentality is akin to that of a vegan. Although I am not a vegan, I very much dislike animal cruelty and sufferings since I believe humans are just another animal and we all know what pain and suffering is like. For this reason I'm a vegetarian, the other reason being personal health.  I eat no meat of any kind and won't even kill a fly, mosquito, ant or cockroach unless it trespasses into my home and there are more than just one. I do eat unfertilized eggs which could never become a chicken, and dairy products which could never become a cow. I am pretty much a passivist excepting when  hit or attacked.