Sheldon Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 It's incredibly nice of you to care so much about her, and because you care about her I want to ask: you do know you can't save people from themselves, right? If you aren't fucking the person in question and you didn't give birth to her, be careful about just how much you get personally invested with her well-being. It's sad to me that someone would sacrifice their future over their faith I see your point. I'm not that invested in her. She is simply someone with promise wasted. I had hoped for a simple 1,2,3 step "look here" type of answer. Obviously it's not that clear cut. And, it certainly seems that a simple, concise answer to my question is impossible at this time. I'll take your advice and let here ruin her life. I see the point in the "let her be" posts, and that does have validity, if you try to expose her too much of how she is going down the wrong path, she will probably become more resistant than you would if she kept trying to convert you. I would say, try to be there for her as much as you can, be an example to her, and once she begins to trust you/know you more, very subtly start bringing up some points of Christianity that you want to discuss with her, in ways that will get her to think more critically about her faith. Approach it as "I have a question about (fill in the blank)". Make her think, make her question her life choices with regard to her faith. When I was in my doubting stage I had a Wiccan friend that I had some friendly discussions/debates about Christianity, we knew each other well enough to know that we shouldn't try to "convert" each other, and knew that wasn't the intention, but I trusted her enough to talk about my doubts, and she didn't mince words about her issues with Christianity. It's different approaching the subject when you have that kind of relationship, as opposed to someone you barely know.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheldon Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 My two cents: How much of the real world has she experienced at 22? The real world, the one outside my home town, school and country, is what REALLY nailed it for me that God doesn't exist. At such a young age, she really doesn't understand how the world works yet. I would just expose her as much as possible to the realities of life and let nature take its course. If she is as bright as she seems, this God delusion won't last very long once she starts getting out there. I'm 23, that's somewhat along the lines of how it happened for me, for the most part, but it happened in my own hometown.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I know someone who gave a copy of The God Delusion to a bible-thumper as a joke. The next time they spoke the bible-thumper was an atheist. If only it always worked like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notmohammad Posted May 3, 2013 Author Share Posted May 3, 2013 Just a quick follow up. My friend is failing badly, AND I was right, it's due to a distorted version of Christian faith. The "God will fulfill my dreams" attitude has led her to move to distant cities repeatedly, in search of "success" and a mate. All of that was based on the superstition that success lies in a different location and that is "God's will". I did try to explain that "you make your own way" and that you won't become (for example) a qualified medical doctor without proper education. It won't just fall into your lap. Life does not often work that way. I even tried "God helps those who help themselves". People can really be misled by a bad pastor, bad parents or bad religious guidance. It also illustrates how little "facts" matter to some people. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeker001 Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 It is nice to see you are so willing to help her out. Personally - I'd tell her some of those little "God helps those who help themselves" stories.A big storm approaches. The weatherman urges everyone to get out of town. The priest says, "I won't worry, God will save me". The morning of the storm, the police go through the neighborhood with a sound truck telling everyone to evacuate. The priest says "I won't worry, God will save me". The storm drains back up and there is an inch of water standing in the street. A fire truck comes by to pick up the priest. He tells them "Don't worry, God will save me." The water rises another foot. A National Guard truck comes by to rescue the priest. He tells them "Don't worry, God will save me."The water rises some more. The priest is forced up to his roof. A boat comes by to rescue the priest. He tells them "Don't worry, God will save me." The water rises higher. The priest is forced up to the very top of his roof. A helicopter comes to rescue the priest. He shouts up at them "Don't worry, God will save me."The water rises above his house, and the priest drowns. When he gets up to heaven he says to God "I've been your faithful servant ever since I was born! Why didn't you save me?"God replies "First I sent you a weatherman, fire truck, then the national guard, then a boat, and then a helicopter. What more do you want from me!!??" I think this is the best approach. Play this card hard. Even if there is a God, isn't it selfish to rely on him to hand everything to people on a silver platter. Eventually, there does come a point where the young need to leave the nest and become self sufficient. God has millions of other souls out there and there are other people who need work and are competing for the same position, why would he favor her when the boss needs to pick the best person for the job. Wouldn't God help the boss chose the one who is the most qualified? God has given her the chance to work her and earn her way to becoming the qualified women she can. Ask her why squander the opportunity when God has given her the chance to earn her way to greatness. We're all given the life and God has given us a chance to make the best life we can for ourselves, life is not always going to work out so we need to take advantage of the opportunities in front of us. Sometimes, this requires using our own judgement and trusting ourselves. God has billions of other people out there with competing desires, sometimes we need to be the ones to take the initiative and advocate for ourselves. The world doesn't just revolve around us. ----------------- Plus, when people are rooted in there faith they are not going to listen to any criticism because it has become a part of who they are. However, seeds of doubt can be planted if done subtly and gently. Do not give her any reason to be on the defensive. If you can debate with her a little and get her to evaluate her beliefs. Nurture her sense of curiosity to get outside her bubble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantophobia Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 "Is there a good way to deconvert others?" No. First, I don't think discussion of religion and her personal beliefs has any business in a workplace situation. If her beliefs are holding her back professionally, she will have to learn that herself. Second, it's not your business what she believes or how she believes it, any more than, when we were Christians, it was our business to go in with guns blazing to "convert" non-believers. Just as when many of us discovered Jeeezus, we are all excited by our deconverted liberation and want to witness about it. But don't. It's not going to magically work any more than a Christian coming here to witness to us will magically work, either. It's just disrespectful, intrusive, and offputting. Third, if you are really concerned about this person's job and future in the field, take her beliefs off the table. Provide career insight and examples, not spiritual ones. The whole dynamic is a problematic one. Your role (especially if you are interacting in a professional setting) is not to provide anti-spiritual help, any more than it should be to provide spiritual help. Do your job, and help her do hers if she asks for guidance in the field. The rest is none of your business. I had hoped for a simple 1,2,3 step "look here" type of answer. Obviously it's not that clear cut. And, it certainly seems that a simple, concise answer to my question is impossible at this time. I'll take your advice and let here ruin her life. Funny, that's what most of us are looking for and are promised with Christianity, too. And how'd that go for most of us? We're all here because we discovered that there is no one simple OSFA clear-cut answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadrunner Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 I think everybody has a weak spot somewhere in their belief system that they would never reveal and they probably aren't aware that its even there. Its what they push to the back of their mind. Whether or not they are bold enough to look into it is another story. I haven't head a better analogy than 3vid3nc3's 'megabelief' explanation & Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpiritualPilgrim Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 What unintentionally worked for me was I read the Bible through in a year. "Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." - Isaac Asimov Yep, me too. I decided it was time to read through the entire Old Testament. That was what started it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kolaida Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 Just a quick follow up. My friend is failing badly, AND I was right, it's due to a distorted version of Christian faith. The "God will fulfill my dreams" attitude has led her to move to distant cities repeatedly, in search of "success" and a mate. All of that was based on the superstition that success lies in a different location and that is "God's will". I did try to explain that "you make your own way" and that you won't become (for example) a qualified medical doctor without proper education. It won't just fall into your lap. Life does not often work that way. I even tried "God helps those who help themselves". People can really be misled by a bad pastor, bad parents or bad religious guidance. It also illustrates how little "facts" matter to some people. Unfortunately, I can relate to your friend all too well. My bad advice was mostly given to me through my religious (and selfish) parents. And, as you pointed out in another post, it became a huge waste of time. I missed out on education and training, moved around with my family, all the while thinking and believing that "God would provide." After several years of this nonsense (and a lot of other stuff combined, but this was probably the driving force as I solidly believe if I had completed my schooling and training and not moved around, I would be a missionary/teacher right now. As for how long, I don't know. But I have no doubt that's where I'd be at), I lost my faith and separated myself miles and miles away from my family as I realized their beliefs were essentially harmful to me being able to lead a happy and fulfilling life, which was actually a pretty devastating and depressing belief, but at least I was able to accept reality. Hopefully, your friend will come around. I had one friend that was like you and tried to convince me over and over again not to move and not to give up my education and even offered to let me live with her and her family free until I found a place instead of moving with my family, but I was so religiously oriented at the time. Now, I look back and just see a giant wasted opportunity and a huge waste of time. But I guess a couple good things did come out of it, not much but a couple. It's bad to focus on the past, anyway. I think you are sweet for trying. I think one day she will look back and desperately wish she'd taken your advice much like I do with my own friend. But it'll always be something people gotta find out for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 Karen Armstrongs "A History of God" leave it lying around. Anything from Evidence3 (?) on youtube. Stay non - judgemental, and available, and honest. The rest is up to her. For me it was actually studying the Bible with an open mind... horrific stuff that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gall Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 So let me get this straight. She thinks she's so extra EXTRA special that God's gonna magic a perfect life right into her hands? I suggest you tell her to look around her congregation and see how many other extra special Christians are out of work and struggling to make ends meet, or stuck in less-than-satisfying marriages. Does she think God abandoned all these people to bumble through life on their own, but He's gonna give it all to her on a platter? A former co-worker of mine, an excellent project manager with years of experience AND a fundamentalist, was laid off 18 months ago and still hasn't found work. He's also married to a lunatic shrew of a woman. He still holds to his faith, but he's definitely hating life these days. Your friend doesn't need to be deconverted. She just needs to have her eyes opened to the fact that, whatever her religious beliefs might be, if she sits around expecting it all to be done for her without any effort on her part, or without excercising her own judgement regarding a suitable life partner, she's going to be VERY dissappointed. Funny thing about all of this is god demanded labor in various ways from his followers all throughout the bible but I find that most modern christians seem to think that means they can just stand with their hand out waiting for that life to fall into it because their dealer laid it on them. only the ignorant or rich entitled act this way and actually believe they are right. The rest just act entitled and know they don't deserve it and laugh at you when you give it up anyway. Sounds like he needs to survey his standards and maybe get a job in another field. Oh and the shrew maybe he could "tame" her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonkeyman Posted September 22, 2013 Share Posted September 22, 2013 Tell her to read Genesis to chapter 18. Then tell her to summarise seriously by the time I read genesis I became an athiest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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