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Pray For Our Troops


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#1 antix

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:38 PM

Churches have been doing this for ever, but let us look at WW2. America, France, England, Greece Christian

Germany, Spain, Italy Christian.


See the illogic
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#2 mymistake

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 06:07 PM

I de-converted about a year and a half ago. So all through the War on Terror my Bible study would pray for our troops' safety. And every week gawd had a different plan. He is so mysterious . . . pretending that he doesn't exist so that prayers can be answered "NO" so that our faith is tested so that we can marvel at the mystery of gawd.
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#3 Vigile

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 08:34 PM

Curious that god's power has always to be enforced with human made weapons. Equally curious that religious folks are always the hawkish ones in the crowd. Without these dimwits, I suspect militaries might find themselves having a harder time meeting their recruitment goals.
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#4 Thurisaz

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 09:49 PM

I wish those soldiers who (all too often naively) think they're doing the right thing, to protect their people and such, the best... and I despise those who are high enough up the ladder that they have the truth right in front of them, and those at the foot of the ladder who give in to vile drives.

In US terms (inasmuch as I can use them correctly), the counry kid spoon-fed with claims like "them ebil muslims want to destroy our freedom" and such is likely to get some sympathy from me as I see him as victim; his buddy who joined to "kill heathens" or just to have a way to indulge in petty sadism fantasies gets my enmity. Let alone their superiors who see what wars are really all about, unless they already think about how to best desert the flag.
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Debussy didn't believe in God. He didn't believe in the establishment. He didn't believe in burgeois convention. He didn't believe in Beethoven or Wagner. He believed in... Debussy.

(The Art of Noise, "The holy egoism of genius", from the CD "The seduction of Claude Debussy")

#5 Vigile

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 01:18 AM

I wish those soldiers who (all too often naively) think they're doing the right thing, to protect their people and such, the best... and I despise those who are high enough up the ladder that they have the truth right in front of them, and those at the foot of the ladder who give in to vile drives.


Remarque captured this idea so well in All Quiet on the Western Front, where his protagonist realizes that all the young foot soldiers are just fighting for the same reasons and that those he is asked to kill are just like he himself.

Most people aren't wired to kill unless they think they are protecting friends and family or fighting for a higher cause like a god, so the country/military has to create that idea in young people.
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It is lamentable, that to be a good patriot one must become the enemy of the rest of mankind.
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#6 Thurisaz

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 10:47 AM

'zacly.

See also the confessions of quite a few death's head squadsmen of 3rd reich days who weren't "evil by nature" at all but felt urged on by peer pressure. Ya know, "Man you're not going to be a pussy now that our Vaterland is fighting for its very survival are you?! ARE YOU?!".

Kind of telling, if you ask me, that pows didn't say their drill instructors made them do things, but their buddies. Posted Image

Indeed, few (if any) people at all are "born evil". Unless they're called Michael Myers and star in crappy movies.

(Before anyone gets me wrong, I'm not claiming that all the SS camp staff was really innocent pushed-on normal folks... but neither were they all monsters.)
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Debussy didn't believe in God. He didn't believe in the establishment. He didn't believe in burgeois convention. He didn't believe in Beethoven or Wagner. He believed in... Debussy.

(The Art of Noise, "The holy egoism of genius", from the CD "The seduction of Claude Debussy")

#7 mymistake

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 11:23 AM

I think you are trying to get at how average people are influenced to do evil deeds. Belief and peer pressure are part of it.
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/\/\.  /\/\.

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#8 TrailBlazer

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 01:06 PM

I think you are trying to get at how average people are influenced to do evil deeds. Belief and peer pressure are part of it.

Experiments by S. Milgrim and P. Zimbardo look more deeply into explaining the "evil human nature" phenomena. (http://en.wikipedia....ison_experiment)

My bf is currently deployed. He talks about how they shove religion down their throats a lot. Supposedly it instills a sense of unity among the troops as well as provides a strong hope for soldiers. He's an atheist, so all the religion talk kind of annoys him.
So many people ask me to "tell him that we're praying for him", as if prayer will somehow make him feel any better about his situation.
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#9 BMandeville

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 09:56 PM

It's really not a big step to go from god-worship to military-worship. It's been practiced for centuries, and is very convenient for those who seek to wage war. I wish religious folks knew just how blatantly their beliefs are abused and capitalized on to achieve a goal that has absolutely nothing to do with their faith. Abortion, contraception, so-called "just war," racism, totalitarianism, fascism, and even consumerism are great examples of this. "Praying for the troops" is stupid, lazy, and confounding; it's like we care about them enough to entrust their lives to some mythical being, but not quite enough to make the effort ourselves to keep them out of harm's way by not starting wars in the first place.
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#10 foolish girl

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:29 AM

The War Prayer, By Mark Twain....you want to read it! He is Brilliant, of course. http://warprayer.org/
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#11 mymistake

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:15 PM

The War Prayer, By Mark Twain....you want to read it! He is Brilliant, of course. http://warprayer.org/


Clemens uses a lot of Glory and Honor comments, for that is how men of his day framed war. The irony is that war itself is the real hell. Humans butchering other humans, hunting each other like we would animals is what inspired the religious concept of hell. So we use religion to send our young men to hell.

Edited by mymistake, 25 September 2012 - 11:15 AM.

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/\/\.  /\/\.

There's an elegant solution to most Bible problems.  The Bible is the word of ignorant men who couldn't agree with each other.


#12 foolish girl

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:57 PM


The War Prayer, By Mark Twain....you want to read it! He is Brilliant, of course. http://warprayer.org/


Clemens uses a lot of Glory and Honor comments, for that is how men of his day framed war. The irony is that war itself is the real hell. Humans butchering other humans, hunting each other like we would animals is what inspired the religious concept of hell. So in we use religion to send our young men to hell.


"That's Estute, I said" - Paul Simon.
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You only have to let the soft animal of your body love what it loves. ~Mary Oliver


#13 stryper

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:23 PM

that is so going up on my facebook wall.
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#14 SilentLoner

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 11:18 PM

I really don't understand where the military became a sacred cow. I mean, it got a lot of flack in the Vietnam era. Then after the Gulf war it seems it did a 180. Can someone explain that to me?
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#15 Vigile

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 11:47 PM

I really don't understand where the military became a sacred cow. I mean, it got a lot of flack in the Vietnam era. Then after the Gulf war it seems it did a 180. Can someone explain that to me?


And it used to be that the younger generation rebelled by shocking their parents with Alice Cooper, but with two generations of rebels as parents and grandparents, it seems kids these days can only shock their parents by listening to Justin Beiber and supporting the status quo.
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#16 Thurisaz

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:45 PM

My wild guess: Vietnam = epic fail. Gulf war could be sold as a success... kind of. No one likes losers.
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Debussy didn't believe in God. He didn't believe in the establishment. He didn't believe in burgeois convention. He didn't believe in Beethoven or Wagner. He believed in... Debussy.

(The Art of Noise, "The holy egoism of genius", from the CD "The seduction of Claude Debussy")

#17 ConureDelSol

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:45 PM

Reminds of Starship Troopers 3 (not based on the book) where in the end the new Sky Marshall realizes how much more control she can have over the Earth if they endorse religion and God.



Also, that fat guy in the wheelchair represents me after finishing watching that movie.
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#18 JoeCoastie

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 05:38 AM

I really don't understand where the military became a sacred cow. I mean, it got a lot of flack in the Vietnam era. Then after the Gulf war it seems it did a 180. Can someone explain that to me?

Seems like it all changed after 911.
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#19 Thurisaz

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 12:18 AM

I constantly feel reminded of a certain statement from a scifi story reading these postings.

I won't quote it here (it's German) but paraphrased it says that "after centuries of democracy, more and more people became simply incapable of imagining that basic rights like the right to free speech could be just taken away from them. All they saw was how charismatic and impressive the young dictator-to-be was and they gave them more and more votes...".

That doesn't tie in very obviously to the previous posting but as I see it... people long for two things in politics. These are freedom and security. If people get used to (at least the illusion of) freedom too much, they start to want more security. That this is incompatible with freedom is something that often escapes their notices, and there are always people out there who know of this psychological mechanism and are willing to exploit it to their own advantage.

And when they do, you get... well... you know what I mean.



(I hope. I probably didn't have enough coffee yet this morning :) )
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Debussy didn't believe in God. He didn't believe in the establishment. He didn't believe in burgeois convention. He didn't believe in Beethoven or Wagner. He believed in... Debussy.

(The Art of Noise, "The holy egoism of genius", from the CD "The seduction of Claude Debussy")

#20 stryper

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 09:19 AM


I really don't understand where the military became a sacred cow. I mean, it got a lot of flack in the Vietnam era. Then after the Gulf war it seems it did a 180. Can someone explain that to me?

Seems like it all changed after 911.


It was that way long before that. WWII basically made anyone who put on a uniform a hero. Before that, a life in the army was considered to be a waste.

In this regard, I think thinking should go back a few years.
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