TheBluegrassSkeptic Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 And it be considered wandering when he was less than 9 hours walk from a city..with a trade route running right through where he was "wandering"? I ask this because I have to flesh out the temptation of Christ for my book. The Bible makes it sound like a terrible distance away from all influence of mankind, and the area where he is supposed to have been wandering? Trade route right through the small area he was at. 9 hour walk from Bethany to Jericho, so even LESS of a walk for him. I mean, how in the hell do people buy into this tripe??? I'm trying to keep a semi realistic perspective on this, but I have a feeling any hallucinating Jesus did where he experienced temptation would have been within the nomadic camps and trade caravans that passed through there frequently. Maybe a bad batch of Qat? The Mountain he was atop of? Right outside Jericho. The temple? Take your pick between Jericho and Jerusalem, but either way, was not a stretch for him to get to. I'm thinking he was enslaved for 40 days and to separate himself from the torture? He imagined a whole nother experience to repress the memories. What say all of you? It never occurred to me how small a landscape this temptation took place in until now. Quite disturbing. I don't even think I could pass this off in my book without making him look like a total shyster and that is not my intention at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryG Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 I can't answer your question, but there's a related one I hope you'll be able to solve in your book. How is it possible for the devil to have tempted Jesus, when Jesus, being god incarnate, would have beyond any such temptation? Being omnicient, he'd have known since the beginning of time that the devil was going to try the temptation and known also that it was going to fail. Being god, he'd have also known that the devil had nothing to offer him. Being perfect, he'd never have felt temptation, etc. etc. etc. It makes about as much sense as praying to himself in the garden of Gethsemane. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBluegrassSkeptic Posted November 13, 2013 Author Share Posted November 13, 2013 I can't answer your question, but there's a related one I hope you'll be able to solve in your book. How is it possible for the devil to have tempted Jesus, when Jesus, being god incarnate, would have beyond any such temptation? Being omnicient, he'd have known since the beginning of time that the devil was going to try the temptation and known also that it was going to fail. Being god, he'd have also known that the devil had nothing to offer him. Being perfect, he'd never have felt temptation, etc. etc. etc. It makes about as much sense as praying to himself in the garden of Gethsemane. I've never seen Jesus AS God. So, it's a difference in doctrine that I reply here. My taught understanding that Jesus was an extension of God. That doesn't mean he is the same booger by any means. His temptation weren't really the emotional feeling the urge to give in kind of temptations. There was never a chance. The Devil's little visit was needed in order for Christ to fulfill where man had previously fucked up. Resisted the bread, so he made up for Eden. The whole worshiping Satan deal, makes up for the golden calf. The saving of angels from a fall? That would be miracle working for showing off. I am not really sure what that answers for. Still trying to figure that one out. **Edit** Forgot to explain why I have the view the character of Jesus is not directly God. See, he will do the things he has seen his father do. He will teach things his father has taught. He is the example to follow to God. He is not God, just an extension in earthly form. I see it as someone who has such a oneness with a particular belief/deity/alien that they embody in physical form all it represents. Kind of a direct satellite feed to the commander in chief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 I can't answer your question, but there's a related one I hope you'll be able to solve in your book. How is it possible for the devil to have tempted Jesus, when Jesus, being god incarnate, would have beyond any such temptation? Being omnicient, he'd have known since the beginning of time that the devil was going to try the temptation and known also that it was going to fail. Being god, he'd have also known that the devil had nothing to offer him. Being perfect, he'd never have felt temptation, etc. etc. etc. It makes about as much sense as praying to himself in the garden of Gethsemane. The synoptic gospels make far more sense if Jesus was an agent who works for God. Even in Paul's writing he constantly separates God from the son of God. Clearly Trinity came later. It's true that John makes claims that the son and father are one. But we don't know when John was written or when that passage was added. The whole thing had been rewritten and then edited and reedited to death. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBluegrassSkeptic Posted November 13, 2013 Author Share Posted November 13, 2013 Well, after yet another hour of digging around and researching the area, Jesus was right around the Roman road called the Ascent of Blood. Folks can't agree on what the reasoning is for the nomenclature, but there are histories of red colored geology formations around there AND they had an issue with bandits. I think I know where I will go with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xliar Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 And it be considered wandering when he was less than 9 hours walk from a city..with a trade route running right through where he was "wandering"? I ask this because I have to flesh out the temptation of Christ for my book. The Bible makes it sound like a terrible distance away from all influence of mankind, and the area where he is supposed to have been wandering? Trade route right through the small area he was at. 9 hour walk from Bethany to Jericho, so even LESS of a walk for him. I mean, how in the hell do people buy into this tripe??? I'm trying to keep a semi realistic perspective on this, but I have a feeling any hallucinating Jesus did where he experienced temptation would have been within the nomadic camps and trade caravans that passed through there frequently. Maybe a bad batch of Qat? The Mountain he was atop of? Right outside Jericho. The temple? Take your pick between Jericho and Jerusalem, but either way, was not a stretch for him to get to. I'm thinking he was enslaved for 40 days and to separate himself from the torture? He imagined a whole nother experience to repress the memories. What say all of you? It never occurred to me how small a landscape this temptation took place in until now. Quite disturbing. I don't even think I could pass this off in my book without making him look like a total shyster and that is not my intention at all. I kinda like the shyster angle, never really thought of him that way. Different. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBluegrassSkeptic Posted November 14, 2013 Author Share Posted November 14, 2013 Yeah, it is one way to think on it. What's even funnier, if you really start to think about it. How did the entire population of the freed children of Gawd wander around such a small place lost for so long too? I mean, there's this huge fucking gorge that runs through that area they were lost, so they had to stick to the upper plains, and to play devil's advocate, let's say they had run of the ENTIRE Judean desert/wilderness.... the entire expanse runs along side the distance of the Dead Sea.....that's only like THIRTY FIVE MILES long, and maybe 20 miles wide. Even if one were stuck traveling on foot, it isn't much of an effort to leave, and this was an entire population. Were they using a rock to gauge their location??? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 It could mean just walking/dallying without a destination. In another world so to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBluegrassSkeptic Posted November 14, 2013 Author Share Posted November 14, 2013 I always thought they said they were lost and that they needed leading out of the desert. I pity them. It's like being lost in a parking lot during a rainstorm, and you're too stupid to figure out how to go back into the store. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Yeah, it is one way to think on it. What's even funnier, if you really start to think about it. How did the entire population of the freed children of Gawd wander around such a small place lost for so long too? I mean, there's this huge fucking gorge that runs through that area they were lost, so they had to stick to the upper plains, and to play devil's advocate, let's say they had run of the ENTIRE Judean desert/wilderness.... the entire expanse runs along side the distance of the Dead Sea.....that's only like THIRTY FIVE MILES long, and maybe 20 miles wide. Even if one were stuck traveling on foot, it isn't much of an effort to leave, and this was an entire population. Were they using a rock to gauge their location??? If you look at the entire set of stories I believe that it says they wandered for two years and then stayed at one place (I want to say Kadesh Barneah (sp?) but I also don't want to check) for the remaining thirty-eight (which makes the whole wandering for forty years a bit of a misnomer). They originally are led about by the cloud/fire god/angel thing which means they aren't "lost" anymore than they are supposed to be lost but they aren't in control of where they are headed either. They just have a rather crappy guide who, as we discover, is leading them around until an entire generation of them die off (how rude!). Also, to the original question, it's rather easy to go around in circles in the desert if you're unfamiliar with where you are and how to get around. But, depending on the version of the story you choose to accept, this isn't even really a problem. The story has him enter the wilderness (the "spirit" drives him there which is a powerful thing you see). Face temptations. And then have angels care for him. There is no getting "lost" of any sort really. It's more of a spirit driven camping trip. It has specific tasks or goals built into it (ie. devil temptations and angel care) and appears to require forty days to complete. mwc 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBluegrassSkeptic Posted November 14, 2013 Author Share Posted November 14, 2013 Yeah, it is one way to think on it. What's even funnier, if you really start to think about it. How did the entire population of the freed children of Gawd wander around such a small place lost for so long too? I mean, there's this huge fucking gorge that runs through that area they were lost, so they had to stick to the upper plains, and to play devil's advocate, let's say they had run of the ENTIRE Judean desert/wilderness.... the entire expanse runs along side the distance of the Dead Sea.....that's only like THIRTY FIVE MILES long, and maybe 20 miles wide. Even if one were stuck traveling on foot, it isn't much of an effort to leave, and this was an entire population. Were they using a rock to gauge their location??? If you look at the entire set of stories I believe that it says they wandered for two years and then stayed at one place (I want to say Kadesh Barneah (sp?) but I also don't want to check) for the remaining thirty-eight (which makes the whole wandering for forty years a bit of a misnomer). They originally are led about by the cloud/fire god/angel thing which means they aren't "lost" anymore than they are supposed to be lost but they aren't in control of where they are headed either. They just have a rather crappy guide who, as we discover, is leading them around until an entire generation of them die off (how rude!). Also, to the original question, it's rather easy to go around in circles in the desert if you're unfamiliar with where you are and how to get around. But, depending on the version of the story you choose to accept, this isn't even really a problem. The story has him enter the wilderness (the "spirit" drives him there which is a powerful thing you see). Face temptations. And then have angels care for him. There is no getting "lost" of any sort really. It's more of a spirit driven camping trip. It has specific tasks or goals built into it (ie. devil temptations and angel care) and appears to require forty days to complete. mwc I see your point about the temptation. I just found even harder to swallow after realizing how small an area he was located in. He was more than likely very familiar with the area because he had to pass through there at least once a year since birth to go to the annual feasts. The whole thing just really stunk even more after realizing, geographically, how small of an area we are being told about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I see your point about the temptation. I just found even harder to swallow after realizing how small an area he was located in. He was more than likely very familiar with the area because he had to pass through there at least once a year since birth to go to the annual feasts. The whole thing just really stunk even more after realizing, geographically, how small of an area we are being told about. I'm not sure where this wilderness is exactly. It's not defined in the stories. Wilderness tended to just be the "bad" parts outside of towns/cities/etc. (ie. where the scrub, rocks, animals, bandits were). You really didn't have to do much traveling to get to the "wilderness" in this sense of the word but you had to be willing to go into this undesirable (especially for a solo traveler) type of location. You could look at some uses of "wilderness" as a type of undeveloped off-road situation. In this case he could have just sat in a ditch just away from the public not miles and miles away from everyone and everything. Both could be equally deadly especially back then (ie. an animal or criminal gets to you and you're dead since no one is coming to help). It's also questionable if people bothered to make the festivals each year or just once and awhile (traveling still took time and cost money just like today along with all the other hassles). mwc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExCBooster Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 Probably a nice literary metaphor, in the first place. Of course, when you're spiritually lost, or feeling that way in your life, it feels like wandering in a hostile environment. Which is where temptation comes into it. So, it's really flexible, if you need it to be, in terms of writing. On the other hand, taken literally, no it doesn't make much sense. The area then known as Judea, historically, was heavily populated, and a main artery of trade between two whole continents. It's not like the people who lived there didn't know about the dangers of wandering off into the wilderness. That would be about as insane as a modern family never telling kids not to play by the road, or other basic street safety. It's just something that's a part of your culture: look both ways before crossing the street; stay within sight of the caravan road. Frankly, there are a lot more impressive deserts in the world, and, even there, there are people who live on them. Like the Tuareg of Northwest Africa. The erg seas of the Sahara are a whole other beast, entirely. Or, even, the incredibly forbidding Atacama desert of South America. Basically, nothing but salt pans, as far as the eye can see... Wow. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xliar Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Yall are totaly ignoring the fact that Punk Rock bands lost in the desert are always needing a bass player. I bet Haysus hooked-up with one of them for a while and started doing some hot chic. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBluegrassSkeptic Posted November 16, 2013 Author Share Posted November 16, 2013 Yall are totaly ignoring the fact that Punk Rock bands lost in the desert are always needing a bass player. I bet Haysus hooked-up with one of them for a while and started doing some hot chic. I was thinking he got a hold of a bad batch of Qat.... No, not really. I've opted to combine the story of the good Samaritan and him getting beset by thieves on the Ascent of Blood. He's left for dead, beaten, and naked. His water skins taken. Starts hallucinating, or thinks he is having a vision, where he finds out about his "supernatural gifts" from some type of inspired Satan character. Samaritan will notice his ass on the road needing help after he's been passed up by a priest from Perea that remembers his blasphemous claims to savior status and a Levite who knows the local counsel is gunning for the prophet, but figures nature will deal with it and problem solved. The "angels" will be the Samaritan's daughters taking care of his wounds. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xliar Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Yall are totaly ignoring the fact that Punk Rock bands lost in the desert are always needing a bass player. I bet Haysus hooked-up with one of them for a while and started doing some hot chic. I was thinking he got a hold of a bad batch of Qat.... No, not really. I've opted to combine the story of the good Samaritan and him getting beset by thieves on the Ascent of Blood. He's left for dead, beaten, and naked. His water skins taken. Starts hallucinating, or thinks he is having a vision, where he finds out about his "supernatural gifts" from some type of inspired Satan character. Samaritan will notice his ass on the road needing help after he's been passed up by a priest from Perea that remembers his blasphemous claims to savior status and a Levite who knows the local counsel is gunning for the prophet, but figures nature will deal with it and problem solved. The "angels" will be the Samaritan's daughters taking care of his wounds. I wish Mathew Shepperd had been so lucky. By the way, reckon what the thieves made off with? Those dirty rats! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaitingInfinity Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 I can't answer your question, but there's a related one I hope you'll be able to solve in your book. How is it possible for the devil to have tempted Jesus, when Jesus, being god incarnate, would have beyond any such temptation? Being omnicient, he'd have known since the beginning of time that the devil was going to try the temptation and known also that it was going to fail. Being god, he'd have also known that the devil had nothing to offer him. Being perfect, he'd never have felt temptation, etc. etc. etc. It makes about as much sense as praying to himself in the garden of Gethsemane. Or as him shouting that God has forsaken him (also God). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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